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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:08 PM
Original message
Is China headed toward collapse?

The conventional wisdom in Washington and in most of the rest of the world is that the roaring Chinese economy is going to pull the global economy out of recession and back into growth. It’s China’s turn, the theory goes, as American consumers — who propelled the last global boom with their borrowing and spending ways — have begun to tighten their belts and increase savings rates.

The Chinese, with their unbridled capitalistic expansion propelled by a system they still refer to as “socialism with Chinese characteristics,” are still thriving, though, with annual gross domestic product growth of 8.9 percent in the third quarter and a domestic consumer market just starting to flex its enormous muscles.

That’s prompted some cheerleading from U.S. officials, who want to see those Chinese consumers begin to pick up the slack in the global economy — a theme President Barack Obama and his delegation are certain to bring up during next week’s visit to China.

“Purchases of U.S. consumers cannot be as dominant a driver of growth as they have been in the past,” Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said during a trip to Beijing this spring. “In China, ... growth that is sustainable will require a very substantial shift from external to domestic demand, from an investment and export-intensive growth to growth led by consumption.”

That’s one vision of the future.

But there’s a growing group of market professionals who see a different picture altogether. These self-styled China bears take the less popular view: that the much-vaunted Chinese economic miracle is nothing but a paper dragon. In fact, they argue that the Chinese have dangerously overheated their economy, building malls, luxury stores and infrastructure for which there is almost no demand, and that the entire system is teetering toward collapse.

A Chinese collapse, of course, would have profound effects on the United States, limiting China’s ability to buy U.S. debt and provoking unknown political changes inside the Chinese regime.

The China bears could be dismissed as a bunch of cranks and grumps except for one member of the group: hedge fund investor Jim Chanos.

Chanos, a billionaire, is the founder of the investment firm Kynikos Associates and a famous short seller — an investor who scrutinizes companies looking for hidden flaws and then bets against those firms in the market.

His most famous call came in 2001, when Chanos was one of the first to figure out that the accounting numbers presented to the public by Enron were pure fiction. Chanos began contacting Wall Street investment houses that were touting Enron’s stock. “We were struck by how many of them conceded that there was no way to analyze Enron but that investing in Enron was, instead, a ‘trust me’ story,” Chanos told a congressional committee in 2002.


Now, Chanos says he has found another “trust me” story: China. And he is moving to short the entire nation’s economy. Washington policymakers would do well to understand his argument, because if he’s right, the consequences will be felt here.

Chanos and the other bears point to several key pieces of evidence that China is heading for a crash.

First, they point to the enormous Chinese economic stimulus effort — with the government spending $900 billion to prop up a $4.3 trillion economy. “Yet China’s economy, for all the stimulus it has received in 11 months, is underperforming,” Gordon Chang, author of “The Coming Collapse of China,” wrote in Forbes at the end of October. “More important, it is unlikely that expansion was anywhere near the claimed 8.9 percent.”

Chang argues that inconsistencies in Chinese official statistics — like the surging numbers for car sales but flat statistics for gasoline consumption — indicate that the Chinese are simply cooking their books. He speculates that Chinese state-run companies are buying fleets of cars and simply storing them in giant parking lots in order to generate apparent growth.

Another data point cited by the bears: overcapacity. For example, the Chinese already consume more cement than the rest of the world combined, at 1.4 billion tons per year. But they have dramatically ramped up their ability to produce even more in recent years, leading to an estimated spare capacity of about 340 million tons, which, according to a report prepared earlier this year by Pivot Capital Management, is more than the consumption in the U.S., India and Japan combined.

This, Chanos and others argue, is happening in sector after sector in the Chinese economy. And that means the Chinese are in danger of producing huge quantities of goods and products that they will be unable to sell.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=DAB3DF2E-18FE-70B2-A8C736A21C10553A
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. The anectode about car sales not correlating with increased gas consumption
is very interesting. Everything else is pretty subjective.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. .
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Economists have often claimed that economic expansion here in the US
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 11:18 PM by DJ13
....would be unsustainable if it went above 3-4% per year (going by memory here).

Yet those same economists have often promoted China's expansion of 8-16% per year as some grand miracle of economics at work with no questioning of whether it was sustainable.

So which view from the same economists is correct?

Or maybe they just dont want our country (their country) to expand and result in increased jobs and wages since it would threaten the wellbeing of corporations that have relocated to China?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Nobody views 16% growth in China as sustainable.
However 3% "cap" in US is simply because US economy is very mature.

2/3 of Chinese population have no regular access to electricity or running water. China more resembles US economy at early part of industrial revolution with some newer gadgets. US economy grew by 10%-15% for decades no reason China can't do the same.

China growing at 8% isn't unrealistic or even hard to achieve. Now in 30-50 years as their economy, population, and infrastructure begin to more and more resemble the US (and other fully developed economies) the growth rate will slow.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh crap
I had no idea China was in overcapacity. With all the increased production of everything down there, I assumed there was a market for it.

I think part of the problem (in my non expert opinion) is the lack of any social net in China. Chinese workers save something like 25% of their incomes (compared to 1%ish in the US). That isn't a bad thing but I believe part of the reason they do it is the sporadic health and retirement situation in China. If China had universal health care and a universal pension system for the elderly, maybe consumer demand would go up.

On the plus side, I was worried more about a raw material shortage. If China has an oversupply, that means prices will be low.

Also, that article references a book written by Gordon Chang 'the coming collapse of China'.

http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Collapse-China-Gordon-Chang/dp/037550477X

The author predicted a collapse within 5 years of the book, and he wrote the book in 2001. So that has to be taken in consideration.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Kinda a weird dynamic
China has too high of a saving rates and US has too low of a savings rate.

