Kerry Slams Dean for Confederate Flag Remarks

[DJcairo]

Statement from John Kerry on Howard Dean's Confederate flag statement
"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Howard Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire.
November 01, 2003

Kerry's response:
"Howard Dean is justifying his pandering to the NRA by saying his opposition to an assault weapons ban allows him to pander to lovers of the Confederate flag. It is simply unconscionable for Howard Dean to embrace the most racially divisive symbol in America. I would rather be the candidate of the NAACP than the NRA."

Dean's Flip-Flopping on the Confederate Flag
Dean "declined to say South Carolina should stop flying a Confederate flag, again saying that is a state decision."

Dean has conceded previously that there are "a very significant number of folks in this state to whom it is a symbol of oppression and slavery."
http://blog.johnkerry.com/blog/archives/000607.html

[dorktv]

1. Looks like Dean is pointing out that there are rednecks in this

country.

[mikehiggins]

6. Interesting

CLark hammers Bush
Kerry hammers Dean
Lieberman hammers Clark
Kuchinich hammers everyone
Sharpton hammers Dean
(whoops sorry--editing) Gephardt hammers Dean.
Braun hasn't been heard from in days.
Edwards hasn't been heard from in days.

Who's forwarding the Democratic mission?

[dorktv]

7. Dean.

[Octafish]

8. No, it shows Dean panders to NRA rednecks.

Ho-Ho likes to SAY how he does the unpopular thing when he thinks he's right. It is ironic that he never seems to put his actions where his mouth is.

Some things are more important than getting the southern redneck vote. Tell me, please: How is Dean doing the unpopular thing by supporting Dixie attitudes?

Unpopular would be to say that the Confederate flag is WRONG. Not only is the emblem of traitors to the US Constitution, it is the emblem of bigotry, hatred and racism.

But then again, when it comes to getting elected Ho-Ho and some of his supporters say, "It's OK. Dean's only doing whatever thing it takes to get votes."

[dorktv]

26. Oh so Dean pointing out that there are others in this country we might not

agree with yet still have to put up with is bad? Does that mean that we should not allow them a place at the table?

[Octafish]

58. Sure, the rednecks are welcome if they change their ways.

And that means dropping the hatred baggage. Don't you agree?

[Padraig18]

84. Nice, open mind..

"Rednecks"? Yeah, I'm sure they come running if you refer to them that way. :eyes:

[Octafish]

94. "Two wrongs don't make a right." My apologies.

You're right. I should not have used the term "redneck" in my reply to the post that originally used the term. It probably would be more polite to say ignorant, bigoted, underemployed white people. That's who Dean had in mind when he brought up the Confederate flag, right?

[workenstiff]

115. This is why Bush is president

This arrogant attitude towards Southerners is why Bush is President and why the Republican party is taking over this f---ing country. FDR built a winning coalition by appealing to factory workers and farmers on economic issues. “It’s the economy stupid” was the winning battle cry of Clinton and it worked in the South.

Why does a person HAVE to be anti-gun to be a Democrat?
Why does a person HAVE to ban a Confederate flag to be a Democrat?
Why does a person HAVE to be card carrying member of NOW or the ACLU to be a Democrat?

This is a big party, we have room for many opinions. This country is being killed by “free” trade, poor health insurance, a flood of illegal immigration.

Maybe the Democrats would be better off with the redneck Southerner and without the pet issue/litmus test crowd.

[Octafish]

118. George Wallace in 1972 tried same thing Dean is now.

My point is it seems Dean wants to have it both ways:

1. Dean wants to attract the Democratic Southern supporters of George Wallace who are bigots — it has nothing to do with economic class, gun rights, or membership in the ACLU.

2. Dean wants the Dixiecrat vote without having to state why he — as a Democrat — believes they are wrong regarding racism.

It’s like wanting one’s cake and eating it too, except the end result of a Dean nomination is four more years of Bushler.

BTW: A hearty welcome to DU, workenstiff. It sounds like we believe the same things all Democrats do — ALL people are created equal and deserve equal protection under the law.

[dsc]

2. I sincerely hope it is you

and not Kerry, who is being so dishonest in cutting that quote. As was clear to anyone with an IQ above freezing, Dean clearly meant to that he would ask them what they have gotten for supporting Republicans over the years. The answers are shitty schools, non existent health care, and stagnant wages. BTW could you provide a link, if you even bother to look at responses, so I can see just who is being dishonest here?

[dorktv]

4. Oh this was just flamebait...

[DJcairo]

5. Ok, but you just don't say it like that.

You have to admit, it's an incredibly dumb thing to say and may cost him the south as it alienates him from just about every African -American voter there ever was. If you were black, would you appreciate that remark? He ought to be condemning people for driving around with Confederate flags. And you all talk about Bush-lite.
Jesus, the hypocrisy is mind blowing.

[dsc]

15. Do you or don't you have a link?

Incidently I actually found one myself in the LBN forum (no thanks to you). So now I know that this is a different quote than the one I was thinking of though he has used the argument several times. BTW I lived in MS and while I find the confederate flag repellent many decent people who should be voting for our candidate don't. I think giving those people reasons to vote for us instead of grandstanding on the confederate flag is more productive. But I do like winning.

