Very critical Washington Post article tomorrow about Dean

[DJcairo]

And with a shot over the bow...the Kerry campaign shows it is not going ot let Dean crusie to the nomination. Can u blame them? It is primary season folks.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2314-2003Aug29.html

[George_Bonanza]

1. I got pissed of at the WP

For writing that dumb cheesesteak story about Kerry. I guess it's the Deaners' turn now.

[JohnKleeb]

2. dont think like that George and I agree the cheesteak stuff was shit

That said mmmmmmmmmm cheesesteak. Also :) how do you think I feel, my guy is doubted and seldom mentioned, also this is my closest paper being around DC so I am used to it, Ive gotten not to like it, now that said Wilbon and Kornheiser are good sports writers :)

[George_Bonanza]

35. Don't think like that?

Don't think like what? I don't know what you're saying.

[JohnKleeb]

45. dont get vengeful just because the WP said bad stuff about your dude

now boom the other candiate has to suffer. I got it tougher though but you know while Ive been down, Ive been proud of my candiate, I seemed to confused absoulte victory with doing a good job in the primary.

[George_Bonanza]

57. I was never vindictive

Or gleeful in the fact that the WP attacked Dean. I was merely expressing my anger at the cheesesteak article. And I was spectulating that the bad press is going around.

[KaraokeKarlton]

3. That article is no big deal

It's pretty obvious why he's going to consider not taking the matching funds. If he can raise as much as Bush it's better for the whole party because it will make him more competitive and better able to counter any attacks. Anyone who doesn't understand this needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Social Security...a long time ago in the early to mid 90's Dean said something like "to save Social Security we might have to raise the retirement age to 70." At another point he said he would ENTERTAIN raising it to 68. Then, after putting more thought into it, he came up with something entirely different that wouldn't include raising the age.

On Cuba...he's been talking to Cuban Americans, who are much more knowledgeable about the situation. I can just about guarantee that he didn't change his position to gain votes, but rather because he is listening to those closest affected by the issue. He listens to people which is why I suggested to those who are upset about his view on the Middle East that you write him a polite letter providing him with facts that can be documented as to why he should rethink his position on that.

This won't hurt him in the least.

[JohnKleeb]

5. I havent read it yet

Also one quick thing, I appreciate the fact he listens to people I think the same could be said about Kucinich and abortion, the columnist Studs Terkel before Dennis decided to run encouraged him to do so, so maybe he thought Terkel was right but I think hes right about what changed him. That said Karoke thanks for noticing I was down earlier, I feel better today. On the social security thing, I hope he doesnt raise it becaus working your whole life is nothing easy and on Cuba I dunno, I think the embargo makes Cubans suffer more than it helps them. Just my opinion. With respect, I think the post does a lot of bull, I used to like it but lol I was 12 and used it for my current events in school now the only thing I like are our sportswritters Mike Wilbon and Tony Kornheiser, the hosts of PTI, pardon the interpution on ESPN for those who dont know.

[KaraokeKarlton]

6. He wouldn't raise it.

And he has stated on the record how he would deal with the funding issues. I just can't recall exactly what it was called that he wants to raise the limit for. I'm sure it's on his webpage at www.deanforamerica.com if you really want to know, though. And you're welcome about earlier. I can spot a bumming teenager a mile away because I have a couple of teenagers and one almost teenager I deal with every day. :) I'm glad you're feeling better.

I think Cuban Americans are the ones people need to pay closest attention to. They've been there and understand the ramifications of lifting the embargo better than you or I would. If they believe it's a bad idea (and they probably have loved ones in Cuba) they have to believe that for a good reason. That's the way I look at it.

[JohnKleeb]

7. thanks again

I feel really good, and in a bit I am gonna go watch my simpsons season three DVD. Thanks for your output, I hope he wont if hes pres. I understand you must listen to the Cuban Americans but I dont find Castro to be totally evil either, I dont think hes a saint or even a fair leader but as far as accomplishments go hes not that so bad compared to his predecessor. Thanks again, it over to its over and I have been confusing heh victory with absolute victory, victory is that my wing of the party and the one Kucinich runs with will get listened to, and gain in the party.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. Problem is that Dean managed to "forget" what he said on Meet

the Press in late June by early August. On MTP, he said, not once but twice, that he'd consider raising the Social Security retirement age to 68, after saying that he no longer supported raising it to 70. But in early August, Dean denied that he'd ever suggested raising the retirement age. The next day he issued a statement that he "misspoke." :eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

10. So?

He said he messed up...and owned it. People do that sometimes. Besides, saying he'd consider something isn't the same as saying he supports actually doing it. Consider means look at the information and then decide either yes, or no. At the forum where Kucinich brought it up, HE misquoted what Dean actually said and tried to imply that Dean supports raising the age when that's not what he said on MTP. In fact, Russert took a comment Dean made back in the early to mid 90's that Dean said he didn't recall making, but could have. Dean made it perfectly clear that he doesn't support that now. Russert asked him if he'd ever consider raising the age to 68 and he said he'd consider it but added what he felt would be a better solution.

He "misspoke" close to 10 years ago and didn't even remember saying the age should be raised to 70. Did Kucinich come out and say that he misspoke when he accused Dean of saying he supported raising the age when all he said is that he would consider it AND then stated what he would do INSTEAD of raising the age to 68? I don't recall reading anything about it. I don't know...to me it kinda looks like Dean just forgot something he said almost a decade ago and that Kucinich was the one who misspoke.

