The problem with women.

[undeterred]

I'm a woman. I just found out there's a problem with single women.

I'm on a one week contract assignment working with four tech guys I've never met before and I'll never see again after this week. Its mostly unpacking and setting up computers so we can talk the whole time. So the one guy tells us he was married but his wife died. By suicide. Then his girlfriend after that turned out to be psychotic. He actually seems like a nice guy and the other men are really sympathetic. He turns to me and says, "You don't know how bad it is- I can understand why men go to other countries to find wives".

Then he tells us what a negative reaction he gets when he tells women that he is a computer professional. But if he tells them he just got out of jail for cocaine posession they think he's great. If he's nice to a woman, he never "gets lucky". If he's a total asshole, they can't get enough of him.

All the men agree. When I leave they are talking about arranged marriages in other countries and how happy those people are.

:shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. Hold on...

:popcorn:

Okay, go.

[bicentennial_baby]

2. Scooch over, d00d...

:popcorn:

And I'll bring the

[Starbucks Anarchist]

5. I wanted Kool-Aid!

You're no Obama supporter. :cry:

[bicentennial_baby]

7. Here you go:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

8. ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy00KL_4ZKk

[JVS]

83. One more on the couch.

[Pacifist Patriot]

122. LOL!

[Connonym]

3. ...

sounds to me like they're looking for women in the wrong places or have unrealistic expectations about the kinds of women they're looking for. Because that's just crazy talk. All my female friends, who are smart, vivacious and funny but perhaps don't all look like super models, think the "dorky" computer guys are highly desirable.

[undeterred]

14. I didn't say that to him, but since I am a computer person

my reaction is pretty positive too. I have a feeling he is looking at women who are immature and who are into their looks and looking for a "bad boy" type. They're going to be superficial.

[Lorien]

24. I'll bet dollars to donuts that these guys are ONLY looking for "supermodel"

type women-and usually those women never had to behave in ven a civil fashion to attract, and often keep, a guy around. Every single woman I know (myself included) would LOVE to find a nice tech guy. If someone told me that they had just gotten out of prison I wouldn't be able to get away fast enough!

[undeterred]

33. Probably.

The other thing- the guy chews tobacco. This really limits a man's choice of women, much more than smoking. Quite simply, its disgusting.

[Lorien]

37. Ewwwww!

OK, I don't know of ANY woman except the "white trash" sort who would find that acceptable...and they DO prefer bad boy prison inmates!

[RadiationTherapy]

61. This is correct, sometimes

But to give you more fodder for future discussions, I also have found that men (and women) who whine like this actually have NO stories to tell. They haven't traveled. They haven't challenged themselves. They haven't seen a lot of life. Many went from high school to college to grad school to a job. No road trips. No drug stories. No peace corps. They are their own worst PR enemy!

Some do want to "Score outside of their league", but I know plenty of "nice guys" who just have nothing interesting to offer a potential partner; supermodel or no.

[Lorien]

103. You're right, and I've met a few of those

I had a nice guy-a scientist- pursue me for a while. He was OK looking and his politics were in line with mine (we met at a Democratic convention) but he had only ONE true passion in life: Ultimate frisbee. He really didn't know that much about current events or any science topics outside of the very narrow realm of his own field. He had never traveled, and had no interest in it. He sent me video after video of himself playing ultimate frisbee, ultimate frisbee sites, the ultimate frisbee championships...He obviously needed to find a woman who was just as obsessed with his favorite sport as he was, otherwise there simply wouldn't be much in the way of conversation.


(edit: typo)

[RadiationTherapy]

105. Or he could have let it go and found something a bit broader.

I am not a big proponent of the "don't change for anyone" crowd. When I was young and lonely, there were a few things I "loved" that I, eventually, let go of because I knew were just tacky when it comes to finding a partner. My most significant "accomplishments"(debatable by some) in life came as result of being willing to let go and find new experience.

Naturally, there are some aspects of life that are mostly non-negotiable.

[Iris]

136. I'd bet they are finding women who don't look like supermodels but DO have all sorts of emotional

baggage.

Really, people are usually drawn to something in the psychic make-up of a person just as much as the physical.

[Pale Blue Dot]

4. Wow. You have completely misread the fact that this guy was trying to get into your pants.

I hope, for your sake, he wasn't successful.

[supernova]

6. I hope you're joking..

unless this is yet another tactic I was completely unaware of. (highly possible)

[quip]

10. We could tell you, but then we'd have to

schtup you. :shrug:

[supernova]

13. I know you think you're being funny

but I'm in a bad mood right now.