[Military Brat]

3. Dean still believes in the UNITED States of America

Not the divided states we have become. I once lived in the South, and I assure you, many people with Confederate flags simply look upon it as a symbol of the South, and unfortunately fail to realize that the Confederate flag symbolizes a lot more than gentility and Southern hospitality and a charming accent.

As for me, I would love to see all Confederate flags burned and never shown again. But let's try to educate them, because you'll never bulldoze a Southerner into changing his mind.

Sometimes I think Kerry is grasping at straws.

[dorktv]

9. The other canidates' people are always so bitter with us Deanies.

At least where I am at.

[DJcairo]

11. Do you support what Dean said in the article?

How can Democrats be Democrats if were are going to try and appeal to confederate flag carrying white rascists?

[dorktv]

14. Pointing out that there are rednecks is one thing.

...Actually saying "I think JUST LIKE THEM" is different. Besides Dean actually is saying "I want EVERYONE to be in the game, not just this or that group." He has been saying this for a very long time now.

[dsc]

17. What article

you haven't provided a link. BTW the link is posted in LBN if someone wishes to read it. But if you are going to ask our opinion on an article then you need to link it.

[Octafish]

24. John F Kennedy was the last threat to these racists...

... and when he died, they celebrated. No wonder Dean wants to be the friend of the white racists. It saddens me this guy calls himself a Democrat.

DID HE KNOW JFK TO DIE?

Published in The Athens Observer, p. 2A (February 12,1987).

A south Georgian named Joseph Milteer, now dead, represents a second possible Georgia connection to the assassination of President Kennedy.  According to FBI documents published by the noted assassinations expert Harold Weisberg in this book Frame-Up in 1971, Joseph Adams Milteer was born in Quitman, Ga., on Feb. 26, 1902.  Thus, at the time of the  assassination, Milteer was 61 years old.  In 1963 he apparently lived in both Quitman and Valdosta.  Like many of the persons who were eyewitnesses to Kennedy's death, or who have been suspected of involvement in the Kennedy assassination, Milteer apparently died a violent and unnatural death.  According to Robert Groden, a photographic expert who worked for the House Select Committee on Assassinations, Milteer died of burns in 1974 at the age of 72 after a Coleman heating stove exploded.

SNIP...

On the morning of Nov. 9, 1963, two weeks before the Kennedy assassination, Milteer engaged in a conversation in a Miami hotel room with a man named Willie Somersett.  Apparently unknown to Milteer, Somersett (who died in 1970), was an informer for the police who surreptitiously tape-recorded the conversation.  The tape was promptly turned over to local Miami police, who then forwarded it to federal authorities.  The taped conversation was revealed for the first time publicly in the Miami News in February 1967, although Milteer's named was not mentioned.  The Miami News article was quoted at length (again without mentioning Milteer's name) in Harold Weisberg's Oswald in New Orleans, also published in 1967.  In 1971 in Frame-Up Weisberg published a transcript of the taped conversation, together with various FBI documents relating to Milteer.  This time Milteer's name was given.  In 1979 the House Assassinations Committee included information on  Milteer in several of its published volumes, and quoted verbatim an excerpt from the transcript of his Nov. 9, 1963 conversation with Somersett.

According to the House Committee transcript, Milteer told Somersett that the killing of Kennedy "was in the working," that the president could be killed "rom an office building with a high-powered rifle," that the rifle could be "disassembled" to get it into the building, and that "hey will pick up somebody within hours afterward, if anything like that would happen just to throw the public off."  He also mentioned "the Cubans."

When Miami police turned the tape-recorded conversation over to the Secret Service and FBI, there was a flurry of activity and extra security precautions were taken to protect the president on his trip to Miami, which took place on Nov. 18, the Monday before the Friday assassination.  However, information about the Milteer remarks apparently was not passed on to Secret Service officials responsible for the trip to Dallas.

CONTINUED...

http://www.law.uga.edu/academics/profiles/dwilkes_more/jfk_4did.html



"...From an office building with a high powered rifle,
how many people (room noise tape not legible) does he have
going around who look just like him? 
Do you know about that?..."

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0062c.html

[Cha]

22. That's sweet! Thank you!

:toast:

[Endangered Specie]

93. most people here...

see it as a symbol of states rights, not slavery. Althought that may not be correct, I've lived in the South since the day I was born, and that is what it stands for for most southerners.

[robbedvoter]

97. So, the confederate flag is a symbol for ...UNITY now????

This is just like W admiring Lincoln "because he brought us together"
The confederate flag is used by nazi groups worldwide.
Whatever benign original meaning might have had, it was overshadowed by the rest. Go rent "Brother Where Are Thou". See what flag kills the KKK dragon at their rally?
The swastika used to be a positive rune once. Then, they removed it from the alphabet (as I am sure, one day le tetter "W" will too)

[DJcairo]

10. Dean is a hypocrite

He uses this issue and others to point out his appeal to a "broad cross-section of Democrat's" yet condemns Kerry and others who are far more liberal on issues like the environment and gun control as 'Bush-lite"

Dean makes me sick:puke:

[genius]

12. Dean's got a real probalm with racism

The bad news is that his supporters don't realize or care about how racist his positions on the 4th, 5,th, 6th 8th, and 14th Amendments are. His nominees will likely be worse than Bush's for those concerned about civil rights.

