Governor Dean's Police State of Vermont

[Nicholas_J]

Governor Dean's Police State of Vermont
Dean's subversion of the bill of rights

In a 1997 Vt News Bureau interview, Dean admitted his desire to appoint judges willing to subvert the bill of rights. Now the fallout from Dean's appointments are before the US 2nd Circuit at Foley Square, NYC in two outrageous cases. Docket #s 03-7036, 02-6150, 02-6199, 02-6201 One case is being prosecuted by Washington, DC first amendment attorney Robert Corn-Revere against two of Dean's judges for their banishment of a Vermont "citizen-reporter" for life from all state courthouses because he criticized one of Dean's judicial appointees. The other case features Dean's judges violating Double Jeopardy, First Amendment, State law and the State constitution. See Docket No. 99-445 (Vt. Dec. 13, 2000), aff’g, Docket No. 167-1-99 WmCr (Windham D. Ct. Aug. 30, 1999) Both cases have been briefed before the Manhattan Court awaiting oral argument. Also filing a brief in federal court against Dean's appointees is the Thomas Jefferson Center For The Protection of Freedom of Expression.

Below are links regarding Dean's voicing his problem with the Bill of Rights. He constantly complains about "legal technicalities" (i.e. the Bill of Rights) as he did in the June 22 meet the press interview.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/government.shtml
http://www.txtriangle.com/archive/1049/coverstory.htm



http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268781.shtml

[Pillowbiter]

1. mmm, hmmm

no vicious infighting going on here, is there?

PB

[LuminousX]

2. LOL

How many times is this going to get posted?

Police State in Vermont... any cases which demonstrate how people's civil rights were violated under Dean? Any lawsuits filed against Vermont in Federal courts because of Dean's 'fascist hand of justice'?

I think if this gets posted one more time it should be locked as a dupe.

[Ripley]

3. The World According to Garp, oops, I mean Hartmann."

I guess I'm branded a WACKO, Hitler-brainwashed Punk ass because I don't walk lockstep with every writer most DUers "respect." Oh silly me, I have an opinion of my own. Wow, Dean is not Perfect Presidential material. Only Kerry is.

The tactics of folks has really slid lately, can't imagine this place in 6 months.

[SGrande]

4. Kerry is QUITE flawed

He is arrogant and to smart for his own good, and comes off like that.

He is wrong on many issues like NAFTA and the death penalty, imho.

The POINT is not the flaws of the candidates. I like Dean. I was a dean supporter. It was his SUPPORTERS that drove me from his campaign. I can only be insulted and berated so much before i say "fuck it" and walk away from a candidate.

[Nicholas_J]

7. I was a Dean supporter From September to January 2003

Then I got to directly ask ihim aa questtion and look in his eyes as he anwered.

I then knew I was speaking to a liar.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

12. LOL

:hurts:

[valphoosier]

16. Explain.

What was the question and what was the answer?

[Nicholas_J]

32. THe question was about the October Resolution

The answer I will keep to myself.

[MercutioATC]

46. If it was the turning point for you, why not explain it to everybody?

What was the question and what about his answer rubbed you the wrong way?

You post so much anti-Dean material here, I'd think you'd jump at the chance to relate an event that, to you at least, proved Dean to be such a liar.

[Nicholas_J]

56. Because

You already beleive what Dean wants you to, even though he doesnt beleive it.

[ProfessorPlum]

57. Yeah!

So there!

[MercutioATC]

59. That's your final answer???

You'll post anti-Dean threads ad nauseum. Why do you bother if I'm just believing Dean's "lies" regardless of what you say?

[ProfessorPlum]

62. I believe

it is for the sheer, unadulterated pleasure of it.

Pissing us off is just icing on the cake.

[Nicholas_J]

87. Yup

I was just about to tell, and decided not to.....

[RevolutionStartsNow]

96. Oh, man,

Plum, look what you did! Now we are going to have to wait for the Pay-per-View special.

[ProfessorPlum]

97. I know, I F-d it up but good.

How do you keep a Moran in suspense? I'll tell you in the fall . . .

edit: I didn't mean you were are moran :)

[RevolutionStartsNow]

98. Do you think there will be an official announcement?

With 10,000 deprogrammed Deanies behind him? Like an Infomercial?

[Nicholas_J]

77. Because

I've got LONG l;ists of people who have decided not to support Dean becasue of the threads. Notice also, the very large number of New PRO-KERRY people. Make the connection.