See further down the lounge page for my post.

:-(

[quip]

25. Oh, poop. Don't mind me and my silly asshat!

:dunce:

[Pale Blue Dot]

12. I'm not joking.

I'm not saying that the guy's lying, per se, but you don't say all of that stuff to a woman you've just met unless you are trying to get a little pity....

[supernova]

20. No, that's not something I'd ever pick up on

especially because it is in the workplace. Huge red flag for me and cut off of all things emotional/sexual for those hours.

But I'm the queen of missed cues, so what do I know?

:shrug:

[Pale Blue Dot]

23. The fact that it's the workplace is, IMO, the biggest clue.

This is NOT a conversation that a man would normally strike up with a woman he barely knows. ESPECIALLY if he's her supervisor.

I'm inclined to believe that this guy may be a total scumbag. I could be very wrong, of course, but I would advice the OP not to trust this man and certainly NOT to form her opinion of women based on what he says.

[undeterred]

26. Having one's first wife commit suicide is a bad reference.

[supernova]

27. Did he drive her to it?

That would be my cynical brain at work.

;-)

[undeterred]

30. My cynical brain goes there too.

Of course, when you tell someone that your spouse committed suicide you get sympathy. But people do not ask you a bunch of questions.

[supernova]

38. That's called oversharing

with people you just met.

:crazy:

[yardwork]

97. I was thinking the same thing.

Many red flags here.

[bamacrat]

90. Someone's cynical.

I lucked up and got a relatively sane smart good girl, but some I've dated and many I know are crazy. I know guys can be crazy too but, I dated a girl that slashed her ex-boyfriend of three weeks tires, he just broke up with her, thats all. She was crazy, a little slutty too but in a good way. I know I live in the Meca of stuck up mean ass dumb bitches, Tuscaloosa Alabama. Seriously easily 90% of the girls are mostly concerned with how much money a guy (his dad)has, or what closeted fraternity he belongs to. But now that I write this girls/women are much cooler and better everywhere else, nah I've got female friends who agree that at the very minimum half of all girls are somewhat crazy.

[Pale Blue Dot]

95. You sound like a catch.

Those crazy, slutty girls don't know what they're missing.

[SarahB]

110. .

What about the smart, sane, slutty girls? :cry:

[undeterred]

9. No, I don't think so.

For the week he is my supervisor. The whole conversation was quite depressing. Its like men what submissive foreign wives that they can pay for and expect to act a certain way.

[Pale Blue Dot]

15. I still think you're a little naive.

The fact that he's your supervisor and he's saying these things has me doubly convinced.

[undeterred]

19. Wow, its like we're from different galaxies.

I thought sure he was going to ask me to research mail order bride websites for him.

[bicentennial_baby]

21. Seconded

Yep.

[Chan790]

18. Not me.

I like my women strong-willed, whip-smart, and devastatingly funny. I need an equal; someone to give it as well as I dish it out.

I have to say I'm hung up on looks. (I have strange taste though.) I think anybody who is honest admits that attraction is important. Your partner has to be attractive to you.

[MonkeyFunk]

11. so did ya do him?

[undeterred]

16. No, he was way too nice.

:shrug:

[ismnotwasm]

17. Oh oh

A Why do good girls like bad boys thread

:popcorn:

'Course I'm a (formally)Very Bad woman, who married a Very Good man. Go figure.





Did he really say "get lucky?"

[undeterred]

22. Yes.

Right before he said it he hesitated because I was in the room, and I said- just don't say anything crude about women. I don't know why I just make judgment on this. But as soon as he came out with the complaint about not "getting lucky" unless he was a total asshole there was universal male agreement. I have no idea why men say shit like this. Women won't have sex with men when they are nice and they will have sex with men when they are mean and nasty.

Where do they find such women? On an inpatient psych unit?

[RadiationTherapy]

63. It is a misperception.

"nice" actually means boring; "asshole" actually means interesting. Basic human nature, I think. I wasn't going to be with some boring "nice" girl.

[Scout]

54. maybe that's his problem? it's not luck, it's skill? n/t

[musette_sf]

28. two words:

Hans Reiser.

[Shakespeare]

29. EEEEK!!

Don't know how many people outside the bay area will get that reference, but :scared:

[Chan790]

31. I didn't at first...

so I wikipediaed it. I did hear something about this. Avoid the Wikipedia entry, it's loaded down with conspiracy theories.

