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If you don't want Nader to run, vote for Dennis Kucinich

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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 03:46 PM
Original message
If you don't want Nader to run, vote for Dennis Kucinich
The answer to the Nader problem is simple. If we run a conservative, Nader and the Greens will want to present an alternative. If we run someone who represents the core values of the Democratic Party (such as Kucinich), Nader and the Greens (who all agree with these core values that Kucinich represents) will not be a problem. Nader has already said that if Kucinich gets the nomination, he'll back him. Our actions will speak louder than our words. Let's take the action that will keep Nader from running. Let's pick Dennis for our nominee.
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't care if he runs.
I doubt he'd get the same support that he got in 2000. So let him run if he wants.
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CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. that's one solution
though also according to Al Hunt in his WSJ column today, he has it from good souces that Nader wouldn't run if Dean is the nominee too.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Nader doesn't like Dean and neither do most Greens
I see the Greens (including one Green candidate) all the times at the peace rallies and most place Dean as the worst of the candidates.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. funny most people I see at peace rallies
are Dems....
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. That appears not to be true.
Politics1.com just ran a story "NADER MAY PASS ON '02 RUN IF DEAN IS DEM NOMINEE"

A relevant quote:

However -- in what must be good news to the Democrats -- Nader told the Wall Street Journal on Friday that he would probably not run if Howard Dean is the Democratic nominee. "Reading his position papers sounds eerily similar to what we've been saying. He speaks clearly … not in Senate-ese … and projects vigor. We need a macho Democrat,"
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. The history of Nader and the Greens at the national level
And Dean and the Progressives at the state level, are strikingly similar.

The Greens gained much moomentum as a result of reaction to the New Democrat, centrists moving too far to the right for Liberal Democrats, making too many ocncessions to the right, while the Vermont Progressive Party picked up a great deal of support in Vermont as a result liberal democrats considering Dean to be too conservative, in fact farther to the right of the Clinton's New Democrats.

This is why I belive it is likely that many more Democrats will not vote for Dean, than turned to the Greens in 2000.

Dean split the Democratic and Progressive party to such a degree in Vermont, that Republicans now have a firmer grip on the state and are likely to retain it. By 2000, about ten percent of the Democratic Party's membership left to join the Progressives. By 2002, that number reached 25 percent.

Dean's influence on the Democratic is proving highlt divisive.

In 2000, Anthony Pollina ran against Dean and Ruth Dwyer, picking up ten percent of the vote for Governor that year, and all of the loss came from Democrats who decided not to support Dean. Dean had support from Republicans during his tenure as governor, but thisrmained relatively static. It was losses to the Progressive Party that cost Dean 20 percent of the support he had from Democrats in his earlier election campaigns. For the first 3 elections Dean recieved about 60 percent of the vote, but in 2000 Dean barely squeaked by with 50.5 percent of the vote. Up until the last week or two of Denas last run for Governor, all political analysts, and the Dean camppaign itself feared that Dean was not going to win that election by thr required 50 percent, and that the election would be decided by secret vote of the Vermont Legislature. In 2002, when Anthony Pollina ran for Lt Governor, he took 25 percent of the vote.


Dubie wins race for lt. governor
Shumlin concedes hotly contested three-way battle
By Brent Hallenbeck

Republican Brian Dubie claimed victory in a heated three-way race for lieutenant governor early this morning.

Democrat Peter Shumlin conceded victory to Dubie at about 12:20 a.m. Dubie claimed victory about 10 minutes later.

Dubie had 41 percent of the vote with 94 percent of precincts shortly before 2 a.m. Democrat Peter Shumlin was second with 32 percent, while Progressive Anthony Pollina had 25 percent. The trio vied for the state’s No. 2 job vacated by Democrat Doug Racine, who ran for governor.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/election02/Hallenbeck6.htm

What happened in this race was a Republican win, because the Democrat and Progressive vote was split with Progressives now accouting for almost 40 percent of the members of liberal/democratic type political ideals.

Liberal politic has lost big time as a result of Deans furtther moving the party to the right, with his ideas of fiscal conservatism, as opposed to the centrist ideas of fiscal responsibility based on progressive economic policies. Add up the Demcratic and Progressive Votes In Vermont in the campaign for Lt Governor, and these two policies based on liberal ideas, actually took 57 percent of the vote.

