Am I wrong to think less of my friend's husband

[neebob]

for wearing a Confederate flag hat? I just couldn't stop staring at it. And I'll say it: I think less of him. I'm trying not to think less of my friend for marrying him. She's not a bleeding-heart liberal commie pinko like me, but I'm still having trouble getting past the flag hat. You don't see many of those where I come from, and you don't just put one on without thinking about it.

[DarkPhenyx]

1. Yes you are.

Sorry, but you are.

[Career Prole]

5. Why?

Seems like opposing viewpoints both supported by the freedom of speech, to me.
:shrug:

[DarkPhenyx]

10. For starters it's a narrow minded reaction and POV.

Has this particualr individual acted racist, which is the only objection I can imagine you having, in any other way or at any other time? Like everyone else who reacts negatively to the Confederate Flag you really don't know what it means to the person displaying it, or what significance it might have. It make no more sense for you to think less of him than it does for me to think less of someone for wearing a cross, a symbol I have every right to be offended by. Your reaction is coming more from what is insdie yourself, than it is from anything this individual has done.

[neebob]

13. Fair enough.

[DarkPhenyx]

18. This is, of course, just my opinion.

Others on this board will tell you differently. Most of them, if not all of them, probably. :shrug:

The reaction is yours. In the end only you can really decide if it is an appropriate reaction. Just remember that it is YOUR reaction, and he didn't cause you to have it. You allowed that reaction to happen, and allow it to continue to be.

[jrthin]

6. You're right.

It's not what we say, but what we do that matters. And wearing that hat says volume.

[DarkPhenyx]

12. His wearing the hat says squat.

based on no more information than presented here you know diddly about anything in reference to this person. I so hope you aren't a judge or lawyer.

[Crunchy Frog]

2. No, your not wrong

to think less of someone for wearing something like that.

First, we're all only human, we can't dictate how we react on an emotional level to something like that.

Second, only an <expletive deleted> would wear something like that in the first place.

Thirdly, if you really are a bleeding-heart liberal commie pinko, then I'm sure that he thinks far worse of you than you do of him. In fact, he may have put it on just to annoy you.

Whatever the case, your feelings are your own, and you are entitled to them.

[neebob]

8. I don't know the guy very well

only ever met him three or four times. My friend, who is also a co-worker, married him and moved to another town. I talk to her every day, and we sometimes travel together. But I don't know him, and he has no reason to want to annoy me. I wasn't annoyed - more like surprised, in a bad way.

[DarkPhenyx]

14. You are the ONLY one that has any control over your emotional response.

People can not make you offended, hurt, sad, or anything else except maybe dead. By reacting in a negative manner you are giving them power over you. Why would you ever want to do that?

As far as only assholes wanting to wear the confederate flag. Only someone with very little understanding of reality would feel that way.

[coltman]

19. I take offence to people judging other people

without any clue as to their personal agenda or history. I consider the confederate flag a symbol for a war that was fought over states rights (everything old is new again?) I'm not a bigot but I still have a right express my feelings through symbols the same as everyone else without being chastised.

[neebob]

26. My reaction was due in large part

to the memory it evoked of an incredibly creepy sociopathic scumbag "boyfriend" (ugh) who sunk his hooks into me and nearly ruined me a few years ago. He was a total racist - no, make that a white supremacist - who wore the Confederate flag to bug other people. What can I say but it was one of those deals where he pretended to be one thing but turned out to be something else entirely. It was horrible, and I'm lucky to be here to talk about any reaction I have to anything.

So I realize it has little to do with the person under the hat. He's a perfectly nice guy, I think. The hat just caused me to question my previous impressions of him.

[Career Prole]

33. 'Splain me something...

...states' rights, slavery, it matters not to me. It's over. What isn't over is I'm a Yankee living in the South. There are very nice people here, same as everywhere else. What I want is for someone to please tell me why I'm at worst treasonous, at best not supporting our troops because I'm against the war in Iraq. I'm in the South, those are southern voices calling me those names, Southern vitriol in the letters column in the paper. Somehow disagreeing with Bush makes me a traitor or against the troops in the eyes of people who still honor the flag of an army that seceded from the country and then tried their damndest to kill federal troops, never mind supporting or not supporting. That's what that flag represents to me. Down here I get "Bush won...get over it."
Yeah right. What the hell happened to "Lincoln won...get over it."?
If I'm a traitor, how much more so were they?

[catzies]

101. Belated welcome to DU, Career Prole!

:hi:

Loved your line: "Lincoln won...get over it!"