[ProfessorPlum]

80. It's kind of delusional to think that the people

who read these threads, on this website, in this particular forum, make up any significant fraction of the population whatsoever. It's sad to think that all of one's hard work, smearing a particular candidate, will really have no effect on the votes.

For while one is working to smear one's favorite target, so many other people are out raising money, spreading the good word, etc. And one will only have planted a lie in a very small number of (gullible) people's heads.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

84. Indeed

and some of his more outrageous posts even cause us to give more money to Dean!

But I love the contention that his threads are turning people away from Dean and toward Kerry. We didn't need those guys anyway. Either of them.

[MercutioATC]

86. "Either of them"...VERY funny !

:evilgrin:

[MercutioATC]

83. Your silence is causing a major groundswell of support for Kerry?

Dude, if you have something to say, just say it...

[Nicholas_J]

85. I actually dont care what you think

But the pro Kerry threads on DU are increasing daily, a large number of the people startintg them are new to DU.

We are actively seeking out and converting those who support Dean all over the Internet, as well providing information to those who are undecided about his record as governor. You would be surprised how easy it is to get minorities to dislike Dean after reading about how he cut funding for public defenders. His support of the death penalty is one of the easier ways to turn minorities thinking of Dean to convert to either Kerry or Kucinich, I dont care which as long as it is not Dean.

So far. I and about 40 other people now have 10,000 people who were supporting Dean to change their minds. I hav'nt got the highest rate of converts. We have to do a lot of deprogramming, but have adopted the same methods used by deprogrammers for those who were involved with cults.

It is actually quite a satisfying avoction.

[ProfessorPlum]

88. How many other avoctions do you have?

I'll bet you can back up that 10,000 number, too, with the same sterling proof you back everything else up with.

I'm glad people are fired up about Kerry -that's excellent. As long as we all agree to stand by the nominee, we'll be in great shape.

Haven't found anything to Drink to in your post, though . . .

[RevolutionStartsNow]

94. I have to drink

just to stop laughing.

Then I might go update the thread showing Dean's meetup numbers. Looks like 67811 at the moment. Damn coulda been 77811.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

89. hahahahahahahahahahaha

when's the mothership coming? I am laughing my ass off.

Nic_J is deprogramming Deanies!!

[ProfessorPlum]

90. So

There.

[MercutioATC]

91. I'm declaring THIS post a WINNER for unabashed B.S.!

"So far. I and about 40 other people now have 10,000 people who were supporting Dean to change their minds."

Words can't do this statement justice. I know I'm making up rules on the fly here, but it's MY money and MY liver.

Another sip of this nice cabernet and...

ANOTHER dollar to Gov. Dean!

[ProfessorPlum]

93. Gee, there are so many to choose from . . .

.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

65. LOL Never stopped you before...

And thanks again for insinuating that Dean supporters are all mind-controlled. This is a weak swipe that the Repub pundits use all the time to dismiss us. Why not just admit that some of us think for ourselves and still like Dean?

[stickdog]

18. Funny.

We don't have to look into your eyes.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

23. Funniest thing I've read all day

...but I still think he stole your prom date, or kicked your dog, or ran over your grandma...

[CWebster]

28. Lawdy

He wasn't the messiah? No blinding revelation shinning from his inner pure essence? Hey, you'd be fortunate if Kerry even acknowledged you as his supporter.

It's that darn Catholic upbringing I tell you, indoctrinated to believe that guilt is always hovering...One time Sister found a beutiful cupcake thrown in the trash--chocolate with a white squiggle on the top and creme inside. She made us sit there until the guilty party confessed. I never had deserts like that in my lunch, but after a certain amount of time passed, I started to wonder if it was me. After a little while more I was convinced that I had done it. I was 5 years old. For years I felt guilty--for no damn reason, but did other people see it too--the way I felt? Who knows what you believe you saw.

[ProfessorPlum]

43. Why would you EVER support someone with such a horrible

record? For four months you supported him and didn't bother to look up anything about him? Look at the piles and piles of horrible information you constantly serve up about him - you supported him for 120 days in spite of all of that? What does that say about your judgement?

:)

Edited to add winky-face. I realize my sarcastic tone may not come through and I'll end up sounding like an idiot, like so many others.

[Nazgul35]

52. I was a Kerry supporter until...

the Democratic tooth fairy came down, circled my head three times while riciting the preamble of the Constitution, taped my head with her wand and said vote for Dean....