The current savings boom in US notwithstanding the majority of Americans have negative networth from consumer debt.

US saving rates was circle the drain at around 3% and China around 25%. Both countries would be more prosperous with a savings rate of 10%.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. Well, without the $900 billion stimulus in the $4,300 billion economy
there may very well have been a collapse.

Free market types claim that command economies, which China's is in part, will allocate resources inefficiently. China's building of considerable excess capacity in concrete production may be a symptom. Unless China rebounds to the extent that it needs that capacity in the 5-10 year time horizon (or less), those cement plants may turn out to be white elephants.

You probably are familiar with Japan's effort to get itself out of the economic doldrums in the '90s by infrastructure spending. The spending did more than bring things up to a point where they filled the current needs and those going into the medium-ish future according to some commentators. Japan may have built far too many equivalents of bridges to nowhere, which to a certain extent is a waste of capital. Japan, of course, is still rather moribund economically.

Perhaps China will end up with a slight case of the Japanese economic disease.
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. No.
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. What's that saying, "If China catches a cold the US catches pneumonia"? hmmm that's not right is it?
4 years ago the arrogant neocons were so sure the Chinese couldn't affect us. Oh, no!
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
7. OMG!!! Walmart will be completely empty of goods nt
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. They are making a bet on themselves.
Edited on Thu Nov-12-09 01:07 AM by pa28
Chinese capitalists, presumably in line with government plans have built excess capacity into their system. The bet, I'm guessing, is that they can move a large segment of their rural and poor population quickly into the consumer class. They've got empty office buildings, empty malls and huge oversupply of steel with no place to go.

From the sounds of it their stimulus and lending programs are fueling a new bubble. Presumably they'll keep it going given the Government commitment to 8%+ growth. They've certainly got the resources to do that if they want to.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. There is Enormous Pressure for Movement into the Cities
You are required to have a job before moving to a major city, and there is a huge amount of backed-up demand.

The Chinese government may be looking at that as one indication of future growth. Salaries and production are much higher in cities, and China's growth has partly been fueled by urbanization.

Of course, that depends on exports staying strong, which depends on the world economy successfully turning around.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
11. China will collapse just AFTER we collapse.
When China invested in risky investments, they should have expected to be burned.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. Japan was the big threat and it eventually imploded
I think wages in China will eventually get to high for Walmart and they will find cheaper suppliers in Africa. The Capitalist system is all about exploiting the lowest price labor market.
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. China will cause the final collapse of the United States...
whe they finally "float" the yuan. The USA will then enter a hyperinflationary depression and collapse.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. you are forgetting one thing
that if china floats the yuan...it will appreciate making their precious exports not as cheap as they once were. That is not a good thing, especially for an economy which is an export based economy

China doesnt float the yuan because they just "choose" not to; they don't float it because its the only way they can support their fast pace growth.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. Ha! The Chinese buying American? Ha!
and the monkeys that fly from my butt will turn into bluebirds who awaken me each sunny morn
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blue97keet Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. How much can Chinese consumers buy from us if we don't make anything>
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. on the contrary
we still produce 1/4 of the world's manufactured goods....more than chinas 1/6

The reason people have this belief is that most of the little things in their life happen to be made from china....cheap gadgets and such....but if you look at the more expensive consumer and industrial goods, you will see that much of it is made in the USA. This includes kitchen appliances such as refridgerators, dish washers. Don't forget about commercial airplanes and heavy farm equipment
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Kitchen appliance production keeps moving south to Mexico.
The Chinese have demanded a Boeing factory in China.

Many of China's farms are too small to make U.S. scale heavy farm equipment practical or profitable.

What's left?
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Locomotives. Gas Turbines. Heavy mining equipment.
Electrical switching equipment. Excavators and earth-movers. Chemicals. Machine tools. Computers...

The list is pretty long, actually.

Gets even longer when foodstuffs are included.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. yes, let them spend billions buying their own cheap crap
that will pull us right out. :rofl:
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. The idea that China will some day soon be the consumer engine
that drives the world economy is just ridiculous.

"China’s per capita income in 2008 was equivalent to $3,180.

If China’s average national income continues to rise at an annual rate of 8%, the country’s per capita income will reach $8,500 by 2020 and will touch the $20,000 mark by 2030."

http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/china/income.html

Now, compare that to a low ball number I got off the NY Times: The average US wage in 2006 was $46,996."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/business/economy/26income.html?_r=1

So to reach parity with US wages (assuming US wages do not increase) it will take China about 40 years, probably to be more realistic, what with the 2nd Republicon Great Depression and all, it will more likely take a good 50 years.

Yea, if nothing goes wrong and China has no revolution in about 50 years they will be the consumer engine that derives the world economy, maybe.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Of course the Yuan is artificially devalued.
Pegged at around Y7 = $1 when it should be floated somewhere around Y2 = $1.

This artificially depresses Chinese wages by a factor of about 300%.

So re calculate your numbers on a properly value Yuan.

Somewhere around per capita income of $10K today and $25K by 2020.

Also China doesn't need the highest per capita income to be a large consumer base. They are roughly 5x the size of US economy. If each Chinese consumer spends a small amount of money (say discrecionary income of about 20% of US consumer) it would quickly make them the largest consumer base.

Bad news is Chinese govt is artificially holding the Yuan value down because it makes Chinese exports cheaper although it does deprive Chinese citizens of a living wage and makes (as you illustrate) a rising Chinese consumer class very hard to achieve.
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