My ex-inlaws are using my ex-husband's cremains as a weird bargaining chip

[mcctatas]

my children wanted some of them so they could plant him under an apple tree at our new house on Father's Day but the ex-inlaws won't let them have any unless we invite them to the ceremony we are planning. This is awkward for several reasons, the first being that my older two are still very angry at them about their father's funeral (didn't even say his name once and made no mention of his children in the whole hour long fundie recruiting festival), I am not condoning this, I think it is important for them to keep in touch with their grandparents but I am not ready to force the issue (the funeral was a mere two weeks ago). Secondly, we are planning on having the service at the house I just bought with my boyfriend, the kids have asked him to be there and I am afraid it will cause unnecessary tension, and finally, they still blame me for his suicide, how am I supposed to invite them to my new home with the poison that comes along with them?:

So now I am torn, do I give in or do I just try and pass off some fireplace ashes (I know that sounds tacky, but it is more about the ceremony and remembrance for the kids than the actual remains of their dad). HELP!

[MrCoffee]

1. I think this situation is too odd for me to offer any reasonable advice

Wow, I'm sorry you're going through this.

[mcctatas]

2. unreasonable advice is also appreciated at this point

:)

it just keeps getting weirder and weirder

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. My dear mcctatas!

Those assholes are blackmailing you, and I say fuck them!

Perhaps you could sit down with your children, and discuss the situation? Maybe with the older kids?

I would not want them there under any circumstances. The ashes are not worth it. I suspect if you tell this to your ex-inlaws, they might relent. I don't know.

They are so not worth it, family or not.

I'm so sorry you're going through this, sweetie...

:hug:

[mcctatas]

4. thank you Peg!

and the fact that I got a twofer of Peggy profanity almost makes the situation worth it :P

:hug:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. ROFL!

Glad I could help, sweetie!

Even if only for a moment...

:hug:

:rofl:

[rurallib]

13. Peggy you are a lounge treasure.

precisely what to do.

[seabeyond]

6. i think you stay honest to a T all the way thru regardless who you are talking to.

with your inlaws you tell them kids want you there, regardless of how you feel about me. they want to plant a tree with dad to honor him. grandparents make the decision. they also reap reward or repercussion of their actions.

kids, you tell them,.... laid it out for grandparents, they came back with.... doable, not doable, but be straight and honest.

you are not in control of others behaviors and cannot accept the responsibility how the others chose to behave. you are the parent, ergo you are the one that is responsible for being the communicator. above all, honest about it all. detached and not emotionally a part of it. it all is, what it is.

any dishonesty, regardless of reason, to any of them, will bite you on the ass. honesty, upfront and direct is all you have.

[undeterred]

7. Weird advice...

Is there anything else they could plant by the tree instead of the ashes that would be meaningful? Do you have any pictures of happier times with him and the kids together? Maybe they could write a note to him and bury it along with a picture (after a copy has been made).

I wouldn't want to get into a battle over ashes. Maybe later on the inlaws wont be so awful about it and will share his ashes with his children.

[seabeyond]

8. good idea. so creative. nt

[mcctatas]

11. wonderful idea

Thank you so much :hug:

[undeterred]

16. ...

:hug:

[XemaSab]

22. I was thinking of suggesting

that maybe the ashes be buried or scattered somewhere that isn't at the new house, so McTatas doesn't have to have those people up in her scene. :(

[ismnotwasm]

9. That is bizarre

I'd simply plant a tree or something like in his honor, something richly symbolic, like a fig tree, have a loving and healing ceremony and forget the ashes at this time. A living symbol is pretty powerful. You could quite possibly obtain the ashes and plant them at a less volatile time.

I'm sorry you're going through all this

[flvegan]

10. I doubt your ex-husband would want to be used as a bargaining chip with his kids.

I'd probably try to convey that idea to the parents, see if they honor their son properly.

An odd situation and one I don't envy. Especially since you could ante up and say that you guess that they never want to see their grandchildren again.

[Missy Vixen]

20. IMHO, YMMV, I'm with flvegan

Ask them how much they'd like to maintain contact with their grandchildren. If they want to "go to the mattresses", so to speak, you should as well.