It doesn't matter either way because there's virtually nothing anyone can say that will sway Dean's supporters. We're a fiercely loyal bunch and the whole think was no big deal.

[renie408]

41. The problem is...

you like him. Period. Nothing that anybody says about him is going to bother you. You have made up your mind. Which is fine. But for people who HAVEN'T, this sort of thing could swing them. Both now and if he wins the nomination.

[chimpymustgo]

82. Dean didn't "misspeak". He LIED.

It's pretty straightforward. He said one thing on MTP, and 2 months later he lied and said he didn't.

What's with the parsing? A lie is a lie.

[w4rma]

18. Dean: I have never ***favored*** …

On the MTP interview Dean said he favored raising the payroll tax cap. He never said he *favored* rasing the retirement age on the MTP interview, although he said he'd "entertain" it as an additional option. In both cases he ***favored*** raising the payroll tax cap.

…
During an appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press" in June, Dean said an increase to age 70 is no longer necessary, but he would entertain an increase to 68.

He said the way to balance the budget now is to repeal President Bush's tax cuts and restrict spending. He said to balance Social Security, he would consider raising the retirement age to 68 and letting more salary above $87,000 fall under the payroll tax.

On Wednesday, Dean said since his appearance on "Meet the Press," he has consulted with experts and concluded that no increase in the retirement age would be necessary. A better solution, he said, would
be to raise the salary limit.

"I'm willing to take it off entirely if we need to," he said.
…
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-dean-social-security,0,2509226.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=54995&mesg_id=54995

…
MR. DEAN: Yes. Bob, when we first looked at the rules for this debate, we were told that if anybody mentioned our name, that automatically gave us a minute. I'm not going to go back and ask you to change the rules, but I think I'll take 20 seconds just to tell everybody that I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68.
…
http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/politics/candidates_forumtranscript.cfm

…
Dean: … And Social Security, I—the best way to balance Social Security budget right now, other than stop taking the money out for the tax cuts, is to expand the amount of money that Social Security payroll taxes apply to. It’s limited now to something like $80,000. You let that rise. I also would entertain taking the retirement age to 68. It’s at 67 now. I would entertain that.
…
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

Now, quit the smears (and the lies) about Dean. Dean has *never* "denied that he'd ever suggested" this, DemBones. You are either lying, yourself, or you simply didn't do the research on this you should have done.

[CoffeePlease1947]

64. I think you convienced me of the opposite

Dean:

"I also would entertain taking the retirement age to 68."

"I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68."

Now unless you want to dance around the meaning of "entertain", which I would not if he says he is a straight talker, I would take that to mean that he would consider raising the Social Security age.

If that was a quote from an anti-Dean person, I would disregard it. But since it is from a Dean supporter, I must rule out Dean because he WOULD consider raising the age of Social Security.

Mike

[renie408]

65. Maybe he means..

that he would take it out dancing and buy it drinks.

[JohnKleeb]

66. lol

[w4rma]

76. Here is Dean's full position on protecting Social Security

…
These tax cuts are the centerpiece of a radical agenda to destroy Social Security, Medicare, our public schools and our public services through privatization and starvation.

The actions of this President and this administration are threatening the soundness of our Social Security system and of our private pension systems as well. By creating the largest deficits in history and adding irresponsibly to the federal debt, he has given Americans worried about their retirement even more cause for concern.

As President, I will be committed to preserving the integrity and long-term stability of the Social Security Trust Fund. I will oppose privatizing the Social Security System. And I will pursue a responsible economic agenda, and under my plan we will never have to consider raising the retirement age.

The long-term future of Social Security and financial security for all of us in our retirement years depends on ensuring a healthy rate of economic growth over the next several decades. Even a modest increase in long-term growth rates will ease the burden on the Social Security Trust Fund. If we do need to bring more money into Social Security, then I'm prepared to look at reasonable options for expanding the ceiling on payroll taxes.

The best guarantee for our Social Security, therefore, is an economic plan with three basic principles:

First, we must create economic growth and jobs new jobs, more jobs, and better jobs for Americans;

Second, we must return to fiscal sanity, for the sake of future generations, yes but also for the sake of our very national security. We cannot be a world-class country if we are the world's largest debtor;

Finally, we must reform our tax system. When I am President, I will work to repeal the top heavy Bush tax cuts, and replace them with a system that is fairer, and simpler, and places less of a burden on working Americans who live off their paychecks.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7343

[JackSwift]

4. The Post has been

very supportive and uncritical of the Bush Administration and Republicans in general.

[adamcaine]

9. who is dean...really?

A couple of months ago I heard him speak got to meet him and really liked him. His "I stand for the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" line really resonated with me. But all that is coming out on him is really concerning me, especially his environmental record. Ted Rall's column last week really worried me. What person from the "Democratic Wing" has a record like this on polluters? These ten questions have been circulated around but still haven't been answered. I'm beginning to think Dean is full of it, taking advantage of people because few know is real record. -Adam


10 Questions for Howard Dean
1. Why did you support sending Vermont's nuclear waste to the poor,
mostly Hispanic town of Sierra Blanca, Texas, 16 miles from the Mexican
border -- a plan described as "blatant environmental racism" by Paul
Wellstone?