[hedda_foil]

13. It's actually from Kerry's website.

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/releases/pr_2003_1101.html

This is really despicable. Kerry and his campaign team know damn well that Dean's message here is (constantly and repeatedly) that Republicans have scared many Southern whites into voting against their own interests for years by race baiting and making them think the Democrats are out for their guns. His only message in this is that these people need health care and jobs as much as other Americans. He asks these people what the Republicans have done for them and urges them to join in a politics of inclusion for their own good.

It's part of Dean's stump speech. It's part of his effort to rebuild the American community. And for Kerry to use this type of smear is as dishonest and ugly as anything I've seen ... coming really close to the Willie Horton smears on Dukakis.

[dsc]

21. actually it isn't

In yet another case of my having to do a Dean bashers homework it is from an article that is currently posted in LBN. Kerry merely copied that article onto his blog. I have no idea the extent to which the paper cut Dean's quote though Dean did get to provide his explanation. Evidently the quote is from an interview and not his stump speech. It would have been nice if the original poster had provided the link instead of my having to look for it.

[mzmolly]

16. Kerry forgot to add where Dean said...

Because they *confederate flag wavin' pick up drivin folks* want opportunities and health insurance for their families as well.

Go Dean!

[dorktv]

18. Dean is always saying EVERYONE should be at the table.

Not just those we like.

[Cha]

20. Dean is sooo Cool!

I'll welcome those Southerners, too!

All of 'em! Big Tent! :kick:

[dorktv]

28. ya got to get them in the door before you can change their minds.

[hedda_foil]

19. Here's the actual Dean quote ... what he always says

Re Confederate flag:
Here is what he said - how can you disagree with that?
"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

25. That quote doesn't agree with the Des Moines Register article

that started this latest fracas:

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

What is your source?

[dsc]

29. The fact is

that we had no idea what was being talked about here which isn't our fault. The original poster never provided a link, he still hasn't BTW. I would assume here source was the Democratic dinner that was also mentioned in that article. But the fact is we aren't mind readers nor are we readers of every paper put out on earth. It is incumbent on the posters of these things to provide links so we are on the same page.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. The fact is

hedda_foil provided a quote and said: "Here's the actual Dean quote"

But actually provided something else. And did not say what the source was for the quote provided. And I asked what that source was.

[Egnever]

57. The fact is

That this is part of his stump speach he repeats it daily. The quote heada_foil posated that is.

The fact that he garbled it while talking to someone at a dinner is nothing to get excited about.

Despite all of Kerr's obvious attempts to make it into more than what it is.

[gully]

36. I'm shocked and confused that a quote from a candidate could be

taken out of context.

[workenstiff]

116. Link to download Dean speech

Here is a link to Dean's speech before the California Democratic Convention March 26, 2003.

The Rebel Flag quote is in this speech and you can here the applause from the crowd of California's most elite Democrats.

This is a video/audio file - so listen to it yourself.

[dsc]

23. BTW here is the link

that the original poster refused to provide. One can judge for oneself the extent to which the editting of that quote was dishonest.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=716&e=8&u=/ap/20031101/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_2004

[Feanorcurufinwe]

27. This is the link to the original Des Moines Register story that yahoo

talks about: http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

[dsc]

30. Thanks but we still have no context

I think given that it is fair to assume that the context here is the same as it was every other time he has said this. That context is provided in this thread and to some extent in the Yahoo piece.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. Grow up black in the south if you want context.

I didn't so I can't provide it for you.

[dsc]

39. I meant as you f well know

the context of Dean's remark. Frankly you and I both know what it was the last time he had said it. You used to be more honest.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

40. I meant as you f well know

the context of Dean's remark. The broader context.

[loyalsister]

31. Kerry knows better

I have lost a ton of respect for him with this one. His elitism and exclusion is showing.
One thing Dean gets that Kerry doesn't is that political correctness can torpedo policy dialogue. Dean complained because when he went to S. Carolina to talk about health care all anyone wanted to ask him about was the confederate flag. There are things that are more important than a flag with YES multiple meanings. Dean has said repeatedly that whites and blacks have a lot of the same problems and should be voting together to alleviate them. His position is along the lines of "Let's take care of priorities like health care first and worry about the semantics of the confederate flag later."

People who have racists attitude are also part of the electorate, and they are also hurting as a result of Republican policies. Kerry and other Democrats disregard them as irrelevant and have since Nixon's southern strategy. They come off as thinking they're "too good" to associate themselves with these people they disagree with whether they need help or not. That is where the "liberal elitists tag" comes from. Dean is on the right track in wanting to do away with it.
The best way to combat racism is for people to pull together in terms of common self-interest. Being in the same boat facilitates a sense of equality.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. You're actually saying we should try to appeal to racists?

