If you belong to any Protestant church that acknowledges the Apostolic Succession,

[Hardrada]

especially the Church of England, and have converted to the Church of Rome, could you tell ne which reasons or circumstances were most influential?

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Probably. I don't see the two conditions as being mutually exclusive,

though I wouldn't really know until and unless I did such a thing.

Right now, it's a pretty theoretical question.

[Hardrada]

2. O good, I was hoping someone would reply to this!

:D

[Critters2]

77. Yeah, but he doesn't belong to any such church. So, I wouldn't pay any attention!

:)

[Rabrrrrrr]

112. I was only just answering the question that was actually asked. Notice, if you will,

that I am the *only* person in this thread to actually answer the question that was posed.

But, as an aside - a quirky little self-gratifying smug UCC sort of aside - I'd much rather be in a church that bases its authority in Jesus and scripture then in the pedigree of the hands that have touched its clergy.

:P

[Critters2]

113. As one of the aforementioned touched clergy, allow me to say

that is quirky, self-satisfying, and smug. :)

[JVS]

114. Well, I didn't answer the question because I have not converted to the Church of Rome, nor...

do I belong to a denomination that accepts apostolic succession. You can't say what the biggest thing driving your conversion to Catholicism was if you never converted.

[Rabrrrrrr]

115. Ah, but it wasn't asking for the reasons - it was only asking if one *could* tell those reasons.

Says the syntactical logical nazi in me...

:rofl:

I'm glad you see what I was saying, though. :thumbsup:

This is a good lesson in how most of the population doesn't really listen (or in this case, read) closely to what people are actually saying, but jump right in making assumptions about what the person said.

[rug]

3. The Edwardian Ordinal.

[Hardrada]

6. I might have to google that!

I think I have an Edwardian Book of Common Prayer around here somewhere (in reprint).

[motely36]

14. I found this page very informative on both

Apostolic Succession and the Edwardine Ordinal :hi:

[Hardrada]

15. Do you have a link?

[motely36]

19. oh my god....i am an idiot

:rofl:

Let me look in my history!

http://www.askthepriest.org/askthepriest/2007/11/holy-orders-and.html

here you go

[Hardrada]

21. Thanks! I'll check on that.

[NNadir]

117. I was raised as an Episcopalian and the primary effect of the theology I learned there

was to induce me to convert to atheism.

I feel a little guilty about that on some level, since I believe the modern Episcopal faith has admirable policies on women's rights and gay rights - something that is screamingly missing in Roman Catholicism.

The absymal policies of Catholicism on issues in women's rights, gay rights, scientific reason and issues like the environment - in particular regard to contraceptive rights - have convinced me the moral vacuity of Chritianity, which - it must be said - derives its continuity from the most part from Roman Catholicism.

It is absurd to think that a small minded man like Ratzinger has a special connection to the sources of ultimate truth about the universe.

Many members of my family when I was growing up converted to Catholicism. In 100% of the cases, the reason was marriage.

My father, originally a Methodist, converted to Episcopalianism because of my mother's insistance.

They were both bitterly disappointed by my atheism, but to their credit, never treated me with anything but love.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. I converted from one that didn't acknowledge the Apostolic Succession to one that did

but the Apostolic Succession was not a factor in my conversion.

I simply thought that the Lutherans were too suburban and not single-friendly. In addition, I thought they were taking their liturgy too much in the direction of bad pop music. So I became an Episcopalian, where pop music type services are permitted but are not the norm.

I have discovered that there are many like me among Minnesota Episcopalians.

[Hardrada]

5. Isn't there a kind of altar/pulpit fellowship among Lutherans

and Episcopals right now? I know they were were working on it although Gracia Grindal at the Luther Seminary disapproved. You are right about the bad pop "contemporary" services however. I like the old liturgies and my former choir director from my high school days entirely agrees with me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. I think there is, but I haven't encountered it

:shrug:

[SoxFan]

10. Only with the ELCA, I believe

I don't think the other Lutheran subdenominations have the thing you're referring to.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. i'm sure the Missouri and Wisconsin synods don't have it

They think the ELCA are a bunch of heretics, and they're not too crazy about each other.