[Shakespeare]

34. The SF Chronicle has been doing steady coverage of the trial.

That's probably the best source of info.

[undeterred]

32. This guy?

Hans Reiser: Once a Linux Visionary, Now Accused of Murder

[Shakespeare]

35. yep n/t

[Chan790]

36. That's the one.

supposedly killed his mail-order-bride Russian OB/GYN wife of 5 years. Whether he did or didn't (a jury will decide that), he's creepy as hell.

edit: They were married 5 years, not 10.

[supernova]

39. Creepy, but this made me laugh

from that article:

As a technology writer, I frequently meet people like this. Just because he doesn't behave like the rest of us — and just because he evaded police surveillance and bought a book titled Masterpieces of Murder shortly after his wife's disappearance — doesn't mean he's guilty.


Wierd.

Why? If you're not getting along, why not just separate? Why kill the person?

[Gormy Cuss]

41. Oh snap!

The coverage of that trial is like a cheap crime serial.

[NJmaverick]

40. The guys been married, has had a serious girl friend after his

first wife killed herself.... Doesn't sound like this guy has much of a problem getting women to go out with him. Sort of makes the rest of his point moot.

[JVS]

93. I think the problem is that he's a magnet for crazies.

It's just like when women say "All the good ones are taken or gay"

[Ellen Forradalom]

42. they need to stop getting dates off craigslist

And they need to stop thinking of "women" as a different, subhuman species and evaluate each as an individual--as a friend first and foremost.

[Darth_Kitten]

43. Maybe these guys attitudes are turning good women away..........

sounds like they want a glorified maid, not a wife or girlfriend.

[DarkTirade]

45. Exactly.

In my experience, most of the guys who complain about how 'nice guys can't get girls' are only being nice because they WANT something and they think that being nice will get it for them.

There are the rare exceptions of course. But in the end, the thing that usually 'gets the girl' so to speak isn't whether someone's nice or not. That has very little bearing on innate attraction. What gets people attracted to each other is usually confidence. People who are willing to do stupid things show they have it. People who are afraid to do anything for fear of offending don't.

[zanne]

44. "She went nuts!"

The prefered reason nine out of ten men use to explain why their girlfriends left them! :rofl:

[DarkTirade]

59. In my case, that was the reason I left my last one...

I put up with the nuts-ness for a while because... errr... yeah. Can't go into details here without getting the thread locked. But I put up with her crazyness for much longer than I should have. :P

[MissMillie]

46. "getting some"....

Some women like to get to know someone before jumping into bed. These women are likely to be the ones who will stick around when he says he's a computer professional. But because they don't jump into the sack, I guess he figures it's not worth his time.

So yeah, he's going to "get some" with the women who think it's cool he just got out of prison.

But that won't be the woman he wants to bring home to mother.

I guess the question this guy needs to ask himself is whether or not he can be happy with a lot of meaningless sexual encounters w/ women he could care less about, or whether he's willing to put some effort and patience into a relationship w/ someone who could turn out to be a real partner.

For the record, I'd absolutely date a computer professional, much more quickly than a guy released from prison.

But I'm not going to bed with anyone within a week of knowing them. Probably not even within a month of knowing them.

I don't particularly care that some people are ok with quick casual sex. It's just not for me.

I'm worth getting to know. If they don't think so, that's their loss. They can go bitch and moan and call for the foreign bride catalogue.

[undeterred]

48. Or maybe he needs one of those inflatable dolls that makes noise

at the appropriate moments but never talks at all otherwise. They never say no to sex. And he can get a whole case of them so he doesn't get "bored".

[JoDog]

47. They are looking for the wrong women

It seems to me that they are looking for love in all the wrong places. Yes, if they go for the girls with model looks, they will probably encounter the vapid, shallow and idotic. Why not give their fellow geek girls some love?

Personally, I have dated computer tech guys. I only sleep with "nice guys". The one "bad boy" I dated was left with blue balls. I try not to do anything to a guy that I would not want done to me, or that I would consider disrespectful. But a lot of guys may overlook me. I'm only 5'5", probably could loose a few pounds, and would classify my looks as "girl next door cute" or "busty librarian" rather than "gorgeous". I wear glasses because I hate the idea of contacts. I can discuss the great works of literature, the search for the Higgs Boson, and have a theory on who the final Cylon is on "Battlestar Galactica". But I end up hanging out with friends on a Saturday night more often than going out on a date.