:wtf:

[loyalsister]

43. I'm saying

That there are people with racist attitudes whose interests are better represented by Democrats. As ugly as their ideas are, their needs for health insurance and education are real and they shouldn't be forgotten altogether- as opposed to the attitudes I run across where people pretty much think they should be deported or something.
I hope you
I think that we get nowhere by being relentlessly combative and critical with people who have racist attitudes. Incidents deserve criticism, yes. However, if we try to appeal to things that are important to them and offer neither criticism nor compliment re: their attitudes, we will be able to win some of these voters.
Keep in mind, if that happened the transformation that would have taken place would be one where they would have stopped casting a vote against Dems based on their own racist attitudes- (a racist act?).

[Feanorcurufinwe]

48. Those racists will vote for Bush not the Democrat.

No matter how much pandering Dean does.

[loyalsister]

55. Oh I'm sure you know

The fact is is you live in the south or lower midwest, there are people who are rabidly racist and people who are less so. There are some who have a bunch of foolish preconceptions related to race that Republicans have been very successful at manipulating. These are people who have been voting against their self interests for a very long time. It's quite possible that their actual attitudes are more plastic than you seem to be stereotyping.
As far as pandering. This move by Kerry is a pathetic and VERY cynical form.

[Padraig18]

78. Kerry PANDERS???

Say it ain't so! :P

[billbuckhead]

117. I guess there are no racists outside the south or the midwest?

You guys keep digging a deeper hole. Why doesn't Dean just say he was wrong? Why doesn't Dean disavow the NRA and it's blacklist? Hubris possibly? Or has Ted Nugent and Charlton Heston gotten to him?

[mbali]

87. And if they vote for Democrats

they'll be expecting something in return. And it won't just be health care and better schools for their kids. They already know that Democrats are better for them in that respect but align themselves with the GOP because they know that Republicans will take care of them where it REALLY matters to them - on social issues and keeping "those people" in their places. The only way they'll switch is if they think the Dems will do as good a job at that as Republicans. And if they do switch and help to put the Democrats over the top, you can bet they'll expect their reward.

THAT'S why Dean's remarks are offensive. Not only were they grossly insensitive to African American voters - who have been exceedingly loyal to Democrats and won't appreciate being squeezed out by johnny-come-lately confederate-flag waving bigots - but it once again demonstrates how woefully ignorant he is about the complex, nuanced and deeply sensitive issue of the race and politics in America.

[loyalsister]

106. Bull!

Where did Dean say I want to appeal to their anti other people sensibilities???? That has never been his position that has never been what his interaction with voters has been.
Dean wants to appeal to people who are accused of being racist but aren't, and those who have been mislead into voting against their self interests because the real racists have convinced them that minorities are trying to steal their jobs and place in the world from them. Their beef has not been that they hate minorities rabidly. It has been that Democrats pay so much more attention to minorities and poor people that the average white guy feels left out. They act angry, but they don't have the firm hatred of others.
I'm sick of this flag issue, because it has more than one meaning. There are a lot of people for whom it is ONLY a symbol of southern pride. Regional pride is a huge part of southern culture, and I don't think it's fair to always assume it is tied to racism. Since you're so "aware of nuances" I would hope you could grasp that this symbol has a double meaning. And since you have a sense of justice, I would hope that you might grasp that Dean is being fair by not over generalizing people's intent.
He is also talking about not writing people off as so many here would like to do.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

107. Usually when candidates 'wrap themselves in the flag'

it's the American flag. A symbol of unity for our country. Not a symbol of divisiveness.

I don't suppose you've ever heard of the Civil War?

[loyalsister]

108. Oh really?

Like how Gep said he doesn't want to represent people with confederate flags JUST people with American flags?
How does he think he can win his own state making statements that are excluding people in the Dixie Belt that runs through it? There are plenty of civil war landmarks, commemorations, and recreations here.

[Padraig18]

109. 'Wrap themselves in the flag"?

Ummm, the term has a specific meaning that is NOT appropos here. Wait, I forgot--- you're a Kerry supporter, so logic has nothing to do with it, as long as it smears Dean. :eyes:

[w4rma]

35. Kerry is a liar. (n/t)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. Articulate argument. Irrefutable references. Hard hitting commentary.

NOT.

[w4rma]

38. Kerry is a liar.

Dean said the men with Confederate flag decals in their pickup trucks represented lucrative prospects for the party "because their kids don't have health insurance, either, and their kids need better schools, too.

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

41. Those aren't the remarks Kerry responded to.

This is what Kerry was responding to:

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

Look -- I don't think Dean is a racist. Just someone who doesn't know how to keep his foot out of his mouth.

[dsc]

42. Yes or no

Do you honestly think those are the only two sentences uttered by Dean in that interview?

Presuming you think the answer is no then for all either of us know Dean said the exact same thing to the interviewer as he said in the stump speech we have been quoting.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

45. Yes or no

Do you honestly think the way we are going to win in 2004 is by getting racists to vote for us instead of Bush?