Come on....I was a Dean supporter until those mean Dean people made me ascared and I went runnin to that nice ol senator Kerry....cause there are no mean people there....

Support a candidate based on the candidate....(FYI: have you ever really looked very closely at some of the people who support democrats over the years...there are wack-a-nuts everywhere)...

To me it just seems like a convient sound bite to try and make a very weak point....tell me something about your guy....

or better yet, go work for your candidate instead of annoying all of us with these petty little rants that are nothing more then attempts to get a little thrill by seeing your names in lights, bouyed by threads that are for the sole purpose of insighting flames....

My advice to everyone is simply ingore the simpletons....everyone knows who they are in every camp....or better yet, donate to the candidate of your choice everytime one of these pinheads posts one of these stupid threads...and tell them how much!

I'm off to donate $20 to Howard Dean.....thanks Nichoals_J!!!!

[DianeK]

5. ripley..

i think what we are seeing is the white knuckled panic of the desperate republicans

[Ripley]

9. I'd have to agree with you there DianeK!

The more schizophrenic the news is the more you can see them crumbling.

CNN: The highly popular President Bush goes on vacation for a well-deserved rest.

Top story on Internet news: Feds warn al-queda type hijacking probable next month.

[indigo32]

11. "can't even imagine this place in 6 months"

yup I'll be needing frequent sanity breaks.

[Jim Sagle]

6. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[Nicholas_J]

8. If these were Bush nominees

Dean supporters would be screaming their heads off that the DLC dems were letting Bush get away with murder.

Sorry, with Deans choices, there are probably dozens of innocent people sitting in jail in Vermont.

[Upfront]

13. Hey Nick

You need a new song . Everyone knows the lyrics to this one, and were finding it boring.

[Nicholas_J]

30. It needs to be sung

I until all those who are not mindless drones listening to Deans madison avenue campaign can here it.

Did Dean or did dean not cutr funding to defend poor defendants, prevent money form being available to assist mentally ill defendents or not.

Then talk about the patriot act again.

Sorry, there is less and les to distinguishe Dean from Bush. Its just that you are listening to Howard Headroom, and not looking at what has gonme on behind the scenes. I feel sorry that you are so easily misled.

[stickdog]

19. Who are they?

Using your "arguments" I'll say that Kerry's support for the Patriot Act has "probably" killed hundreds and jailed thousands.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. And that little "thingy" over in Iraq.....

My logic professor is rolling over in his grave. (Or he's still teaching idiots like me if he's not dead)

[Gringo]

10. Wasn't this smear posted before?

ZZZZZZZZZZZ.........

[genius]

14. Excellent points

You notice how the Dean people try to twist everything to get away from the fact that Dean is to the right of Reagan in too many of his positions.

[poskonig]

15. Is Team Kerry trying to *bore* their way to victory?

The candidate who voted for the Patriot Act has supporters accusing others of wanting to 'destroy the Bill of Rights'. Taking quotes out of context is boring and lame. What a surprise, that sounds just like Kerry. :boring:

[quinnox]

17. Very troubling

Any Democrat should examine Dean's actions such as this one closely, and determine if these are the kinds of policies they agree with.

[Nicholas_J]

20. That is the problem

Deanb suppoorters must keep these indications of who Dean really is quiet. They must attack them, they cannot possible make logic out of Deans attacks on the Partiot act and his actions as governor.

It does not matter, everything seen here on DU today, will become front page news as the nominations near.

It will become ore important to know who they are voting for, Not the talking head speaking.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

22. Oh please

Spare us your condescending b.s. Of course every candidates has their "me toos" and Dean, like Kerry and the rest, probably has some supporters who don't know who he is, but there are plenty of us who KNOW who he is and still like him.

Oh sorry, I haven't looked in his eyes and seen THE DEVIL! LOL.

[Nicholas_J]

29. Notice

When a serious look at Dean record occurs, Dean supporters start joking about it and minimizing what he has done, but basically, Deans kid didnt have to wait months for a public defender. I bet daddy opened his wallet and hired a real nice lawyer.

When they start joking, they are scared.

Dont forget, if that drunk driver doesnt have the money to make bail he is going to sit for 45 days(30 business days) in jail before they have to bring him before a judge or release him (law requireing speedy trial).