[SoxFan]

27. Thanks for the info

I'm not up on my Lutheran family battles. It's tough enough dealing with the intramural fights in my own denomination, where the Mother Angelica Inquisition is busy trying to purge clergy who vote Democratic (i.e., about 95% of all priests and religious).

[Hardrada]

30. I have seen her on Channel 55. I would not want to have been

in her classroom!!

[Zuni]

59. man, she looks like she could break knuckles

with her rulers. At least she probably could 40 or 50 yrs ago. Nowadays she would probably break her own bones swinging a ruler.

[Hardrada]

29. They seem to be drifting away to an unreachable distance

from the ELCA. I thought maybe there was a shot at unity but then Jack Preus took over the LCMS. Incidentally, my aunt used to go on coffee dates with him back in 1939 but he was always pledged to Delpha Holleque.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

41. WELS and LCMS

are very closed churches. They have completely closed Eucharist, generally being a type of High Church fundamentalism. They hate all mainline denominations, evangelical churches, Catholics and pretty much anyone else who doesn't confess the Book of Concord as literally and completely true.

[Zuni]

60. they sound like the really ultra-traditionalist Catholics

the kind that can quote whole paragraphs from a Papal Encyclical written in 1734 while they are screaming about the evils of condoms and women wearing pants.

[JVS]

66. Actually I would say that the LCMS lines up very well with the mainstream Catholic Church, not the..

ultras.

The difference is that while the RCC loses some of its left wing to "lapsing" and some to conversion to Anglo Catholicism there is still a tendency among liberal Catholics to view it as the one true church and there remains some kind of hold on them. The LCMS has no such cachet and actually makes no claim to be the one true church and since throughout most parts of US ELCA and LCMS congregations operate so similarly, there is very little to keep the left wing of the LCMS in its pews. Especially because the ELCA's language concerning the Lutheran confessions is that they are adopted "insofar as they are true" (LCMS says "because they are true") and never spells out which ones are true and not, the conversion to ELCA would be very easy.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

68. From what I've seen,

that's pretty much how they are. Utterly closed off.

[JVS]

63. We don't hate the other denominations, we just don't agree with them and want little to do with them

If we had wanted to play nicey nice with Calvinists and other groups that didn't subscribe to the confessions, we would have stayed in Prussia and its occupied territories where we were forced to get along with the others.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

67. So you attend LCMS or WELS?

I want to try a Lutheran Church, but we have no ECLA here, only LCMS. I would be willing to give LCMS a shot as along as they keep politics out of the sermons.

[Critters2]

85. Yeah. About that. It was my ancestors who were in charge of all that

"forcing to get along" stuff. Sorry about that. I blame Schleiermacher myself.

[Critters2]

84. I don't think "hate" is accurate.

Btw, a very active Lounger is LCMS, and a good person all around. I've never seen him express "hate" toward anyone.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

121. Sorry, I didn't mean to broadbrush.

I was speaking from what I've seen of the denominations positions and what I know of the LCMS churches around here rather than individual members. I know there are many kind and decent Missouri Synod Lutherans.

I'm Catholic so I know what it is to be in a relatively closed church and get painted as a "hater", lol.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

72. ELCA, yes

others, I don't know

[Critters2]

79. The others would never even consider such a thing. It's just the ELCA. nt

[Critters2]

78. There is. Some in the ELCA don't like it specifically because of the

Apostolic Succession issue. Now, ELCA clergy have to be ordained in the succession, in order to be in full communion with the ECUSA. Before, some Lutheran clergy were (those ordained in the LCA, I think), others were not. I have a Lutheran colleague who gets quite animated about this!

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

92. were existing ones grandfathered in?