2. Why did the Dean administration increase funding for Vermont's
state colleges by only 7% while you increased funding for prisons by
150%?

3. Why did IBM, the leading polluter in Vermont, receive your
Environmental Achievement Award nine times?

4. What did you mean when you said, "I've had 40 or 45 private
meetings with IBM since I've been governor. And IBM has gotten pretty
much everything they've asked for"?

6. Why did you wait for the courts and legislature to bring about the
civil union bill before you supported it? Why did you sign the bill
in private when you finally did sign it?

7. Why do you oppose the Israeli Labor Party candidate for prime
minister Amram Mitzna's call for unconditional peace talks with the
Palestinians?

8. While you acknowledge that you "haven't condemned Congress for
passing the Patriot Act," Bernie Sanders from your own state of
Vermont is leading efforts in Congress to overturn the Act. Why are
you not supporting Bernie Sanders' efforts and condemning Congress for
its attack on civil liberties?

9. How do you respond to Annette Smith of Vermonters of a Clean
Environment who says: "Dean's attempt to run for president as an
environmentalist is nothing but a fraud. He's destroyed the Agency of
Natural Resources, he's refused to meet with environmentalists while
constantly meeting with developers, and he's made the permitting process
one, big dysfunctional joke. EP under Governor Dean meant Expedite
Permits, not Environmental Protection"?

10. Since you pride yourself on your "fiscal responsibility", why do
you refuse to even consider any decreases in the bloated Pentagon
budget?

[dean4america]

12. let's see... my guess....

the next President of the United States.

as a point of fact on #6, he signed the bill in private so as not to politicize the event or try to make political headway out of it. this has been stated numerous times over. as for asking why he didn't champion civil unions previous to the courts bringing it before him, a) ask that of every other governor; b) comend him for having the balls to sign it in the first place; c) keep in mind that the vast majority of Dean supports KNOW WHERE HE STANDS ON THE ISSUES and HAVE NOT been duped by him or any other such bullshit.

I know exactly where he stands on the issues, and I'm both damn comfortable with his stances and damn proud to support him as my candidate.

[dsc]

21. Maybe if Mr. Rall

had asked gays and lesbians who worked on the issue or had bothered to do so himself he would know the answer to that. Gays and lesbians didn't want politicians commenting on the issue. They wanted the electorate to be faced with a done deal on marriage before the religious right could organize and change the constitution out from under us. Mr. Rall, and the other poster may not like that strategy. But tough shit, they are our rights and thus we get to set our strategy.

Mr. Ralls needs to learn his craft.

[Rose Siding]

13. This should help you out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=108&topic_id=24986&mesg_id=25043

You questions floated by a while back.

[AWD]

17. Hey, there......

...shouldn't you give a link to the material you just stole???

http://www.kucinichdeancompare.com/

Note - I support Kucinich too. But if you're going to attack candidates, at least write your own material.

[DrFunkenstein]

32. Thanks For The Link!

Lots of great questions are raised there by sticking to straight-shooting principles.

[dean4america]

11. not damaging

The first two points he hits - Cuba and campaign finance - are not so important. His rationale for changing his Cuban stance is well-thought out and consistent with his approach (not saying that it's the right stance or not, just that it can be explained away). The campaign finance one makes sense - I'm all in favor of public funding, but when one candidate has 200 million versus 45 million, you do what you have to do to win. I wouldn't begrudge any candidate who opted out.

The retirement age thing is so far in the past that they have to rehash it. The context of Dean's position is wholly different than now, and he's already said he wouldn't change the age.

jim Jordan should also shut the fuck up and worry and his own campaign.

most telling point of the article, and shows where the hack writer is ideologically, is that Jordan is quoted BEFORE Dean - who first gets his quote in para 7.

Not too damaging, but I wish these whores would stick to the truth.

[blm]

53. Trippi has done more than his share

of putting reporters on trumped up stories about Kerry. Jordan should be responding in kind except using real issues instead of who had a petition up first on their website.

[HPLeft]

14. As They Should

Kerry has taken a lot of heat from core Democratic Primary voters for his principled but nuanced (to use Chris Matthews' phrase from the other night) vote to authorize force in Iraq. Dean has surged ahead because of the perception of his stance/attitude against the war.

The poll numbers today are completely based on these kind of perceptions - and this story begins to better define what Dean is and isn't. Is he a straight-talker, or is he, like everyone else to some degree, a conventional politician? Does he embrace campaign finance limits when he doesn't have the fund raising capability, and then reject them when the serious money begins to flow in to his campaign? If so, I don't think that makes him a bad person, especially in comparison to Dumbya (sic) in the White House, but it does remove a bit of the halo from above his head - and that halo has more than a little to do with the current poll numbers.

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. Dean hasn't surged because of his position on Iraq

This is a misconception that Kerry supporters keep using to try to explain to themselves what they don't understand. All his opposition to Iraq did was get his name out there and get people looking closer at him. Clearly they saw something that made them want to support him beyond Iraq.

Want to know why so many people are supporting Dean? Go over to General Discussions and look for Eloriel's post. It explains his support perfectly. It also explains why no amount of bashing posts or talking points will ever make his supporters stop supporting him and switch candidates.

[Kahuna]

46. Are you saying that all of Dean's support is solid?

don't fool yourself. It isn't.

