Are you ever made to feel less of a person (less of an adult) because you don't have children?

[bluestateguy]

Right out of the gate, let me say that I respect greatly people who make the choice to be parents, especially when they make that their top priority in life. If you become a parent, it will be the most important job you ever have.

But then there are people like me who may never become a parent, and you know what, that is fine with me, if that's my course in life. I don't know if that's the kind of commitment I want or feel ready to invest myself in.

My problem is with people (and I am NOT saying they are here at DU) who through their actions, habits and remarks make us feel as if we are somehow just a little bit less of an American or somehow just a little bit less of an adult if we are not parents. Often such behavior is unintentional, but it is there, even if I cannot quite provide you with a crystal clear explanation of it without writing pages and pages. This is one of those things where you just have to take my word for it. It's just a vibe that I definitely feel from a lot of people I meet, including my family.

The thing is, I am gainfully employed, all done with school, financially independent and I live 2000 miles away from my parents and extended family, so I don't see how anyone can think of me as somehow less than adult, or less than American. But I do get that vibe from some people.

Even politicians get in on the act when they constantly make references to "working families" this, or "American families" that, neglecting that some of us do not yet (or perhaps never will) have families of our own.

[Withywindle]

1. I'm getting so depressed by the thread in GD about women freezing eggs.

Not that I ever thought my genes were SO AMAZING that they just HAVE to be passed on OMG...


It's just all the people declaring with great confidence that anyone who's still single at 40 must be defective in some way. Female or male, there's plenty of contempt to go around.

It hurts. I've been lucky in many respects, but not in love. :(

[seabeyond]

8. i really dont get the animosity on that thread to either gender.

the women waiting for someone they can love and saying there is no "good" older man. boggles my mind.

[Skittles]

2. no

because they know I would kick their sorry ass

[elana i am]

3. a few people in my life may have tried...

to make me feel that way but it didn't work. they believe they answer to an invisible sky god and that we're all put here on earth to have lots and lots of godly children.

i respect their choices in life about as much as they respect mine.

[abq e streeter]

4. Yes--regularly---by myself

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

5. Not really

When my husband was alive we considered ourselves a family even though we never had any children. Now that he is gone, I've actually have the opposite problem. My mother and father in law have both said it was a good thing we never had any children or I would be left a young widow struggling to raise them on my own.

I do regret that we never had a child though.

[HipChick]

6. All the time...

I just ignore them...my younger brother who is over 4,000 miles away had kids...his young wife passed away from cancer 18 months ago...he is now struggling alone to raise them..

[nickinSTL]

7. I haven't had that experience

though my wife has run into a bit of it, and a friend of mine gets some really incredibly rude questions and comments from people with kids (she's 37 and has been married for almost 5 years - they don't have kids, but I'm sure it isn't really by choice).

I don't know why anyone feels they have some sort of right to say anything about whether others have kids or not. Talk about something highly personal that's none of their business! :mad:

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

9. I wanted a child more than anything in the world

but then I had to have a hysterectomy just a few months ago, which forever precludes me from having biological children. For several weeks before and after my surgery, I could not look at a pregnant woman or a baby without crying my eyes out. I hear of friends who just had babies and I can't bear to even go and say hi. It got so bad I'm now on pharmaceutical help to deal with that.

All I hear from those with kids is how great of an experience pregnancy and childbirth are and how they are now 'whole' people since they became parents. What does that make me? Less than whole because I don't have a uterus?

I don't know if I will adopt - if I do it through the foster adoption program it will take forever; if I do it privately, it will cost a lot of money.

But I do know that people with kids unintentionally say things that make it seem as if only those who become parents are worthy of adulthood. They say I don't know how hard it is, what kind of sacrifice it is, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Inadvertently, the wife of a co-worker was boasting about her first grandchild, talking about how children are a gift that only the worthy can attain (not that I believe in that sort of mumbo jumbo pseudo-religious crap) and I think to myself.. perhaps I am a genetic failure for my inability to reproduce?

I am asked when I will have kids. I used to say something like 'some day' or 'I don't know.' Now, I just say 'never' and they look at me like I'm weird because I tell people I enjoy traveling. They think I'm selfish and less than human. Screw them.