The more come out, the more Dean more closely resembles Bush himself. They are afraid of that, can never come up with cogent, or reasonable arguments about it. This has little to do with sdrunk drivers, but with people with life sentences, who may not get a fair trial, becasue they have public defenderswho'se caseloads have been quadrupled by Deans decisions. And certainly, the minority vote will swing even further away from Dean a this becomes known.Thats the problem with Dena supporters like this. They are pretty much mindless drones, supporting someone who blatheringly tells them whatever they wish to hear. I am willing to bet that the two who posted at the bottom are younger than 25.

Sorry, Dean has created a system in which the rich get out of jail, and the poor just have to wait there until a public defender can get to them.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

34. Nah...

but the more we tease and discount what you say, the more outrageous things you say. Like "If anyone's to blame for this war, it's Dean".

Or "I looked into his eyes and knew he was a liar".

There's no point in trying to have a coherant discussion with you about Dean, because you are so obviously over the top biased against him.

And by the way, I'm 36 and not a mindless drone, thank you very much. Not sure why you can't accept that some people see things different than you. Dean may not be your cup of tea but he's not evil, he's not Bush, get a grip.

[Nicholas_J]

44. Then find some reasonable justifications

For the things Dena has done. He has reied to cut programs to assist the blind, handicapped, elderly etcetera, rather than slighly raise taxes on the rich. SLIGHTLY.

His last budget contained MASSIVE cuts to those who were below poverty level, in order to maintain medical programs for children in families at 300 pervent over the poverty level (this is under consideration in federal courts as a discriminatory practice).

HE massively cut legal aid to the poor, while massively increasing funds to prosecutors, which is what is in federal courts now.

I massively am against George Bush beause he does the EXACT SAME THINGS.

Again, all you guys can come up with is personal opinions about the situation, but no justifications for screw the poor and favor the rich, which was how Dean played it all the way as governor.

YOu cannot change the fat that it was DEMOCRATS who had to fight him balancing the budget on the backs of the poor and middle class ewhile also creating tax cuts that favored the rich.

All you guys ever do is say it didnt happen, regardless, of how many articles from Vermont papers, how many quotes from Vermont Democrats are given. THe entire democratic arm of the Vermont Legislature was wrong, and Howard Dean right. Seems a bit odd.

The only praise for Dean you guys can come up with coming out of Vermont is from the Republican GOvernor and his assistant head of the Treasury...

What proof is their in Deans record that you can provide that he will reverse tax cuts, when all he ever did was give them.

Yes a coherent discussion is not possible, when someone puts up a number of artticles that are negative about Dean abd all Dean supporters can do is make personal attacks against the person posting them

Come up with real arguments, not personal opinion. The problem is not that cohjerent discissions are not possible, but that you and other Dean supporters cannot come up with rational reasons for Deans behavior and decisions that are not mere personal opinion.

IU poseted the articles above, Someon asked who the Dena appountees were, I searched for it...

But not one ofyou has been able to come up with a coherant, concise, legal counterpoint to the original post.

It doesnt matter if it comes from a BLOG, off the front page of a Vermont Newpaper, or te Washington Post, if it is not posotive about Dean, it is attack time. SO the lack of coheerence is on the part of Deans supporters and not me.

I posted it, and waited, knowing full well that Dean supporters would simply attack and make up ANY reason to support Deans obviously behavior, even though a FEDERAL JUDGE, ordered a cease and desist motion against the Dean appointees.

Sorry, you guys cannot persuade, because you cannot come up with intelligent arguments, just invenctive.
I have posted articles and not even gone back to look at them simply becasue I know that 95 percent of the responses would be the typical Deaniebopper idiocy. THey are supporting a made up character and havnt the faintest idea of why other than the fact they lkike what he is saying. They cannot find one thing in his political record that indicated he ever took a stance similar to the stance he is running under now. Nor can you.

[ProfessorPlum]

49. It's that God-damned "Dena" again.

Something has to be done about that beyotch.

[unfrigginreal]

21. More Bullshit!

I'll take a guy that appoints judges that apply "common sense" over "legal technicalities" as long as I have faith in the judgement of the guy doing the appointing. What the hell do you folks think that the frigging GOP is doing NOW with judicial appointments. There comes a point in time that you have to fight fire with fire.

I'll take that guy EVERYDAY OF THE WEEK over some moron that plays politics over sending our troops to war!

[Nicholas_J]

31. sorry

Deans selections would not have cases against them in FEDERAL courts unless they had broken some serious constitutional laws.

So come on admit it. What you really want is George Bush who happens to be running for the democratic party.

