Question for anyone who's ever read a Heinlein novel

[Orrex]

How far did you get into it before his smug and unchecked libertarian preaching made you want to vomit?

I made it about 4.5 pages into Friday and then had to reach for the airsick bag.


I have nothing against politics in writing, but when the "story" is nothing but a vehicle for repeating one's politico/economic sloganeering, I say no thanks.

[MicaelS]

1. I guess you never tried to read

Starship Troopers or The Moon is a Harsh Mistress?

[Orrex]

6. Read both last summer

I think I made it halfway through the back cover synopsis of Moon before my lunch rose in my gorge, but I made it a bit farther into Troopers.

[RebelOne]

2. Also, read Stranger In A Strange Land

/www.iblist.com/book1297.htm

[Orrex]

10. That's another one that I own but haven't read.

[HopeHoops]

14. Oh, man - crack it open. That's one of my FAVORITE books.

[XemaSab]

33. I really did not care for that book

:P

[hunter]

3. I thought Heinlein novels were about strong, big breasted women who said "Yes, dear..."

:shrug:

[petronius]

4. You probably want to stay away from "Farnham's Freehold", then...

[Orrex]

8. I own that one but haven't read it

Thanks for the warning. I'll be sure to have my Dramamine handy when I tackle it.

[7wo7rees]

9. I made it thru Freehold

I liked the post-apocalyptic success story of Farnham doing low-tech rebuilding of his, erm, freehold.
I also liked the big-breasted women saying "yes dear."
True fantasy. :)

[hobbit709]

5. And if you had read it all the way through, you might have learned something.

It wasn't one of his best but it's still better than most of the new dreck.

[Orrex]

7. Well, cut me some slack

I picked it up at a book sale this morning, and I've been busy all day. Only had time for the first chapter.


What, pray tell, might I have learned? That Heinlein writes female characters like he's a fantasizing, aging male? I knew that already.

[Orsino]

26. HP Lovecraft was a racist, and Austen a classist.

We can still read them as critically as we might any other author.

Heinlein was a product of his time and his market, too. Judge them all for how they broke paradigms as well as followed them.

[Orrex]

28. I've read nearly everything that Lovecraft wrote, fiction-wise

Haven't read much of his correspondence, so maybe that's a different matter, but I've never seen anything preachy in his racism, at least not in Heinlein's "you're stupid if you don't believe as I do" mode. Lovecraft seemed rather to take his racism as the norm, but I don't get the sense that he was trying to sell anyone on it. Heinlein, in contrast, seems constantly trying to hawk his favorite brand.

[Orsino]

36. Not constantly.

As I said, he also broke new ground, and could at least be worth reading for his challenging new ideas.

IMO, Lovecraft and Austen can also be considered "preachy," though their characters rarely took the time to preach to other characters.

[Orrex]

37. That's a good distinction

The racism and classism in Lovecraft and Austen were IMO more like scenery elements, a sort of default backdrop against which the worlds and stories played out. Granted, these were sometimes foregrounded (the exectrable Arthur Jermyn being one vile case), but as you note there are few examples of one character preaching the word to another.

I also confess that I'm not entirely sure what "new ground" Heinlein broke, because he seems largely consistent with most of the tropes of his era, though perhaps he was at the leading edge.

[mysuzuki2]

11. He got MUCH worse in his later work.

[Iggo]

12. I was too young to notice when I read Time Enough For Love.

Plus all the naked redheads talking about incest had me all...let's call it "confused."

[annabanana]

13. I read Stranger when I was a teenager.

I was entranced by the story and oblivious to the implications.

[lunatica]

15. I read him first and he turned me on to scifi for life

I was seventeen and loved his books and I became a Science Fiction fan. The first book was Have Space Suit Will Travel which was perfect for a first time teenager's book.

[struggle4progress]

16. When I last read Heinlein, the US still had a military draft: back then, we all thought

"the government" was the Vietnam War and the narc squad

[OmahaBlueDog]

17. My finding is that Heinlein fans tend to be Rand fans

[hobbit709]

18. I'm not and none of my friends are.

[Orrex]

19. Well, I'm still interested to hear what you think I might have learned

if I'd read Friday all the way through yesterday.

[MicaelS]

21. Let's see...

(1) Slavery is immoral. (Friday is born a slave, later "Boss" buys her "contract" and frees her.)

(2) Someone genetically engineered strictly from human DNA, even though they have much superior physical and mental skills to "normal humans" is a human being. (Friday is genetically engineered strictly from human DNA, but is considered an "Artificial Person". A.Ps. do not have human rights. Other genetically engineered beings possibly use some animal DNA, and are considered even less than Friday. They are considered "Living Artifacts." Whether RAH considers these L.As. as human, I can't remember.)

(3) Prejudice against someone genetically engineered is prejudice. (Friday "passes" as a normal human, is welcomed into a group marriage / family, has sex with her husbands. Until she outs herself upon which her "spouses" scorn her, and divorce her. This causes the group marriage to dissolve.)

(4) That it takes a human mother to make a human baby. (in other words, if you are (2) and can give birth to a human baby, you're human being.)

[Orrex]

20. This message is not a duplicate, no matter what you might think

[krispos42]

22. I read a lot of his earlier works when I was a teenager

stuff from the '50s, like "The Rolling Stones", "Starman Jones", and "Time for the Stars".


I remember when reading "Friday" that some of the stuff was a bit ridiculous, like California giving everybody a bachelor's degree to stop pay inequity. But I could see his point that increasing population pressure might cause some problems like he described, such as rationing and minute regulation of personal activity.

[Scout]

23. well, when i was in my early teens, i kinda of liked old Bob, but since

i've been grown and have some real world experience, i don't care for his stuff nearly as much.

Friday really pissed me off too, all the "wriggling her bottom" bullshit...

[KamaAina]

24. All the way through several of them

and I'll keep going if I find any I haven't read, thank you very much.

Preachy, yes -- but he's no Ayn Rand. There's real action going on, as well as some important points to be made. In Friday, for instance, the heroine :loveya: faces discrimination because the fundies of the future don't believe that "artificial persons" such as herself have souls. Meanwhile, the continent has broken up along similar lines to "The Nine Nations of North America", with the Chicago Imperium a fascist police state, the California Confederacy a lowest-common-denomintor state where everything, and I do mean everything, is put to popular vote, and so on.

Pity you're gonna miss it. :(

[gratuitous]

25. I read some Heinlein books many years ago

Clay tablets, cuneiform type, etc. I don't recall much of the preachy aspect of them, but it was probably there. At that time, I was more interested in seeing how the story turned out than in the nuances of the situations that were set up. I started to get over that with Dune, which I thoroughly enjoyed right up until the end, when this long, elaborate set-up is resolved in about four sentences. I slogged through the next two books, and gave up most science fiction after that.

I did read some Asimov, mostly the Robot series and the three Foundation novels. But Asimov's relentlessly linear story-telling style grew rather boring after a while. At this time, I leave sci fi to those who can enjoy it.

[RandomThoughts]

27. It is not about repeating a slogan.

It is so they have something to think about while trapped in a corpse rotting in the ground after death, until the time when someone can find them.


I am due beer and travel money, and many experiences.


although it is sad, and I really would rather have society be better, then any ideas of vengeance, but it does fit well into how vengeance does not help anyone, and that I am due beer and travel money.


Kylie Minogue - Can't Get You Out Of My Head (Music Video) :loveya:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFx3WX4DES0

love this song with this clip.

:)

Destroying Lo Pan.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/12535/big-trouble-in-little-china-destroying-lo-pan

[Cid_B]

29. Read em all...

Loved Troopers

Friday was excellent

Go try To Sail Beyond Sunset. It might be more to your taste.

The incest/ultra polygamy theme is tough to deal with.

Read Stranger in a Strange Land and let me know what you think of Jubal Harshaw as well..

[Orrex]

30. I think I read To Sail Beyond the Sunset about 15 years ago

Is that the one with the protagonist who walks around naked for the whole (or much of the) story?

[WildEyedLiberal]

31. Troopers is fine if you skip all the reminiscing about his high school teacher's sermons

The parts that are actually military sci-fi are cool; the politics, not so much.

[Cid_B]

38. Bah...

LTC Dubois is one of the best parts of that book.


It's the same guy as many of his others though, Heinlein himself, talking in speech/sermon via a character directly to the reader.

I enjoy the bit about sheep and sheep dogs myself.

[quakerboy]

32. All the way

Granted I followed my own path. I started reading late, and then worked my way through all of the hardy boys very rapidly to make up for it. From there it was to David Eddings, and on to Heinlein.

At about 14. Its an ideal age for appreciating books that include a lot of sex and thoughts that you might indeed be better than everyone else. So I finished every one of his books that the library system had. No vomit desire was found.

Some years later, I decided not to live a completely self centered screw everyone else life.

I just decided to give up on Paul Hogan. I enjoy parts of his writing. But the libertarian Crap completely overwhelmed it. Or more accurately, the complete demonization of anyone who is not libertarian. I am ok with libertarians. But I dislike propaganda that relies on demonizing people. The more so if it is hidden in other venues. A leaflet that is honest about its goals, people can decide for themselves, but imbedded in fiction kinda bugs me.

Im kinda on the fence about a few other authors. John Ringo for instance. I enjoy his imagination, but I hate his politics. He is generally more subtle. Which almost makes it worse, cause it can slip in easier.

[Odin2005]

34. I can't stand him. He was such a nut.

Stranger and Friday are OK, I though Starship Troopers was has dumb as the movie.

[blogslut]

35. Well, I've only read the one book

I actually bought it, tried to get through the long explainy part at the beginning, put it down for four years and then picked it up, trudged through the boring start and then, from the moment Michael Valentine Smith discovered the joy of Gillian's grass floor, I was in love.