[sarge43]

12. The next time someone runs the "when I will have kids" by you,

try this one: "We're not married or ever will be. Why is that any of your business?" Or "Goodness, that's an incredibly rude question."

And you're not a failure. You've been dealt a bad hand.

As for the only worthy have children, suggest flap mouth talk to a social worker or ER nurse about that one. The world is filled with people who wish mom and dad had at minimum the parenting skills of a king salmon.

[Pool Hall Ace]

13. I love this paragraph so much, it bears repeating.

"As for the only worthy have children, suggest flap mouth talk to a social worker or ER nurse about that one. The world is filled with people who wish mom and dad had at minimum the parenting skills of a king salmon." :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[sarge43]

15. Thank you, Ace

I drove school bus. The principal once said to us drivers, "Say good morning to the kids. It may be the only nice thing some of them hear all day."

Sad commentary about how we treat our most valuable resource.

[amyrose2712]

16. +1000

[clyrc]

24. my condolences on your hysterectomy

I'm sorry you can't have kids, since you wanted them. If it makes you feel any better, all of my pregnancies sucked, my first two because I was sick as a dog through them, and my second two because they ended in miscarriages. Childbirth was beyond excrutiating. Now, I always have to compromise what I want with what is best for my kids. And oh, I know of several people, my brother included, who should never ever have had kids, who didn't deserve them because they were not willing to put the effort into parenting that is essential, but they had kids anyway. There is nothing "worthy" about those kind of people. And I have to say that although I always wanted to be a mom, I have never judged people because they don't have kids. I'm ok with other people having other paths.

[CBGLuthier]

10. A little glue will secure that chip firmly to your shoulder.

If you make your choices live with them. Don't whine when people give you shit. Most of what I see in these many, many threads is people who seem thin-skinned and take the slightest of comments as major condemnation of their lives.

Just look at your last paragraph. You are OFFENDED by politicians mentioning families.

Isn't that chip getting heavy?

[LisaM]

43. It bugs me when politicians mention working FAMILIES all the time too

I believe it was in the 2004 Kerry campaign, and a woman stood up and said, "I don't have kids, I don't own property - what are your proposals going to do to help ME" and the answer was pretty much, nothing.

It was not my choice to not have children - the opportunity to have them passed me by. (I mean, sure, I probably could have been knocked up by a stranger and been a single mother, but I think I'm wise enough not to make that decision!)

[nomorenomore08]

63. Why the hell should anyone "give him shit" for not having children?

That's the whole point.

[zanana1]

65. Is being a judge alot of hard work?

You're not in her shoes. I, too, am childless. People don't have to come to you directly and tell you they think you're inferior.
Body language, the not-so-obvious insulting comment, and the "family" this and "family" that can hurt, whether intentional or not.
And people with your kind of attitude don't help.

[bigwillq]

11. No (nt)

[Orrex]

14. I can tell you one big reason why people make you feel that way

Generally speaking, the stakes are higher when you have kids. In just about every way.

Any problem or crisis is substantially more complicated if you have children. If you lose your job or you can't pay your gas bill or you fall ill or you can't fix your car or your dog shits all over the house or you need to drive 100 miles to be with a friend who just OD'ed or whatever, then any of these problems will be much harder to deal with because your first problem is "what about my kids?"

And there are a ton of problems that people without kids will simply never have to face (except perhaps vicariously): the baby has a high fever that won't break, or the toddler swallowed a battery, or the preschooler demonstrates developmental problems, or the seven-year-old broke three teeth at the playground, and the list goes on.

Here's a way to think of it: imagine any serious problem that you've ever had to get through in your entire life.

Now imagine what it would have been like if you'd also had kids.


It's not that you're actually less of a person or even less of an adult, and it isn't certainly doesn't mean that you haven't faced challenges; it's just that the challenges in one's life--however real or severe--are of an entirely different magnitude when one is a parent. Dealing with those challenges transforms a person in subtle and fundamental ways. Perhaps not always, but generally.

I say "generally" because "challenges" vary between one person and the next, and of course non-parents have faced horrors and hardships throughout history. Your pal Joe might be having trouble because he can't pick up his kids at daycare, while you might have to have three limbs amputated. In that case, obviously, your particular challenge is more intense than your pal Joe's.