[KaraokeKarlton]

68. The overwhelming majority of it is solid as a rock

and I'm not fooling myself. I just understand the draw of his campaign and why people really support him. You clearly don't understand it. Dean is the only candidate that would not be harmed if Hillary entered the race. Clark entering won't touch him, either. In fact, I don't even think Gore would put much of a dent in Dean's support if he jumped in now. The only Democrat who might neutralize Dean would be Bill Clinton...but he can't run...and I would still support Dean over him, too.

[AWD]

16. Wow, imagine that

Wow. DJCairo writing anti-Dean stuff, and just YESTERDAY he wrote this....

We will need the full strenght of the party to unite behind whoever wins the nomination next summer. However, some seem intent only on dividing. That is a shame.

Hypocrite.

[CMT]

19. read it

only people quoted are Jim Jordan, Kerry, and McCain. Obviously there comments will be somewhat critical since we are in a campaign and McCain becuz he supports Kerry as his friend.

But I didn't think it was so bad since on the embargo issue an article today also implies that Kerry is evolving on this as well and like Dean has not made a final decision. On campaign financing--no decision has been made.

So two of its biggest points are on ideas being considered but not actually decided.

Now that Dean is being preceived as a front runner we will see more of this--it happens every time.

[valniel]

61. Mostly Dean Quotes!

and that is his problem. Quotes: Jim Jordan (John Kerry) 1; Rick Davis (McCain) 2; and Dean 8-10.

This might be a blessing in disguise for two reasons: (1) Dean might become more thoughtful and not get himself in trouble quite so often; and (2) if he gets the Democratic nomination, this has already been rehashed and will not come as big new headline.

But the fact remains that he has taken a great number of controversial stands, e.g., social security, public funding for elections, Cuba, appointment of judges, and several other issues, that he ought to clear up and get behind him!

[unfrigginreal]

20. It's going to be the Kerry show for about a week...

not just in Wapo, but MSGOP has been running their JFKish biography almost as much as they they ran the GWB Headliners and Legends puff piece during the 2000 election. I also hear that Tim The Whore is going to devote an entire hour to Kerry on Sunday's MTP.

None of this is surprising...Kerry is part of the establishment crowd and the establishment crowd will do everything in their power to thwart Dean.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

23. The full hour?!?

Grumble, grumble. Worth millions of dollars. Oh well, hope he does well.

[blm]

26. Why would the establishment prefer liberal Kerry to centrist Dean?

Why would they want the guy who forced BCCI, one of the largest banks in the world, to close down, over the guy who played ball with IBM and energy companies?

Why would they want the guy who exposed CIA drugrunning to a guy who....oh well...his brother did die in Cambodia while "on vacation"...he wasn't a CIA agent, so don't say that.

Guess Dean's family WASN'T part of the establishment when his dad was an executive at DeanWitter, or his grandma and Bush's grandma were close friends.

Nope...Liberal Kerry is the one you choose to fear.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

48. I have to admit...

...that I couldn't keep from placing my hand over my heart during that post.

God Bless America. And God Bless John Kerry.

[JohnKleeb]

49. I like Kerry as well

For Kucinich now honestly but Kerry he is a stand up guy I really like him, lol any friend of the kennedies is a friend of mine.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

51. Dean once had a 50 cent piece in his pocket.....

...that's a Kennedy connection.

[ProfessorPlum]

52. That's a good question

Why IS that?

[Rose Siding]

63. By all means take shots at the dead brother

Very classy

[killbotfactory]

22. These mountains look like molehills

Uh, if Dean want's to tie foriegn policy to human rights, than lifting the embargo after Castro cracked down on dissidents would be a switch in position.

[blm]

24. I wouldn't start any antiDean threads for the next few weeks.

It's going to be tough going when all his supposedly straightshooting remarks come back to haunt him. But, I'm sure Jordan will be blamed for Dean's inconsistencies, because Dean is rarely held responsible for his own statements. It will all be Kerry's fault for noticing.

[Duder]

25. Re: "inconsistencies"

Conservatives use the same argument with Kerry:

http://www.insightmag.com/news/455076.html



Sen. Kerry frequently has found himself staking out positions on all sides of controversial topics.

[blm]

29. Let them prove it.

Conservatives can't discern nuances and loathe anyone who can see an issue with all its complexities.

Those who campaign as "straightshooters" have a responsibility to be a "straightshooter" don't they?

[DrFunkenstein]

33. That's A Great Article, Actually!

Typical two-sided quote:

"At a time of few antiwar protests, Kerry had during a class speech at graduation questioned the wisdom of militarily engaging the North Vietnamese. But he knew the political value of military service. After being graduated from Yale in 1966 following years at prestigious New England and European boarding schools, Kerry did not delay or avoid service in Vietnam."

The GOP smears in the article come off as very forced, and determined to undermine the issue they know Kerry will kick Bush's ass on. The rest sounds like a glowing profile.

[unfrigginreal]

27. Dean's evolving opinions are a hell of a lot less harmful to him...

than Kerry's "finger in the wind" political grandstanding. I'll take a guy that learns by realities over a guy that governs by polls anyday!

[dsc]

28. Just what are your standards

in regards to campaign managers? You had a Cartman style hissy fit when Trippi was quoted saying negative stuff about Kerry yet you seem to like this. Can you please tell me what your standard is in this regard? A more cynical Dean supporter would have suspicions.

[blm]

30. No, I didn't.

My standard is, if someone who campaigns saying they are a "straightshooter" unlike the "other guys" then they had better be shooting straight during their campaign for all the folks who believed it.

