So can we talk about cougars, then?

[astral]

When I first heard the term 'cougar' as referring to an older hot woman, actually I'm not exactly sure what the exact definition is, I was kind of creeped-out by the term. I saw in the Admin forum it was questioned about it being offensive. Is it? Do DU'ers as men / women see it as a put-down?

I suppose I should try to do a POLL but I've never done one before and too lazy to look into it now ....

I just want to know what people think.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I've never seen it as offensive.

I think it's rather clever, really...

But that's just me.

:hi:


Oh and BTW, you need a star to post a poll...

[astral]

29. oh that's right ... I used to have a star ....

I suppose I'll get another one soon, now that you mention it !

[Major Nikon]

2. I've heard the thought police sometimes refer to it as offensive

I'm not sure if this would pass the reasonable person standard.

[seabeyond]

13. so, if you feel it is offensive you a) are a thought police. b) not allow to share opinion

only those ok with the term get to say they are ok. those that think it is an offensive term, needs to shut up or you are accused as a thought police?

[Major Nikon]

15. I'll go with a 3rd option

If someone feels the term is offensive, I'd say that's a strong indicator they like to read too much into things and take offense to trivial matters way too easily. You know, very much like the way you reacted to my post and then proceeded to tell me (erroneously) exactly what I meant. As far as whether I'd consider them the thought police, that really depends more on how they respond when someone else uses the term. If they want to express an opinion that they are personally offended by the term, more power to them. People are offended by different things and there's nothing wrong with that. That's human nature. However, if they try to pass themselves off as reasonable on the subject and tell others how they should or shouldn't use the term, I'm probably going to consider them as someone who is within the ranks of the thought police. As far as telling someone to shut up here on DU, I would never do that. That's the job of the mods and I have no interest in being one.

[seabeyond]

17. but i asked you a question? how is that reading too much into something?

isnt that suggesting that i am in a quandry with what you posted, hence, i am looking for further clarification to better understand your position? arent i doing what i am suppose to be doing?

whereas (now i am just playing), you declare the reason a person may be offended with term is limited and equal thought police. i can only go off what you post. people may see a reason it is offensive, that you have not even recognized.

btw... i did enjoy one of your posts (i believe it was you) on harassment, assault in another thread.

[Major Nikon]

22. Another way of saying is your inferrences were incorrect

I declared I've seen the thought police take offense to the term. That doesn't mean that everyone who takes offense to it is a card carrying member of Thinkpol. I thought I explained this with my last post, but since you still don't seem to be clear on what I meant, I'll use discrete mathematics to further clarify.

Consider a member of Thinkpol as group A. Consider someone who takes offense to the term as group B. Now certainly a member of group A has to be a member of group B, but it would be very wrong to assume that a member of group B has to be a member of group A. The reason is because group A is really just a subset of group B. The following drawing explains this relationship:


The reason why you read too much into it is because you made incorrect inferences, which is really the essence of what 'reading too much into it' means. I would never suggest this is outside the bounds of proper discussion. Back and forth dialog asking questions and clarifying one's positions is what reasonable discussion is all about.

[seabeyond]

25. that was really unnecessary and i stopped reading after the first couple sentences

i dont think you got my post.

[alphafemale]

3. Being seen as attractive by younger men can not possibly be a bad thing.

I don't care what you call me.

:rofl:

[TorchTheWitch]

6. pffftt...

As if these younger men are somehow an authority judging middle-aged women according to whether or not they are WORTHY of them being sexually interested in such women. Yet that isn't supposed to be perceived as insulting???

I most certainly DO care what insulting terms are used to me, and I also care what insulting terms are used to label all women or groups of women. As should all women.

[TorchTheWitch]

4. It doesn't matter if it is intended as a put-down

Calling a woman a "babe" or a "chick" is insulting terminology but not necessarily intended as a put-down. These are objectifying terms. The term "cougar" is not only objectifying it is also ageist. Why it even needs to be explained is bizarre.

[grasswire]

5. I thought it meant slightly "predatory"

Blanche Devereaux style.

No?

[petronius]

7. It's not a term that I personally consider offensive in most usages, but I recognize

that there are perfectly valid opinions to the contrary. So, it's one of those things that I wouldn't say to/about/around anyone who I didn't know would view it as inoffensive (and of course, as a 40 y.o. man, it's just not a word I ever seem to have a need for). And since DU is a big, open, inclusive community, I prefer to try and avoid the giving of offense, even to small subsets of DUers, when that avoidance really costs me nothing...

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

8. I think we can all agree to this 'cougar'

[TreasonousBastard]

9. .I never thought of it as offensive, but...

what term would be acceptable to those offended that would describe a woman who prefers, and actively seeks, younger men for sex?

Or maybe we shouldn't mention it at all-- just assume that anything that refers to female sexuality or body parts is offensive to someone we should never, ever offend.

Just don't mention them at all-- act as if women don't exist since anything you say will end up in a monstrous flame war with one or two of the offended class trying mightily to shut you down.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. dupe

[HopeHoops]

11. I think "cougar" is a rather complimentary term. Maybe we should ask Mrs. Robinson.

[seabeyond]

12. an older woman not comfortable in her skin trying to be younger basically paying a young man

to be with her? insulting?

lol

i feel the same about the same scenario with the older man, too. the equivalent for male i guess would be sugar daddy. enticing little girl with some candy? jewels, car, money.

yes

i see it as an insult.

and to each their own.