But then imagine how difficult your triple-amputation would be if you had kids, too.


Probably the only problem that a non-parent faces that a parent does not is the heartbreak of wanting or unsuccessfully trying to have children, except when the parent wants to have additional children. But that's very different situation from what you're describing, so we can discuss it in another thread if you want to.



If someone actually accuses you of being "less of an adult" simply because you aren't a parent, then that person is simply being an asshole. But if someone appears to regard you as less serious because of it, it's because that person identifies a significant difference between the circumstances of your challenges and theirs. Whether or not parenthood was a deliberate choice doesn't make a difference; once the kids are on the scene, the entire game is changed.

Incidentally, another reason that people might regard non-parents as "less adult" is because some non-parents tout their childlessness as if it were a noble crusade such that parents are selfish world-destroyers: "I chose not to have kids because resources are getting more and more scarce," for instance.

Well, that's a bullshit excuse, and no adult would offer it up as justification.

[Kali]

17. good post

also, my 15 year old was the one that swallowed the battery:eyes:

[Tobin S.]

19. Yeah. Wanted to have kids, can't find anyone to make them with.

Maybe another thread.

[Flying Dream Blues]

51. What a thoughtful response to a sensitive subject.

You really nailed it.

[SocialistLez]

61. Maybe they regret having kids and want to make you feel as bad as they do.

A book I read said polls have been conducted of parents.

MANY people with kids regret having them.

It's not that they don't love their kids or any of that but many of them said if they could go back in time and not have kids, they would.

[Kali]

18. tangent

my gripe is being a female parent - and all the dipshits that think that it my ONLY role

being in agriculture in a rural area everyone just assumes the husband is "boss" of the ranch (he is a masonry contractor and while he is tremendous help around here, he just doesn't "know" cows) - always amusing when he defers the lame intrusive questions/discussions about the business to me :rofl:

but the bottom line: NOBODY makes me feel less of a person about much of anything, skittles has nothing on me in the ass kicking dept

[seabeyond]

20. having been single for so long, people addressed me. soon after getting married

hubby and i were talking to a contractor for work needing done. i asked a question. he looked over my head and gave answer to husband. about knocked me back. i had never experienced that. and like your hubby, mine tilted head to me and told contractor to address me.

[Iggo]

21. Nobody can make me feel that way.

But they sure as hell try...lol.

[pitohui]

22. no but my husband used to be ribbed at work unmercifully

he works in heavy industry, and there's sort of a hamster wheel where the blue collar guy goes out, makes a lot of $, and spends every penny of it on his kids to prove what a man he is or something

i just laugh it off frankly, i'm not a hamster and i don't get on a wheel and "spin" just to prove whatever the hell popping out babies was supposed to prove

i must admit, as a childless person, i kind of think of people who have kids as a little less imaginative, a little less intelligent, a little less able to think of the future and to do basic math than the childless...i can't help it, because any mammal can spawn but it takes intelligent and planning NOT to have children...i try not to let the snobbery show to their face tho

i'm sure everyone is happy feeling superior to everyone else

[SunnySong]

23. never mind nt

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proteus_lives]

29. ....huh...hah....huh.....

"i kind of think of people who have kids as a little less imaginative, a little less intelligent, a little less able to think of the future and to do basic math than the childless"

:rofl:

[Dr. Strange]

32. You're a saint without equal.

i try not to let the snobbery show to their face tho

[TZ]

41. !

Dr. Strange, FTW!

[CreekDog]

36. Wow, you come to the conclusion that people who choose differently than you are lesser

a sure sign of intelligence and imagination is to think everyone's decisions are stupider than your own. :eyes:

[pitohui]

45. yes, just as EVERYONE does, IF they're honest -- that's a pretty big if sometimes

people who have kids think they're better than everyone else and constantly brag about all the "joy" they supposedly got from the rug rats

those of us who can do math and can see that this "invisible" joy is not worth the $ and energy invested think we're better because...well...we can do math and see that having $ in our pocket is better than NOT having money in our pocket

it's a win-win for EVERYBODY because EVERYBODY thinks they made the right choice

but there's so much dishonesty...those who chose to have kids DO think they made the right and superior choice, and they don't make any secret about it...those of us who chose NOT to have kids ALSO think we made the superior choice but we're supposed to lie abt it and pretend we have regrets in order not to hurt the feelings of those encumbered with children

so...at the end of the day...it's a logical conclusion that if MY choice makes the parent feel threatened, then they must have some sneaking suspicion that they made a huge mistake they can't ever take back -- once you have a kid, you've got it, you're screwed, your freedom is lost for a minimum of the next 18 years...