It was always going to be Dean's own words and actions that would be his downfall. Give him a pass if you want, but it's not anyone else's fault.

[unfrigginreal]

31. Wishful thinking pardner!

Dean's supporters aren't going to abandon him because he's human and adjusts his opinions as facts change. Why should they? On the other hand, how do Kerry supporters ignore the facts that Kerry supported a war with Iraq for political purposes?

[George_Bonanza]

34. The thing is...

"On the other hand, how do Kerry supporters ignore the facts that Kerry supported a war with Iraq for political purposes?"

The thing is, he didn't "support a war" (misleading simplistic statement) for political reasons.

"Dean's supporters aren't going to abandon him because he's human and adjusts his opinions as facts change."

The thing is, the stuff associated with Dean, like "taking back the country," or "straight-shooting," or a non-politician politician isn't that accurate. Dean changes positions, just like everybody else. Kerry does it. Gephardt does it. Kucinich does it. But they're not the ones selling themselves as the "Democratic wing of the Democratic party."

[unfrigginreal]

37. I know Dean...Dean is a friend of mine...

John Kerry is no Howard Dean.

[George_Bonanza]

39. John Kerry is no Howard Dean?

More like Dean is no Kerry. Dean can notmatch Kerry's colourful and accomplished career, regardless of budgets or civil unions.

[blm]

54. Thank UnderGod! Kerry is the best man for the job of President...

and YES...he is NO Howard "Gary, what do I do?" Dean.

[blm]

36. That's YOUR belief. Kerry supporters understand complexities

and the various issues being dealt with. We understand nuance and ambivalence. Heck, we even listened attentively to Al Gore speeches for years and never felt "bored" because we love to hear policies discussed indepth.

I already know that Dean supporters won't care if he embellished, straddled, or lied about anything. You're down with him no matter what. Fine. There are others who have been undecided, though, who will probably feel differently.

[unfrigginreal]

40. To begin with show me a candidate that hasn't...

"embellished, straddled, or lied about anything." Are you claiming that Kerry is free from these accusations? LOL!

Interesting that you would point out your "attentiveness" to Gore speeches, considering that it's the Gore campaign that is advising your candidate. Thank God those folks didn't just disappear into the woodwork! Where would we be today if it wasn't for Lehane et al.

I'm down with a candidate that is tired of business as usual! Your candidate does not fit that bill while Dean does.

Maybe us Dean supporters aren't as complex as you Kerry supporters but then again maybe we're just more realistic.

[blm]

55. Business as usual? Dean IS GOP business as usual

and his ELEVEN YEAR RECORD of aligning with the GOP in Vermont OVER the progressive Democrats there PROVES IT!

[DrFunkenstein]

38. This Seems Like A Tenor-Setting Article

I was set to bash this article when I started reading it, but as I read it, it occurred to me that this could be a label that sticks - fairly or unfairly.

Right now he is seen as 3 things - straight talker, anti-war, and civil unions. Their relationship to the truth doesn't seem to matter much in this media. Dean is known at times to fudge or omit for convenience, is anti-war only in the fact that he "wouldn't have" voted for the proposed resolution, and seems almost to have been backed into civil unions (which almost every other candidate seems to support; Kerry went toe-to-toe with the Pope on the issue).

You could add two more - the internet and big, boisterous crowds. The first is a real political victory. The second depends on how the media treats these crowds - as an excited army of support or a rabid bunch of anti-Bush, anti-war people. The latter may become, ironically, a real liability in terms of how Dean's polarization is perceived for electability.

Dean has plenty of opportunity to determine his own perception, and Trippi has proven to be a saavy image-maker. So we'll see how they handle these stereotypes as the elections draw near.

Nevertheless, this article's knock to Dean's straight-talking may, in fact, stick. It hardly seems to matter that the issues raised are minor, but their accumulation seems more dangerous. If his switch from containment to disarmament and his flip from being "misled" to attacking anyone "misled" become part of the story, it could be troubling. Or it could matter not at all.

We, as they say, shall see.

[dsc]

43. I as so sick of this BS on civil unions

Invariable straight supporters of Kerry try to tell gay supporters of Dean bizarre tales in regard to civil unions. Well, this gay and many many others, know the truth.

Your bizarre tale that he "had no choice on civil unions" is false. How do I know that? For two reasons. Vermont was the third state with a court decision that said gays and lesbians were entitled to marriage status. The other two amended the constitution. While it is possible to dismiss Alaska as a conservative case. Hawaii can't be so dismissed. Hawaii chose to amend its constitution, for the first time in its history as a state. It has been a reliably liberal, Democratic stronghold for years. Vermont has a lengthy but frankly not very difficult process to amend its constitution. Dean could have simply ran the clock and let it happen. He didn't and that is why Vermont has civil unions and Alaska and Hawaii don't.

Your bizarre tale of Dean's non support of civil unions before the court decision has been explained time and again. Gay and lesbians who actually work on this issue and know the strategy have repeatedly said that public officals were told not to speak out in favor so the religious right wouldn't react. He did exactly that. On the day the decision was handed down he supported civil unions. BTW where is the Kerry sponserd bill or amendment that advocates federal civil unions. I know he can't single handedly pass laws but he can try to. Where, oh where, are these attempts?

Stop with the bizarre tales.