That stale old common sense judge line comes stright out of the Dirty Harry movies. With over a hundred people who were sitting inocent on Death row recently released becasue they got the bum's rush by governors like Dean was,and their so called common sense judges, shows that the line about common sense judges is just old republican bullshit you are trying to pass off to make your boy look smart, rather than the cold asshole he is.

[Nicholas_J]

45. Dean has appointed

The same kind of judges Bush is trying to appoint now.

[ProfessorPlum]

47. You mean the kind that wear black robes?

Your accusations are getting wilder and wilder. I don't think there is anyone in the state of Vermont as evil as some of Bush's currently filibustered nominees.

Ok, I'll bite - to whom are you refering? Please give names, links to credible descriptions of their questionable actions, and the Bush nominee you are comparing them to. Extra credit if you can do it in your next post. GO!

[Nicholas_J]

54. One case, the judges are listed below

The judges didnt like some bumperstickers on a citizens car that were negative about them, so they banned him from the courtrooms for life.

Federal court raps Vermont judges for violating protester's free-speech rights


Judge J. Garvan Murtha of the U.S. District Court for Vermont issued a preliminary injunction on Feb. 27 barring law enforcement personnel from acting on the no-trespass orders, which were issued against

Huminski by Nancy Corsones and state Judge Patricia Zimmerman.

The judges were Corsones and Zimmerman, the U.S. district barred the decisions of these Dean appointees.

They banned Scott Huminski from acting as a "Citizen Reporter: from their courts for having stickers on his van that said negative things about them that they didnt like.

http://www.nyjail4judges.org/inside/emails/2002/03-19-02freespeechrights.htm

[ProfessorPlum]

58. Sorry (that's your favorite subject line, right?)

you lose. First, provide evidence that Dean appointed this judge. I'm too lazy to look it up myself, and since it is your argument, you prove it. Second, the links in the article are not to any credible newspaper or news source, they all come from one website. Please find a link to this story from at least two local newspapers. (It looks like the Rutland Herald is a good place for you to start). Third, you are comparing banning someone from court property to drastically altering the jail time for cross-burning (or any other Bush nominee atrocity)? Fourth, you didn't say which of Bush's nominees you were comparing this judge to.

Also, it would help your case if you could show that Dean supported the judge's actions.

Try again. GO!

edit for spelling

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

71. ****crickets****

[ProfessorPlum]

73. LOL

Now, now - it might take a couple of minutes for him to get all his lie - I mean arguments - straight.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

74. But FYI

be suspicious if every link is to something related to Scott Huminski. I think he hates Dean almost as much as Nic_J -- he's posted that "Governor Dean's Police State" nonsense all over the web.

(no, I am not advocating squelshing Mr. Huminski's free speech. I dig bumper stickers. But leaping from this case into "Dean=Bush" is just silly.)

[ProfessorPlum]

75. I thought that article was a bit self-referential

'Mr. Huminski, a well-known advocate for all that is good and proper . . . ' Thanks for the tip off :)

[Nicholas_J]

79. Federal courts agreed with him:

A self-described citizen-reporter, Huminski was ejected from the Rutland County District Courthouse in May 1999 after displaying posters critical of Corsones on the side of his van. One sign read "Judge Corsones: Butcher of the Constitution" and listed five ways Huminski thought Corsones had violated the Constitution.

Shortly after parking in the courthouse lot, Huminski was approached by sheriff's deputies, who ordered him to remove the placards. But Huminski refused, citing his free-expression rights.

He then entered the courthouse to take notes on the proceedings for a report he planned to write. However, he was soon escorted out of the courtroom by law enforcement officials and served with two notices of trespass, signed by Corsones.

Later that month, Huminski was served with a notice of trespass signed by Zimmerman.

Murtha wrote that by issuing the no-trespass orders, the judges "specifically and unjustifiably retaliated against Huminski because he had exercised his constitutional right to free speech."

http://www.nyjail4judges.org/inside/emails/2002/03-19-02freespeechrights.htm

Thats one case...

There is another double jeopardy case.

[ProfessorPlum]

81. Well "Whoopie-die-doooo" for Mr. Huminski

you still haven't backed up your claim as I've asked you too. Get crackin', N_J! I don't have all night!

[ProfessorPlum]

72. Oh come come N_J, surely you can back up your own claims?

Don't fail me now!!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

92. Perhaps he's reading this and is too busy to respond:

[ProfessorPlum]

95. Bravo!

you are too much.