I would also like to point out that not all the people in arranged marriages are happy. They have to try to make it work or accept them because divorce is not readily available in those countries, or at least not readily available to women. And just because that mail-order bride is submissive when she arrives, that doesn't mean she's going to stay that way (see the end of the movie "Heaven and Earth").

[undeterred]

49. I would think that a lot of women in arranged marriages

are miserable from day one.

[PassingFair]

50. I think one of the attractions of the "mail order bride", aside from the...

young (supposedly) submissive wife, is that there
is no COURTSHIP. It's like a done-deal, and the
dorks don't have to fear rejection.

They are "buying" not wooing.

[JoDog]

52. Good point

The man isn't risking anything emotionally. He is making a financial investment, not an emotional one. For so many people it is easier to spend money they may not be able to afford or earn back, then to spend emotion, which is a renewable resource.

[AngryAmish]

121. Arranged marriages have about the highest satisfaction rate, lowest divorce rate

I don't feel like looking up the stats but they are counter-intuitive until you realize the cultural differences.

In the USA most of the arranged marriages are Islamic folks and folks from the Indian subcontinent. Culturally, they do not have the same notions of romantic love as Americans. (In fact the idea of romantic love is a relatively new phenomenon in Western cultures also). So if what you want out of marriages is to be provided for, have children, clean the house and cook then an arranged marriage can do that very well.

My father-in-law is Pakistani. There were relatives from Pakistan sniffing about trying to determine the eligibility of my wife for their sons. To them it seemed perfectly natural but it would not have worked out for obvious (if you know my wife) reasons.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

130. Right, you should concentrate on people who are in your own league

If you're seriously nerdy, then you should seek out other nerds.

If you're athletic and outdoorsy, you should seek out other athletic and outdoorsy people.

If you're looking for a lasting relationship, shared interests and values are a necessary addition to any perceived "hotness."

[raccoon]

51. It sounds like you're in a hostile work environment, and these men sound like assholes,

and sexist pigs, and those are their good qualities. Men like this make me want to run to the nearest convent, and I'm not Catholic.

Document this stuff. It may get worse.

[undeterred]

53. Its only for a week.

This morning I worked with just one of the guys and he brought his headset. No talking, we got a lot of work done.

[regularguy]

55. Maybe the title should be

The problem with (some) Men. There are fantistic women everywhere. Dude needs to understand that it takes some work, and they're not psychotic just because they have expectations and don't do whatever you say. Unfortunately, I think I too "understand" why some men go to other countries to find wives.

[billyskank]

56. To be fair, not everyone with an arranged marriage is happy

But I do take your point, and it's not even about forcing marriage. In places like India, people typically get together because their two families suggest it, sometimes people get coerced but that isn't always the case. What's striking is, the success rate of such marriages is not worse than ours in the west.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. Self-proclaimed "nice guys" rarely are,

"Nice guys" aren't really nice. They're boring (in the sense that they have no interests outside their work and sports) and they don't want an equal partner. They want a housekeeper who will flatter them and tell them how wonderful they are, never make any demands, and provide hot sex at night.

They think that all they have to do to win a woman's heart is open doors for her and give her flowers. They more or less ignore women unless they're trying to get into their pants. Then they put on the "nice" act.

If you've ever participated in online dating, you'll know that there's always a guy or two who comes on (before he's even met you) with, "Oh, you're so beautiful. You're the woman of my dreams. Let's meet, and when I see you I'll bring you a dozen roses." (I'm not making this up.)

Naturally, any woman who's ever had an experience with a stalker immediately freaks and says no. Then the clueless guy fumes about how "women don't like nice guys."

Being afraid of women who are their equals (and clueless in general, since they only talk among themselves about "how women don't like 'nice guys,') these "nice guys" chase after empty-headed ditzes. However, the ditzes are usually emotionally immature and still awed by "bad boys."

The reason that the clueless self-described "nice guys" have better luck going overseas is that the women in the Philippines or Russia are economically desperate. They'll do anything to get out of their countries, even act as a housekeeper with benefits.

This topic has come up A LOT in the Lounge, at least several times a year, usually a guy whining and moaning about how "women (implication: all women) don't like nice guys."

Each time, I have challenged these pathetic self-pitiers to go to a platonic female friend and ask for a frank evaluation of himself.

Not one of them has taken me up on it as far as I can tell. The reason: I'm sure they know deep down that the woman will tell them that they're boring and self-centered.

Really "nice guys" are nice all the time, even to people they don't have any chance of getting into bed with. If I don't know a man well, it impresses me more when he helps a frail, elderly person up the steps or volunteers at a food shelf than if he comes on too strong with flowers and candy at first meeting.

[Karenina]

58. Another LL SLAM DUNK!!

:loveya:

[DarkTirade]

60. Exactly.

Spot on.

Being nice in the hopes of getting something in return isn't being nice. It's trying to trade one thing for another.

Which implies that those who are nice in the hopes of getting a girl are basically trying to treat said girl as a commodity.

Which, in my mind, makes those guys complete assholes. :P

[billyskank]

62. I consider myself a nice guy.

Most women don't look twice at me.

Make of it what you will.

[Ellen Forradalom]

67. Do you want most women?

Or one that's right for you?

[DarkTirade]

91. Are you nice in general, or do you try to use niceness to get things from people? :P

'Cause from what I've seen of you, I'd guess you're in the first category, not the second.

[IronLionZion]

108. Do most women look twice at anybody?

My women friends have told me that they don't go around looking for a date ever. The men are supposed to approach the women. It obviously doesn't help that they and their female friends might laugh contemptuously at some poor schmuck rather than politely declining. But still they are very adamant about separate male and female roles in looking for dates. Some of the most militant feminists will still be very traditional when it comes to this.

Sure it's difficult and intimidating. You have to risk rejection and humiliation and ruined friendships or whatever. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it and it wouldn't seem so special. :P

The women who make this very difficult and want you to jump through hoops right from the start are NEVER worth it and will NEVER respect you. Some women are cruel but there are nice ones out there. I managed to find one so anyone can.

Best of luck to you.

[RadiationTherapy]

127. Why wait for "looks"?

What does that even mean? Be a storyteller and involve your audience!

[IronLionZion]

64. Wow Lydia, that was a great post

That sounds like something my Minnesotan girlfriend would say. There's certainly nothing appealing about whiners.

A DUer shared this link with me about nice guy rants that I found very interesting.
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

[RadiationTherapy]

128. I was SO almost that blonde guy!

Luckily, during my worst disillusionment, there were no women around! Just me and my misogynist brother!!

[Ellen Forradalom]

66. EXACTLY

My thought exactly.

[Inchworm]

69. Your response is bullshit

I tried to stay out of this thread.

Nice is nice, wtf?

To consume your thoughts with potentials, what you wants, what family wants for you, and, as I noticed downthread, arranged marriages -- is freakin ludikers(sp).

The thing with women are that they are human. They want. It aint bad to want. If you think everyone is out to get you, how the hell are you to be healthy? People are farkin nuts.

Strive for love. It is a beautiful thing.

I want to be me. Screw all others.

You?

:banghead:

PS: hit a nerve sorry.

[BarenakedLady]

70. I think you misread it inchy

imo

[Inchworm]

71. I read it as

nice guys are to be scared of.

nice guys are potential trouble.

I just found that as nuts.

I may have read it wrong, I read slow :)

:hi:

[BarenakedLady]

72. I think the point was

"nice guys" are often looking for something else. I guess I'm just worn down and weary. I've lost support over the years from male friends who bolted once they realized I wasn't going to end up sleeping with them. I guess I've become a cynic.

[Inchworm]

73. coming from a woman (heterosexually)

that hurts me

Nice guys are nice.

I worry about this all with my daughter and have for years. It is all about you.. you you. They are extra ..extra.. extrs.

I guess that can be seen as bad parenting but it helped my daughter cull out the losers.

I want my daughter to be master of her ship. In order for her to do this she has to run aground. Those aint nice guys.

I'd never tell her "he aint the one for you."

shhh.. Inchworm hehe

..wow, I have no smily to end this :P

[BarenakedLady]

74. "nice guys" and guys that are nice

are different entities. It's all in the quotes.

I do have male friends whom I trust, who may or may not want to get in mah pants. But our friendship isn't contingent upon that fact. That is different. Look at that cartoon up a few posts...those are the "nice guys" I'm talking about.

[Inchworm]

75. ahhh

I got threw off by "western" sucking. I just think it is a case of dumbassedness.

I'm a nice guy. I am also a dick. I wouldnt expect any less from the one I love :P

Plus, what good is bullshit? Open and honest always wins.

:)

PS: I have been without my Dove for a few days and I'm touchy lol

[Chan790]

76. Ouch.

I think you just hit 35% of the self-describing "nice guys" I know. Bullseye. (Those guys aren't nice and nobody thinks they are.)

The problem is the other 65% aren't that guy...at all. They tend to be sweet, plain, safe guys. They are clueless, innocents, guileless. Okay, they might be boring. Or so painfully shy that you'd never know they dig you. Nobody notices them romantically. They show up with flowers because that's what they think they're supposed to do. They actually are as nice as they say they are. Nice is what you do when nobody is looking because it's the right thing. But there is the rub, nobody is looking. And yes, they're convinced that women don't like nice guys. What gave them that idea?

You did. You just lumped them in with the assholes, stalkers, and manipulators. "Rarely" is the petard you've hoisted yourself by. A fallacy of grand substitution, generalizing at its' best. The memorably experienced few, therefore all. Your cynicism is sexist. There is a lot of sexism in all directions in this thread, but yours is among the worst.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. They may be innocent and guileless, but instead of trying to figure out

what they're doing wrong, they just sit around and complain with other clueless guys. And keep throwing themselves after the very women who are guaranteed not to like them.

You'd think that after being shot down repeatedly using this approach, they'd think, "Maybe I'm doing something wrong."

But no, they just sit around and complain among themselves that "women (all women) want bad boys."

I've been on this site since 2001, and each time the topic comes up, I have challenged the whiners to go ask a female friend what they're doing wrong. No heterosexual person of your own sex can tell you how you look to a heterosexual person of the opposite sex.

As far as I know, none of them have taken me up on the challenge to ask a female friend for advice.

I would give the same advice to any woman who sat around complaining that "men only want hot babes" or "men only go for psychotic heartbreakers."

And please re-read the distinction between "nice guys" and "guys who are genuinely nice." If you look around, you will see non-creeps who have to fight women off with a stick. Not all of them are handsome. In fact, most of them are not. But they're genuinely kind, treat women as equal human beings with brains, and have something interesting to say.

[Chan790]

88. This I can agree with (for the most part)

The last thing you want them doing is thinking "Maybe I'm doing something wrong." though.

People tend to self-correct by emulating success...or at least what they perceive as success. In this case, that means buying a motorcycle, robbing a gas station, shooting a man in Reno just to watch him die (I'm obviously being hyperbolic and sarcastic.) and not changing their approach. Worse, sometimes they become the other 35%.

I've asked platonic female friends for input before (not because you or anybody has advised me to, but because it's a good idea), it's not always effective. A person who isn't attracted to you can no better tell you how to become attractive than your guy friends can because quite often they don't actually know why they aren't attracted to you (though they think they do).

P.S. I'm sorry I called you sexist. I think this dialogue is becoming fruitful. I'm touchy because I hear it all day long at work in my all-female-staffed store where it usually means "I'm getting attention from the guys I don't want, none from the guys I do." It seems the cause and reasons may be the same.

I guess we're all a little bit too cynical and self-deluding.

[Missy Vixen]

146. I see it from the other side

>think you just hit 35% of the self-describing "nice guys" I know. Bullseye. (Those guys aren't nice and nobody thinks they are.)<

I'm a female. I'm not a fashion model and could have been thinner, but I had many other qualities that made up for the fact I wasn't the most gorgeous woman in town. At the same time, I saw it over and over and over and over when I was single: Guys went for the bitchy, the nasty, the woman who was guaranteed to put their heart in a blender and hit "frappe," then he'd cry to me about how she didn't love him.

It was astonishing how many guys came out of the woodwork the second we announced our engagement.

Julie

p.s. My husband is a project manager for a software company, but when we got married, he was a network admin. Geeks rule.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

148. I noticed that as early as college

The nasty, manipulative, ill-tempered women never spent Saturday night making popcorn in the dorm lounge. In fact, we had only two phones on the whole floor (for 36 students), and the three noticeably nasty, etc. women got at least half the phone calls.

We knew they were nasty because they'd come home from their dates and tell what they'd done.

I've seen this again and again over the years. My theory is that naive men mistake the underlying anger and hatred of these women for sexual passion.

[Missy Vixen]

149. Lydia Leftcoast, you're speaking the truth

Guys are just as much into "bad girls" as they say women are into "bad boys".

It's always surprising to me...