[Major Nikon]

16. So an older woman who dates a younger man a) is uncomfortable and b) has to pay for sex

I can't agree, but it's interesting you'd read that much into it.

[seabeyond]

18. no. the women defined as a cougar are just that. not all women

hence why the term of cougar is offensive. they crete older women having sex with younger as this pathetic woman.

[HappyMe]

19. I hardly think it is pathetic!

Cougars do not pay for sex. They are sucessful, attractive women. If you are going to take off your clothes in front of a younger man, you have to be damn comfortable in your skin.

Who is the 'they' you are talking about?

[seabeyond]

20. yes. they are paying. maybe not as in prostitution. but like the sugar daddy, yes

they are paying.

and you are allowed to think it is not pathetic. i do. that is cool

[Major Nikon]

23. Then I'd say your definition doesn't match mine

You seem to equate 'cougar' with 'sugar daddy' when the gender roles are reversed, and I'm not convinced this is a good comparison. I see the term loosely used to define any woman who dates or pursues younger men. Personally I don't use the term, not because I'm concerned some might find it offensive, but because I think it's silly. Some people don't use age as a primary consideration when choosing a mate. I don't see the need to try and label someone like that if there is a large age difference, but some do.

[seabeyond]

24. i can agree with you on the second part of your post. i dont use it

i dont care about it. and it is peoples choice. and yes, i see it presented just as i see sugar daddy presented. so we see the definition differently.

[HappyMe]

14. I don't find it offensive.

Older women fancying younger men - I don't see the bad.

[blueamy66]

35. I find it a problem when the younger man is much too young

to understand what they are getting themselves into.

Otherwise, have fun!

[bluedigger]

21. The term is just descriptive of a pattern of behavior.

Behavior common enough to require categorization in the vernacular. I suppose one could object to the behavior itself on moralistic grounds, but I don't. The offense lies in how the term is applied on a specific case by case basis and depends on the feelings of the accused. Some of my female friends are pretty proud of it, but as a 51 year old male, I can't get on board...:shrug:

[Iggo]

26. Any nickname can be offensive to anyone.

Put differently, EVERY nickname IS offensive to SOMEONE.

And so I try to live by the rule "Know Your Audience".

[Chan790]

27. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Not the term "cougar", the debate over the term.

It's not exactly a pejorative universally, some people are attracted to or seeking "cougars" as it were, while others consider themselves to be "cougars" or are attempting to take pride-ownership of the term...possibly more of a fetishization or subcultural scene? While fetish might be creepy to some people, specifically if they're in the target cadre of that fetish* and have no desire to be a fetish for someone elses' sexuality (Let's be frank, it's objectification. All root-level initial attraction psychologically is though.**), I'm not sure fetish on its' own is harmful to its' object in the anonymous universal sense***. Likewise, there are subcultural scenes dedicated specifically to "cougar/cub" interactions in which all parties are willing participants even as the scene itself might be objectionable to outsiders. I'm unwilling to say that there is no societal harm from that because I've never contemplated that there might be and I could be blind to it. If "cougar" is offensive on either of those grounds though, then a lot of other unseemly but legal sexual-subcultures and fetishes have to be examined critically. The contrary cry would raise that fetish-shaming and scene-shaming are no more appropriate than slut-shaming or any other sort of shaming...even label-shaming where any party embraces the label and it's being applied correctly by its' definition.

While I understand why people would be offended over it (including some people I'd consider friends), there is a part of me that thinks that we're getting into a gray area here between self-expression of one party and the oppression of another.

Thoughts? Did I miss the mark here?

*-A fact I can understand...I have a female friend who is completely disgusted by the number of men who are seemingly only attracted to her because she's Japanese. I likewise am skeeved out by woman whose attraction to me seems predicated even-partially in the fact I'm fat...in fact I refuse to date "chubby-chasers" as it were.

**-Which raises it's own interesting question: "Do we have a right to control why or how other people are attracted to us or are we limited to control over why or how we are attracted to other people? Both? Neither? ("Neither" seems absurd but for sake of equality of options, I'm including it.)" Think about it for a second before answering, it has interesting consequences into personal autonomy for both parties in all cases.

***-as opposed to the specific sense. When I tell someone specifically and clearly that I'm not interested and they continue to press the issue, that's sexual harassment.

[KamaAina]

28. Certainly. Do you know of any in the Silicon Valley area?

:-)

[astral]

30. I guess the partial double-standard was what I was thinking of.

In reading all the responses, the comments that a woman would 'pay' for sex with a younger man, whereas older men being attracted to younger women just seems natural, no label required, unless we think they are 'sugar-daddies' needing to buy their way into the younger woman's heart.

So I see a little bit of a double standard going on with MY perceptions of the term, but not everyone feels that way. I don't care for the term but it's still fairly new to me.

[MiddleFingerMom]

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[RedCloud]

32. I've been called a "tiger" and I don't mind at all.

:woohoo:

[dawg]

33. Personally, I avoid the term because I think it is offensive ...

TO COUGARS!!!

[Pithlet]

34. The problem is it doesn't always mean hot older woman

It's often used to belittle and demean older women. It implies that the woman is pathetic and desperate. That is when it is offensive.