[Gormy Cuss]

12. Plant the tree as a remembrance.

Explain to the kids that it's in memory of their father with or without his ashes being interred there because his ashes aren't him -- he lives in their memories. I like undeterred's idea of burying something else of significance under the tree too.

If the ex-laws ever cough up some ashes you can have a second ceremony with the kids.

Are you and your children in grief counseling? That can be a very good resource for dealing with issues like this.

[HopeHoops]

14. Fuck the fireplace ashes. Level with the kids. Let THEM put pressure on the ex-inlaws!

That's just wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Well, I suppose if someone asked for my child's ashes, I would want to

see where they ended up.

But it sounds like it could be a bad situation. :( If you think the kids are old enough, you might try explaining everything and your reservations about what your ex in-laws want.

[mcctatas]

17. but that's just it...

he was not just their child, he was the father of three wonderful spawn, the whole thing sucks :(

[GreenPartyVoter]

30. How old are your kiddos?

[mcctatas]

31. 16, 14 and 7...

the oldest is having the hardest time, the but tutcher is handling it pretty well, considering that he is only 7 and autistic, my middle daughter never really had much of a relationship with him and she walked in on one of the worst instances of abuse towards the end of our marriage, she mostly feels bad that her siblings are sad

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. So it's already hard without the grandparents playing head games... Well, if it was me

I would talk about it with my kids. They are 10 and 12 and I purposely try to call out this kind of behavior or weird thinking so they don't get the idea that it is somehow normal or right.

But just because I think it's the right thing to do in my family doesn't mean it is in yours. You're gonna have to go with your gut on this one. :hug:

[madrchsod]

18. put Feingold signs in your yard....

i`ve heard that`s a good way to keep wisconsin fundies from taking over your lawn.....

[mcctatas]

35. in 2004, I covered up their "George Bush Presidential Prayer Team"

bumper sticker with a "Kerry/Edwards" sticker. It took them weeks to notice :P

[madrchsod]

45. good one.....!

[RainDog]

19. how can they be so grotesque?

silly me, why did I even ask the question... they're fundies.

I would tell them that you will tell their grandchildren that their grandparents are REFUSING to share their dad's ashes with his children if they don't get their way.

ask them if that's what they want their grandchildren to know about them.

let them plant a tree in their own yard and have their own ceremony with the grandchildren if it's so important to them. you were estranged from them and their son. this is for you and your children and if they don't like it... well, they're NEVER going to like anything you do b/c you make it possible for them to deny their son had problems that had nothing to do with you.

[elehhhhna]

21. + 1000. They ruined (hogged) his funeral, blame you for his suicide,

...then hold his remains HOSTAGE?

Get as far away from them as you can, immediately, and let the chips & ashes fall where they may.

[July]

23. First of all, what California Peggy said.

Secondly, it's JMHO, but I think your answer is in your post.

"The poison that comes along with them" makes keeping in touch with their grandparents a bad idea. At least, keeping in touch by letting the grandparents control the children's special remembrance of their dad is a bad idea. Especially when they are essentially blackmailing you and your children. Whatever the good may be in seeing their grandparents (varies by family), is it worth the cost?

They will keep manipulating you and your children until you stop letting them (I don't mean you are doing anything wrong -- it's Dealing With Bullies 101, which is a course I've taken, unfortunately), and your children may take a while (because they're children) to understand what the grandparents are doing and how to handle it. All they will know is that their grandparents are making them and you feel bad.

Help the children have a better moment for their father than the grandparents' funeral was. Don't feel bad if that means letting the grandparents enjoy holding the ashes hostage. By themselves. Away from you. What you can do for your kids is help them understand that the ashes are less important than everything they have in their memories, their DNA, and the love they and their father shared -- all things no-one can take away from them or hold hostage.

I wish you all well.

[dembotoz]

24. go with the fireplace ashes- or maybe the grill

tell em it is symbolic
They can understand symbolic

hell if the catholics can believe some cheap wine and a hunk of bread are blood and body of jesus.....