Julie

[5LeavesLeft]

77. I used to be a "nice guy"

and I still am. But before when I was a "nice guy" I had zero self-confidence. All the while I was hitting on a hottie I was thinking to myself "why would a girl like that want to go out with you, you fraud". I was a Groucho Marxist when it came to women. All my friends kept telling me what a catch I was -- decent looking, smart, got a stable job, etc. But I didn't see any of that. All I saw was someone who had nothing to offer. There's no way that any girl I talked wouldn't have picked up on that. But I grew up, and so did the girls I talked to. Girls want the bad boy, women want a man. When I finally got some confidence in myself I started really talking to women, from a viewpoint of "here's what I got, love me or don't". And amazingly enough I soon found me a real woman -- going on over two years now.

[Missy Vixen]

147. Congratulations!

Self-confidence is ALWAYS attractive.

I'll bet your young woman thinks SHE'S the lucky one.

Julie

[Flying Dream Blues]

87. Excellent post!! nt

[Lorien]

104. Sadly true, more often than not

I met one of those guys through an internet dating site. He was charming at first-not much to look at, not very successful, but we seemed to share many of the same viewpoints. I wanted to email him for a while to see if we had many of the same goals in mind, but he wanted me to fly out of state (on my own dime) to meet him ASAP. Of course that didn't sit well at all-I barely knew the guy for starters. When I finally told him flatly that I didn't know him well enough to meet him well enough he snapped "Then this isn't worth my time. If I don't get a good look at you in the flesh then I don't know what kind of mother you'll make, and I'm not getting any younger". (he was 41) Obviously that was a man with the very agenda that you outlined!

I have a good friend (met him on a blind date) that got himself a Russian bride. He tried the online dating scene for years without success; he's a very nice man, but eccentric and not a good conversationalist. He's a comic book inker who collects all manner of toys, figurines, comic books, and DVDs. He's gotten himself in real financial trouble because of his obsessive need to collect. His home-though clean-is maddening because it's overflowing with STUFF. It takes him a good half hour to tell a story that most here would tell in five minutes. He's also very short, so that doesn't work in his favor. Oddly enough he and his wife seem to be making things work. They have a child now and she seems to tolerate his odd habits-though she has managed to curb some of his spending (a good thing). I just hope that I'm not misreading the situation and that he doesn't end up alone again someday, as so often happens with overseas brides.

[raccoon]

118. Great post! nt

[IronLionZion]

65. My parents had an arranged marriage and are very happy. It's not for everyone.

Their two families spoke to each other and there were a lot of people involved in it. Sometimes your family knows you better than you know yourself and can think of things you wouldn't consider if you were madly in love. My parents wrote letters to get to know each other and they met one week before the wedding. Like any relationship, you have to make it work. It doesn't just work on its own. Happy Ending. We're Indian-American. My Dad at the time was living in the US and my Mom was living in India then came here after the wedding.

Note that it isn't for everyone and I am not promoting it. But how's the divorce rate in the US? last I checked it was 50%

What do you think the divorce rate in India is?

http://www.divorcerate.org/

http://www.divorcerate.org/divorce-rate-in-india.html

[TexasBushwhacker]

86. I'm glad it worked for them

I had a friend who also had an arranged marriage with her husband. However, the biggest reason that the divorce rate is so low in India is because women have few options other than marriage, especially if they are poor. Do I have to tell you about "dowry deaths"?

[IronLionZion]

89. Dowry and murder are against the law in India

and women's options vary radically in different parts of India. There are places like Gujarat with severe female shortages because some desperately poor and uneducated people kill their daughters because sons bring in money and daughters cost money.

And then there is Kerala, where my family is from, where women outnumber men and are expected to have advanced educations and careers. One of my grandmothers was a doctor and landowner, the other was a teacher. I was raised by smart independent women and have a smart independent girlfriend. I don't know anything else. That's something that most westerners rarely believe let alone understand.

[DarkTirade]

112. India's a big place with a big population.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there's a bit more diversity there than a casual overview can show. :P

[devilgrrl]

68. Where'd those gits get their social skills? Maxim magazine?

I'm afraid to hear what kind of women they find attractive.

That shit is right out of 'The Stepford Wives'

:crazy:

[cloudbase]

79. Here is why techie guys make great husbands.

Why Engineers Make the Best Husbands
When Choosing a Mate, Compare These Other Professionals to Engineers

DOCTORS
Supposedly, all women are after a Doctor, so don't expect your relationship to last more than 5 years. Eventually, he'll run off with some nurse from his office, or one of his young women patients that is pretending to be sick. He'll wait until you are stuck with a few kids to do this. This is not a problem with your Engineer husband. He had a hard enough time meeting you. It is unlikely he'll ever meet another woman in his profession.

