Can we have a discussion on male creepiness?

[Juche]

Anyone want to discuss this issue with me?

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger’s-rapist-or-a-guy’s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/">Post

So I was reading this post and all the replies to it. I will grant you that if a guy does not seem to respect a woman's boundaries or needs, then that is a massive red flag that needs to be noticed. However that is not strictly a female on male issue. I am a male, and I remember a few weeks ago I was out with a male acquaintance and I noticed him doing some things that made me feel he had no interest in my needs or problems (I had a big problem, and he didn't seem to care). So I found an excuse to leave the situation (we'd been hanging out for several hours before that) and went home and never saw him again.

So my first criticism of the post that was made is that this whole issue of viewing someone as ignoring your boundaries or needs as a red flag is something that maybe women are better at picking up than men, but it is a red flag that transcends gender or type of interpersonal relationship (sexual, acquaintance, family, friend, professional, etc).

I guess another problem I have with some of the responses in that post (I am male btw in case you didn't know), is that the reality is if someone hurts you badly, it is probably going to be someone you trust enough to let into your life. It is not going to be 'the weird stranger who looks/acts different from me', it will be someone you've let into your life. And the truly dangerous predators know most people define 'dangerous' vs. 'safe' based on how normal a person is, and know how to act the part when necessary, be a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I remember reading something about Ted Bundy, and how some of his girlfriends couldn't understand how a guy they knew as a guy who respected their boundaries could turn around and be a sexual spree killer. One woman talked about how when she was on a date with him and gave a hint of not wanting things to advance beyond 2nd base, Bundy would stop. But the reality is the truly, truly dangerous people out there know enough about when to respect people's boundaries and needs vs when to ignore them. Socially awkward people are (in my experience) usually harmless.

I used to have severe psychosis as a teenager. As a result I went through a period where I had severe problems with boundaries and social skills. And I did a lot of things that would be considered creepy both during and for several years after my episode. But I never set out to hurt anyone. I just had trouble expressing my own needs and boundaries, and reading other peoples.

Based on the replies in the post I listed (which is closed for comments, hence me coming here), I am sure a few women over the years thought of me as a potential rapist because I was socially awkward and had trouble reading signals. But it seems that the women who think that are just looking for superficial social skills, not truly dangerous intent. I don't know how it sounds, but I don't want my sense of morality defined by people who define right and wrong strictly via social conformity.

Its like stranger sexual abuse of children. If you kid is sexually abused, it is probably going to be someone you trust enough to leave your kid alone with, not the 'weird stranger over there' who does it. And the true predators know that. They know how to get around the 'red flags' people have.

I just feel torn. On one hand I don't want to seem like a guy who is ridiculing or ignoring women's needs for safety. But on the other hand I think people are confusing superficial social skills and social status with predatory behavior. When the real predators probably know how to manipulate social skills and social status to take advantage of people.

I guess in conclusion (I'm drunk right now, so if I piss people off try to be nice) what I am trying to say is this.

1. People seem to confuse social awkwardness with being dangerous, which is insulting to those of us who are or have been socially awkward for various reasons (inexperience, neurological illness like autism, insecurity, etc).
2. The truly dangerous people know how to be socially normal, and know how to win the trust of people who feel that a person's level of danger is nothing more than a sign of how advance their social skills and social status are.
3. It is hard to have a discussion on this subject for fear it will descend into name calling.
4. Someone who ignores your boundaries and needs is a red flag for all genders in all relationships, not just men approaching women for romantic encounters. So yes, someone who ignores your needs and boundaries is a giant red flag. But it is a red flag for all interpersonal relationships. However, the truly dangerous know how to fake it.
5. Because of the life I've lived and the experiences I've had, I don't really respect most people enough to care what they think anymore. Which is making me really arrogant and I fear making me isolated. How can I be expected to respect judgments on human nature such as 'social skills are the best sign of how dangerous a person is'. Social skills are a sign of how well someone can socialize. The truly predatory are fully aware of how to respect boundaries when they need to, and how to ignore them when they need to.

I don't know. I know deep down inside some of the women who thought I was probably a rapist in college (not because I was a rapist, but because I was weird) probably ended up going on dates with guys who actually did try to date rape them. But because those guys had better social skills than I did, their defenses were down and even though they considered me a rapist, I am sure at least a few went on dates alone with guys who actually were rapists. How am I supposed to respect that kind of morality or thinking? I don't know. People whose sense of good vs evil doesn't extend beyond someone's social skills and who watch shows like dancing with the stars and pretend to read the bible but never do (because that is the religion this particular culture believes in) shouldn't be writing my morals for me.

I don't know. I worry I am starting to not respect people enough to care what they think anymore, which is probably bad in some ways. But then again, I think of some of the people I've met over the years and how shallow and useless they were, and I'm like 'what the fuck would I even want your approval for, what would it say about me if I had it'.

I feel torn. Part of me is disgusted by the superficial, easy to get around morality (social conformity = good, awkwardness = bad) of many people, the morality that truly dangerous people have no trouble getting around. But part of me feels I am being a dick for feeling that way, like I am being condescending.