[dsc]

60. That isn't what he said

and you f well know it. BTW, unlike you, I actuall lived down there. And even progressive whites of a certain age, have that flag displayed. Thankfully those people of a certain age are dying off but the simple fact is that not everyone, and maybe not even a majority, of those who have that flag dispalyed are racists. Again, unlike you, I KNOW what I am talking about.

[LuminousX]

44. Kerry is a Liar

Kerry Lies, Distorts, and Panders

Iraq

10/13
Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry said on Sunday President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney should apologize for misleading the American people about the war in Iraq and called the international fighting force there a "fraud."
Kerry criticized Bush and Cheney for justifying the war, in part, by saying Iraq was "on the road" to building nuclear weapons, which the senator said has been proven not to be true.
He also slammed the administration for not working adequately with the international community to win backing for the war and not building the broad military coalition in Iraq that was promised.
"I'm asserting very clearly that they misled America," Kerry said on ABC's "This Week" news program. "I think the president and Vice President Cheney should be apologizing to America," he added.
http://chblue.com/artman/publish/article_3259.shtml

10/14
“I voted to hold Iraq accountable and hold Saddam Hussein accountable. That was the right vote for the defense of the United States of America.”

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/14/elec04.prez.kerry.dean.ap/index.html

Either it was justified or it wasn’t. This is a case of ‘cake and eating it too’

Cuban Sanctions
Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, a Democratic candidate for president who has campaigned heavily in Florida for cash and votes, appeared to shift his stance on the trade embargo with Cuba on Sunday, telling a national television audience that he now supports keeping sanctions in place.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6666091.htm

Voted NO on Strengthening of the trade embargo against Cuba.

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_Foreign_Policy.htm

MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to Cuba before we take a break. This is what John Kerry said a few years ago regarding Fidel Castro in Cuba. “Senator John Kerry...said in an interview that a re-evaluation of relations with Cuba was ‘way overdue.’ ‘We have a frozen, stalemated, counterproductive policy...There is just a complete and total contradiction between the way we deal with China, the way we dealt with Russia, the way we have been dealing with Cuba...The only reason we don’t re-evaluate the policy is the politics of Florida.’”
SEN. KERRY: That’s an honest statement.
MR. RUSSERT: Would you consider lifting sanctions, lifting the embargo against Cuba?
SEN. KERRY: Not unilaterally, not now, no.
MR. RUSSERT: Would you lessen travel restrictions?
SEN. KERRY: Yes.
MR. RUSSERT: How?
SEN. KERRY: I’d like to get people traveling in there. I think that people traveling in there weakens Castro. I want to do what it takes to weaken Fidel Castro. I don’t like Fidel Castro. Some people have cottoned to him in our party and go down and visit. I went to Cuba once and I purposely said I don’t want to. I...
MR. RUSSERT: But, Senator, we trade with Russia, we trade with China, why not trade with Cuba?
SEN. KERRY: I don’t think we should do that automatically. Because I think you want to get something for something, and I think that you should re-evaluate, and I agree—I mean, I don’t change what I said. But I think we need to move step by step in a way that begins to engage and see what we can do. But I wouldn’t just give him a reward for nothing, no.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/960385.asp

Either the embargo stays in place or it is lifted. His reasoning for keeping it are weak, especially seeing how we’ve treated China in the past. Why the change from wanting to examine lifting the embargo to not wanting to? Could it be a flip-flop to pander to Florida?

Taxes
Flip: In December 2002, Kerry said, "We should encourage the measurement of the real value of companies by ending the double taxation of dividends."
Flop: Throughout 2003, Kerry opposed President Bush's tax plan, which, according to Bush, would eliminate the "double taxation on dividends." In May, Kerry voted against the final plan, which cut but didn't eliminate the tax on corporate dividends.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2088214/

Is this Political expediency?

Medical Marijuana

At an August 6 event hosted by his campaign, GSMM's Linda Macia asked Kerry, "On the day you take office, will you stop the DEA raids?" Kerry offered to "clarify" his earlier remarks, saying, "My personal disposition is open to the issue of medical marijuana. I believe there is a study underway analyzing what the science is. I want to get that scientific review" before making any decisions. He said he would "put a moratorium on the raids" pending this review, but he didn't commit to any long-term action to protect patients from arrest.
http://www.granitestaters.com/guide/kerry.html

MANCHESTER, NEW HAMPSHIRE -- Questioned at a campaign event last night by members of Granite Staters for Medical Marijuana, Democratic presidential candidate U.S. Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) retreated from his previous support of medical marijuana.
During the Manchester forum, broadcast live on C-SPAN, GSMM member Linda Macia, who suffers from several debilitating illnesses for which conventional medications have not provided relief, thanked Kerry for his July 2 statement of support, provoking audience applause. She then asked Kerry about the Drug Enforcement Administration's raids on patients using medical marijuana under California law.
"On the day you take office, will you stop the DEA raids?" Macia asked.
Kerry then offered to "clarify" his earlier remarks, saying, "My personal disposition is open to the issue of medical marijuana. I believe there is a study underway analyzing what the science is. I want to get that scientific review," before making any decisions. He said he would "put a moratorium on the raids" pending this review but would not commit to any long-term action to protect patients from arrest.
It is unclear what "review" Kerry meant. An exhaustive review of medical marijuana data was released by the Institute of Medicine in 1999 and reported that some seriously ill patients might benefit from marijuana. No similar study is known to be underway at present.
At the conclusion of the forum -- again captured by C-SPAN's cameras -- GSMM Campaign Coordinator Aaron Houston asked Kerry what study he was referring to, and Kerry replied, "I am trying to find out. I don't know." Despite this, he again refused to pledge a permanent end to arrests of patients "until that analysis is done."
http://www.mpp.org/releases/nr080703gsmm.html

What study is he talking about? He doesn’t even know. That is not like Senator Kerry, which implies he was flip flopping on the issue, or he was just out and out lying about supporting medical marijuana. One or the other.