[LuminousX]

24. Can Someone Name the Judges

Dean appointed and what cases they ruled on that stomped all over civil rights? Can someone direct me to the ACLU actions in Vermont regarding flagrant, nay, fascist violation of the people's civil rights?

[Nicholas_J]

25. The links

TAke you to the cases and the judges being charged. Or look up the cases on Find-Law

In a 1997 Vt News Bureau interview, Dean admitted his desire to appoint judges willing to subvert the bill of rights. Now the fallout from Dean's appointments are before the US 2nd Circuit at Foley Square, NYC in two outrageous cases. Docket #s 03-7036, 02-6150, 02-6199, 02-6201 One case is being prosecuted by Washington, DC first amendment attorney Robert Corn-Revere against two of Dean's judges for their banishment of a Vermont "citizen-reporter" for life from all state courthouses because he criticized one of Dean's judicial appointees. The other case features Dean's judges violating Double Jeopardy, First Amendment, State law and the State constitution. See Docket No. 99-445 (Vt. Dec. 13, 2000), aff’g, Docket No. 167-1-99 WmCr (Windham D. Ct. Aug. 30, 1999) Both cases have been briefed before the Manhattan Court awaiting oral argument. Also filing a brief in federal court against Dean's appointees is the Thomas Jefferson Center For The Protection of Freedom of Expression.

The cases will name the judges...

But it is interesting that:

Criminal sentences doubled during Dean's tenure as a result of his appointments. I wonder how many of those serving these inflated sentences were also subjugated to constitutional deprivations at the hands of Dean's Judicial appointees leading to their convictions? How many of those serving inflated sentences were prejudiced by Deans' subversion of the public defender system mandated by the 6th amendment?

http://www.command-post.org/oped/oped_pda.html

Deans decisions to favor funding prosecution over funding legal defense clearly creates a situation in which there is one set of laws for the rich, and another set of laws for the poor.

Again, there is clearly a disconnect between what Dean did as Governor, and the things he campaigns on.

No matter how you try to spin it. Providing large funds for the police and prosecutors and much less to provide defense attorneys is not justice, or unequal justice.

I certainy hope that Dean has not paid for his SON's attorney, and makes him take a public defender.

[uhhuh]

40. I'm an Undecided Dem

In a 1997 Vt News Bureau interview, Dean admitted his desire to appoint judges willing to subvert the bill of rights.

I'd like a link to this.

Also, The comments Dean made about there possibly being a debate about civil rights was made 3 days after 9/11. The guy from the ACLU that scolded him about it even admitted in the article that Dean may have let his emotions get the better of him.

As far as your source link, it looks like an AIPAC-DLC discussion blog. You got anything else.
I'm leaning Kucinich, then Dean, then Kerry, but I would kind of like ol' Al to get the job he was hired for.

If Kerry can be off the hook for his war vote with an explanation that he believed we were threatened, and was misled, I think Dean should be given a break since the comments cited were right after 9/11 and he said it was unlikely that the Bill of Rights would be threatened.
Kerry voted for a direct threat to the Bill of Rights, and I have yet to see a good explanation of why or a removal of support for it from him. If you have one, I would be very interested to see it. I don't hate the guy, just like I don't hate Dean based on what I've seen written here.

Overall, I like Kerry. I appreciate his efforts in investigating BCCI and for denouncing the chimp lately. Good stuff. I would like more positives about the candidates all around. I don't know how anybody here cannot see that all the hardcore supporters of candidates are really nasty to supporters of the other candidates. It's good to get fired up in support of your guy, but in every pro-Dean thread, there are legitimate and illegitimate attacks on him and the same can be said for pro-kerry threads and others.

Dean's not a saint? No kidding. Kerry's not unblemished either. Both these guys have probably done a lot of things in their lives that would make me not want to sit down and "have a beer" with them. That is not how I'm going to decide how to select a president.

There are threads about how evil Dean is, and there are threads about how evil Kerry is, but what seems to be happening more and more are threads about how evil their supporters are. That's wrong!

We are all Dems. We all want what's best for ourselves and our country. We don't agree about who is right to lead us, that's all. I don't have an answer for that yet myself. My concern is, after one of our candidates is elected(I hope,I hope, I hope), how are we going to be able to get past the anger and hostility that is being promoted now?
Are the victors in the end going to say " I know we called you Brownshirts, or I know we said your candidate was a warmogering fascist, or was unelectable, but we won so, we'll be nice now."? How are we going to get the unity back that we had when the only people we directed our anger at were the BFEE? This is painful to watch and hard to stay out of. I have even succombed to this anger from time to time.
All the candidates(except maybe Lieberman) want the chimp out. Isn't that a good thing?