[DrFunkenstein]

44. Please Don't Misquote Me Again

If you are going to use quotation marks, get it right. I did not say that Dean "had no choice." I said that he was almost backed into the issue. Dean was not the one pressing for the issue - which is the absolute truth. Nevertheless, he did have the courage to sign the legislation into law, making him a pioneer in same-sex rights.

My point was not that he wasn't courageous, but that this was hardly the issue that he wanted/wants to be remembered for most. I am sure that he would prefer to be known as the "balanced-budget Governor," rather than the "civil unions Governor." Without stepping away from civil unions (at least in my view), he has been laboring hard to bring his ability to bring the ability to maintain the Vermont budget his signature act.

Side Note: This is honesty, not mindless bashing, but I am not overwhelmed that he balanced the budget in a state with no major metropolitan areas. I think it is commendable (although I don't know offhand what programs he cut), but not amazing.

[renie408]

67. OK, once and for all

Which of the other candidates DON'T support civil unions? I tried to Google it, but it will take me forever to sift through all that crap and figure it out. Civil unions are an important issue for me because they denote tolerance and I think that is important.

[dsc]

70. It depends on what you mean by supporting civil unions

First, three candidates support out right marriage, CMB, Sharpton, and Kucinich. A caveat must be put upon CMB who has equivocated on whether or not she would do so federally or let the states do so individually. Also Kucinich supported, but didn't vote for, DOMA in 96 (he was campaigning for his current seat when it passed).

Second, four candidates support civil unions with pretty much all the rights. Dean, Kerry, Edwards, and Gephardt. Dean would let states pick the name of the thing they chose but they would have to do something to ensure equal rights. All of them would federally recognize with full rights.

Third, one candidate, Lieberman favors civil unions but would grant rights (there are over 1000) on a right by right basis. He has not said which rights would get a yea and which would get a nay.

Finally Graham opposes civil unions entirely.

Source the HRC forum (www.hrc.org) and in Graham's case press coverage from it.

[gottaB]

78. Caveat Lector: Braun's Equivocation

I beleive you've misstated Braun's equivocation at hrc, but by all means people should read the transcripts and questionnaires and decide for themselves.

Carol is absolutely clear and unwavering of her support of gay marriage in answer to the questionnaire, and the reason she cites for supporting gay marriage and having qualms about civil unions is one that she has repeated to the general media.

Here's what Braun said in a press release responding to GWB Rose Garden statement about codifying discrimination against gay marriage (picked up by hrc):

Carol Moseley Braun's Comments on Bush's Attack on Civil Rights
Candidate Decries Attempt by Administration to Deny Human Rights
Issued: July 30, 2003

Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun, Democratic candidate for President, responded to George Bush's plan to use government lawyers to define marriage and take away basic human rights:

This is yet another example of the Bush Administration's obsession with using the full power of the federal government to take away civil liberties. The decision by President Bush to use the resources of the White House to seek legislation that prohibits a fundamental right, the right to marry, sets back the clock on civil rights for all Americans.

Americans in this century expect protection of their fundamental rights and freedoms from the government. Instead, this Administration seems intent on returning to the days when the power of the federal government was used to intrude on the civil rights of Americans. No President has taken such a strong stand against the civil rights of Americans since Woodrow Wilson formally segregated federal Civil Service in 1913.

President Bush needs to reconsider his decision to use government lawyers to craft legislation that specifically discriminates against gay and lesbian Americans. His actions harken to the days of Jim Crow, when government legally required discrimination. It's the wrong direction for the country.

Here is her clarification from the hrc forum:

MS. MOSELEY BRAUN: Again, the federal role has to be that it is constitutionally impermissible to deny a person the right to marry who they want to.

MR. DONALDSON: In that case it wouldn't be up to the states, would it? I mean, if the Constitution requires something. States cannot override that, as we have proved over and over again.

MS. MOSELEY BRAUN: Yes, you are correct. And it is as a matter of law in terms of the constitutional rights of individuals. That is something that is the same wherever you go in the United States, and that ought to be a precedent. That ought to be the law. And I believe it is the law. I believe that the proper interpretation of the Constitution. You see, part of my problem in answering your questions I think is the fact that I served in state and local governments as well, and it is states that issue wedding certificates. In that regard it is up to the clerks to do, actually do the mechanics, the administrative work. In that regard I think it is up to the states to do the work. But I think it is up to the national government to provide the leadership so that there is consistency in the constitutional rights that are accorded all people.

Here is her comment about civil unions from the hrc questionnaire:

The concept of "separate but equal" was properly rejected as inherently problematic by the Supreme Court in the landmark school desegregation case, Brown v. Board of Education. While I applaud the Vermont civil unions law, I am convinced that ultimately inequities will arise if there is one set of laws governing marriage commitments for heterosexuals and another set of laws governing marriage commitments for homosexuals.

On the fundamental of issue of what the role of the federal government should be Braun is unequivocal it seems to me. I can understand having the impression that she equivocated if you didn't consult the questionnaire or listen/read to the end of the questioning by Donaldson. Because it was unclear what she was saying for a few moments. However, given the other evidence and the fact that she clarified her position in response to Donaldson's questioning, if you want to continue to say that she is equivocating, I believe you should spell out exactly what you mean.

[dsc]

81. The questionaires are pdf files

and I can't read those on my system. I will admit to forgetting her last answer though.