I have never heard of this being an issue

[Critters2]

93. I think so. An ELCA colleague in Iowa was furious that new ordinations

had to be proven to be in Apostolic Succession. Sometimes that meant they had to invite the local ECUSA bishop. This pastor's wife is also ELCA, but from a different pre-merger tradition. He is in Apostolic Succession, she isn't. But I don't think they did anything to resolve her status.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

98. okay, so now I am confused

because it seems to me, as a rank and file ELCA person, if it don't say anything about Apostolic Succession in the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed, nor in the Small Catechism, then how do we believe in it?

Oh, Pastor Chris is not going to like this question, I bet.

[CreekDog]

7. can we answer with a LOLcat?

:shrug:

ps-do you know who you are asking?

[JVS]

22. You can't answer this.

Even if you did convert (which I doubt you have), Apostolic Succession is not important to us.

[trof]

9. I'm much more concerned with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I maintain it's only one.
Unless it's a tango.
Then I think two could fit.

Some believe the number of angelic pinhead dancers is infinite.
Could be in the millions.
Or billions.
Or even brazillions.

I don't even know if there are that many angels.
Anybody got a head count?
I guess it's a moot question anyway.
Or something.
:-)

[Critters2]

80. It's 9.

Now we can talk about Apostolic Succession. :hi:

[Bucky]

11. Does belief in the Apostolic Succession *have* to be a metaphysical affirmation?

Or does it still count as "belief in the Apostolic Succession" if you just think it sounds like a cool idea?

[Hardrada]

16. No, it''s not metaphorical. It is historical and based on Church tradition.

[JVS]

23. There is a difference though.

From what I understand ELCA adoption of AS was done to please the ECUSA under the terms of the CCM. This is much more of a "Yeah, we'll plug into the historic episcopacy if that's what you need us to do." Most church bodies that have AS consider it to be a make or break issue involving the validity of the ordination. So I would say that there are some who promote it and others who simply abide by it in the ELCA-ECUSA CCM

[Hardrada]

24. It is not much discussed here.

Our local ELCA congregation instead has always stressed the Real Presence in the Eucharist. That seems to be have been an issue here at one time before we came to town.

[JVS]

25. Anyone with problems about the real presence should be excommunicated from a Lutheran congregation.

That is a basic

[Hardrada]

28. Yes, that's the position.

I don't know what caused this particular emphasis. My guess is the dissidents, if any, just crossed the alley to the UCC church a long time ago.

[kwassa]

12. Most conversions seem to go the other direction

Catholics who become Episcopals. All the pomp, and none of the guilt, as I was saying in another thread.

[motely36]

13. That's how it seems to be

I know lots of reformed catholics who are now happy episcopalians.

[Hardrada]

18. In the 1980's there were some disaffected Lutheran clergy

who went over to Catholicism for mostly political/ideological reasons, I think. But I have met some priests who became Lutheran or Episcopal ministers.

[SoxFan]

37. Catholics and Episcopalians both recognize apostolic succession

As do the Orthodox churches and the ethnic-based Old Catholic Churches.

[Hardrada]

70. Thanks. I wasn't sure of that.

[QMPMom]

120. But the Catholic church does not recognise or believe that

Episcopalians/Anglicans *have* Apostolic Succession. ....and they don't, in my opinion. That's all I'm going to say.

[Chan790]

17. Ceremony.

I liked the ritual of the Catholics better, it seemed magical to my 15 year old mind.

Of course now I'm a militant atheist humanist. I guess I don't like magic anymore.

[Hardrada]

20. I have a video of the Tridentine (Latin) Mass and it is

very ceremonial and mystical and the music is Renaissance polyphony. Of course the choral High Mass was not what every parish had to offer in that ers.

[Zuni]

49. The Tridentine Rite Mass is pretty rare nowadays

Most Churches do the modern Mass of Paul VI.