Affirmative Action

Three years earlier, John Kerry expressed similar concerns about affirmative action creating reverse discrimination. In a speech at Yale University, Kerry said he supports affirmative action, which he lauded for opening doors for women, creating a black middle class and diversifying campuses, but he said the policy had costs as well as benefits.

"There exists a reality of reverse discrimination that actually engenders racism," he said. Later, he added, "We cannot hope to make further racial progress when the plurality of whites believe, as they do today according to recent data, that it is they, not others, who suffer most from discrimination."

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-affirmative-action,0,4828392.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

Is that a firm statement of support for Affirmative Action?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

46. The 'officially uncommitted' weighs in.

You don't support Dean, right? :eyes:

[indigo32]

52. Hey You've said on several occasions

you want to hear about Kerry...
so there ya go.

[LuminousX]

77. Just because I attack Kerry doesn't mean I support Dean

I don't support any of them.

No one has proven that any are worthy of my vote. Dean captures my imagination though. I wish he could overcome the negativity of people like yourself, but I don't think he can. Too much entrenched hatred.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

79. OK

:eyes:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

82. Luminous, AA can indeed cause reverse discrimination- Baake proved it

this is over 20 years old now. Kerry supports Affirmative Action so long as it is fair.

[Padraig18]

83. Is this a 'nuanced' position of his?

Is this what he has consistently and unambiguosly said all along?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

91. Hmm, let's see...

In a speech at Yale University, Kerry said he supports affirmative action, which he lauded for opening doors for women, creating a black middle class and diversifying campuses, but he said the policy had costs as well as benefits.

"There exists a reality of reverse discrimination that actually engenders racism," he said. Later, he added, "We cannot hope to make further racial progress when the plurality of whites believe, as they do today according to recent data, that it is they, not others, who suffer most from discrimination."
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-affirmative-action,0,4828392.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

So Kerry says he is in favor of affirmative action, but believes more must be done to change white attitudes.

Nuanced? You decide.

[Hawkeye-X]

95. So does that mean you'll cross off Kerry on that banner of yours?

Hmm?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

96. Really, how about a little candor?

[LuminousX]

110. No. Because I have different standards, I don't care Kerry lied.

In fact, in my view of the world, these aren't lies. Just like Dean's aren't. But since other Kerry supporters call all of Dean's statements and mismatched viewpoints lies, I decided to do the same. I currently have spiders running on Kerry's speeches and transcripts from the news shows to pull out even more discrepencies.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

113. OK

:eyes:

[CMT]

47. in 1976 Jimmy Carter made a comment regarding "ethnic purity"

which caused a firestorm of criticism which makes Dean's comments regarding wanting to appeal to guys in pickups with a confederate flag on their window seem small potatos. Carter still did very well with African-Americans and proved his sincerity for civil rights as president. So will Howard Dean.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

50. Carter apologized for that remark; will Dean apologize for this?

[Padraig18]

49. And Kerry loses the South for the Dems, yet again...

"Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts contended that Dean's "pandering" to the National Rifle Association gave him an inroad to "pander to lovers of the Confederate flag."


Good job, bone head! :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

53. "I would rather be the candidate of the NAACP than the NRA" - Kerry

[Padraig18]

59. I know that's what he said--- *I* posted it to begin with. n/t

[LuminousX]

111. They have to be mutually exclusive?

Why can't we have a candidate who can represent both?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

112. You don't know?

If you really think the Democratic party should be the party of the NRA, then Dean is definately the candidate for you.

[killbotfactory]

67. Kerry is too liberal to be elected

An elitist gay-marriage approving ivory-tower New England gun-grabbing fair-weather-hawkish liberal who wants to raise taxes and will alienate the south and lose all but 49 states.













teeheehee

[killbotfactory]

51. desperate attacks from a desperate man

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. Dean must be desperate to attack our Democratic principles this way.

[killbotfactory]

56. Kerry's a sinking ship, Dean's a juggernaut

[Feanorcurufinwe]

62. As Harry Truman said:

"Give the people a choice between a Republican and a Republican and
they will choose the Republican every time."

Truman also had a lesson for us as far as trusting polls:

[killbotfactory]

63. Give people a choice between Dean and Dean-lite

And they'll choose Dean everytime.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

65. Totally meaningless.

What would Dean-lite be? Someone who only panders and lies PART of the time?

[Padraig18]

73. No, Dean-Lite would be Kerry.

Who lies every time he opens his mouth about IWR!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. You are able to insult Kerry. Impressive.