It can still be the fathers tree.

if things improve with the in laws maybe sometime later use real ashes
if not so be it.

do the kids want the parents there?
It sound like it is their ceremony--inlaw had theirs now its the kids and your turn.

the inlaws have an urn
you have the children

you came out ahead.

[noamnety]

25. I think you have to let it go.

A few people came up with creative solutions that I hope can work for you all.

Unfortunately for your family, his parents have the right to his ashes. I know this is not a time you want to be in their shoes ... but from their perspective, losing a child is one of the most painful things that can happen to anyone, all the more when it's a suicide. That's not a time for others to be demanding anything of them and putting any extra pain on them - despite anything ugly that has passed between you, despite even your children's wishes. It's not a time to expect them to be thinking of others, and it's not a time for them to be rational.

I don't think parents who have lost a child need their child's ex asking anything of them, as hard as it is for you and your children to accept. This is a time to find a different path for a ceremony for your children.

[crim son]

34. Reading through this thread, I agree with you, noamnety.

The ex-inlaws may very well be the most hateful and manipulative people on earth but while everybody is grieving, nothing can be gained by making this an issue. I wouldn't have the parents at the event and I would let them have the ashes. mcctatas has good reason to ask why she has to be the bigger person, but the answer is simple: because she is.

[quakerboy]

37. I disagree

my thinking based on my general belief that underage children have more of a moral claim on their parent than elder parents do on their children. Were it just the Ex, I would agree with you. But there are children, underage, possibly even young enough to be unable to really understand the situation. And in my mind, the needs of those unable to advocate for themselves trump most others.

But then I also feel that the physical ashes are not the important part of the whole deal, and they should be able to bypass the whole situation.

[noamnety]

40. They may have a moral claim

but not a legal claim. His parents own the ashes, there's no amount of bullying that's going to end well if they are coping with the loss of their kid, that's my point. I don't believe most parents would want to divide up the remains of their lost son, least of all to be buried at an ex's house who they have a family feud with. Personally, I probably wouldn't do it and my attitude would be get the f*** away from me if I were dealing with the loss of my daughter and meanwhile she had an exhusband I detested who was trying to claim part of her remains to be buried on his property. It's a nonstarter, but I do believe they were being gracious beyond the call of duty to offer to even allow that if they could be there to see that part of their son put to rest.

(and a nonissue now since she's coming to terms with looking for a different way to help her children grieve)

[quakerboy]

47. True

and true. This kind of situation is never easy for anyone involved.

[Richard Steele]

26. My family is chock full of fucked-up people who create wierd situations: I'd go with the fake ashes.

I'm really not kidding.

And I also recommend that you don't badmouth you ex's folks
to the kids.
You tell those kids that their Grandparents love them,
and that they were happy to provide those ashes because
they knew it was important to their beloved grandchildren.
LIE your ass off,
just like you lied to them about Santa and the fucking Tooth Fairy.

If your ex-Inlaws are really bad people, your kids will figure it out
for themselves in their own time, when they're ready to handle it.

[mcctatas]

27. I have made a decision...

mostly thanks to undeterred, I am going to have the kids each write him a letter or draw him a picture or whatever they choose and bury them with his favorite Miami Dolphins hat, his parents can be as spiteful as they want, but I will give his kids the chance to give their father a meaningful service, ashes be damned!

Thanks everyone :grouphug:

[elleng]

29. Glad you came up with such a satisfying decision.

I have 'similar' concerns, as my 'ex' is ill, our daughters are very attached, and he and I are NOT.

All the BEST to you and yours, mcct.

:hug:

[jobycom]

39. That's a good solution. Let the emotions diffuse a bit.

The in-laws, whatever their faults and/or virtues in normal circumstances, are not going to be able to be rational about this. Trying to make them so will just create more tensions. You're doing the right thing by making the memorial with the kids about their immediate family and their feelings for their father. Any negotiations with the in-laws over this is only going to compromise what the kids are trying to accomplish, and will probably create more bad feelings between kids and grandparents.