I just have to tell my brother that, who's a Democrat NASCAR dad living in the Atlanta area!

[Mrs. Venation]

24. You Are Making A Sweeping Generalization

about people you don't even know. While I realize there are people who are offended by the Confederate battle flag, there are people who honor that flag who are most decidedly not racists.

I am a southerner. I am proud of my heritage. When I see that symbol I do not associate it only with slavery and racism. There are many positive attributes of southern culture. We are polite and respectful. We are generally a friendly people, and we offer hospitality and comfort to strangers. We have a deep appreciation for family, for community and for freedom. We are loyal to a fault. We understand the importance of taking time to smell the roses.

My great grandfather ran a steamship landing on the Tennessee river during the war between the states. He was tarred and feathered for refusing to sell wood and supplies to Confederate vessels. He survived that, and continued his principled stance.

There seems to be some mistaken impression that racism and oppression in the USA have occurred only in the southeastern states. That is totally wrong. The public high school in my home town was racially integrated in 1958; does anyone remember when the Boston, MA public schools were racially integrated and what happened there?

I deeply resent the attitude shown toward southerners from so-called political progressives. It is no less bigoted than racism, misogyny or homophobia, and it is equally as ugly. The people of the south are as diverse in opinion and practice as any regional population of the USA.

[neebob]

30. As it happens,

one day last week, one of my bleeding-heart liberal commie pinko co-workers made a comment about southerners that shocked me, and I thought less of him for it. :)

[celestia671]

3. I don't like to see Confederate flags either...

however, a couple of friends I've had in the past wore them occasionally. While I disapprove of the flag and what it stands for, I didn't think less of the person. I judge people by how they act, not what they wear.

[DarkPhenyx]

15. What does the flag stand for?

If your response includes nothign but references to bigotry and racism then you don't know what it stands for.

[Career Prole]

21. I'm willing to listen...

...what else does it stand for?

[DarkPhenyx]

35. For some it is nothing more than pride in being born Southern.

All of the great things the South has done for this country. Pride in not being one of those stuck up sticky-bits from New York.

[thebigidea]

37. ah, so the South is glorious - and the NYers are "stuck up stick-bits"

talk about irony.

[DarkPhenyx]

39. I think you will hear far more derision...

...of a much uglier nature when Northerners talk about the South. It happens quite often on the "enlightened and free thinking" forum.

[thebigidea]

42. uh huh. I didn't say shit about the South. You insulted NYers.

Somehow the South is beyond reproach, yet NY is fair game? What hypocracy.

[DarkPhenyx]

44. Cute.

You are losing the argument and decide to start twisting arguments around. Nice tactic. Don't the freepers use that one. *soft sad sigh*

[thebigidea]

47. ok, now I'm a Freeper because you insulted my state.

Funny how these things can work both ways, yes?

People where I live are "stuck up sticky bits," and yet somehow I'M the Freeper here.

If I posted a comment calling Southerners stuck up, you'd be hollering like a stuck pig, wouldn't you?

If I made a sweeping generalization about the South, you'd be up in arms. Yet somehow its perfectly alright for you to make sweeping generalizations about NY.

Don't you see the goofiness?

Don't you see how you YOURSELF are contributing to this asanine North/South nonsense?

No, of course not. Its somehow the Evvvvul North's fault.

[DarkPhenyx]

50. No, I didn't call you a freeper.

That would be name calling, and grounds for getting a warning. I said the tactic you used was a tyical one I see used by freepers. Completely different issue.

If you go back to my post I said the individual wearing the hat may only be saying that. You'll notice I didn't say I believe that. I pretty much figure everyone is an equal asshole, no matter where you come from. Kinda hold most regions in equal levels of esteme and contempt.

For the record refering to Southerns as stuck up would be a nice change of pace from "ignorant, racist, dumb ass, rednecks that we can do w/o as Democrats and we realy wish they would have succeeded when they tried to leave the union." That's the usual anti-South sentiment I see posted. I think most Southerners would smile and say thank you if all you thought was that they were stuck up.

[thebigidea]

51. Yes, so being "stuck up" is now PRAISE, right.

Such hypocracy. I didn't say a single word about the South, yet you can attack people where I live... and not get the point.

Did I call you ignorant?

Did I call you a dumbass?

Did I call you a redneck we can do without?

Have I EVER in any of my DU posts, ever attacked the South in any way?

No.

But you called me, my family, and my friends, without knowing a damn one of them - "stuck up sticky bits."