Afterthought: To Lieberman supporters. I am not big on your guy right now, but I know he has strong liberal credentials. I know he recently spoke agaist the chimp about the Cuba thing, so I could even change my mind on his candidacy too. I'll give any Dem a listen, and a vote if he's the candidate. ( Maybe not LaRouche)

[LuminousX]

48. The Next Press Conference

email the press, get them to ask these questions of Dean. This is troubling information, yet, as I said previously, it certainly didn't stop the people of Vermont from electing him a few times.

[ProfessorPlum]

50. In fact,

at every Dean meetup I go to, I've met people who were from Vermont and loved Dean as their governor, and fully support his run for President. I realize it is a small, biased portion of the Vermont electorate, but many one guy I talked to was a vegan and extremely progressive and had nothing but good things to say about Dean. Seek out more information from Vermonters - they know his record, I say.

[Nicholas_J]

35. They were

Federal court raps Vermont judges for violating protester's free-speech rights


Judge J. Garvan Murtha of the U.S. District Court for Vermont issued a preliminary injunction on Feb. 27 barring law enforcement personnel from acting on the no-trespass orders, which were issued against

Huminski by Nancy Corsones and state Judge Patricia Zimmerman.

Thje judges were Corsones and Zimmerman, the U.S. district barred the decisions of these Dean appointees.

They banned Scott Huminski from acting as a "Citizend Reporter: from their courts for having stickers on his van that said negative things about them that they didnt like.

http://www.nyjail4judges.org/inside/emails/2002/03-19-02freespeechrights.htm

Thats one case against Dean appointments.

I will search down the other two as soon as possible.

One of theother cases seem to be more serious, subverting the judicial nomination process.

The other a case in which double jeopardy is involved, trying a person twice for the same crime.

[CWebster]

26. Police state of Vermont....lol

Keep a cabin up there empty and unlocked for most of the year. I could swim naked in the pond all day and drink wine with the lesbians down the road all night and carry a gun everywhere, and no one would think it was that out of the ordinary. Oh yeah, wait, I understand they cracked down on drunk driving...you're right.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

27. Cracked down on drunk driving?

Damn that Dean! Just proves he's a hypocrite, cause I read an article where he once said he was FOR drunk driving! And I heard he cut benefits for drunk drivers and gave the money to his friends at Walmart! :eyes:

edit: fixed smiley thing.

[Nicholas_J]

33. Actually

It is one of the most common things governors do to raise funds.

You see, for every day they keep somone in jail, they get 364 dollars from the federal government (the one thing bush didnt cut). If they are too poor to raise bail, they wait, If they had five dollars of pot, they wait.And the fewer public defenders available, the longer they wait.

Also Dean increased finds to prisons by 150 percent and to the state university system by 7 percent.

Sorry, you guys keep trying to make Denas decisions look wise, when they are simply for the rich ,and against the poor.

All of his decisions as governor leaned that way.

You guys can come up with is bullshit opinion, but cannot come up with legitimate posts from legitimate sources that support Deans decisions. And that is the song about Dean that needs to be sung the loudest.
The desperation is on your side, you cannot come up with any legitimate reasons for Deans actions, and why if hisa desiciobs were legitimate, there are cases against his judicial selections being tried before federal courts.

Instead of raising taxes on the rich, Dean decided to start arresting as many people as possible to get those federal bucks.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

36. You know...

If Dean had done the opposite, you would claim that he was against victims' rights and that he supported criminals. Yawn.

"Dean decided to start arresting as many people as possible..." Is that what he told you? Was that after he looked into your eyes or before?

[Nicholas_J]

41. Sorry

I am a firm supprter of the bill of rights and especially the right to a fair trial. Dena has subverted that. Dean has said the bill of rights allows people to get out on technicalities. Again, verty Republican language coming out of Deans mouth. Sorry, IU would rather lest tend guilty people out of jail than let one innocent person be killed by a miscarriage of justice.

Dean only opposes innocent Iraqi's being killed, not innocent American's. He turns his own argument about the death penalty on its head by stating that he approves of it but only in certain cases, aqnd only if afair trial is guaranteed.But trhen he weakens the mechanism by which a poor, but innocent person can even get an attorney.

Sorry, find some LEGAL support for Deans position.

Here is where Dean pulls the typican REpublican type argument.