But the Republican took office with 41 percent of the vote.

Liberal Democratic Party Leaders attribute the growth of the Progressive Party In Vermont, to losses from the Democratic Party, and this is is by and large blamed on Dean;s conservatism, and his alliances with conservatives while he was Governor.

Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) — Howard Dean may be many things, say those who worked with him over nearly a dozen years as Vermont governor, but an elitist liberal is hardly one of them.

He’s actually a lot more moderate — many would say conservative — than the reputation he’s built during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination...

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee...

Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. "The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative," Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may_03/may_19/news/reg_vt0519a.asp


Largely silent, as the primary season heats up, has been Vermont's Progressive Party, formed in the mid-1990s at least partly in response to Dean's influence on the Democratic Party. A spokesman at the Montpelier office said that the party has not endorsed a Democratic candidate and would not comment on the record about Dean.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A17514-2003Nov27¬Found=true


From the start, Dean navigated a triangular course between the two parties, clashing often with the Democrats over taxes and spending -- and helping to drive many liberal-left Democrats into the arms of the Progressive Party and of Representative Bernie Sanders, Congress's lone socialist. Inheriting a fiscal crisis from Snelling, Dean slashed the budget and dramatically reduced taxes. During the 1990s, Dean repeatedly unsheathed his veto pen, and he often allied with a growing contingent of conservative Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans to outmaneuver the Democratic leadership on issues such as taxes.

In his fiscal conservatism, Dean has been guided for more than a decade by a behind-the-scenes kingmaker named Harlan Sylvester, a senior executive at Salomon Smith Barney in Burlington who chairs Dean's council of economic advisers. Sylvester praises Dean for forcing through a dramatic tax cut during his first year in office, over the objections of "the left of the party wanted to soak the wealthy," Sylvester explains, leaning back in his chair in an expansive office just off Lake Champlain. "One-quarter of 1 percent of Vermonters pay 16 percent of state income taxes," he says. "That's 829 people, and a lot of them are clients of mine. Four of them moved out of state rather than pay Vermont taxes."

http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/13/dreyfuss-r.html

Again, I beleive that Dean's candidacy will produce a far wider split between Democrats, as his political platform isself is furtther to the right of the centrist compomises that brought Bill Clinton into the White House. Clinton's Centrist politics split off about five percent of those people who would have once found their natural allies in the Democratic Party. Dean's platform and ideological bent brought a small, liberal third party, almost totally based on the political career of one man, Bernie Sanders, a party which was not expected to recieve more than three percent when its candidate ran against Dean in 2000, to a party who's candidate for Lt Governor of Vermont was able to recive 25 percent of the vote of the entire electorate, and more than 40 percent of voters who would once have likely voted Democrat.

This, to me is an indication that Dean has had far greater an adverse effect on the Democratic Party, and If Nader decides to run, it is Very likely that the Greens will take a far greater percentage of the vote than they did in 2000. It is not out of the question that the Greens could make a showing, as good or better than Perot did in 1992, doing to Democrats, what Perot did to Republicans.

Dean seems to be very much the divider, not the uniter, and his campaign, if nominated, could do to Democratic Politics, what he did in Vermont. From the look of it, Vermont will likely remain firmly in Republican hands for decades to come, as Deans conservatism is such that many liberal democrats and progressives simply are not likly to vote for him, and his particular brand of fiscal discipline.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes. Let's court the high-maintainance vote.
The people that would rather get none of what they want than some of what they want.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. What would we get from Dean?
Non-profit universal healthcare? No.
Less money given to the obscene war industry? No.
An end to the vicious drugs war? No.
Full civil rights for LGB people? No.
Our kids pulled out of Iraq alive and whole? No.

So just what is it that we'd get?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. For starters, a president who definately believes in global warming.
This is better than what we have now.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Do any of the candidates not believe in that?
It's a bit sad, don't you think, to advocate voting for someone because they're not an ignoramus on some subject?