those with child TALK of joy and superior choices but their actions suggest they have deep and troubling regrets otherwise WHY would they care that i didn't have children?

seems like pretty straightforward common sense to me

so, yah, i can't help but pity those lumbered with kids, esp. women, i know many of them made a choice to screw up their lives but their lives are still far more limited than they would be if they'd made a different choice...and if we're HONEST we know all that

do i really believe that MILLIONS of people are such saints that they're happy giving up their one and only lives to spawn? nope, i believe that misery loves company, and that once they realize they're "stuck," they want to share the pain

i'm just being honest about my feelings, does that make me a "saint"? no, it makes me honest though -- something you can't be once you have a child -- the honest parent does not, cannot exist, because it's implicit in good child-raising that you sometimes have to lie to protect the child

honesty itself becomes a luxury, plain speaking itself becomes a luxury

at the end of the day, that's why parents often seem so dishonest, so caught up in religion they didn't believe in for a minute before they had a kid, so eager to sell b.s. rules that they themselves didn't follow or respect anyone who followed...parenting makes your life a lie in a lot of ways

so, yes, sorry, i do feel superior, comes w. the territory of making a choice (instead of letting life happen to me, which is how most people get babies)

i'm not gonna pretend a parent is a better, stronger person than i am, when i can see w. my own eyes that mostly, most of the time, they're not -- they're fear driven and they act based on peer pressure, religion, etc...

[Shell Beau]

46. Say what?

"so, yah, i can't help but pity those lumbered with kids, esp. women, i know many of them made a choice to screw up their lives but their lives are still far more limited than they would be if they'd made a different choice...and if we're HONEST we know all that"


"do i really believe that MILLIONS of people are such saints that they're happy giving up their one and only lives to spawn? nope, i believe that misery loves company, and that once they realize they're "stuck," they want to share the pain"


I can't help but pity thought processes like that. :crazy:

[CreekDog]

48. $$ is better than a human being?

again, you are underwhelming me with your intelligence.

and still worse, is that you are annoyed at people who think they are better for having children, yet you think all along that you are better than them for *not* having children.

in fact you are worse, because you are also a hypocrite!

you said:
"hose of us who can do math and can see that this "invisible" joy is not worth the $ and energy invested think we're better because...well...we can do math and see that having $ in our pocket is better than NOT having money in our pocket"

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

37. Ooooh....kay

Thank God your parents were a little less imaginative......I guess.

[flvegan]

58. Holy Touchdown Jesus.

Comedy gold, right here. Comedy gold.

[Orrex]

62. Is he ribbed for your pleasure?

Any narcissist can exalt the choice not to have children as if that choice were a merit badge of superiority.

Fortunately, I am not so shallow as to judge one's intelligence or capacity for imagination based on the decision to have children.

[stray cat]

25. Actually discriminated against at work - You don't have a family you can do it

while the people with family leave early and I finish their work or come in weekends and do their studies.

[Staph]

38. I get the same discrimination at work.

If you are single especially, you are tagged as the one who can travel on a few hour's notice, can drop everything to work nights and weekends. The married folk assume that we singles have no responsibilities and no life outside of work.

(Stop whining, Staph! Go back to work!)

[LisaM]

44. Boy, that sure happens at my work

I oversee a department of six. Three are mothers, two are young mothers. They call in a LOT. Yet they all have husbands who, presumably, could stay home half the time but don't.

The others have to cover for them all the time, and get behind in their work because of it.

[Yavin4]

27. People Assume That I'm Gay Because I've Never Been Married and Don't Have Kids

I've never been fiscally sound enough to even think about starting a family.

[JitterbugPerfume]

28. It is a very personal choice

and families come in all sizes , shapes and compositions. I think it is accepted by thinking people that you do not need a house full of kids to be a family.

