My oldest son just threw up his hands in disgust and went to bed.

[crim son]

He was posting on FB about the importance of voting NO on the latest proposition to rescind the rights for gays to marry. Needless to say, about twenty teenagers jumped all over him and at least one cited the APA as stating that there is no conclusive evidence as to how a person is, becomes, chooses, is born as or whatever, gay. The APA does in fact make this statement but goes on to point out that it really makes no difference, etc. This is the APA, not the AMA. Juergs was trying to point out the subtleties in the official statement but the people he was addressing did not even understand what the words "genetically determined" mean. One kid claimed that because homosexuality was "biological," therefore it was a choice and gay marriage should not be allowed...now, there are at least three and possibly more factual and logical errors in his thinking as expressed, yes? Juergen has decided people are "too stupid" to be worth his time and he gave up the fight and this frustrates him like it does all of us. My question: is anybody out there aware of the latest research done on the origins of homosexuality? NOT because I think that even matters, but because homophobics really, really do.

And let me say right now, I really don't want to offend or piss off anybody by my wording or even my inquiry: I want to give my son information to bolster his argument. Even if he doesn't win converts today, if he presents reasonable evidence these young people might rethink their bigoted position once they're away from Mom and Pop and the rest of their bigoted families.

[Ptah]

1. Perhaps he should ask them when they chose their orientation?

:shrug:

[Capn Sunshine]

2. exactly.

I'm straight, but no one ever had to tell me, and I didn't have any question or "choice" about it.

How these fools can think you "choose" to be gay just amazes me.

[Kali]

3. you are a wise person, Ptah

:hi:

[Ptah]

5. Gotta make 'em think.

Can't tell them what to think, just make them think.

If I Only Had A Brain ----->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOKK8mAkiUI

:hi: :hug:

[crim son]

7. Very good.

See, this is the sort of stuff I don't think of and yet it makes the point immediately. Unless yer dumb as a stick.

[Ptah]

8. Reassure him. He's on a good path.

:grouphug:

[flvegan]

4. Two things: First, be thankful that YOUR kid isn't the bigot.

Second thing: You may want to crosspost this in the GLBT Forum. I read there quite often, and posters there really know their stuff. I'm not saying this shouldn't be in the Lounge as well, as the Lounge is oft frequented by smarties as well, but I don't think everyone in the GLBT Forum reads the Lounge.

Just my almost worthless two cents.

[crim son]

9. Utterly worthless. :P

Delete - badly worded.

I may take your advice, flvgan, and thanks.

[Aristus]

6. My only evidence is anecdotal, but it's pretty convincing nonetheless.

I was talking once to a friend of mine who is gay. This was pretty early on in my exploration of gay issues, and the national debate over those issues. I had pretty much concluded that it was genetically determined, and not a "lifestyle choice". But I wanted to hear from at least one person with a dog in this particular fight. I asked him if he chose to be gay. He answered: "Why in the WORLD would I choose to be this way? People who might otherwise be good and decent to others call me a pervert. I can't serve openly in the military. I can't marry. I can't be assured with my partner of having legal access to spousal or survivor benefits, or hospital visitation rights. In some parts of the country, a guy could beat me to death, and then be acquitted of murder by a jury of his homophobic peers." (Not anymore, I wish I could tell him!) "So why in the WORLD would I CHOOSE to be this way? This is who I am, though. And I'm going to be proud of that, and try to live a happy and rewarding life."

You know already, crim son, that I'm 100% in favor of gay rights. I hope you tell your son that we're winning on this issue, and that we will win. Don't give up hope. Next Tuesday is election day in Washington State. Referendum 71 is on the ballot here, over whether to extend marriage rights to gay couples. I will be at the polls to vote an emphatic "YES" on my ballot.

And the whole "conclusive evidence" thing is just bullshit. Listen to the spokesman for the Tobacco Institute sometime. You know, that pathetic drip who gets up in public and says: "There is still no proof that tobacco causes lung cancer..." People who don't want to be convinced, aren't going to be convinced...

Give your son a :fistbump: from me... B-)

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. *hugs* It's beyond frustrating, but kudos to him for even trying. I can't even do it any more. The

blood pressure is high enough when I am reasonably calm.