Somehow your cutesy little insult is ok, right? Or its OK because SOME Northerners, at SOME time or another, mocked the South?

Well, its not. You're perpetuating this nonsense just as much as the people who call all Southerners rednecks.

And of course you didn't come right out and call me a freeper, you were sly about it to avoid the warning. Nice insinuation, though.

[DarkPhenyx]

54. Wow, serious overreaction...

...and further display that you didn't even read my posts.

BUt, yes, when compared with many of the things that have been said, several times, about Southerners on this board I do believe that stuck-up, while not high praise, is definately a move in the right direction.

[thebigidea]

57. you're the only one allowed to have overreactions, yes?

Its NOT ok to call every one from NY stuck up. Can't you just admit that was a bit stupid and hypocritical, considering that you're asking people not to insult the South?

And what brilliant bit of your posts did I miss?

Though its hilarious to see you now claim that "stuck up" is a move in the right direction. Uh huh. If I said it first, it sure wouldn't be.

Or lemme phrase it differently - what if I said: "Those arrogant Southerners, so full of themselves and the goddamn South, thinking they're sooooooooo much better than the North."

You're saying that's good? That's a step in the right direction?

Admit it, Phenyx, you're guilty of the very thing you're lecturing others about. It kind of deflates your whole line of thought, you know.

And with that, I leave you to your proud heritage of calling those that happen to live in a different state than you "stuck up."

[DarkPhenyx]

60. You missed the point that....

...I did not say that people from New York are stuck up.

Yes, in some ways the South is soooooo much better than the North. Thank you for recognizing that. In some ways they are more screwed up. Southerners can be stuck up. Are you saying that Northerners, and specifically New Yorkers, can't be?

Saying something that is true isn't an insult. It's the truth. Southerners are not ignorant, racist, rednecks. They are not useless. They are not expendable to the Democratic party.

[thebigidea]

62. Uh huh.

"...I did not say that people from New York are stuck up."

Of course you didn't, you said:

"All of the great things the South has done for this country. Pride in not being one of those stuck up sticky-bits from New York."

Sure sounds like it to me. Judges, can we have a verdict?

"Are you saying that Northerners, and specifically New Yorkers, can't be?"

I didn't say shit about NYers, or Southerners for that matter. You did. You didn't say SOME, either. You painted with the same broad brush you're lecturing others about.

Apparently that brush is ok when its dipped in the RIGHT kind of paint, huh?

"Southerners are not ignorant, racist, rednecks. They are not useless. They are not expendable to the Democratic party."

I said this where? Strawman.

You called NYers stuck up, I didn't say a word about the South. I am not the Public Relations firm for North, Inc. I am not to blame for the War of Northern Aggression.

You don't like people calling you an ignorant racist do you? Well, surprise - some of us up here don't like being stereotyped as "stuck up sticky bits" either. What's so wrong about BOTH sides not having ludicrous assumptions about the other?

[DarkPhenyx]

64. I can't believe you actually refuse to read my posts.

Nowhere have I said you said any of these thing. I have, in fact, pointed out that they are things posted on this board by others.

Nor did I say I thought NY'ers are stuck up. I said it is possible that the person wearing the CF might be saying that by wearing it.

As you have obviously dcided to be offended, and chase down smoke instead of looking at the fire, it is useless to talk to you.

[thebigidea]

68. in other words, you can't address my points and you know it.

"Nowhere have I said you said any of these thing. I have, in fact, pointed out that they are things posted on this board by others."

So why are you bugging me about it? I didn't do it, and I don't speak for any one but myself. Its a distraction from what I was talking about: your ridiculous insult.

I hate stereotypes, both about the South AND the North... You apparently only hate stereotypes about the South.

You're engaging in the same bullshit you're accusing others of. Its shameful, really.

Next time you do one of these South/North threads, here's a tip: avoid stereotypes about the North and you'll be a lot more credible.

Otherwise, you're lookin' a bit silly here.

[DarkPhenyx]

70. Actually I hate sterotypes period.

labels too.

Here's a tip for you. Read peoples posts instead of assuming what they are saying and you will actually learn something and be able to carry on an intelligent debate.

By the way. I'm a Northerner.

[thebigidea]

72. By the way, I'm not from NY - I just couldn't take that stupid insult

I think the thread will now explode, or something.

Anyway, thanks for the laugh. Its been fun pretending to be shocked at someone pretending to be shocked.

Here's another tip: never, ever take me seriously.

[DarkPhenyx]

73. Ah...

...nice to have your level integrity and honesty verified. Thank you.

[thebigidea]

74. Will that affect my credit rating?

Could you be a little more - oh, I dunno... stuck up?

(ducks, runs, dies laughing)

[DarkPhenyx]

76. Only with me.

Others will have to decide for themselves. I do know I will have trouble taking any argument you make in the future seriously, let alone at face value. "Fool me once..." and all that.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DarkPhenyx]

81. speaking of drivel. n/t

[thebigidea]

82. Right on cue!

Gotta get that last dig in, huh?

here are some further suggestions:

1) I know you are but what am I?
2) I'm rubber, you're glue.
3) Oh yeah, well - well, you're not very nice at all!
4) Good lord, I'm feeling kinda dumb for falling for his malarkey.

personally, I'm gonna go with:

5) Good lord, what a waste of time. Time to get some work done.

[DarkPhenyx]

84. I dunno...

...who was it in the last few post that admitted to intentional deception?

[thebigidea]

85. Shrug. That's what I do, Phenyx. I'm a kidder. I love playing roles and

playing with people. I suppose I rationalize it as helping my writing, but in the end - its just damn fun.

Haven't you seen any of my posts or work for the past coupla years on here? That should've been enough of a warning for ya.

[DarkPhenyx]

88. NO, I hadn't paid attention to your previous work.

It hadn't been an issue before.

Please do me a favor and don't respond to any of my posts in the future. I would appreciate it.

I think. prehaps, you should find a nice writers forum to practice your writting skills in. Just my opinion.

[thebigidea]

89. Uh huh...

"you should find a nice writers forum to practice your writting skills in."

Yeah, its called Democratic Underground. You might want to find a forum to practice your "writting" in as well.

If you don't like to read my posts, put me on ignore. Don't reply to dozens of them in a row in a strange quest to get the last word in... it isn't a contest, you're not going to win anything.

Its like B'rer Rabbit and the Tar Baby.

[VelmaD]

92. Ok, first, this is a political forum...

not a fiction writing forum...just in case you missed the sign on the way in. :-)

Second, you might wanta look at the beam in your own eye before accusing others of having to "get the last word in".

Third, you might also want to consider that there are over 40,000 members on this board and the vast majority of them don't know you and your history of intentional fabrication for fun.

[DarkPhenyx]

93. *laughing loud*

And again we misread a post. Prehaps instead you should practice your reading skills.

it wasn't a command, silly child, it was an idea. Prehaps a useful suggestion. Your choice to ignore it is yours to make.

Being a disrupter in a vain quest of your own is foolish and tiresome. Unfortunately I had thought we were actually having a discussion, not playing some insipid game of yours.

*sitting back to wait for my nasty gram from the Mods*

[thebigidea]

94. Once again: the ignore feature. If I'm a silly child, IGNORE ME!

Otherwise, we could always just come full circle and start all over again.

Oh yeah, and mods: don't give him a warning. Being uncompromisingly silly, I don't really consider it much of an insult. And after all the nonsense I've spouted here, well - he's earned an insult or two, hmmm?

[DarkPhenyx]

95. At least you admit your posts are nonsense.

Admission is the first step to recovery. I applaud you on the bravery in taking that first step.

[thebigidea]

96. gawd, I'm the first to admit I'm full of shit

I should add that to the sigline.

[libertad]

90. How does a BATTLE flag stand for that?

I don't understand how the confederate battle flag just stands for being a proud southerner. Maybe their state flag or a hat which reads "Proud Southerner" would be more effective.

[Mrs. Venation]

98. Because That Is The Most Recognizable Symbol

of the south. The south, as I said before, is many things, not just a bunch of bigoted rednecks. That other people associate this symbol in such a narrow manner is sad. Southern culture has evolved right along with the culture of the entire USA. It's time to put this in perspective.

Do some people who display the Confederate battle flag do so to display their racism? Undoubtedly. But the operative word here is some.

I think there is a significant portion of the population who actively seek reasons to be offended. It feels pretty darn good to think one is superior to another person because they display a symbol one doesn't like. It doesn't have to be the flag, either. It can be a pink triangle, or a Star of David, or even a Christian cross.

Those people who display the Confederate battle flag as a taunt just love it when other people get annoyed. They live for that. Why give them that power? It's just a piece of cloth, and anyone can attribute anything they want to that, good or bad.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. However

how many people in the South realize that the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was never the official flag of the Confederacy (though it comprised the canton of the last official banner). I have no problem with people showing pride in their Southern heritage by flying the official banners of the Confederacy. I do have a problem with people who fly the battle flag because it has ties to racism and the KKK.

[DarkPhenyx]

34. Do you have the same problem with people displaying the American flag?

Or the "Christian Flag"?

[thebigidea]

38. or a Swastika? a Rising Sun flag? USSR flag?

[DarkPhenyx]

40. So you refuse to answer my question.

Typical.

For the record, no. I do not think we should prevent people from displaying those flags either. I believe it's called...um...oh, yes...Freedom of Speech.

[thebigidea]

41. And where do you get the idea that I'm against freedom of speech?

Furthermore, since when were you asking ME anything?

I'm all for flying whatever flag you want, but also for calling a bigot a bigot. Freedom of speech is a truly wonderful thing!

[DarkPhenyx]

43. How do you know he's a bigot?

You have absolutely no information about this individual outside of what he had on his hat. By any definition you want to use that is bigotry.

[thebigidea]

45. Hmmm? Who did I call a bigot?

I didn't say anything about the cap-wearer, I was talking about Nazi flags and the like.

But, yeah - a Confederate flag wouldn't automatically equal bigot, but it sure raises a few uh, flags. I'd slip in some real casual comments to see what his stance was, and judge him on what he said.

[DarkPhenyx]

48. Sounds like you've already pre-judged him. n/t

[thebigidea]

49. what part of "judge him on what he said" did you not get?

[DarkPhenyx]

53. Oh, I got that.

I'm basing my assessment on the tone and attitude displayed in your posts.

[thebigidea]

58. "good thing you're not a judge or lawyer," huh?

[DarkPhenyx]

61. Believe it or not...

...tone and attitude are very important when you are in a court of law.

[thebigidea]

63. which has absolutely nothing to do with this.

I guess I'm just too stuck up to notice.

[DarkPhenyx]

65. Could be.

Only you can make taht judgement though. And only your judgement on such a personal revelation is important.

[thebigidea]

67. I think we all know what your prognosis is, Doc. Thanks.

[DarkPhenyx]

71. I doubt it.

Your assumption that I have made one at all shows that.

[KT2000]

4. I would think less of him too

People who wear symbols on their clothing are conveying a message. The Confederate flag is a message many people are offended by and I am sure he knows this. What on earth would be his reason for wearing it if it isn't to associate himself with others who use that symbol.

Whether or not he really is a racist is not the question, but if he doesn't want to communicate to others that he is an "in your face racist" he could really choose another hat - John Deere for example.

[Mz Pip]

7. I'd be hard pressed

not to ask him what the hat means to him. I'd be real curious as to what goes on inside the heaad of someone who wears a Confederate flag. I'd probably say something like "Dude, the war is over, the South lost. Get over it."

MzPip
:dem:

[neebob]

11. I will be hard pressed not to ask my friend

why her husband wears this hat and if it bothers her. This is Colorado, for heaven's sake, and the hubster is not from the South. He was born in this little town where I saw him yesterday.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. You're in Colorado?

I am too, whereabouts are you?

I'm frankly surprised at some of the responses your getting. Some people seem to be much more offended at the thought of someone having a negative emotion than they are at someone displaying a symbol of racism. :shrug:

I say, your feelings are your own, you don't need to apologize for them, feel guilty for them, or account for them to anybody else. Don't let other people's judgemental attitudes get you down. Seeing someone wearing a Confederate flag would bother me too.

I know Colorado has been getting more and more reactionary in recent years. There are some real nutcases here (I'm not impugning your friends husband). I think maybe the reactionary politics just rubs off on some otherwise normal people.

I'm lucky, I live just outside of Boulder, a liberal bastion.:)

[neebob]

28. I'm in Durango

which people keep telling me is actually conservative, but that's not my experience. I'm familiar with Boulder because I went to high school in Arvada. I sneaked out one night and had quite the weird adventure riding around Boulder with my girlfriend, who thought we would find a party there. At one point she got her stepdad's Pinto wagon - which he didn't know she had taken - stuck in an L-shaped alley and ended up bashing some dumpsters out of the way to get out. Then she went up the canyon, drove too fast on the way back down, and did a cookie into the hillside when I yelled at her to slow down. Then we had a blowout in front of Rocky Flats and ended up getting some poor guy out of bed to change the tire at 4 a.m. I crawled back through my window and into bed just before my dad got up to go to church. I insisted I didn't know how the screen got bent, and he sort of believed me. I forget what Julie's stepdad thought had happened to the car, but it wasn't anything resembling the truth.

[DarkPhenyx]

16. Hey...the election is over.

Gore lost. Get over it.

[Mz Pip]

29. Gore really won

The South really lost.

MzPip
:dem:

[DarkPhenyx]

36. No, Gore didn't win.

He would be in teh White House had he won. This is why you need to get over it and quit deluding yourself.

[libertad]

91. Gore won the recount. Journalists recounted the votes and Gore won.

[DarkPhenyx]

102. Journalists don't decide elections.

Gore lost.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

9. Judge the person, not the hat.......

Even though the hat is crass, the person underneath is the one that deserves your scrutiny.

[Kamika]

17. Is he an immigrant?

My Mom and Dad actually had the confederate flag on our boat when I was small..

We had the Us flag, texas flag and confederate flag.. because someone had told my dad (who's from Korea) that it was like the flag of the south. And we just had it because we wanted to be proud over our country and stuff :P

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Whistle "Marching Through Georgia"

and see if he catches on....I do that or whistle "Battle Cry of Freedom" whenever I go by a Confederate monunment. Most folks wearing the battle flag of the army of northern VA have no clue what the songs are (they are patriotic Union songs).

[GOPisEvil]

25. I would have some serious doubt about anyone wearing a hat like that.

At best they're ignorant...at worst...well, I hope it's not the worst.

[tedoll78]

27. replace in your question..

the word "Confederate" with "Nazi."

He's wearing a hat of an enemy nation/group/you get the idea.

[Jim__]

31. Tough question

Reading through the answers here, it seems like a lot of people don't consider the Confederate flag to be a symbol of racism - so, maybe your friend's husband doesn't think of it that way. But, I have to wonder, are there a lot of African-Americans in Durango? Most African-Americans I know consider it to be a racist symbol. I wonder if he's ever had any bad reactions from people - people who were insulted by what they think it means. If he knows a lot of people consider it insulting and continues to wear it, that does tell you something about him.

[neebob]

32. There are very few African-Americans in Durango -

less than one percent of one percent, I'll bet. There are even fewer, I'm sure, in the town where my friend and her husband live.

[Robb]

46. According to the census

...we've got exactly four over here in Ouray (nearest town). I've never seen them.

:shrug:

(on edit, the point I wanted to actually make):

Just because you could walk around town with a hat that said "All Blacks Must Hang" without getting hassled much doesn't make it right.

[neebob]

52. So you're in Ouray?

I drove by your home on the way to this party on Saturday. Next time I'll wave.

[Robb]

55. Ha!

:hi:

Closer to Ridgway, actually. You're in Durango? Sorry your ski mountain got a lame new name! :D

[neebob]

59. Sure, it's got a fancy name

but it works the same. I should like to try yours some time, but it's way 'spensive and lots of black diamonds I hear. I'm more of a greenish blue skier.

[Robb]

66. :-)

Give us a PM if ya do!

[Jim__]

75. That's true

But, my thought is that some people who display a Confederate flag don't consider it racist. Once they know that it is offensive to a number of people, then continuing to display it takes on a new significance.

[neebob]

56. Note to self

Don't start threads about Confederate flag wearers. I'm off to work, lips zipped about the stupid hat.

[OhioStateProgressive]

69. sure not

Only racists wear the flag...they may try to rationlize and say something different. But we all know the truth about Confederate flags.

[Mrs. Venation]

99. Any Time One Says "Only" or "Always" or "Never"

a big can of stinky stuff has been opened up. Look, I don't have anything with the Confederate battle flag on it. I don't display it. I understand that some people find it offensive, and I try to be sensitive to that.

But I do know people who display that symbol, in one form or another, who are not racist bigots. It is simply false to state that "only" racists wear the flag.

""But we all know the truth about" people who make sweeping generalizations, don't we? They can't support their opinons with logic so they fall back on a fallacy.

See how that stings?

edited to correct typo

[alarcojon]

106. Only racists and people insensitive or clueless to the feelings of

African Americans would wear the Confederate flag. Fair characterization?

[Mrs. Venation]

107. No, That Is Not A Fair Characterization

But I don't know what else I can say about the subject since it seems that minds are closed.

[alarcojon]

108. My mind is open

despite what you insinuate. Actually, you don't even bother to insinuate it.

I am considering your own words, which is why I responded to this particular post of yours.

Look, I don't have anything with the Confederate battle flag on it. I don't display it. I understand that some people find it offensive, and I try to be sensitive to that.