Make the tree ceremony about the kids and their feelings. The ashes will still be around if at a later date all parties decide to have a united ceremony at a more neutral (physically and emotionally) site when the politics have been settled. Also, such a ceremony would be purely in the hands of the in-laws, so it would be up to them to approach you and the kids, and that takes away their power to use everyone's emotions as leverage.

Good luck.

[Brickbat]

41. I think this is a great idea and can be very healing.

I also think this idea makes the most sense. It's very clear that you will never do anything right for his parents (in their eyes) so you might as well make it easy on yourself instead of trying to jump through their hoops.

[NNadir]

28. I don't know how old your children are, but here is what I would do.

I would sit down with them and explain to them as gently as possible that you want them to keep a connection with the memory of their father and also want them to know his parents.

Explain clearly and simply as possible that grief - including their grief - is a difficult thing, with which it takes many, many, many, many years to come to terms, and that often anger is a part of it.

You are their surviving parent. If you think they are old enough and strong enough to deal with the grandparents, then let them decide whether to invite their grandparents. You will be teaching them that part of life is making difficult decisions, which in fact, it is.

If their (or your) decision is not invite the grandparents, tell them that you will bring a photograph of their father to the ceremony, and remind everyone that their father is part of the wind, from which the tree will grow, and that whenever they see that tree, they will know that part of the tree is their father, just as many of the best parts of them is their father.

Let your children know that whatever happened, you love them, and will respect always their love for their father however it comes.

Then live the last part.

[FedUpWithIt All]

33. I'm sorry. What a terrible position they are putting you in.

My father died when i was 11. My mother had us make special notes and we placed them into the ground around his grave site.

Perhaps you could do a type of memorial chest and bury that instead. Have the kids gets trinkets that remind them of the good times they had with their dad. Have a ceremony and bury the chest.

I do hope his parents come around for the sake of the kids.

[quakerboy]

36. I vote

1) Stay honest yourself. No matter how you decide to proceed, do not lie to the kids about this. They will find out someday, and it will hurt.

2) I would ask the kids what they want to do. Explain the situation. "Your grands are being A-holes. They will only give us the part of dad we want if we invite them. What should we do? Everyone gets a vote."

My personal vote would go to "not invite". Its your home, your kids, they have no rights and deserve no latitude. They ruled the official ceremony. I would not also give them any control of the private one. It happens that ceremonies are ceremonial, and the physical presence is not the important part of the ceremony. But then, I am a Quaker, so that colors my thinking on such things.

[Withywindle]

38. First off, I am so sorry.

Second off, I think the tree-planting ceremony your children want is the important thing. The ashes would be a nice symbolic gesture, but honestly, do they really matter? If he had died in some circumstances where his remains were not available, the important thing would still be that his children felt he was there in spirit. So plant the tree, have a family ceremony, tell stories about him, have pictures and his favorite music and food, honor his life, explain the situation as best you can to your kids (the older two, it seems are at least able to understand this is a contentious issue). You might want to talk with them about the relationship between the spirit and the material flesh and how they're not the same, if you believe that and feel up to it and that it would help them.

It sounds like the ex-inlaws are spreading bitterness. They can have their own memorial for their son, away from you. Don't invite them. You are under no obligation. Don't force the kids to cut off contact but don't force it either - two weeks after the funeral is WAY too soon to make decisions like that, and none of you are close to your "right minds" yet, so cut each other some slack in that regard. This is the kind of thing that shakes out over months and years, not days or weeks.

Don't pass off fireplace ashes. Tell your kids the truth. They'll be glad of it later.

[carlyhippy]

42. wow, I'm sorry for your situation

There would just be too much hurt feelings and bad vibes in your new home. Plant a tree in his name, have your ceremony anyway without the ashes and the ex in-laws. Make it special for your kids in rememberance of their dad.

[carlyhippy]

43. repeat again

[carlyhippy]

44. repeat.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

46. Have two ceremonies

One with the ex-in laws. Try to be polite and distant. Let them participate. The next day or week or whenever, you and your kids have a 'real' ceremony. :shrug:
This way everyone gets what they want, don't they?