Both forms of the Mass have their pros and cons. The Latin Mass (Latin High Mass, that is. I have never been to a Latin Low Mass) is very exotic and beautiful and ancient. But, in the pews you do very little other than watch, listen, stand, kneel, genuflect, bow etc etc. Holy Communion is done at the Altar Rail, so one pew at a time goes up and kneels at the rail, and it takes a long time.

Most of the Mass, the Priest faces away from you. The Choir and the various deacons and sub-deacons and altar helpers do most of the responses.

If you do go to a Latin Mass Church, be prepared to kneel for a very long time.

this site has listings of many Churches that have Latin Mass in the US and Canada

http://web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm

note: If you attend, I recommend women to wear a head scarf. That is the common practice, at least from what I have seen. Men should wear a shirt and tie. It is pretty formal and old fashioned.

[SoxFan]

54. A lot of bishops aren't thrilled with the Tridentine Mass

Most of the bishops came of age during the Vatican II era, and aren't especially thrilled with a return to the pre-Vatican II isolation of the clergy from the congregation.

There is also the problem of internal church politics. The Tridentine Mass is usually advocated by hard-line theological conservatives. These characters are very noisy and create a lot of headaches that the church would prefer to do without, and sometimes the Tridentine only encourages them and lets them think that they have the upper hand on all matters.

[Zuni]

56. I can only imagine

I guess most Bishops throw them a bone by having a Church or two in the Diocese do a Latin Mass every Sunday.

Those hardcore anti-Vatican II Catholics are a strange bunch. You know the saying, when someone asks you something you would answer "yes" to, and you say "Is the Pope Catholic?" instead? Some of those Hardline, SSPX type Catholics would say "no" to the "is the Pope Catholic" question and mean it. They are a weird bunch.

[Zuni]

58. check these guys out

they elected a guy named Lucian Pulvermacher at a synod up in Montana as Pope Pius XIII.

They call themselves the "True Catholic Church".

http://www.truecatholic.us/

[SoxFan]

61. The sedevanticist fringe

These are the oddballs who think that the 1957 conclave was somehow rigged to cheat ultraconservative Giuseppe Cardinal Siri out of the papacy. Since they believe that every Pope from John XXIII onward is invalid, some bozo can throw on robes and declare himself Pope Rufus I.

[Critters2]

102. Pope Rufus I!

:spray:

[SoxFan]

124. A friend of mine is a Catholic priest in NC

We joke about him becoming Pope Bubba I.

[TrogL]

31. Are there any Protestant churches that do Apolstolic Succession?

Anglicans, Orthodox and Old Catholics aren't Protestant.

With the various schisms, I'm not sure where the Lutherans are.

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. Anglicans are most definitely 'Protestant'

[Celeborn Skywalker]

33. Many Anglicans

call themselves catholic or orthodox, just not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. I know one Episcopalian priest who says that the Church of England should never be historically associated with the Reformation.

[Heidi]

35. When I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church (US), I understood "catholic,"

as in the Nicene Creed, to mean "universal." The "c" isn't capitalized and it does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church. My understanding is that those anyone who already has been confirmed in a church in the Apostolic Succession (like an Eastern Orthodox church of the Roman Catholic Church) needs only to be "received" by the Episcopal Church in a ceremony during a visit by the bishop. Those who've not already been confirmed in a church in the Apostolic Succession normally would go through the whole confirmation process. This was my experience and how it was explained to me by the priest in our diosese. :hi:

From the Nicene Creed:
"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church..."

[Celeborn Skywalker]

38. Yes.

You are correct. Most confessional/creed-based churches (Anglicans, Lutherans, some Methodists and Presbyterians) do call themselves "catholic" with a small c.

It's just I've heard and read a lot where many Anglicans don't like the word "Protestant" being applied to their church. They consider the separation by King Henry more of one of papal authority as opposed to the Martin Luther objections over the teachings of the Roman Church.

[Zuni]

50. It depends if they

are High Church or Low Church Anglicans. High Church Anglicans are very similar to Catholics theologically and liturgically---many pray the Rosary, believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, follow a liturgical calender etc etc---and are often called Anglo-Catholics.

Low Church Anglicans are often more like Reformed or Congregational branches of Christianity, theologically and in practice.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

51. Which are more common?

My current area only has what I would call a High Church. My mom says Low Church Anglicanism is quite common in the South.

[Zuni]

53. I am not sure

I am Catholic. I have been inside on Episcopal Church in my area for funeral, and based on the Church building itself, I would guess it was probably a liturgical high Church congregation. Very ornate and old fashioned. Vaguely Catholic-like.

[TrogL]

122. We've got both here

We've even got one church that does High and Low services on alternate Sundays. I'm not sure what they do about months with 5 Sundays.

[Radical Activist]

34. I didn't know there were protestant churches

that believed in Apostolic Succession. It seems like a contradiction to believe it and be protestant. I'm more familiar with Lutherans and those who believe the authority to serve comes from the congregation.

[Heidi]

36. The Espicopal Church (US) believes in it and is a Protestant church,

though the priest in my Nebraska diocese sometimes jokingly referred to the Episcopalians as "Catholic Lite."

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/3577_13758_ENG_HTM.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_(United_States)

[SoxFan]

39. Theologically, the Anglican churches are pretty close to Catholicism

Anglicans are certainly closer to Catholics than they are to most Baptist, Pentecostal, and some of the Reformed denominations.

From a liturgical standpoint, Catholic and Anglican services are very similar. I've attended services at Anglican churches and it seemed familiar. When I've sttended services at a friend's Southern Baptist church (a relatively moderate one), it was a very weird experience.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

42. Same with most Lutherans.

The Liturgy is virtually the same but the theology is Protestant (only scripture, priesthood of all believers, faith only). Lutherans are the only Protestant denomination to believe in the Real Presence of Christ during Communion.

[Odin2005]

74. The services of mainline Protestant churches I've been to seem pretty similar to me.

When I went to the baptism for the kid of a friend of mine, which was at a Episcopalian church near my apartment, I was very surprised how similar it was to the services at my parent's Lutheran church.

[Critters2]

87. Mainline worship tends to be similar across denominational lines.

which is why, when I try to explain that Methodists believe nearly the opposite of what we in the Reformed tradition do about the means of grace, I get "No. I went to a Methodist church. They're just like us."

Why do we even bother preaching sermons?!

[JVS]

95. The best is when people start fighting within the denomination because of different worship styles.

I'm very flexible on this and although I prefer a traditional (i.e straight from the book) kind of worship, when I see ultra traditionalists railing against the contemporary services of other parishes I chime in with a reminder that what we call traditional was a major innovation over medieval times in which the mass was viewed much more than participated in by the laity.

[Critters2]

94. UCC theologians had to pay lip service to the Real Presence

in order to get the ELCA to enter into an ecumenical agreement with us, the PCUSA and the RCA. I was most irritated by this. Most UCC clergy don't believe in the real presence, and most UCC laity are Zwinglian (as am I). I thought it was downright dishonest to fudge on this issue.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

123. I didn't know that.

That is interesting. I also thought it was interesting how someone mentioned upthread that ELCA does a type of apostolic succession now that they are in communion with the Episcopals. The differences between the denominations seem to be fading away.

[Heidi]

43. I agree about the similarities in the services.

I was raised Southern Baptist and at one time was married to a man who was raised Church of God but attended an Assemblies of God church. The Southern Baptist church I grew up attending was pretty moderate, but the Southern Baptist, Church of God and Assemblies of God Sservices I've attended have all been the the hell, fire and brimstone sort -- far different than any Episcopal service I attended and probably what drew me to the Episcopal church in the first place.

[Hardrada]

73. I have been to every kind of Mass

because this part of Iowa is more Catholic and we know a lot of RC folk. I have never been to any kind of Baptist or Pentacostal service ever though some suburbs around here have those megachurches which don't seem (on TV) to have functioning liturgies.

[Critters2]

91. Where are you? The part of Iowa where I was (the last time)

was LUTHERAN. People never believed me when I said I have no Scandinavian blood at all. They just couldn't imagine such a thing. And I'm not even Lutheran.

[Critters2]

81. Actually, there are Episcopalians whose theology is Reformed.

The ECUSA is liturgical closer to Catholic, but runs the gamut theologically. Episcopalians will readily admit that what unites them is liturgy and tradition, not theology.

[JVS]

86. This was my HUGH problem with CCM when I was in the ELCA.

The ECUSA is too doctrinally diverse for such an agreement to have any kind of teeth. In the middle ground of the ECUSA there are a lot of people who are doctrinally fine with Lutheransim, but how can we remain true to the Augsburg Confession when we put ourselves in communion and thus claim to be in agreement with Reformed who deny what the sacrament is, and Anglo-Catholics who maintain a radically different view of how the sacrament functions.

[Radical Activist]

45. It's kind of odd to argue

that the Catholic Church doesn't have apostolic authority over the Anglican Church, but it did have sufficient apostolic authority to appoint the first Bishop of the Anglican Church. Either the authority is there in the RCC or it isn't. But Western Christianity is full of theological acrobatics so I won't worry about it.

[Heidi]

47. I don't worry about it at all. I'm no longer an Episcopalian.

But Apostolic Succession as it is understood in the US Episcopal Church is that the bishops are are the successors to the apostles and that's where their authority comes from. It does not come from the Roman Catholic Church.

Apostolic Succession

The belief that bishops are the successors to the apostles and that episcopal authority is derived from the apostles by an unbroken succession in the ministry. This authority is specifically derived through the laying on of hands for the ordination of bishops in lineal sequence from the apostles, through their performing the ministry of the apostles, and through their succession in episcopal sees traced back to the apostles. The apostolic succession is continued in the bishops of the Episcopal Church, who seek to "carry on the apostolic work of leading, supervising, and uniting the Church" (BCP, p. 510). The apostolic succession may also be understood as a continuity in doctrinal teaching from the time of the apostles to the present. The apostolic succession is said to be a "sign, though not a guarantee" of the church's basic continuity with the apostles and their time. The meaning of the apostolic succession relative to the historic episcopate has been a significant issue in Lutheran-Episcopal dialogues.
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/3577_13758_ENG_HTM.htm

[Radical Activist]

48. Who appointed the Bishops?

What I mean is that at some point when the Anglican Church started there was a Bishop who was appointed by the authority of the Pope (Although in practice I suppose it was done by the King of England?). So if the Pope's authority isn't valid then hasn't the line of succession been broken? How can one refuse to recognize the apostolic authority of the Pope and at the same time claim apostolic authority that came through the papacy?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. Like the rest of Western Europe, England was all Catholic until the Reformation

The apostolic succession (which I don't consider a particularly important doctrine) comes from the fact that some bishops made the switch and so were able to consecrate new ones.

After the Revolutionary War, bishops in England refused to consecrate bishops or ordain priests in or from the U.S., considering them traitors to the king, so a couple of would-be bishops went to Scotland to find someone who would consecrate them.

[Critters2]

88. The earliest bishops pre-date the Great Schism. So they were neither Catholic

nor Orthodox. And they certainly weren't Protestant.

[JVS]

89. Epicopalian claims to autonomy are much easier to justify when viewed in light of the Eastern Church

If one understands the idea of an Autocephalous Church like the Russian Orthodox Church or even the recently created Orthodox Church in American, one can understand how Episcopalians can justify AS with independence from Rome.

[Critters2]

90. Oh, yeah. That would help their argument. nt

[JVS]

96. IIRC correctly their argument is that Britain was Christianized for several centuries before Rome...

claimed authority over all the West. Such a thing could have arisen in the Lutheran area too if Adalbert of Bremen had been successful in his attempt to create a patriarchate around Northern Germany and the newly Christianized/Converting lands of Scandinavia in the 10th century. It didn't work out, then the schism which had been developing between East and West solidified and that boat had sailed

[Critters2]

97. The Council of Whitby, around 800 CE, I think, settled the issue

of Roman authority over the church in England and Scotland. Before that, it was pretty much autonomous.

[Zuni]

110. The Catholic Church

does recognize the validity of Holy Orders and Apostolic Succession in Eastern Orthodoxy, but not in Anglicanism.

I wonder if it has something to do with the manner of the schism---ie, Henry VIII causing it because the Pope would not annul his marriage. Or it might be because during the Anglican Reformation, the Anglican Church adopted a "via media" approach between Catholicism and Protestantism and the official theology of the English Church changed somewhat

[Hardrada]

105. And the Queen of England is still the Head of the Anglican Church, I believe.

I don't think they've changed that so far. Defensor fidei and all that.

[Critters2]

99. Augustine of Canterbury was consecrated a bishop in 597.

The Great Schism took place in 1054. When Augustine was consecrated, the primacy of the pope was not established doctrine and the Roman and Eastern Churches had not split. So, no, he was not appointed by the authority of Rome. He was consecrated by authority of a united Church. Anglican bishops claim Apostolic Succession through Augustine.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. Okay, I stand corrected, but

the essential principle, that the Anglicans are in apostolic succession because the same bishops made the transition from Roman Catholic to Church of England in the 16th century still holds. (Because of scheduling problems, I dropped out of EFM before we got to church history.)

[Celeborn Skywalker]

40. Anglicans do.

If you consider them "Protestant" which, imho, they really aren't.

[Radical Activist]

46. And Mormons

but they definitely aren't protestant.

[SoxFan]

52. Mormons don't recognize the doctrine of apostolic succession

At least not in the sense of the term relevant to this discussion.

Apostolic succession is a concept recognized by the Catholic church (Roman and Eastern Rite), the Orthodox churches, including Copts, the Anglican/Episcopal churches, and some Lutheran denominations.

[Radical Activist]

62. Sure they do.

They just think the line of succession was corrupted and then re-established by angelic visits of the apostles themselves.

[tigereye]

44. when I was raised Roman Catholic, we seldom referred to it as "the Church

of Rome." :rofl: I have to say though, that all those "not-so- old" schisms and divisions are quite fascinating.


I have a friend who was raised RC and ended up a Episcopal minister. Can't think of too many folks who started as Protestants/Episcopals, etc. and ended as RC. It's been wild to read about issues with the Episcopal Church? in the paper, and all the in-fighting regarding liberal and conservative viewpoints. It's almost like watching the Middle Ages continuing to function. A lot of RC churches seem to have regressed back to pre-Vatican II thinking, from what I can see, and the elevation of the current and previous Pope, who were/are steeped in medieval heirarchical dogma seem ludicrously anachronistic.

[SoxFan]

55. This is remarkable

A religion thread that is civil, informative, and free from name-calling.

Well done, everyone!

:toast: :fistbump: :yourock:

[Zuni]

57. I agree

:thumbsup:

This is an interesting topic, and being a Catholic who attends Mass regularly, I like to be able to discuss religious issues with other Church goers.

[JVS]

64. I see a bit of LCMS bashing, but I'm not too surprised by it.

[Zuni]

65. you are lucky most DUers don't even know what the LCMS is

it isn't as big a target as the Catholic Church around these parts.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

69. I would say the same of the Catholic Church

and I'm Catholic, lol. I'm not bashing LCMS members, just saying that the Missouri Synod is a conservative denomination with closed communion.

Eastern Orthodoxy is about as conservative as one can get, and I'm thinking of converting so I have no problem with members of more conservative churches.