That said, I wouldn't take the world and all of its wealth for my children

[jobycom]

30. Nah, but I've been made to feel less of a person because i have kids.

Happens on a regular basis here.

[LibertyLover]

31. Although I have a child, a daughter adopted from China

I was treated by many family members as somehow less than an adult for years. I had made the choice to live with my mother because she had some health issues and so for years was treated very much as a child. Then I got married and the family began to treat me differently. I can't quite put it into words but it was there. When we brought our daughter, newly brought to the US from China, to her first family Thanksgiving, it was like I had finally arrived. When I first got engaged, married friends began to treat me differently too. And after I got married, my single friends melted away in spite of me actively trying to maintain friendships, one or two of which I still miss even after 12 years of marriage. It was odd, because I don't think that I do that. I have a 40 year old cousin who is single and childless and a nurse-practitioner in the NICU at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. If I ever treated her as less than an adult, I would be the poorer for it.

[guitar man]

33. People tried to

But I ignored it. I finally became a father for the first time at 42. I'm 46 now and most of my friends have grandchildren as old or older than my daughter. It doesn't bother me, I've lived life on my own terms as much as I could and I think things worked out the way they were supposed to. Some of my own family even gave me shit about it along the way.

If you have kids or don't have kids, it's your choice, your business. Nobody has to walk in your shoes but you.

[VMI Dem]

34. I have had 7 children with 5 different women, and I do not look down on people that do not have kids

In fact, I see the women as a potential future babies mama.

[Burma Jones]

35. I have four Brothers, one of which has two Children

I have three. I was 38 when my first child was born, and 46 when my youngest (and final) was born so I had a lot of time to sow wild oats and travel and do whatever the hell I wanted to do before I became a Father. My Brother (two years younger than me) was 24 when his eldest was born.

I think I was considered less serious than my colleagues with kids. What I figured it boiled down to is that Bosses felt those with Children feel as though they have more to lose and are, therefore, more subject to intimidation. But then, I worked for some giant douchebags until my early 40's.....

Having Children means there's more riding on your "performance" as an Adult than just your own well being, so that lack of direct responsibility for others may have something to do with the perception you're noticing.

[wickerwoman]

53. But I don't think you can make the assumption

that because someone has never had kids, that they have never had responsibility for another human being.

Many people take care of aging and infirm parents for years. Some people take care of disabled siblings or spouses. At least when you're changing your kid's diaper or listening to him/her scream and throw a tantrum you know that things are going to get better eventually.

Families have complex financial arrangements, and childbirth or adoption are not the only ways people can become burdened by serious familial responsibilities.

Not trying to jump down your throat, just addressing a widespread and incorrect assumption which leads directly into the prejudice that childless people someone are less "adult" or "responsible" that people with kids.

[Burma Jones]

71. I'm with you........

Hence my reference to the "douchebags" I worked for until I was about 40.....

The people making that assumption are the ones with a problem.

[Maccagirl]

39. Yes

society makes me feel invisable.

[HipChick]

40. I was actually told yesterday, that I shouldn't be driving an SUV

because I was a single woman with no kids, and was unfairly using up the resources of the planet. I guess I should restrict myself to a yugo or something. This coming from a woman who has 5 kids, and whom my fed/state taxes probably help cover their schools...oh vey..

[REP]

54. My two-seater gets a lot of longing comments from minivan driving moms

And sometimes hostile ones, since I'm legally allowed to park in the hcap spots.

[LisaM]

42. All the time

I almost got into with a friend once, who called two of her coworkers "childless women" and accused them of trying to make things harder for HER because she did have kids.

[ismnotwasm]

47. I don't qualify

But I heartily encourage those who don't want children to simply not have them. I'm a supportive in conversation about the topic as it's possible to be, because I hate that shit.

I had a much admired chemistry teacher, once we talked about her career and her choice not to have children. We both agreed that the child-free have often insights and perspectives that those of us who have kids do not. And that those insights are very precious, invaluable sometimes. The child free also make countless contributions to society of time, money, effort, invention and thought that those of us who have had children may not be able to do.

I'm sorry anyone has to feel uncomfortable with that choice, or ever feel less than a whole, vibrant human being.

[S n o w b a l l]

49. Nope, never

Unless I'm totally oblivious to other's reactions...but that's because I don't care.