[poskonig]

42. Any press is good press.

If everybody was attacking Kerry, then I'd be worried.

There's also a hit piece on Dean by msnbc online right now.

[LizW]

58. You got that right

If this is the best they can come up with, then things are looking good for Dean. I'll worry when they stop trying to undercut him.

[genius]

47. Dean's main problem is remembering his past positions

as in the AFL-CIO debate.

[polpilot]

50. Dean's #'s will rise on this article. Every time a shot has been fired at

Dean since early spring his #'s have risen. Whiny statements from the 'has beens' mean literally nothing in a campaign with the heat of Dean. atch it happen.

Dean ...04'

[Cocoa]

56. the big flaw in this article...

it never really backs up one of its premises, that Dean is campaigning as a straight-shooter.

Maybe he is, but the article never says how that is so, other than to quote Kerry aides.

It says that McCain called his campaign the "truth telling express" but my question is is Dean calling his campaign that too? If not, why mention it?

I actually never thought that was a big theme for Dean, any more than any other candidate. When people here at DU seem to see him that way, I've always thought it was a mistake, since he's inevitably going to moderate his positions.

[Nicholas_J]

59. Expect A LOT more.

Deans hidden, sealed, record as goveror is being reconstructed from availble sources.

And every statement and reversal of statements and positions is being documented for frequent referral in the media during the last few months of the nomination.

Dean got to the position he is in, not because of the quality of his tenure as governor, but by incessant misrepresentation of other candidates, but other candidates are now preparing to bring Deans own flip flops and record to bear, and focus media attention on it for the next five months. The media is fickle and very quick to turn on a media darling if the even get a whiff of blood.

[poskonig]

60. You're delusional.

You are symbolic of the greater problem with the Kerry campaign; you've become so obsessed with Howard Dean that you've lost focus on what this campaign is about. As a result, Kerry is getting stomped by 21 points in New Hampshire. Two points:

1. Being called McGovernite losers over and over and over again by the media isn't exactly being their "darling."

2. Dean got where he is by giving focused message, organizing support effectively, and having a good "rhythm" where America and the Democratic Party is.

[JohnKleeb]

62. heh Dean is far from McGovern

and also people forget that Nixon although he was a fuckhead was no right winger either. No offense but you got to admit the media coverage has helped your campaign for the good no matter what the connation may be. At least you get mentioned :). How you think we Kucinich supporters feel? Just trying to be fair.

[renie408]

69. While I essentially agree with what you are saying...

he has a point. This is why I wish that instead of just saying that anything that is remotely anti-Dean is 'bull', that Dean supporters would come up with cogent ways to defuse this stuff. What you write sounds real good, but it does NOTHING to counter the things that these people are saying about Dean. You cannot just keep saying over and over that he has a focused message when there are many examples of his having changed his stance repeatedly. I have seen several on this board in the last week or so. Instead of replying with, "No he doesn't.", why not show ME, a person who has not completely made up their mind, HOW he hasn't changed his position.

I keep saying that I am NOT anti-Dean. But I am telling you, he does not give me a good feeling. There seems to be lots of ammo for attacking him and the biggest defense I see is "He is a real straight shooter who knows how to take a stand." THAT DOESN'T TELL ME ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN OPINION. And if I feel this way, lots of other people must feel this way, too. And even more will feel this way in a year.

[dsc]

71. here are some on the things mentioned here

On SS some 10 years ago, before Clinton balanced the budget and when deficits were more as a % of GDP than they are now, Dean supported raising the age to 70. He was hardly alone. Now with a different set of facts he has come to a different conclusion. He never, I repeat never, said on MTP that he would raise the age to 68, he said he would ENTERTAIN DOING SO. He has decided not to. It is not flip flopping to think about doing something and then not to do it.

On Cuba, He said he would remove the sanctions before Fidel cracked down on dissedents. If you told your son he could borrow the car, then you found out he drank a fifth of booze, have you flip flopped if you decide not to let him have the car? Castro, through this action, has made it impossible to lift those sanctions without appearing to reward that behavior. No one would lift the sanctions now.

On civil unions. I already addressed that in this thread.

I think that is all that was here.

[renie408]

79. And none of that

Seems that bad to me. While everyone prizes the ability to take a stand, we are going to screw ourselves if we do not allow our politicians to be flexible and change as situations change. No, I am not talking about waffling, I am talking about adjusting over time for the inevitable changes that occur.

[Nicholas_J]

72. Dean did not get focused

Again, he attacked a bunch of people who were not fighting.

Dean will have to deal with a lot of attacks on his continual changes in stance, and his massively Bush-Like record as governor of Vermont before the primaries begin. Dean has take his shots at everyone else, adn is going to taking gang shots from eight other candidates and the entire national press following that up very shortly afterwards.

Dean is in the exact same political position that Bill Bradley was in August/September of 2000, and where Paul Tsongas was in August/ September of 1991. Up front. Five months later they fell far back , by the nomination they were not even an afterthought.

Deans record IS his record. He brought in a massively polluting industry to Vermont, but his own campaign glorifies his environmental record. Fortunately for those interested in the truth, No environmentalists glorify his record:

Winooski River
Are IBM and Vermont's Agency of Natural Resources putting a river and its people at risk?