[Odin2005]

76. I grew up going to a ELCA congegation and my mom always told me that...

Missouri Synod = Fundy Nutjobs. :shrug:

[Critters2]

82. That's not really true. The term "fundamentalist" has specific meanings.

The LCMS doesn't really qualify.

[Hardrada]

71. Thank you all for answering questions and contributing to the

discussion. I was a Lutheran seminarian once and miss talking about these topics. And I too appreciate the thoughtful and civil tone.

[Critters2]

83. Where'd you go to seminary?

Me: Andover Newton.

[Hardrada]

100. Luther Theological Seminary in St. Paul

[Critters2]

101. I have a friend who went there. My brother went to United, and another friend

went to Bethel. The Twin Cities seems like a great place for theological study.

[Hardrada]

107. There was also an RC seminary. I recall having a few beers

with some of the Catholic seminarians in honor of the ecumenical spirit of that time! And there is today a great repository of theological works in Stillwater at Loome Theological Books. I buy various volumes of medieval ecclesiastical history there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. So are you still in Minnesota?

If so, you're welcome to our Saturday gathering. See the Minnesota Forum for details.

[Hardrada]

106. Thank you for the invitation. Alas, I am down in Serene Eastern Iowa

but half of my family is scattered in and around MPLS/St.Paul and my sister lives near Macalaster College. So I do get up there as much as I can. I will check the MN Forum nonetheless.

[hunter]

108. If our Catholic church didn't lean left I don't know what I'd do.

My parents used to live in right-wing-wacko-world and it was actually painful to attend Mass there. There is no way I could've done it week after week after week. Our kids probably wouldn't have made it past Baptism.

As God is my Witness I never heard Christ talking about abortions and supporting the troops and the Second Vatican Council and the commie-socialist-liberal-democrat-atheist-gay-agenda as much as those people did. Hello, hello? Maybe if you are a right wing nationalistic war-mongering America love-it-or-leave-it patriot, maybe you want to find another church? My church had the anti-war banners up days before *bush invaded Iraq, and they see undocumented workers and homeless people as brothers and sisters too.

I don't know... If I'm gonna be a Christian I might as well be old school.

[Hardrada]

109. Though I'm Lutheran, I have made donations to the Catholic Worker

houses since I have so admired progressive Catholics like Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day.

[Zuni]

111. the St. Vincent DePaul society is also good

they do a lot of work around here and help a lot of people.

[Hardrada]

119. I haven't donated to them per se but do buy second hand books

and DVD's from them on occasion since they sometimes get some interesting stuff.

[mwooldri]

116. I think this would be a question put to Tony Blair.

He defected...

(Yep, I'm C of E)...

In his case, and I'm purely guessing because I don't know the guy and I haven't met him... his wife's RC, his children have been brought up RC, he attended RC services, he felt at home in that church community. He wanted to be an official paid up member, so he converted.

My choice of church... well, I consider myself a long way away from my home church. My home church is a good mix of high and low Anglican church, one week you got full choir communion sung using 1662 Book of Common Prayer, the next week you got keyboards and guitars and following Common Worship instead. The third week you got something in the middle. I do miss St Nicolas in Cranleigh.

I just haven't found the right church community around here in Greensboro... the Episcopal churches here have been too middle of the road... I've tried them but it just doesn't fit right. The one church I felt I fit into I have theological differences about, to the extent that whilst they are absolutely great, fantastic folk who are mostly Christlike, but the theology of the church just doesn't jive with me (too politically right wing for me).

I guess it is for most people who convert from one church to the other not necessary the theology that is the main driving factor, it's the people in the individual church community that does it.

[Hardrada]

118. Excellent point! I should have thought of Tony Blair since he is

probably the most noted C of E crossover to Rome since John Henry Cardinal Newman! I doubt if any of the royals have converted unless, of course, they married a Bourbon or a Hapsburg.