If anyone asks, I tell them life got in the way. I've led an interesting life, moved several times, didn't get married until I was 37, had a career, then opened a business and it just never happened.

I've never regretted it. If anything, I feel like I've never really grown up because I didn't have to be a "mature role model" for anyone or worry about something I did that would negatively affect my kids. I like having that young spirit and being able to be a kid myself at 54.

I guess you don't miss what you never had, and I've never been the type of person who lets society dictate to me what's normal or expected.

[Initech]

50. Not even slghtly. I enjoy my freedoms.

[MountainLaurel]

52. All. The. Time.

From my grandmother's best friend who treats me like a circus freak (pointing me out to strangers at picnics and noting that Mr. Laurel and I aren't having kids) to family members who don't quite consider us adults yet.

[REP]

55. Not in a way I'd notice

[Mike 03]

56. No, but I put that on myself for sure

I was married and my wife wanted to have a child, but I thought we should adopt, and we later divorced, but I never had kids.

Now my father has terminal cancer and I feel guilty that I did not have children so that my parents could have grandchildren.

[Zavulon]

57. As someone who is not a parent and never will be,

what pisses me off is when people with kids think they should automatically have priority over you in every aspect of life - place in line at the store, first choice of vacation days and so on. I'm taxed at a much higher rate without kids so that life will be easier for parents - I've done my fucking part.

[SocialistLez]

59. Not really.

I know some co-workers made the comment I didn't need a certain day off because I don't have kids.

:puke: :mad:

I'm 20 so I have plenty of time for BINGOs (people harassing you for not having kids).

http://www.happilychildfree.com/bingo.htm

OP, don't let people make you feel bad for not reproducing.

[MichiganVote]

60. Oh cripes, get over it already. People with children get put down for that choice.

Its a world of put downs for everybody for something and if you let it get to you, you end up whacked.

[zanana1]

66. You just ooze warmth and understanding. nt

[MichiganVote]

68. Expecting DU to become a therapy office is pretty pointless friend.

[zanana1]

70. It's about friends being compassionate, friend. nt

[ChoralScholar]

64. It kinda makes you wonder if,

for some folks, it's a commiseration. "Hey! Come be tied-down to a family of children too so we can be miserable together!"

I get it from some people because we only have one. ChoralKiddo doesn't need a baby sister or brother just for the sake of having one. "There's enough love to go around!!" they say...

However, there are a finite number of hours in the day, and I feel like I don't give ChoralKiddo enough time as it is.

So, I guess there's prejudices under every rock.

[MilesColtrane]

67. Yes.

[cherish44]

69. There are mature and immature people...their reproductive status isn't what makes them that way.

Look at that selfish Octomom woman and her 14 kids and tell me she acts like an adult. I know a lot of very irresponsible, childish people who are very proficient at making babies that I wouldn't let take care of a dog. And I know some very mature people who may love kids but know that being a parent is not for them.

[luv_mykatz]

72. Yeah.

Someone down thread really nailed it when they pointed out that people at work seemed to have the idea that the childless person had nothing but spare time on their hands. I too have been faced with the attitude that my life must be an easy glide down the rails, no worries ever, etc.
Why is it that too many people do not get it that the Earth does not suffer from a lack of human beings? That a world of wall-to-wall people packed in like sardines in a can is not a kinder, gentler world? Overpopulation is destroying the systems which support all life, including human life! The environment is not just pretty scenery for privledged pointy headed intellectuals to jog through.
Those of us who were wise enough to avoid breeding made a choice which can benefit all living things, including the too often self-rightous folks who had kids.
Most people don't live on farms anymore. We don't need to produce huge numbers of decendants in order to have enough people to work the farm. I wish more people would really do some clear thinking before they decide to reproduce. What kind of reality are they bringing those kids into?
I am extremely glad that I chose not to breed. It is the pressures caused by crowding and excess demand on the life support systems that lead to situations where our society acts in ways that undermine and destoy those life support systems. The problems of our world go round and round in what appear to unsolvable cycles because we, as a species, refuse to share this globe fairly with the other beings which inhabit it with us.
O.k., I wandered off topic here. I will state that there is NO WAY that avoiding breeding makes a person less responsible!