How about something both unique to him and vital to us?
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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree Kucinich would eliminate the Nader problem.
Kucinich is our (the Democrats) best choice for several reasons. He represents our core values, which no other Democratic candidate does. And some candidates (most actually) are too far to the right.

Dean is doing a good job on the anti-Iraq war issue, but he needs to come around on reducing spending on the Corporate Military Empire, working for peace by admitting we have no business in Iraq, and supporting the single-payer healthcare plan to provide universal coverage. Every American has a right to healthcare!
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eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Um, sorry, no.
I don't live and die by polls but t'would seem to me that most Nader voters are already backing Kucinich. Do you really think there is a significant number of Naderites out there who are breathlessly waiting for him to get in or out or to see who he endorses. If anything, he's lost major credibility (which is a shame, really.) And since Kucinich's standings in the polls are less than stellar, I'm not too optimistic for his chances. If he can't get anything remotely significant among Dems, what makes you think he'd be able to beat the 'pubs?

eileen from OH

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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Kucinich got 17 percent of the vote in the Central Cal. party meeting
And he came in second place.

What really worries me about the supporters of other candidates is that they are deluding themselves about the depth of support for Kucinich or another populist among the people who are actually going to vote.

Gallup and Zogby don't represent the people who are going to caucus.

Most people (more than half) who are going to participate in the process haven't yet made up their minds.

The field is wide open.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. I will not be blackmailed into supporting the second worse candidate
Because Mr Ego dares me to support a winner.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. So, why are you supporting the Republican on the ballot?
I'd rather support someone who embodies the principles that made the Democratic Party great rather than some Republican who thinks he can remake the Democratic Party into the Republican Party. We need to kick out the Republicans besfore the primaries start.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. excuse me?
Edited on Fri Dec-19-03 08:07 PM by DinoBoy
Kucinich is a liar (re: Dean's position on Iraq exit) and an opportunist (re: abortion). I'd rather have your version of a "Republican" than a liar any day of the week.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I disagree with your opinion and

wonder when you think Kucinich lied and why you think he's an opportunist when he had begun changing his abortion views long before considering entering the presidential race.

Dean, by the way, lied at the AFL-CIO debate when he said he'd never supported raising the Social Security retirement age. He had to issue a statement the next day saying he "misspoke." And his position on the war has been so inconsistent , evolving as much as his story of how he got his draft deferment, that it is no wonder that anyone could be confused about what it is on any given day. I don't believe Kucinich would lie about Dean's position but I can understand how he wouldn't be able to keep up with the flip flops in it.

Dean also lied when he said Bush's records aren't open, when they had been moved to the state archives some time back.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. Coincidentally, that's why I won't vote for the 2nd worst Dem - Dean
He's pro-death penalty, pro-NAFTA, pro-staying in Iraq, pro-big military, pro-no accountability for the Pentagon, pro-space militarization, pro-keeping people out of Social Security until age 67 or beyond, and anti-universal health care getting 100% of America covered, right now, for what we're already paying.

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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-03 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. Kucinich will take most or all of the Green vote
That makes him able to beat Bush with only previous Gore voters, even though he'll get plenty of disgusted previous Bush voters anyway.

Kucinich is not only the strongest candidate we could run against Bush, he's also the best "opposite" of Bush.

We will choose to make this election truly a referendum on Bush by nominating Kucinich.
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tedoll78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
16. I love extortion.
Edited on Sat Dec-20-03 06:53 AM by tedoll78
Such a great way to get votes.

"Vote for me, or the country gets it!" (jabs gun at country's temple)

Nader can rot in hell. I will dance in the streets on the day I hear of his death, the accomplice.

edit: That's an ugly thing to say, and I don't mean it. I'll be happy when he retires.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Check your facts please
Nader isn't holding the gun. He's saying that either you disarm the guy with the gun, or he'll try.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. extortion?? so, what's it gonna be?
If Nader has the ability to extort anything, why do you people claim he's so irrelevant and powerless?