Known pollutants entering the Winooski River from the IBM plant:

Heavy metals lead, nickel, chromium, cobalt, copper, zinc, and silver

Excessive phosphorous

Organic wastes

Illegally excessive cyanide, iron, selenium, hexavalent chromium, and aluminum

vinyl chloride, a known human carcinogen, and possible carcinogens like trichloroethylene and tetrachloroethylene

Overview: There is no question that IBM's Essex River, Vermont, plant is polluting the Winooski River. At issue is a permit authorizing how much pollution IBM can legally dump into the river. As proposed, the permit allows IBM to dump excessive levels of heavy metals, potentially carcinogenic chemicals, and deoxygenating wastes. The authorized levels of these pollutants would violate state water quality standards and cause unforeseen harm to the Winooski River.

http://www.clf.org/advocacy/winooski_river.htm


"Under Dean the Act 250 process and the Agency of Natural Resources (ANR) have lost their way," Kaplan charges. "Dean created the myth that environmental laws hurt the economy and set the tone to allow Act 250 and the ANR to simply be permit mills for developers."

http://www.vce.org/deanenvironmentomya.html


Medicaid cuts will affect thousands of Vermonters
January 23, 2002

By DAVID MACE

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Tens of thousands of Vermonters would see their state health care benefits rolled back or cut off completely under Gov. Howard Dean’s proposed budget, which seeks to wring $16.5 million in savings from Medicaid.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41169.html

Want a thousand more examples of Dean harming the environment, people, the disabled, the elderly...

You can have them. they are all available, they are all things Dean REALLY did, and none are defensable from any political point of view but a Republican point of View.


Like these:

By the same token, though, he also supported raising taxes — as long as it wasn’t the income tax — when school funding crises and other issues arose that required it.

Throughout, he held a tight rein on state spending, repeatedly clashing with the Democrats who controlled the Legislature for most of his years as governor.

Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

Dont like it, prove that Dean did not do it, and that it was justifiable to do it, using progressive, or even centrist democratic party principals.


Attack if you want, but you prove your candidate has NO substance whatsoever, and if required to actually debate someone on the issues and on his record, will possibly fail miserably.

AS far as I can tell, Dean is simply, as Vemront Progressive Michael Badamo put it:


*Howard Dean:

Howard Dean is clearly the runt of this litter. Dean is shallow, glib, mean spirited and overly ambitious yet Vermonters continue to reward him with term after term. On issues that matter, Dean is regressive and responsive only to the needs of elite vested interests. Taking his lead from the new generation of grossly hypocritical, Bill Clinton type Democrats, Dean mouths the ancient words of Democratic Party idealism but then repudiates labor and the poor confidant that they have no where else to go. Big money motivates Howard Dean, a spoiled brat rich kid from Long Island who always gets his own way.

Dean has never had serious opposition in any election campaign. He slid into the Lieutenant Governor's office and took over the top job when Snelling died. He has won easily since because Republicans like to vote for him while their own Party candidates have been either little known or hopelessly right wing.

Of our six modern governors over the last thirty five years, Deane Davis gets my vote for number one, definitely a good guy. I'll rank Phil Hoff a not too shabby number two because Vermont really needed a good kick in the ass. From there, they go down fast. Dick Snelling gets a grudging number three because he represented stability and administrative competence. We'll give Madeline Kunin number four simply because she was less of a snake oil salesman than Tom Salmon, our choice for number five. Howard Dean, of course, is the worst in modern memory.

http://www.sover.net/~auc/6govs.htm

The progressives are NOT socialists nor are they particularly FAR to the left, but Dean's covservativism drove thousands to the Vemront Progressive Party because they viewd Dean as DU supporters view the DLC. Going to far to the right and being massively accomodatin to the Repubican Party.

When People ask, Why was Dean elected 5 times. This the the answer, WHen his conservative masters snapped the whip. Dean came running.

[Nicholas_J]

73. Now than Hillary CLinton has decided to run

Things are going to CHANGE a great Deal. Especially for Dean, whos polling numbers drop massivelt when Hillary's name is added to the mix.


Former US first lady Hillary Clinton is planning to enter the US Presidential race in 2004, reports say.

The New York Senator is expected to meet advisers - including her husband and ex-President Bill Clinton - next week to discuss the decision.

Mrs Clinton announced at the start of the summer that she would not compete for the Democratic nomination, even though she enjoyed huge support within the party.

She was expected to run for the White House in 2008.

Her rethink has been prompted by the sudden drop in support for President George Bush, whose problems in Iraq and with the economy have made him look vulnerable, according to veteran US political commentator Richard Reeves.


http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-12752414,00.html

[dsc]

74. care to sight some polls

I know the ones I have seen show Dean losing less of his support than any other of the double digit candidates if Hillary gets in. I will admit though that this is before the latest surge he had.

[DrFunkenstein]

77. If I'm Not Mistaken, Because Most of Dean's Support Is Male

That's what I remember from the poll, and not a general indication around here (so don't bother to yell at me). It seemed that Dean lost the least because mostly women switched, and it didn't affect him much.

[DJcairo]

75. Hillary wil not run

as she stated just yesterday in Syracue at the State Fair. This is a distraction caused by Richard Reeves who is out of the loop. He is a good writer but he has no idea what's actually going on in the Dem field right now.

[4dsc]

80. ." Dean said he has no qualms about "changing his mind"

when facts warrant it.

Sound's good to me!!

[DrFunkenstein]

83. Uh, Are You A Fake dsc?

:shrug: