Do Women like jerks?

[coloradodem2005]

I have always been a nice guy. As a result, I have been completely brushed off during high school and college. The women that say they like nice guys are the worst ones. I have seen a lot of guys who are jerks get the girl. It does not matter that these guys view them as no more than objects. They always seem to get them. Me, I get brushed off by everyone. I try to be confident, I am a gentleman, I like talking and am entertaining. I would never treat a woman like a lesser human being. Well, fuck it. None of them ever want to give me a legitimate chance, and it does not matter how smart or funny I am. It does not matter how nice I am. It does not even atter how confident I am. Women may not like jerks, but they sure don't like me.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

1. I like nice guys!

It seems like a lot of other women go for the jerks, but I always go for the funny, intelligent and sweet ones.

[drb]

2. Well, yeah. I've always tried to be nice...

...and if I had a nickle for every brown helmet I've gotten as a result, I'd be eligible for Bushy Boy's tax cuts.

There are times when you have to be kind of an asshole. Believe it or not, women like to be pushed away a little. It also helps a lot - A LOT - if you have money, or the perceived potential to make a lot of money.

Wealthy, maybe a little mysterious, and kind of a prick.

[mhr]

3. You Are Not Alone In Your Observation. It Seems That Many Women

Want the challenge of turning these guys around.

In other words, for these women relationships are all about rehabilitation and therapy.

Or some of them seen to want the constant emotional letdowns to keep the relationship exciting.

This gives them something to gossip with their girlfriends.

My johnny is such a bad boy, etc.

[Demonaut]

89. totally true....a great many women like assholes, but nice guys

do create problems when they treat the opposite sex as an equal. Many women want decisions made for them.

[alarcojon]

4. I hear you

My story is similar to yours. The good news is, I eventually met a very sweet woman and have been married to her for three very happy years.

[unblock]

5. your turn will come

my experience has been that women under 30 or so do tend to prefer more, um, volatile guys, exciting relationships with ups and downs.

they eventually learn to see the upside in what they once thought of as boring: responsible, calming, reassuring, caring, steady, dependable, etc.


then again, many guys are often the same way, preferring, um, volatile women, exciting relationships with ups and downs until they learn, well, pretty much the same thing....

[Jade Fox]

6. teen-age girls, and many women as well...

suffer from massive low self esteem, which causes them to not value anyone
who values them.

Plus women are still raised to think that the quality of their life depends on
who their man is, so they are impressed with the males that others are
impressed with.

It sucks, I know. But a funny thing happens when women grow up. A lot
of us remember that sweet, funny guy who was nice to us and think.
"Gee, what the hell was the matter with me? He was great!"

I say keep looking for someone who likes herself, and can appreciate you.

[coloradodem2005]

8. Well....

...it's a bunch of bullshit. I am 24. I am tired of being brushed off by them. I try to be a respectful and yet I ain't worth the time of day because women would rather be with some guy that treats them like shit. Fuck them all.

[Jade Fox]

14. I'm sorry this is happening to you....

On behalf of women everywhere, I apologize.

You might try women over 30. Lots of them have gotten beyond all this
crap.

Good luck :hug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. I bet you are ignoring the very women who

would like you, because they're not conventionally considered "attractive."

By the way, why would a woman go with a guy who is so bitter?

[Susang]

7. It may seem that way

But it's not really true and trust me, the reverse seems true for you men as well. The reality is far more complex than that.

People are attracted to different things in a partner and you can never tell what that is until you get involved. Everyone brings their own unique baggage to the relationship and this affects what happens in it.

The best advice I could give you is to learn to like/love yourself first, as it makes all of the difference. In my experience (all 38 years of it) the one thing women are overwhelmingly attracted to is self-confidence. I would hazard a guess and say that is true with men in regards to women. Concentrate on yourself and your interests and try to let the rest fall into place. It almost always does without any extra help. :-)

[Ready4Change]

9. Some ladies prefer jerks, others are wiser.

I know a few women who seem to only be able to get interested in "dangerous" men. That danger get's them excited, and they equate that with love and passion. After a while, they find that "dangerous" usually equals "jerk", and the relationship blows up. They then swear off men because "all men are jerks."

Then, two weeks later, they've met the most intriguing, exciting guy...

Those women are addicted. I've noticed they've often had problems with their fathers. I also don't know any way of getting them out of the cycle of failed relationships. They can't form a lasting relationship with the dangerous jerks, and they can't become interested in the nice guys. The women like this I know acknowlege these facts, but can't change their wiring. (I don't know of any who have sought any forms of therapy for it.)

To some extent, I think many girls start off wanting that dangerous excitement. But at some point they wise up and realize that stability means something. That's when the nice guys start getting plucked up.

So hang in there. :)

[fudge stripe cookays]

72. Good observation

A mini-description of me, actually.

Only don't forget that it might not be a "problem" with a father necessarily. It could also be an absent one (mine died when I was 13).

After years of trying for the exciting ones and feeling no spark with the average ones, I somehow got lucky enough to find an "average yet exciting" one.

All of you still looking, don't give up. But realize that exciting is often a delusion. And don't discount the average ones. They're the best, you just haven't realized it yet.

[Nikia]

10. Some do, but I don't

I married a nice guy who had been turned down a few times because he was too nice. Those silly girls. Good for me. Too bad for them.
I have a coworker who is older than my mother who is also in love with a jerk and finally is living with him and has him all to herself (That hadn't been the case for most of their time together). She has made the statement which frankly scares me: "I love my man because he doesn't take crap from anyone, including me." Since he isn't a nice guy in general, she gushes over the moments when he actually treats her decently. Sad.
Actually, I think you are lucky that these type of women aren't attracted to you. I also know nice guys that did manage to have relationships with such girls who said things like "Why don't you ever want to fight with me, don't you love me?"

[gmoney]

11. find the balance

Too often, nice is seen as bland... you have to find a way to be a little "edgy" or "naughty" without compromising who you really are. There has to be some element of adventure or intrigue about you--I'm living proof that "nice" alone won't do it.

"Faint heart never won fair hand..."

[coloradodem2005]

16. I hate women.

I sometimes feel. I am not trying to be a mysoginist but, I am tired of being fucked over. Especially by those who say they like nice guys. I am sorry to whomever I may have offended by the above statement and I am not trying to be mean, I am just really angry at all of the treatment that I have received from women throughout my life.

[Susang]

19. Now come on

You may be angry at women now, but posting that you hate them is a little extreme perhaps, particularly for a progressive forum such as this?

We've all been hurt and we've all been fucked over, some by men, some by women. The maturity lies in seeing that it is not the entire gender that is responsible for one person's actions. It can help shape them, but the individual has to bear the responsibility.

[coloradodem2005]

21. I am sorry.

But there have been too many to count. I apologize. I am just really angry.

[Darth_Kitten]

33. Cool down. ;)

Come on, just give women a rest right now. You have plenty of time to meet the right person.

Yes, young women (and some older ones) seem to have no regard for themselves and make fools of themselves over real losers.

[NashVegas]

12. Bill Hicks Said We Do

So it must be so.

When we're young, we want excitement, we enjoy the challenge of a jerk. Nice guys aren't all that exciting.

Then you have the confusing societal messages we grow up with, the virgin/whore syndrome. If you aren't the good girl, you must be the bad girl and therefore should leave the nice boys alone lest you break their hearts.

There's also this: no matter how nice you think you are, and how well you think you treat us, that doesn't necessarily mean you like us - really like us.

Do you (universal you) treat us well because you've been taught to believe you're supposed to? Or do you treat us well because it's just fun?

In my 40 years, I can count on one hand the number of men I've known who genuinely like women and take joy from our presence in general, sexual involvement or not. And you'd better believe we pick up on it and are drawn to them like flies on shit. Those are the guys who never have a problem getting laid - regardless whether they're a jerk or a nice guy.

[Susang]

13. Also...A Question

Are you interesting in the "nice girls"?

I often hear men discussing how women aren't interested in them because they are nice men. Then I am introduced to their choices in dates and find that they themselves are going after the female equivalent of the "bad boy". I've bartended for about 20 years and would listen to this over and over again.

When I would suggest they talk to an interesting woman who was sitting alone at the bar, invariably I would be answered with "No, she's too fat" or "No, she's not attractive enough". Then the man would proceed to try and hook up with the most attractive woman in the room, no matter how many times he would get shot down.

Sometimes the problem works both ways, you see.

[NicoleM]

17. Bingo!

I was a "nice girl" but pretty assertive (not bitchy, assertive). Guys liked me as a friend but I don't know if I wasn't girly enough or pliable enough or what because things almost never progressed past the friend stage. I never had any interest in the "bad boy" type, but the "nice boys" always looked past me toward the cheerleaders. And then one day I met a nice boy who wasn't afraid of me and wasn't looking for a cheerleader, and we lived happily ever after.

It does work both ways.

[coloradodem2005]

18. Well the thing is She seemed nice.

I can tell you definitively, that she did not come off like the women you described. Some might have even argued that she was not pretty in the traditional sense, but I certainly thought she was pretty. The thing I liked about her is that it seemed like we could talk about god knows what for hours on end. We talked for two hours straight. We have a lot in common. There is not a lot we disagree on. We like movies, politics, beer, music, bowling. This is why I thought she was so interesting and why I enjoyed her presence. It is not some shallow bullshit.

[Susang]

20. I wasn't calling you shallow

I was just posing questions. Relationships do not occur in a vacuum. One person/gender cannot bear the sole responsibility for a relationship's failure. It really does involve two people.

[NicoleM]

23. A story.

Once upon a time I was hanging out with a guy from school. We spent a couple of hours eating fries and talking about random stuff. I just thought we were friendly acquaintances hanging out on a Saturday night. Then he told me that he used to think I was really annoying, but now he liked me and he was going to go out with me. He didn't ask, he told. I told him I wasn't looking for a relationship right then, which was true because I knew I was going to quit school in a few weeks.

Anyway, the point is that he and I interpreted the same situation *completely* differently--I thought we were just hanging out and he thought we were on some sort of date. There could be all kinds of reasons why she doesn't want to go out with you. Maybe she's got the hots for somebody else. Maybe you said something that rubbed her the wrong way. The only way you're going to know is if you ask.

[Kamika]

15. *shrug* I like nice guys

The thing is.

Most nice guys are incredibly shy and have low self esteem.. and THAT is something I don't like.


I'd never go for a jerk though

[RandomKoolzip]

22. No. Unapproachably stunningly gorgeous women do, though.

Hot-looking women who you'll never ever have a chance with like jerks. Pushy, macho assholes who treat them like dirt. Overconfident, testosterone-addicted swingin' dicks. I don't know why it is, but every woman I've known who I find intimidatingly attractive always hooked up with the Jeff Conway character from "Grease."

Real women, who have brains and feelings and don't look like they just stepped off the pages of Playboy, like regular guys.....who don't have a lot of issues, are confident, and have a decent job. It helps to not be fat, too (don't get me started on THAT one.....)

[Kamika]

24. heh yes

It helps not being the comic book guy from the Simpsons.

Seriously though.. you can't say ALL Hot-looking women who you'll never ever have a chance with, like jerks.. Because that's simply not true.

[RandomKoolzip]

25. No, but it makes me feel better.

And it's mostly true....Who in their right mind would ever date assholes like Tommy Lee? Mickey Roarke? Dennis Rodman? 50 Cent? Ike Turner? Kid Rock? Oh, yeah, that's right, REALLY HOT CHICKS.

[Kamika]

30. uhmm gold diggers

I'm sure alot of ugly girls would like those guys aswell...

It's just that they can buy the hot golddiggers

[Kat45]

35. In my experience, it works both ways.

You wrote:
"Hot-looking women who you'll never ever have a chance with like jerks. Pushy, macho assholes who treat them like dirt. Overconfident, testosterone-addicted swingin' dicks. I don't know why it is, but every woman I've known who I find intimidatingly attractive always hooked up with the Jeff Conway character from "Grease."

I find the same is true of guys. Good looking guys tend to go for the bitch-goddesses. Some not-so-good-looking guys too. And many of these good looking guys are nice guys as well (at least many of the ones who I know). Then the guy will complain endlessly about her, yet go for the same thing next time. I find myself, a nice woman (who is considered attractive, albeit not gorgeous) relegated to the role of 'friend' or 'f*buddy.' Now, there is nothing wrong with being either of these things--I rather enjoy them--but sometimes I'd like to be the girlfriend, and eventually I'd like to be the wife. (And if I'd be someone's f*buddy, I'd probably be inclined to go out with him, but that does not seem to be true for men.)

[mitchum]

26. No, they like we bad boys...

who can actually be pretty nice when we're inclined to do so. It's a gambit that always works.

[philosophie_en_rose]

27. Not really.

There are women who are very codependent or are trapped in bad relationships or cling to good memories in the relationship, but I don't think that most women are that way. And, if they are, then a nice guy can do them a favor by being a good friend and supporting them through a difficult time until she's ready for a new relationship.

One thing to keep in mind is that women who are treated badly might not trust you at first. I once dated a guy that spit on the street and it landed on a homeless person he didn't see. He didn't regret it. Instant breakup.

After that, I'm still a little leary of wasting my energy on these kinds of jackasses.

Be a nice guy. I guess you could try to be a jerk and see how that works for you, but do you really want to be the jerk that treats his girlfriend badly? Maybe you should meet new people.

:shrug:

[southerngirlwriter]

28. SOME women do, and here's why.

It's evolutionary. Females who intend to procreate are biologically driven to find an alpha-male to ensure the strongest offspring. Alpha-males tend to be assholes. :shrug:

I like nice guys. I've only met one in my life (not counting my brother, my first cousin, and my adopted daddy, who aren't candidates for a sexual relationship). :shrug:

[PVnRT]

29. Plenty do

They want drama more than stability, because drama is more exciting, or something, who knows.

It helps if you're a hottie, trust me, which I am not, which is why I've given up.

[camero]

31. You don't have to be a jerk

Just stand up for yourself. The ones who would reject you aren't worth having around in the first place.

Most young women have a romanticized view of a relationship. Think romance novels. And guys do too just not along those lines. It involves trying to hold onto something for the sake of holding on to it. Such as trying to prove to yourself that you can stay in a relationship when it might be better not to have that and look elsewhere.

If a woman doesn't treat you right, get rid of her. Immediately. There are lots of women out there. The minute you don't care is the minute they will be flocking to you.

[Bridget Burke]

32. Deal with your anger...

You sound a bit like a jerk right now. Let's hope it's only temporary.

Do you have any female friends? Ask them for an assessment. Or do you give any woman 2 hours to fall in love with you--& then drop her if she doesn't.

Not every guy can be handsome, but your appearance might need some buffing up. You may not be rich, but you need to be self-supporting.

[coloradodem2005]

41. your assessment.

My jerk-ishness is temporary. I have a few female friends but it has been a while since I talked to them. I don't expect a woman to fall in love with me. I just get hurt when brushed off. I am really nice usually. I like to hang out and have good conversations. I would just at least like the possibility of a continual dialogue without getting brushed off.

On another note, I have been told that I am quite cute. As for my supporting situation, she knows that I have not been in a good situation and it didn't seem to stop her from wanting to meet me.

[TXlib]

81. Bridget Burke's suggestion is an excellent one

Enlist the help of your female friends.

Tell them about your problem, and see if they can suggest anything to remedy it, or introduce you to friends of theirs they think might work for you.

Also, are you very picky about the woman's physical appearance? I have a male friend who is always bemoaning his single status. There is absolutely nothing wrong with him... he is smart, has a good job, high income, he's politically middle-of-the-road, pretty interesting, and a good friend. He's not going to win any Mr. America contests, though, but he's not unnatractive, either.

His only problem, as I see it, is he is way too picky about the appearance of women. That severely limits the pool of women he will consider. Plus, I think most people tend to date in their own attractiveness-class, if that makes any sense.

[lazarus]

34. People often don't really know what they want...

Edit - oops, Laz was logged in, and I posted under his account - oh well.

Anyway - in my experiance, people too often want the shiny, the pretty, the unattainable because it's "different" or they want a nice accessory at that time of their lives. Many times, people (especially young adults) are scared of a "relationship" and would make time with the cardboard public personality of someone they sense is easier to drop in case something goes wrong rather than the person they respect and could actually, possibly love or make an emotional investment in.

Most of the posts above have good reasons why many men and women are attracted to jerks.

I've found the best way to have a real relationship is to be honest with both yourself and those you want to have one with - and that includes simple friendships.
Know what you want and understand the consequences of that personality - if all you want a pretty wrist dangle and "f***-buddy" - be honest with that person about that fact. Recognize that too many people don't understand the difference between a one-night stand with someone that should just be a friend, and someone they might want to have a lifetime partnership with - nor can they accept that difference.
If you want that partnership, understand that many people are afraid to commit to a total relationship until they are set and comfortable in their own lives - and that there are many people out there who use flattery and submission as a method for control in a relationship. You may have to wait until you're, say, thirty or fourty before you find an honest partner that's willing to live with you as you are (for the most part).

Be sure to realize that life is not a fairy tale and people aren't stereotypes or archetypes - there's no Prince Charming or Sleeping Princess that's going to love you unconditionally once they realize you're the one for them after all the sacrifices you make for them. If you feel you have to save someone from circumstances, it's okay to be friends, but please - hold off on marrying them until you're sure your emotional investment can be reciprocated. Saving partners who will then "love you forever" almost never works - unless the partner is wired not to feel resentment over the exposures of their own weaknesses or is not a control freak.

Anyway good luck and try not to get hung up on the appearance of rejection - especially from the average run of young women who haven't decided if they are going to be self-sufficient, dependent, or otherwise ready for a lifetime partnership in their lives. Accomplishments, education and humor have nothing to do with emotional maturity.

After all, I waited until I was 42 before I got married - and by then, I had lost most of my slim good looks and a lot of my physical flexibility. It isn't as if I wasn't around a lot of men who were smart, educated, funny, and wanting to marry me for one reason or another - in fact, I have a lot of male friends who are just that - friends. It was that I was honest with my interactions with them, and had not found one that I was willing to be more than just friends with.

My advice - when you enter a relationship, never start out with "maybe this time, she's the one" - you'll always put too much emotional investment up front before you really get to know her. Just go out and have fun in her company, and after a while when you get to know her and she knows you a little more honestly, maybe then you both can start taking the relationship a bit farther.
If it doesn't work, let it go. It's better to just be friends. After all, who knows - the one you let go might just be the one to introduce you to someone else that clicks with you - and everyone will be happy...
(People love to be match makers!)

Haele

[jpgray]

36. Unless you're cute, you'd better be wealthy or a 'mysterious' asshole

Or have reasonable standards as to who you're going to date. ;-)

edit: Oh yeah, and DON'T try to date people who are already your good friends who you talk to for hours. Most of the time it doesn't work.

[coloradodem2005]

40. My standards were not the issue.

All I wanted to do was talk to her.


On another note, you seem to be telling me that women are shallow. You either need to have it all going on for you in terms of money, be good looking or be a jerk.

[jpgray]

44. If you're going for someone outside your range, you need those things (nt)

[PurityOfEssence]

37. confidence is attractive, and it's culturally programmed as a plus

You're dealing with lots of shadowy emotional issues here, and it's impossible to really talk about it without either sounding mealy-mouthed or cynical.

As Julia Phillips put it in "You'll Never Eat Lunch In This Town Again", everyone's trying to "fuck up", meaning that everyone wants to get an unfair advantage by getting someone more powerful, richer, prettier or whatever than they are. Since women have been programmed to be subservient and little more than support personnel, they're programmed to go ga-ga over raw power. Raw power is also dangerous, which is exciting all by itself. Hence, thugs, bikers, musicians, bullies and the like have a great deal of primitive and visceral appeal. (Mind you, I'm talking in generalizations; I'm a heretic: I DON'T THINK THERE'S VERY MUCH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MIND OF MAN AND THE MIND OF WOMAN. Science largely proves me out; the corpus colossum has the hemispheres talking better, but it's a mean distinction, and a wide range of mind biology spans the sexes.)

So yeah, it's cool to hang with the wild guys, and those same women are shocked when it's turned on them. (Women like thugs in Jaguars and are shocked when those guys slap them around.) It shouldn't be a mystery: assholes who take what they want will take it from you too; anyone who gets close is asking for it.

I would also suggest that you need to question what you're looking for. If you're looking only for beauty, you're going to lose anyway. Many who revel in their beauty are unable to truly be with anyone in the long run.

We're suckered by a lot of ethereal emotional stuff about love, and one of its principal functions is that we somehow back ourselves into the corner of believing that if one subjects one's emotional desires and tastes to logic, somehow one's sinned against the soul of love. This is poppycock. Figure out what you really need, and if it's realistic, it's findable.

Get out, get around, and see who actually likes you. Analyze what you've been looking for and make it work. Sometimes the easy solution is the best: if you want to find someone to be with, find someone who WANTS TO BE WITH YOU. I've seen many idiotic fixations by people who had others carrying a torch for them; their forlorn pursuers were often much more worthy people than those they pursued.

Women like assholes and get what they deserve. Men like fluffy little ornaments and hate it when they're useless. Women like friends and love those who make them laugh and have a good time. Men like strong women who don't have to prove it all the time, but can just be dependable. Everybody likes interesting people; the most prevalent trait of life is that IT'S BORING.

Take this one to the bank: most everyone in the world--by a wide majority--is emotionally fucked up. There's much more insanity and self-deception out there than is readily apparent. It works both ways: you probably are too.

Cutting against the expected grain is always tough: it's harder on shy men and forthright women than the reverse. In the end, though, the world's probably somewhat easier on shy men, because we are beaten into the submission of realizing that we have to force our way out of that mindset for mere survival, whereas shy women can often get by being that way. It catches up to them in the end, though.

Instead of falling for someone and trying to make the other side of the attraction work, why don't you try to find the other side already in tune, and see if YOU come around. Just a thought. Dammit.

[jpgray]

38. Come on though, when you crack the unattainable, that is SUCH a kick

I agree that 80% of the time you start loathing the girl since it's rarely a good match, but still, the fact that you can get there is pretty stimulating. :D And that goes both ways, I'm sure, for the girls who crack the bad boys and then get horribly burned later.

[coloradodem2005]

39. The thing I found interesting about her...

...was that she and I could have a good conversation.

[dorktv]

42. I think you are right on the jerk thing.

I wanted to spend time with my boyfriend last night and he told me I have too many 'needs.' What is wrong with wanting to spend three or four evenings with your man?

[Nikia]

43. Maybe, you're fixating on this instance a bit much

None of us know this particuliar girl even as well as you do. We don't know what sorts of issues she might have. Maybe, she just wanted friendship. Maybe, she is a jerk, herself.
Since monagamy is the ideal for most people, you only want one woman anyway. She wasn't the one. Maybe, you haven't even met your potential wife yet. Give the women of the world a chance.
Good luck.

[populistmom]

45. No, not in the least

I like very nice, wonderful men who frequently have the experience of other women seeing them as a friend (including my husband and those before him) and were often rather overwhelmed at first when they realized I felt something for them in return. Unfortunately though, in the life of every nice guy, there's always that one girl or woman who even the nice ones manage to hurt. On more than one occasion, I've been that girl or woman. Maybe with jerks, at least you know what you're dealing with, so you can't get too deep emotionally. Not that I've ever want one for a partner, but in a sense, I can understand why at times it would be simpler. Too bad I'm not simple.

[Tiberius]

46. time for a little pep talk

AH, young Obi-Won, there is much for you to learn.

Decipher you must the difference between women who actually like real "jerks", which may be a sign of unhealthy relationship patterns, and women who like men that do what they want with no apologies.

Educate yourself based on what women react to, not what they say. Poll a thousand women, and at the top of their list will be "I want a guy with a sense of humor" or "I want a nice guy".

But what you discover is that what really turns women on is a man who does NOT put them on a pedistal, does not treat them like some delicate flower, and is measured in his compliments and affection, at least in the beginning. If you really are the prize, if you truly believe it in your heart... then you don't NEED to do those things. Desperate men do those things. No matter how much women say they like it, it bores them deep down inside.

An example of this is the bar scene. The "nice guy" may buy a pretty girl a drink to strike up a conversation. The "jerk" may make some dumb, sexist comment because... well, he's a jerk. A man of true confidence, however, will simply walk up to her and say "hi". That take cajones. That's the middle ground you need to find.

May the force be with you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. When I was teaching college

I noticed that young guys had an almost magnetic attraction for attractive but super-bitchy women. The conventionally cute and fasionable girls with pouty attitudes always had guys swarming around them, while the non-bitchy ones sat in their dorms watching videos on Saturday night.

A male friend told me that when he was college age, he--for reasons that even he didn't understand--mistook bitchiness for passion.

Here's my suggestion. Go after the women that not everyone else is lusting after. Learn to be sensitive to the signals that women give off when they find a man attractive. (Ask a platonic friend.) There may be some woman that you would never look twice at because she's not the type that your male friends would go for, who nevertheless is very attracted to you.

Don't try so hard. You may be coming off as desperate, and that is VERY unattractive. Keep cool and look for an emotional rather than a purely physical attraction.

[mac56]

49. Overall, I find women are attracted to confidence.

Unfortunately, jerks are usually supremely confident.

The key is to be confident. Notice I didn't say "act" confident. If you behave in a confident manner, you're not "acting" - you're there.

[Enraged_Ape]

50. Chill out until your mid-to-late twenties. You will be a babe magnet.

I was once where you are. And yes, it was horribly frustrating. Young women, I believe, DO tend to go for guys who are assholes. But we live in a very competitive world, and it doesn't take very long before nice, stable, understanding, confident guys like us are the ones who win out. Just you wait and see.

[WillyBrandt]

51. Don't listen to this advice! Talk to girls in normal

locations--and maybe even in bars--like you're a great quantity.

You don't want to wait years to be getting busy left and right. The only thing is being able to comfortably say to yourself "fuck it!" and taking the plunge.

[Enraged_Ape]

55. First rule of winning anyone over...

is to act like you don't even care. Like your life is so cool and with it and so full of fun and excitement that you couldn't care less whether someone loved you. That's irresistible, for some reason.

[WillyBrandt]

56. What I've found--go out and try

Whenever you think someone's worth something for you--and then have it fizzle. Repeat. And repeat.

And then out of nowhere something wonderful will fall your way.

[Enraged_Ape]

57. I agree with you

And that's what happened with me.

It's kind of like the old Zen koan: If you seek it, you will not find it. If you have to ask, you will never know the answer.

[WillyBrandt]

58. Rather, if you seek it it will find you.

If you do not seek, nothing is gonna find nothing.

[Enraged_Ape]

59. Willy, I never had women ardently throwing themselves at me...

until I was happily married and absolutely unavailable. After decades of being a complete schmoe, suddenly I was like David Cassidy or something.

So rather than tell another questing soul to get married and actually BE unavailable, I simply advise them to ACT that way. There's just something about the guy that doesn't seem to care what happens in the way of romance. It's so...insouciant. (I don't even know what that means. I don't think I even spelled it correctly. But trust me, heterosexual women dig it.)

[WillyBrandt]

60. Hmm... I'm going to have to think about this!

My friend's tack was to NEVER PAY for the girl, no matter what. Until, of course, something developed and he was paying for a girlfriend instead of a prospect, if you will.

On the face of it it sounds crappy, but I sometimes wish I had followed his advice. I could have saved a lot of cash!

[camero]

61. EA is right on this

It works. I think they take it to mean that you are alright with who you are. Everyone has doubts, the key is to not outwardly appear so.

[mac56]

71. Beware, though.

Some may be attracted to it because they want to change it.

Experience talking here.

[camero]

84. You're right

Of course I'm too stubborn to change. :) I agree and it always helps to watch what they do and not what they say.

[Enraged_Ape]

Now, paying is another thing

By all means, if you actually do find yourself in the company of a woman, you absolutely MUST PAY. And no matter how expensive it is, and you must make it seem like it's NOTHING TO YOU even though it puts you deeper into trouble with your bookie and his muscular goons.

It's all part of that insouciance I was talking about.

[WillyBrandt]

63. I hear that--I was just impressed by my friend who refused to pay

=

[private_ryan]

82. you make a lot of sense for an Ape :)

a clock starts ticking and all of the sudden guys with jobs and goals are hot. Of course feminists will deny it, but it doesn't mean it's not true.

[furrylitldevil]

52. Perhaps it's just Colorado

Maybe something in the water perhaps. I've noticed the same thing, and it really does suck. Seems the more you press the situation, the more you try to "fix" it, the worse it gets. Perhaps what they say is true, when you stop looking for love, it will find you, though I've not seen it personally, and I stopped looking a while ago.

[flaminbats]

53. women, gals, godesses....lordesses..

they sometimes misunderstand kindness for eagerness...

and on the otherhand they take humor for mockery, thought for disinterest, love for lust, anger for passion, passion for anger, sadness for wimpyness, wimpyness for tragedy, roses for marriage proposals, no roses for a female fault, fun for distractions, and distractions as fun....

in short men are idiots so...enjoy! :loveya:

[WillyBrandt]

54. MOVE TO NEW YORK!

If you can, anyway.

More girls than guys. Girls everywhere. Lots of smart ones in StarBucks et al. Easy to make friends. You can start again.

[Fleshdancer]

62. jerks suck!

I do say I like nice guys, but I'm also able to back it up with my husband because I married a nice guy who felt just like you did before we met.

I have a few girlfriends who choose the worst assholes to date. I'm not a professional psychologist or anything, but I have noticed lower self-esteem in these particular friends. I flat out asked one friend why she dates the bottom of the barrel and her response was "I just don't think I deserve better". My heart broke hearing her say that because there was nothing I could say that would change her mind.

Here's the question of the day though: what makes you attracted to these women who are obviously jerks themselves for not appreciating a nice man? Sounds like you could be in a pattern of seeking out jerks just like they are.

[flaminbats]

65. These are good points...

When I date I don't rank the person I care for on appearance, esteem, or where they stand in the barrel...whatever this means.

Some of the best working women I knew came from the "bottom of the barrel".

And some of the meanest, shits I ever dated...although very pretty, were stinking rich! In summary, love and money are important in a relationship...but any are damned who make this their standard for judging human character.

[Fleshdancer]

66. I guess I wasn't very clear

when I say "bottom of the barrel" what I mean is someone who is a real asshole and treats people like crap. It wasn't meant to be class or money related at all. There are many MANY rich affluent people out there whom I would consider bottom of the barrel as far as dating them is concerned because they're just bad people.

[flaminbats]

69. ahhh...

like that sucky manager who screamed at the workers because we got there on time.

[neebob]

64. I used to like jerks

but now I like smart men. Funny is good, too, but lose the whine about women liking jerks. Women who like jerks are stupid.

[TrogL]

67. Jerks socialize well

even while they're being jerks.

Women go for socializers.

[MurikanDemocrat]

68. Not this woman!

[Seldona]

70. It isn't about being 'nice' at all.

It is about being confident, that is it.

Perhaps what you perceive as woman liking 'jerks' is a result of 'jerks' tending to be very confident in their self image, correct or not.

And you cannot 'try' to be confident.

Maybe the best actors can but for the most part women will pick up on your perceived discomfort, or view, that there is something about you that they should not like. Namely that you are nice.

I suggest relaxing and try to take a view that it doesn't really matter if you meet someone or not.

It seems the times in my life I was looking the hardest it never happened.

The second I stopped looking it was usually right in front of me the entire time.

Just my experience. Perhaps it is not relevant to your life at all.

Not ALL women like jerks.

And not all men are internally confidant.

Work on you, the rest will follow.

[MissMillie]

73. Think it's any different on the other side of the coin?

I've always treated my boyfriends nice, but not one of them (and there have been plenty) ever bothered to stick around.

My last beau and I got into a fight once and I asked him, "How many times have I ever said 'no' to you, for anything?" He said, "I don't think you've ever said 'no' to me."

Whatever he wanted, I tried to make it happen.... how's that for being nice? After 3 years, when I was looking to settle down, all I got from him was, "I'm not ready." Well, why the hell should he bother to get ready? He could be single and still have a woman in his life who never said 'no.'

[flaminbats]

80. I know what you mean...

The 20th century was the era of bonders and breakers. I predict the 21st century will become era of drifters and risers...:scared:

[Heyo]

74. It's because you are no challenge to them....

Women will mostly like a man that they cannot quite tame... almost, but not quite.

Heyo

[BiggJawn]

75. Sure they do.

That's why nice guys like us spend so many nights alone. Or we get hooked up with the psych cases "working through" their issues from their last relationship.

(disclaimer: I've really been used, abused, and kicked to the curb a lot in my life, so excuse me if I seem extra-bitter-flavoured on this subject)

[ScreamingMeemie]

76. My father used to tell people I hung out in front of the County Jail...

waiting for boyfriends. :eyes: Sadly, he was not too far off the mark. The silver lining is, that when I was ready to settle down, I picked the nice guy. MrGrumpy is a door holder, arm guider and all the rest. I love that about him!!!

:hi:

[private_ryan]

87. do you still bail your old boyfriends out?

;)

[TXlib]

77. Some women like jerks, but more importantly, women don't like doormats

except to wipe their feet on.

Don't confuse being a nice guy with being a doormat (Think of the song _Low Self Esteem_).

I am NOT saying this is your problem; there certainly is nothing written in your post to suggest that.

This is just advice from a former doormat who figured out what his problem was.

You may want to try online dating; you get a good chance to get to know somebody before you meet them physically, and that helps for some people.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. "Nice" guys

If you are all of a sudden "Sir Walter Raleigh laying his cloak down in the mud" nice to a woman you barely know, you come across as desperate, and nothing will send the ladies running in the opposite direction faster, *especially* if they have had experience with a stalker, as I did in my early twenties.

My stalker started out as a "nice guy," and he appeared that way to other people, but the only thing that finally stopped him was that we both graduated from college and went to separate states. While it lasted, it was very unnerving: he would arrange to be outside the door as I left each class, he would stand outside the dorm to follow me to dinner, he had an uncanny ability to find me wherever I was, he would tell other people that we were engaged, and he played up to my mother when she came to visit, so that she kept asking why I was "so mean" to that "nice boy." I stopped studying in the library or going out to the snack bar in the evening, and for the first time in my four years, I was glad that we had a non-coed dorm with no male visitors allowed. What was so threatening about him? Well, his infatuation started after I had had *one* casual conversation with him, and there was something in his stubborn cluelessness that screamed "not entirely in touch with reality."

For about ten years afterward, any man who approached me with what I called the "whipped puppy look" or who came on too strong after a casual encounter completely spooked me.

I really think you should ask a female friend to analyze the way you come across to women.

Men may think they know what women like, and women may think they know what men like, but both are wrong. An example that may be meaningful to you is that a lot of women are on constant diets because they believe that men like the emaciated Calista Flockhart look. On the other hand, a lot of men believe that they have to be buff to attract women. Also not true.

So if you're wondering what women like, don't ask a man, especially not equally clueless guys your own age.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

79. nope!

Because I am a great guy, who is nice, funny as hell, and cute, all with a wonderful, intelligent, beautiful, sweet girlfriend. Don't hate us because we're beautiful.

[Lindsey]

85. I think that a woman who has been into self-actualization and

is somewhat spiritually evolved would and are very attracted to nice guys. I'm a lesbian but I honestly believe that people are people. I find as I'm growing, I am TOTALLY attracted to nice people who treat me great (and I try to do the same for them). I had one relationship that went on for two years and the woman was extremely difficult. I was not close to where I am now (metaphysically) and as this point in my life, I don't even want friends who don't treat others in a loving kind way. It all just depends on where people are on their path. I'm not a church goer but I do attend seminars, lectures, etc. that attract like-minded people and that's a real good place to meet "the one."

[tsakshaug]

86. my story

I consider myself a nice guy.

After my first wife was done with me....her choice to end the marrage not mine. I started dating. The first one was looking for a "nice guy" with a "good job" and all that..that is what our mutual friend told me before she set us up. We dated a short time...we really didn't click, but I felt she was not really trying.
She then set me up with her best friend (we are now married) The first on still calls my wife to complain about the men she is dating..the controling jerks who don't have a job...just want sex and the like. My thoughts are-Oh well....you let a good one get away.

[THUNDER HANDS]

88. dude, those women exist

I can attest to it now. I found one.

Trust me, they're out there. Keep looking.

:)

[tom_paine]

90. "Every women loves a Fascist...the boot in the face"

--Sylvia Plath, "The Bell Jar"

Now, I recognize Ms. Plath was generalizing, but I'm afraid my own personal experience indicates it's true.

Gotta call it like I see it (though I have no doubt there are numerous exceptions).

[CanuckAmok]

91. Gosh, I hope so. n/t

[demgurl]

92. I am sorry women have treated you that way.

When I was that age, I had a wonderful man in my life. He was my best friend. He was the sweetest most wonderful person you would ever want to meet. It came to a point where he wanted to go out with me, but I did not want to go out with him. Why? I had too much respect for him. I know this sounds silly, but I was going out on at least one date a night....if not more! I was out to have fun and just use guys to have a good time. My friend was jealous of all the guys and it ended up that we ended our relationship altogether. He ended up being so in love with me and I just wanted to see what was out there. I also did not want to ruin the friendship that we had.

I called him about 2 1/2 years later and he met me at a bar. He asked why I had called him after all that time. He had told me that he was now engaged and I asked if he really wanted to know. He said yes. I said I was ready to settle down and that I thought back to who, in my life, would be a truly awesome father and husband and the ONLY person I came up with was him. HE said how much he had missed me. We both agreed that we had such a strong and wonderful relationship. He said that his fiance had allowed him to go out with me this one time but had forbidden him to ever see or talk to me again! It seems she had seen the end results of how heart broken he was and she felt threatened by how strong his love had been for me. Never the less, he said he had missed me so much and even though it would just be platonic, he wanted to have a relationship with me again. He said it was too late for us since the invitations already went out! He did not say he did not love me. He did not say he was not interested.

Just so I do not ramble too much longer, here are the results. He stayed married for 6 years. I supported him even though he was miserable. He always said he kind of fell into proposing because it was expected of him! I had him buy her flowers. I had him go to therapy with her. I always supported their relationship despite the fact that I wanted him for myself. It was always platonic. I ended up married myself. He got divorced and so did I. (not because he got divorced) We have now been best friends (with a two or so year break) for 18 years. We are married and have two children. s

I knew how special he was and I did not want to play with him as I did the other men. I always respected him. He is so special. If I had been with him all those years ago, we both agreed we would not be together today. We both matured and we have such a solid foundation.

I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe women do respect you too much. There are people out there who will appreciate you. Your time will come. You are young right now. I assume you are in college? Take your time. Party a little and have fun. The rest will come. There are women out there who like nice guys. My husband is married to one.

Christina