[Padraig18]

76. And you are able to flame and distort a man's words. impressive, as well.

[Padraig18]

61. Oh, PUH-leeze!

How did Howard 'attack our Democratic principles'? Talk about over-the-top hyperbole! :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. You'd have to understand our principles to understand the answer to that.

[Padraig18]

66. I *do* understand 'our principles'...

... and apologize in advance for not belonging to the 'lunatic-left' wing of the party. :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

68. CONFEDERATE FLAG SYMBOL OF EVIL AND HATE

Kweisi Mfume, President & CEO, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, today said the Confederate flag today represents evil in much the same way as the German Swastika.

"The NAACP believes it is time for Mississippi to have a flag that all of its citizens can support. This means one without the symbol of the confederacy," Mfume said. "Confederate flag supporters who are proud of the heritage it represents should understand that this includes the support of slavery and the belief that African Americans are not entitled to all of the protections of the Constitution."

Mfume said Confederate vice president Alexander H. Stephens made this clear in his famous Cornerstone speech in 1861 in Savannah, Georgia. Stephens said: "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea ; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests upon the great truth, that the Negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -subordination to the superior race - is his natural and normal condition."

Furthermore, Mfume, said defenders of the flag should closely read the Confederate constitution that says: "The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states, and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any state of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_01/0148.NAACP.Flag.htm

[killbotfactory]

70. JOHN KERRY: TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT

n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

71. THE POINT: CONFEDERATE FLAG SYMBOL OF EVIL AND HATE

[killbotfactory]

72. THE POINT: SOUTHERNERS HAVE GOTTEN SCREWED BY REPUBS

But hey, attack Dean all you want for pointing that out.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

74. Appealing to racist attitudes won't help Dean win.

[killbotfactory]

81. Appealing? He's just pointing out that the right wing has screwed them

And wants their votes.

[BushGone04]

69. This thread has gotten pretty ridiculous...

People on both sides of this argument really need to calm down.

Kerry people: Howard Dean is not a racist. He made a very questionable statement here, but his appeals to the "guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks" are based on issues like healthcare and education, not on race.

Dean people: Your guy screwed up here. That bullshit "state decision" line about the Confederate flag is a blatantly lame copout, and the same argument that was used to justify both slavery and segregation. The flag should come down, and Dean should know that. Frankly, also, I'm not sure I want some of those Confederate-flag types in our party. If that means we lose a lot of the South, so be it.

Thank you.

[deutsey]

80. That's why so many African Americans officials are

endorsing Dean, huh? Not Kerry.

I had a black Dem delegate tell me a week ago when he saw my Dean button that I was backing the right guy.

[mbali]

88. Oh, well - that says it all!

I'm a black Dem and I think that you're backing the wrong guy.

Yikes! Now what are you going to do to split the tie?

[GBD4]

85. Face it, he shouldn't have said this!

What Dean should have said was that he wants to appeal to Southern voters, and not specifically voters with the Confederate flag on their pickup trucks. The post about some progressive whites flying the flag, I don't know where in the South they're doing that, I'd love to know! The Confederate flag is NOT a symbol of Southern heritage but rather a symbol of some Americans who wanted to bolt in the 1860s. A flag with a glass of "sweet tea" would be more of a symbol of Southern heritage. But anyway, regardless of the context, he should not be saying in interviews that he wants to be the guy who all the Confederate flag waving folk cheer for. If those folk vote Dem, that's great! But it just isn't the sort of rhetoric that we need at a time when prejudice is so closely associated with that flag and all the racism America still has.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-fmotel31oct31,0,5522565.story?coll=sfla-news-florida

[many a good man]

86. Class Interests Not Race

Ever since the 1600s elites have manufactured and enflamed racial hatred between poor whites, poor blacks, and poor Indians. Divide and Conquer. Its the only way the top of the pyramid can keep its control.

Any party that can unite the lower classes by overcoming racial and ethnic divisions will be unbeatable.

Dean is trying to tap into this without seeming to play the "race card." A great many NASCAR dads, pickup drivers, and hunters (regardless of flag decal) vote R based on only one or two issues. Downplay gun control and "quotas" and you might be able to get them to vote based on their economic interests, especially now that the economy is going down the toilet.

Dean said we can't become a truly national party by alienating such a large chunk of the country. Noone can realistically accuse him of being pro-Confederate. LOL!

[mbali]

89. If he had said what you just did

there wouldn't be a problem. If Dean is trying to appeal to NASCAR dads, pickup drivers and hunters, that's what he should have said. But identifying his new targeted voters as the ones with the Confederate decal sends an entirely different message.

[Pez]

90. ok ok so when BUSH INC. panders to confederate flag wavers it's evil...