You yourself understand that the flag is offensive to some, and refrain from displaying it for that reason. Doesn't it follow that others either don't understand that it is offensive to others or don't care? Doesn't this follow logically, unless you deny the FACT that most African-Americans find the flag offensive?

If you don't understand that the Confederate flag offends most African-Americans, that doesn't make you a racist bigot, although I would have to say it makes you pretty clueless about the history of this country. If you understand and don't care, then you are a racist. I suspect that you and I have different operational definitions of the word "racist".

Perhaps some other minds on this thread are closed. Please treat my thoughts as if mine is open. I am honestly trying to understand this issue, and it is important to me.

[Mrs. Venation]

109. Not Understanding and Not Caring Are Two Different Things

And I don't know for a fact that most African Americans find the flag offensive. I know many African Americans, but I don't know them all, and I haven't seen any reputable data that indicate your stated opinion as fact.

Not understanding that the flag offends some people makes one a racist bigot? Good Lord. Again, here we go with sweeping generalizations. Would you think it was fair if I said everyone in Boston is a racist bigot because of the riots that occurred when the public schools there were racially integrated?

My not displaying the flag is my choice, for my own reasons. As I have said, I do not associate it with slavery and racism. There are many more aspects to southern culture, and I think a lot of the things that are good about the south are ignored because people want to associate the south only with the war, racism and ignorance.

I know people who display the flag; those people are not bigots. This is my own story here, my own history, my own experience. You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the truth of my life.

I apologize for offending you; my statement about closed minds was intended in a more general sense because of the ongoing tirades in this thread.

[alarcojon]

110. I still think that most

African Americans are offended by the Confederate flag. I took a quick online look, and couldn't find any polling data either way. I do know that the NAACP has long opposed the Confederate flag, and anecdotally I have seen lots of opposition (I grew up in Chicago and have lived in New Orleans, California, and the Twin Cities area). But if you have hard data to support your position, I would be happy to look at it.

I really should have used the word "most" rather than "some" in my earlier post. I guess I was just being overly diplomatic. I certainly meant "some" to mean "a significant percentage". Again, I think it is "most", and probably by a large majority. I would be very curious if there was a difference by region.


This is my own story here, my own history, my own experience. You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the truth of my life.

Where have I denied the truth of your life? For the record, I respect your opinion. I just disagree with your main point. I read your earlier posts, and you argue passionately and eloquently about the positive aspects of Southern culture. I agree with you that they are generally overlooked, and that that is a shame. But that has little bearing on whether or not the Confederate flag offends African Americans. You seem to be lumping me in with some other posters.


I apologize for offending you; my statement about closed minds was intended in a more general sense because of the ongoing tirades in this thread.

I was not offended, just trying to impress upon you that I am willing to listen. And trying to decide if I wanted to keep responding to this thread.

[Mrs. Venation]

111. I Try To Present My Opinions

in a manner which is respectful. I try to avoid logical fallacies, such as sweeping generalizations, and I try not to present opinion as fact. I think that some people who have responded to this thread (and this is not directed at you) have misrepresented opinion as fact.

I don't know of any method to poll every person of color in the USA to determine their feelings about the flag. It's simply logistically impossible. I think, therefore, it is not factual to state that most African Americans are offended by that symbol.

It's an extremely emotional issue; I don't think many people are ambivalent about it. As I said in another post, however, those people who are racist bigots and who display the Confederate battle flag love nothing more than to annoy the targets or their bigotry. Why give them that much power?

Many people who have a same-sex orientation have taken the sting out of epithets that were used as weapons against us by embracing the words. Do you think that ten years ago there would have been a television program, even on cable, called, "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," or "Queer as Folk?" My point here is that we empower our own oppression by allowing benign objects, such as a piece of cloth sewn on a cap, to make us feel small, or hated, or debased in some manner.

I'm not saying it's an easy journey, but I think it's one that is worthwhile. Take the power away from the symbol, and the symbol will fade into obscurity.

[alarcojon]

112. A good exchange

I'm glad that this exchange has taken place. While I think we still disagree about the level of offense the Confederate flag provokes in African Americans, we have gotten to a level of civility which I wish were more the norm on DU (and in society at large!). Just a couple of thoughts:

1) I agree that it is logistically difficult to find true feelings about the flag among people of color. My experience primarily as a Midwesterner tells me that most are offended, yours as a Southerner tells you most are not. Neither of us has objective evidence. Nevertheless, we both err on the side of caution with respect to controversial symbols such as the Confederate flag, and I wish others would do the same. It's just hard enough as it is to tell the racists from the non-racists in this society.

2) I agree that we give the flag too much power when we are offended by it. However, for me as a person of color (I am Latino) seeing the flag provokes a feeling of self-preservation, because it increases the probability of racial animus. I know that not everyone that flies the flag means me or mine harm, but it's not a chance I want to have to take.

3) Symbols have more power than we wish them to; just look at how the Republicans manipulate the American flag...

[Mrs. Venation]

113. I Don't Know If Most People of Color

are not offended by the Confederate battle flag; that's been one of the points I've been trying to make here. No one can actually know if that's so.

The point I've been trying so diligently to make is that it is unfair and wrong to state that everyone who displays that symbol is a racist bigot. Are most people who display it bigots? I don't know. I don't think that data are determinable, either. When I am in the deep south, and I see a hat, t-shirt, license plate frame, etc., with the Confederate battle flag surrounded by the phrase, "Forget, Hell!" I think I can safely surmise the odious bigotry represented by the symbol.

When I see a t-shirt, etc., with the flag, and the words, "American By Birth, Southern By The Grace of God," it's not so obvious. One person might see this and be quite offended; another person might see the same thing and think it quite benign. In fact, I used to have a t-shirt like that and I wore it until it was suitable only for a car wash rag. I don't have a racist bone in my body, alarcoeg. In fact, I could tell you a couple of stories that illustrate my loathing of racism, but to do that publicly would be, in my opinion, rather like the Pharisees. If you want to PM me I will share two stories with you.

As to the republicans co-opting the American flag, I couldn't agree more. It seems like they have decided our flag belongs only to them and the people who agree with them. I have often wondered, though, how Native Americans feel about the American flag. Certainly their oppression was perpetrated under this banner. Does it represent to some of them the same thing that the Confederate battle flag represents to some people of color?

'tis a puzzlement to me.

BTW, my name is Kathy. Please feel free to address me by my name if you wish.

[Skittles]

77. NO YOU ARE NOT

THAT PIECE OF SHIT FLAG IS A F***ING DISGRACE.

[thebigidea]

80. oh, you're just saying that because you're "stuck up"

there's justtttt soooo much HERITAAAAGE in that flag, so much to respect.

(cue Skittles response, somewhere along the lines of "I'll tell you where you can stick that flag up...")

[Skittles]

83. THAT HERITAGE IS A F***ING DISGRACE

I'm sick of hearing that feeble excuse for displaying a symbol of hate and oppression.

[thebigidea]

87. its a pretty weak excuse, isn't it.

I mean, if you wanna talk heritage - shit, talk Faulkner, talk wonderful food, music, art... but that goddamn flag? Geez.

[Mrs. Venation]

100. Skittles, As Much As I Appreciate

the courage of your convictions, this time you are simply wrong. Instead of telling people what they think, how about asking them?

[Skittles]

103. you MUST be kidding

I live in Texas and work around people who role-play that damn war. I ask them all the time and their answers are just plain NONSENSE.

[Mrs. Venation]

105. Well, No, I Am Not Kidding

Are you going to say that everyone in Texas is a Civil War re-enactor who is a racist bigot? That would be so wrong, Skittles, that I can't even imagine it.

I won't beat this drum any more on this thread; I realize it's an emotional issue and that some people simply cannot approach it with an open mind. I find that sad.

[SoCalDem]

79. Buy him a new hat.. give it to him and tell him the other one

is a symbol of racism, and you "know" he's not one..:)

[Robb]

86. Mrs. Robb had a great comment on this

...just now, thought I'd share.

Her point is that the symbol has been completely co-opted. It's not about Southern pride and heritage, it's about slavery. Claiming otherwise is like wearing a shirt with Charles Manson on it and claiming you just admire his musical prowess.

Southerners whose feelings are hurt by the knee-jerk reaction to the Confederate Flag are somewhat trumped by the feelings that flag instills in those who are hurt by it. Unfortunately for the South, only those who are hurt by something can reclaim the symbol; sort of like reclaiming language (gay folks and "queer", Vagina Monologues and "cunt").

For example, if German Jews and gypsies wanted to reclaim the swastika, arguably a symbol of changing seasons, they would have a right to. But any German authority body would not.

As you can probably tell, Mrs. Robb is a hell of a lot smarter than me. :)

[Cat Atomic]

97. We'll never get rid of assholes.

They might as well be clearly labeled.

[silverlib]

104. That's a great reply...

Are you Molly Ivans? That was just tooo good.