Part of me feels I am self actualized ala Maslow in the sense that I have discovered my own values, goals and beliefs enough to not need social support. Part of me feels I am just an isolated, arrogant person and becoming moreso by the day.

Keep in mind when I say 'isolated' I do not mean people reject me. In fact, I get along fairly well with people. I mean I just don't feel a connection to many people because our outlooks, goals and values differ. I am 30, but the people I have felt connected to most strongly have usually been women over 60. Not in a sexual way, just in a human to human way.

I'm going to regret this post tomorrow when I'm sober. fml.

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

1. Dude

You lost me at the point you admitted you were drunk. Two thoughts: for a drunk guy, you can write pretty coherently and I think your last sentence was probably spot on. :P

[wuvuj]

2. I understand and agree with most of what you say....

...I remember an Oprah show or was it what's his name...on the issue of women trusting men and projecting their fantasies on them...to their detriment.

Personally I don't play the dating game...makes life much easier when you grow up and don't expect someone else to give a damn...then you need to become your own best friend.

Sure some will think this is sad. But loneliness and so forth is a STATE OF MIND.

Helps if you can develop multiple personalities though.... :think: :-)

[Boojatta]

3. How do you react to the insult?

You identified the problem as confusion of two different things. It seems odd to me that you can simultaneously see it as a confusion and as insulting. If it's a confusion, then there doesn't seem to be any intent to offend. Why not simply express the issue in words, in the form of a question, and give people a chance to consciously think it through?

But the reality is the truly, truly dangerous people out there know enough about when to respect people's boundaries and needs vs when to ignore them. Socially awkward people are (in my experience) usually harmless.

(...)

1. People seem to confuse social awkwardness with being dangerous, which is insulting to those of us who are or have been socially awkward for various reasons (inexperience, neurological illness like autism, insecurity, etc).

2. The truly dangerous people know how to be socially normal, and know how to win the trust of people who feel that a person's level of danger is nothing more than a sign of how advance their social skills and social status are.

(Two words underlined by Boojatta)

[nomorenomore08]

5. Doesn't have to be either/or. And not all insults are intentional either...

nt

[nomorenomore08]

4. Kick, for discussion...

Why the hell not? :shrug:

[nomorenomore08]

6. Oh, and BTW, speaking for myself, I practically never approach strangers (of either gender) anyway.

Just not the outgoing type, you know?

[many a good man]

7. Can you summarize in this post in 25 words or less ?

Good fucking Lord, man! What the hell are you trying to say?

[many a good man]

8. Can you summarize in this post in 25 words or less ?

Good fucking Lord, man! What the hell are you trying to say?

[vadawg]

9. dude you are two guys out on the town, why should he have an interest in your needs

. I am a male, and I remember a few weeks ago I was out with a male acquaintance and I noticed him doing some things that made me feel he had no interest in my needs or problems (I had a big problem, and he didn't seem to care). So I found an excuse to leave the situation (we'd been hanging out for several hours before that) and went home and never saw him again.


not sure if you meant it to read this way but you are not the center of the universe, maybe your buddy had other stuff on his mind like girls.. and unless your problem was you had been shot and were bleeding out then girls pretty much supercede anything else.

oh apart from beer



oops i forgot, yes you are the epitomy of male creepiness and me thinking you are creepy says a lot...

[Juche]

10. We are never going to hang out

And even though I don't know you, I can tell you that I really don't even want your approval or respect. You can consider me a scary creep and/or sexual predator until the cows come home. You obviously didn't read between the lines about what I was getting at.

For everyone else, I got a PM asking me to post this in GD, so I posted it there if you want to discuss it further.

[vadawg]

13. sure as hell we are never going to hang out, not if you think i need to be aware of your needs and

feelings, thats just way to high maintenance to hang out with, I dont think you will find any other guy who wants to hang out with another guy who is that needy unless there is a long history of friendship or you have a hot sister....

[noamnety]

11. Woman's perspective here

if a guy is giving me a vibe that makes me feel unsafe, I'm getting the hell out of there, because honestly my need to not get abused or raped supersedes any obligation for me to take care of the guy's emotional needs.

You may believe rapists all have excellent social skills, but the fact is, they do not. They are regular guys that comes from all walks of life, some with superior intelligence, some with cognitive impairments, some with excellent social skills, some with no social skills at all. It's just like racists can be the local dumbass at a pub or some Harvard grad in a three piece suit. Often women do get a creep vibe that they are taught by society to ignore. It's not uncommon for them to feel they should have listened to their gut when there were signs that the guy was excessively controlling.

Also, it's not just that they might be "rapists." Many many women (more than most people realize, I'd guess) have also been physically assaulted by men in their life without the men raping them, or have been victims of other types of controlling abuse. Not respecting boundaries is a huge warning sign for that. I wouldn't assume a person like that is a rapist, but I would still assume they are abusive and controlling. And they aren't exhibiting social skills in the way you described, they're exhibiting a lack of social skills.

We have to trust our instincts.

[vadawg]

12. Bingo, we always tell the self defence class to trust their instincts

if something feels bad, then it feels bad for a reason. You would not believe the number of women especially who i have spoken to who tell me that something didnt feel right and looking back they knew there was something wrong with the guy who attacked them. Its a common theme that anybody who deals with victims comes across......