...but when dean does it it's somehow noble? come the eff ON... these people are going to vote for BUSH INC. not bush-lite in the general. when dean tries to woo the most racist element of our society in the primaries it may seem hip and progressive to his supporters who try and rationalize his abandoning of democratic principles, but no one is more racist and pro-NRA than the people dubya puppets for. come ON.

we will not beat BUSH INC. by being bush-lite. they ultimately want bush, who will promise them lower taxes and world domination. that dean thinks by pandering to bush's pals he is somehow from "the democratic wing of the democratic party" makes me ill. this from the guy who trashes people who have been fighting for democratic issues for decades. obviously he is simply a political opportunist and has tricked a large number of people into thinking he is somehow a progressive democrat.

there are plenty of other candidates to examine before you throw your lot in with a loud mealy-mouth opportunist.

[many a good man]

99. One is pandering to racism, the other to common sense

i read this as Dean trying to get Southerners to rethink voting along racist lines and start thinking about their economic self-interests.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

101. Right, when Bush does it, it's bad, when Dean does it, it's good

:eyes:

[many a good man]

103. Racism is bad; common sense good

Pointing out to people that their hatreds are contributing to their own economic demise is a good thing, wouldn't you say?

The percentage of hard core racists is slowly declining in the South, based on what some southerners in these forums say. Maybe priorities are slowly changing. Maybe human nature can slowly evolve; that after all is one of the core beliefs of liberalism.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

104. When Bush does it, it's racism, when Dean does it, it's common-sense

OK :eyes:

[diamondsoul]

92. Just WOW! I'm blown away here.

Seriously, the reaction to these statements is just massive compared to what I would expect.

Admittedly, I'm a far cry from a Dean fan, but I'm clearly missing whatever it is that has everyone else so het up here.

Maybe my perception of all this comes from the uproar over Kucinich's flag-burning amendment, I'm honestly not sure but there seems to be a huge disparity in attitudes here. On one hand everyone thinks it's fine to burn the national symbol/flag, but when people want to fly an old symbol that has just about as much history as our national flag, it's something horrific? Yes I can understand some of the more horrifying images it can conjure for some, but doesn't our national flag have the same affect? Aren't there hundreds of other symbols we allow all over that have the same affects?

Sorry, but this just seems petty, and as for Kweisi Mfume, well he seems to over-react to just about everything from what I've seen in the past year.(That's not to denigrate the NAACP, I'm just not particularly impressed with Mr. Mfume himself.)

Dean made a statement with the clear meaning that he's trying to be an inclusive candidate. I don't see anything wrong with that message.

[He loved Big Brother]

98. KERRY SLAMS BUSH FOR DUPING HIM WITH FALSE EVIDENCE

KERRY SLAMS BUSH FOR PATRIOT ACT.



A girl can dream, can't she? ;)

[Mass_Liberal]

100. Nearly everyone missed the point of what Dean said

and also took it out of context. That includes the original post and kerry and edwards. What he said, if you look further than that sentence is that he wanted the votes of conservative southern white dudes because they have children that deserve health care too. I agree with that statement.


If anyone says for a moment that this quote means Dean is a conservative sympathizer, you are severly deluded and/or didn't bother to look any deeper into the situation, prefering instead to grab at whatever straws you could get.

[Padraig18]

105. They're not deluded

They know damn well what he SAID, but they prefer to be dishonest and attack him for some perceived 'advantage'...

[Fleshdancer]

102. I'm not too thrilled

with how he said it, but I agree with the substance of the message Dean was trying to get across. Then again, Dean does this a lot...he isn't the best when it comes to glossy political speak, but this message is the honest truth which can be a hard pill to swallow sometimes.

We can not change the minds and hearts of others if we have absolutely no dialogue with them. I would argue that tolerance starts to regress once the conversation is over. Like it or not, even the most liberal of Americans have something in common with the most conservative and/or "redneck" of Americans. Whether it be that we have no healthcare, no job, or just the fact that we live in the same city or state or country.

Liberal is defined as this: not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

Maybe I'm flat out wrong here, but if we are free from bigotry, don't we have the responsibility of establishing a communication with people who are not free from bigotry in order to make this country a more tolerant place? Aren't we screwing ourselves if we don't? What's next? Do we ignore everyone who doesn't share our views on religion, homosexuality, feminism too?

[burr]

114. you can judge a person by the company they keep...

At least know what the hell you're talking about. I like Max Cleland, and he is now playing an active role in the Kerry campaign. Somehow, I don't think Cleland would of given his endorsement unless Kerry asked for it.

Now that we have this understood, let us review Cleland's history on this issue. In 1994..Max was one of the few state officials to be elected by a landslide, with over 70% of the popular vote in fact! How did Max Cleland become so popular in a Republican year...very simple, he demagogued the flag issue! When Zell, state Representatives, and state Senators, including my own, were risking their political careers over this issue..Max Cleland opposed the flag change. He even had the 1956 Confederate Georgia Battle Flag slapped all over his old wheelchair to show support for the symbol. Thankfully he was smart enough to get a new wheelchair before he went to Washington...something tells me that flag would not of been a hit on Capital Hill, but then again maybe it would of!

The point is Kerry doesn't give a shit! As far as Kerry is concerned, Cleland could stick swastikas on his wheelchair..and it wouldn't be a problem. After all, the swastika was just some outdated indian symbol..wasn't it? I'm sure Kerry will never be pandering to "lovers of the Confederate Flag."