If an irrelevant and powerless man can cause the downfall of the Democratic party, just how weak is the Democratic party?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. I will not be blackmailed into supporting a primary candidate.
Ralph can go snipe hunting, for all I care; when Mr. Nader becomes a Democrat, perhaps I will care what his opinion is on the subject of who Democrats should support. Until then, he's just another mouthy outsider with a two-bit opinion. :shrug:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. good news
Nader wont likely run if Dean is the nominee. There's a thousand other better reasons to support Kucinich other than this. It would be a good thing though because I am sure that he wouldnt run if Kucinich is the nominee. Just sayin. I have a thousand other reasons to support Kucinich other than this. I may be left and idealistic as they get but damnit I am ABB, reluctantly I may add, but I'll do it.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. And yet Greens are being browbeaten into voting Dem
Our system sucks. We need to look at other nations, like Ireland, to see what alternatives we can put in place.
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. post of the year
thank you for revealing the hypocrisy by the ABB crowd.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Ireland is a parliamentary republic.
You would have to amend , if no re-write outright, the Constitution in order to have a system like Ireland has.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. "You would have to amend , if no re-write outright, the Constitution"
It looks that way on casual inspection, I agree, but think about it more. You'll see it's not so. Just as there's no requirement that political hacks actually oppose one another in either country.

Since Congress alone has authority over how it operates --we can see how much good THAT's done us!-- they could very easily declare that they're going to operate on a party (aka 'parliamentary') system and simply do that.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
24. Nader's preparing to run if Dean gets the nomination
The Dean momentum is the reason Nader's formed is starting to prepare for a run. However, he has said he won't run if Kucinich gets the nomination.
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flpeach Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Not True . . . .
NADER MAY PASS ON '04 RUN IF DEAN IS DEM NOMINEE

"Nader told the Wall Street Journal on Friday that he would probably not run if Howard Dean is the Democratic nominee. "Reading his position papers sounds eerily similar to what we've been saying. He speaks clearly … not in Senate-ese … and projects vigor. We need a macho Democrat," said Nader."

http://www.politics1.com/
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. ummm...I think it is true
The quote you give doesn't sound right at all. Dean was already riding high and the presumptive nominee when Nader kickstarted his exploratory committee. Why would he do that if Dean is okay by him?
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Don't trust Dean not to back track
Nader might also think, Dean needs a little incentive to stay progressive..I already disagree with Dean on military expenditures,Health Care,Nafta. It might be a positive influence on Dean to keep him honest. Certainly, for Nader to tell the story of Single Payer might cause Dean to see the light.
He already said, as I read, Single Payer is the best solution, but I won't fight for it. True or not? Great leadership, there.!
Nader, lets keep Dean progressive. He needs that tug..
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wanderingbear Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
26. I know Nader..
Been doing his campain for 10 years.

Dont know Dennis Kucinich.
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Any hippie worth the title
should know Dennis. www.kucinich.us

And folks, there wouldn't be a Nader or a Green Party if the Dems hadn't deserted their core beliefs. This was the party that once lead in the areas of social reform. Now it brings you NAFTA! :eyes:
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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
27. Nader was a Democrat!
A few decades ago, Nader was at the Democratic Convention and was trying his best to get podium time, but they locked him out. A similar thing happened to our former Governor of Pennsylvania, Bob Casey. They kept him off the podium because he was pro-life (not a very good reason in my opinion).

If the Democrats want to be the "Party of the people", they are going to have to learn to include everyone and stop excluding whole segments of our society. It's about POWER folks! Currently, the pro-empire people have control of both major parties, and they don't want someone like Dennis Kucinich to crack their glass palace! That is exactly why the corporate media pays as little attention to Dennis as possible.
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wanderingbear Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
29.  I remember that..
He was practiclly laughed out..
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
34. well...lessee...
Nader decides on what to do LONG before any votes are cast...so...

:shrug:
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
37. I don't get why Nader likes Dean so much
Gephardt is anti-NAFTA. Kerry is very good with energy concerns and environment. He's not too shabby on small business either. Yet all of Nader's love goes to Dean, the man who drove the progressives out of his own state Democrat, and has admittedly conservative fiscal policies. His social policies are not that liberal ("A" rating from NRA, "C" in medicinal marijuana, etc.) If I was Nader, and I was committed to making Green-ism the norm in the Democratic party, I would run against Dean.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
39. A kick for public financing!
https://www.kucinich.us/contribute.php

The BFEE is the problem - Kucinich is the answer.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota
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