I need help in what to do with one female dog bullying another female dog(post turned out to be long

[JonLP24]

Some background.

Me and my mom have 3 dogs. Two of them are brother/sister twin gordon setters she got in 2004 as puppies. I was in the military from '05-'08 so she has had nearly the entire experience as being with them. However back in the fall she got an american pit bull terrier puppy and the two females has gotten along very well. I recall the puppy being soacked in saliva from the gordon setter female licking her constantly. They would play often as well. Back in December the gordon setter attacked the puppy twice viscously in a period in of 3 days. Both times my mom was around. My mom felt 'fixing' the two females would solve the problem.(The male has been 'fixed' long time ago) Anyways from the period of December to Febuary when they got fixed they have gotten along and no fights took place. Anyways they were fixed in Febuary and since then no problems.

However a month ago the gordon setter female attacked the terrier so we started leaving the puppy in a somewhat of a cage(It's a metal fence attached to the drywall that has about 10-12 feet space in length about 5-7 feet in width with a lockable doggy door). Anyways the important thing to note is all attacks happen during the presence of my mom, I'm not sure if it is connected as they never fight when it is just me around even after a severe attack from the night before. So whenever she would come home she would call me put the puppy in the cage and she would came in while they are hyper. She would then put the muzzle on the setter and let the terrier out. Me, I don't use the muzzle when it is just me around because for some reason she doesn't attack her.

Anyways nearly a week passed, I took a nap one afternoon expecting to hear the phone ring and didn't hear the phone call. My mom came in and the setter attacked the terrier again without a muzzle. She put the muzzle on and I left it on for a couple days as punishment. Anyways two weeks passed and there were no problems, my mom would still have the setter muzzled up as long as the terrier was out of her cage. They would sometimes playfight but I'd stop them thinking the playfighting might lead to the aggression later on. So it was probaly Saturday and the Setter attacked the terrier strangely enough with her muzzle on. The terrier wasn't hurt but was affected by hiding in a small shopping cart for hours even with the setter locked outside. Today was bad. First thing the terrier is probaly used to #2ing in the cage as she is in there all night as we are asleep but mostly #2's outside in the patio so she looked as if she was going to #2 in her cage and as my mom was yelling at her to stop. The setter attacked her with her muzzle on, again we locked her outside for awhile and let her back in. She attacked a little longer after that with a muzzle on. Everything was fine for several hours until just recently where she attacked w/ a muzzle on the terrier while she was sleeping in her cage with the door open. She sometimes sleeps in the cage when she doesn't have to) Anyways we put the Setter outside for a moment. We left the pit bull in her cage as it is night time and let the setter back in and she tried to attack the terrier through the cage! Of course she didn't get through and I just yelled at her until she stopped.

That is the background. The details of why she sometimes and out of the blue attacks her is very unclear as it varies. Sometimes the male setter is sniffing the female pit and the female setter comes in attacking the terrier. Most of the time it is out of the blue and trust me when I say this the puppy is not starting it or she isn't doing it in a way that is clear to me. One thing that is clear is all attacks happen in the presence of my mom. Never when it is just me. Even then it is not conclusive because nearly everytime my mom isn't doing anything but sitting down or doing something else. Today was the paticular exception in where she was trying to prevent the pit bull terrier from craping in her age by yelling 'no' 'outside' and the gordon setter attacked her.

The reason why it is concern as the pit bull terrier is 30 lbs compared to the setter's 57 lbs so the terrier is no physical chance and often the encounter leaves the terrier terrified and it is saddening to see her hide in small areas for hours even when the setter is locked outside in the patio. I'd like to resolve this and keep both dogs but I can't put my finger on what the problem is. They are fixed, the only fought more after that so I don't get it. I've read so many conflicting tips from so-called dog trainers on sites through google searches. We tried establishing the alpha dog roles such as giving her the first treat, talking her on the first walk rather then randomly, and all this giving her more attention crap didn't work or didn't seem to work. The male setter is 75lbs but never attacks any dog but does have the loudest bark. She does occasionally attack him but it only lasts as long as to the point as he creates seperation. And plus he can handle it. When it comes to the female setter unmuzzled she is on the terrier's body until you pull her off. That is a challenge because she just doesn't listen to commands when she is in that attack mode, everytime you pull she is pushing towards the terrier. However I do get them seperated. When she has a muzzle on it is very simple to break up the fight by grabbing her and carrying her to the patio.

I tried to add as much as information as possible to help you guys help me figure out what exactly is the problem. Mostly the terrier is safe at all times, when all dogs are unsurpervised the terrier goes to her cage incase she might attack. Even though there was never a presence of an attack when none of us were home. The safety is a concern but that could simply be solved by getting rid of the female Setter. What I really want is understanding of the situation from the female setter's POV as to why she does attack and why I never have this problem when my mom isn't around, when she isn't I have no need to muzzle up the setter as she doesn't attack her. But it isn't her fault which makes it more confusing, she feeds them, treats them generally well, etc.

Before it gets too long I'll leave it at that. If you have any questions of what I might be leaving out feel free to ask, I included every possible detail I could think of so you'll can get a full understanding of the situation.

[JVS]

1. I can't believe you passed on giving your thread a potentially awesome title.

I'd have written

"Help me stop some bullying among my bitches"

Think of all the clicks it would have attracted.

Good luck with the dogs, I wish I could offer advice.

[JonLP24]

2. Strangely enough

One day when I was typing in google about relevant info, I typed in 'bitch' or maybe 'bitches' fighting thinking I would get specific information. I got nothing about dogs unfortanately. It is shame you actually have to type out female dog onto google to find info about female dogs or 'bitches' as they are called.

[merh]

3. You setter is showing the pit that she is the alpha female

One of you humans need to show the setter that you are the alpha, that you are in charge of the pack and that the setter's behavior is not acceptable.

Here is something that may help.
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/alpha1.html

good luck

[JonLP24]

5. That's what I think it is

That she is showing her who's boss but I don't see anything the young one is doing that to threaten her status. She is smaller, never starts any fights. I figured it was the playfighting was establishing the alpha dog roles and possibly later carried out into a viscious argument. In no ways are either of us being soft, when she attacks she is put outside in the patio outside and she is made very clear what she did is wrong. It is also clear that she had to suddenly start wearing muzzle when she attacked her 4 weeks ago. My mom usually yells loudly near the top of her lungs when the dogs are doing something wrong so she isn't that soft one where I do yell but not as loud but a firm enough tone to let them know I'm serious.

[hfojvt]

4. how vicious are the attacks?

Sometimes play fighting can look and sound pretty bad even when nobody gets hurt. I sometimes have felt the need to break my dogs up even when they were mother and son, but son actually held his own against his much bigger mother. Either she backed down because she lacked testosterone, or was taking it easy on her son, or because she was such a sweetheart.

I think the logic of it is that the female wants to maintain her spot, her favor with your mother, who is the alpha of the house. Another possibility is she may think there is a shortage of food.

Unless you have a vicious breed, if there is such a thing, I mostly trust dogs to work it out on their own.

[JonLP24]

6. If the setter was never seperated it is unclear how long she would continually

attack the puppy. The playfighting is where the bigger female dog gives the smaller one a chance to run, move freely. While the viscous attacks I'm referring to her is started by a growl by the Setter and she pins down the younger one while she is screaming and even if you pull her the Setter still has a firm grab of her neck area and once you do seperate the terrier is off hiding in a small area shaking for a long period of time. This doesn't happen after a playfight.

[Jeep789]

7. Be careful, I know of dogs that have killed others

of the same household even when people thought the had worked out their place holds.