"So I just life without parole, which we have which I actually got passed when I was lieutenant governor. the problem with life without parole is that people get out for reasons that have nothing to do with justice. We had a case where a guy who was a rapist, a serial sex offender, was convicted, then was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality, a new trial was ordered and the victim wouldnt come back and go through the second trial. "

This may be the case in which double jeopary is involved. You cannot try a person; release them, and try them again for the same crime, regardless, it is unconstitutional.

Dean has made up an apocryphal story to justify an entire stance for all death penalty cases. No reference to case, just a story. Republicans do that all of the time. Like the story Reagan made up about the guy he knew who lost a job becasue of a rasie in the minimum wage. Bullshit, basically

[ProfessorPlum]

42. Who's "Dena"?

It sounds like she should be stopped.

[DianeK]

51. you know...

our state is so small...it is not more than a midsize city population wise...we care about out neighbors because we know our neighbors..we see first hand what the bush administration has done to some of our neighbors...dean has given health care to all of our children under the age of 18..do you have any idea what a god send that was to all of us here? yeah, for sure, dean is no liberal, and if you go to his web pages you will see in his own words that he is not, but is is a straight shooter...for sure...he pisses me off..many times..but he is consistent

[ProfessorPlum]

53. Diane,

Don't try to cloud the issues with your actual experience as a Vermont resident. Haven't you heard? Dean is the antichrist himself. And also he smells bad. And also, we have to stop his evil henchperson "Dena", too.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

55. A Vermonter speaks

Thanks for the voice of reason, Diane. You mean all Dems in Vermont don't think Howard Dean is an evil Repub-lover?

Glad to have a voice of reason on the board, rather than just bias.

When Nic says stuff like "Dean only opposes innocent Iraqi's being killed, not innocent American's", I can't listen anymore, because it's so outrageous -- sounds like something the RW media pundits are saying about Dean and others against the war.

[CWebster]

37. So Nick

You mentioned that you were a supporter of Dean's until he looked at you the wrong way. What did you do- search for evidence of his black heart?

Why did you previously support him? You can dig up dirt on anybody, if that is what you are searching for. You could be right, I don't know, I am not familiar with your source. But all things considered, with the viable options, Dean, in my opinion has not only the chance to win, but the opportunity to bring more hope to the country. He is not perfect, and it is a mistake to burden anyone with that expectation, but he is tenacious and I admire that.

[Nicholas_J]

39. Nope asked one question

Thats at the heart of his attacks on the other candidates.

Thats when I knew he was pure politician.

[ProfessorPlum]

69. I'm all twitterpated in suspense here

won't you please share your question/his response? Please Please PLEASE? After all, if it will destroy our support for Dean the way it did yours, it must be really and totally logical.

[Nicholas_J]

76. Nope

It will all come out in the wash in the fall.

[ProfessorPlum]

78. Oh Shoot

now I'll just have to go on believing that you are lying, instead of getting the chance to see the light!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

82. LOL "Secret Weapon"

that can't be revealed...too dangerous...too devastating...

What did Dean say to Nic?? I think Geraldo will be on this one any day now...

[ProfessorPlum]

38. Jesus Effing Christ

the police state of VERMONT?

Somebody needs to change their dosage.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

60. Maybe it was the "Please" state of Vermont?

:shrug:

[LuminousX]

61. That has to be it

I just never saw many Vermonters voting against Dean come the elections. It must have been that Stasi like police force he had threatening the voters.

[DianeK]

63. you support somebody?

energize it! i promise to support whoever gets the nod...i am not crapping on who you support...show me the money!

[LuminousX]

64. Again

(although I was recently proved wrong) it is the Dean supporter who highlights the fact that she will vote for Kerry (or whoever) if Dean doesn't get the nomination.

I did see a Kerry supporter make a similar assertion, so it probably isn't as extreme as I feared it was.

[MercutioATC]

66. There are always a few that "won't vote for so-and-so", but

almost everybody here (in ALL camps) has agreed to support whomever gains the nomination.

[DianeK]

67. i am abb

that is anybody but bush..truly..this infighting must stop..it does nothing but weaken our resolve

[RevolutionStartsNow]

68. Plenty of us

I've seen plenty of Dean supporters say they will support Kerry (or any nominee), and plenty of Kerry supporters say they will support Dean or whomever. Most of us are reasonable people.

There are only a few who hate so deeply and so illogically that they are willing to abandon the party and let the stuttering moron from today's press conference stumble back into the White House for another 4 years...