LAWYERS
Do you seriously expect an honest, trusting relationship with someone who gets paid for lying? Once again, this is not a problem with you Engineer spouse. He doesn't have enough social skills to lie convincingly. An additional drawback to marrying a lawyer is when the divorce happens, you will get nothing.

SALESMEN
See honesty segment under "LAWYERS." Plus, he will be traveling to trade shows, etc. where he will be in the company of other equally trustworhty individuals. Don't be surprised when you get the invitation to show up on the Ricki Lake show. The company that your Engineer husband works at will keep him in a cage, often called a cubicle, until he is ready to go home to you.

HAZARDOUS PROFESSIONS (POLICE OFFICER, FIREMAN, CONSTRUCTION WORKER)
Your husband, if not dead by some accident, will face daily severe injury. The worst thing your Engineer will face is losing his eyesight by staring at the terminal for too long. This hazard actually has some benefits. For one, he will not notice that you are getting older, since you will be a blur. He will remember you as when he first met you, because the memory will still be sharp, and when you ask, "Honey, were you looking at her?" he'll honestly be able to say that he didn't even see her.

TEACHER
The only reason he entered this profession is so that he could be surrounded by newly post-pubescent girls who idolize him. He'll be in jail soon, and then you'll have to look for another man.

[redqueen]

80. UGH!

LYSISTRATA, BITCHES!

Shit. I knew I shouldn'ta come back in here. :mad:

[TexasBushwhacker]

81. The problem with men

I'm sure it's rough. There was a time when as long as a man could prove he was a "good provider" he would have plenty of women interested. The thing is, now many women can provide for themselves, so they expect something more from a mate. Someone they like to talk to. Someone who makes them laugh. Someone that they have common interests with. Someone they have chemistry with. Whereas being a good provider might have been the biggest priority in generations past, it may not be today, at least not for the kind of woman that these guys are looking for.

Here's a great story here. 51 year old ordinary guy, "meets and falls in love over the Internet" with a 38 year old Chinese woman. He brings her to the US, marries her, and then she disappears!

Here's the guy:

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080304/GPG0101/80304024

Here's his "wife"

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/16176552.html

She finally called. They didn't say she returned, but she let him know she's alive. He insists they were happily married, although she spoke very little English, so how he knew that, well .....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. You've got it exactly right, TBW

It's not enough to be a good provider. Why get married to or even date someone who bores you silly after five minutes?

[JVS]

82. Oh boy.

:popcorn:

[Jamastiene]

84. So, basically, this guy drives women crazy and makes them want

to kill themselves. Why am I not surprised? :shrug:

[WildEyedLiberal]

92. I get SO tired of the "girls don't like nice guys" routine

I have a guy friend - who has made it abundantly clear that he is attracted to me and wants to date me, and I have in return made it abundantly clear that while I think he is a good guy I am not interested in him as a partner - who goes ON and ON about this. Honestly, it feels like a personal indictment every time he brings it up in front of me, because I recently had a terrible experience with an asshole ex-boyfriend. It's as if he's saying, "well, what did you expect to happen - if you just dated a nice, simple, uncomplicated guy like me, I'd treat you right and you'd never get hurt like that again." It's a form of emotional manipulation, an attempt to guilt me into dating him, and I honestly resent it quite deeply.

Dating him would be fine and dandy if I were remotely attracted to him. But I'm not, and I'm not going to settle for a "nice guy" who will provide for me and treat me like a goddess just because I'm lonely. Quite frankly, being "nice" isn't enough. If the chemistry isn't there, then there is no hope for a relationship. Period. You can lie to yourself and convince yourself that "it'll come" in time, but it won't, and you're just deceiving yourself and your partner. Also, "nice" is frequently code for "dull." This guy doesn't seem to have many other friends or much to do outside of wanting to hang out with me. I'd get bored about a month into such a relationship. Perhaps not coincidentally, this guy is also a computer tech geek. I have tons of guy geek friends, but I wouldn't date any of them - not because I'm into "macho" guys or because geekdom "weirds me out" - quite the contrary as I'm something of a geek myself. But very few of them have any real idea how to communicate or relate emotionally to women. They are either arrogant and looking for a woman who, looks-wise, is WAY out of their league - some kind of Maxim hot hausfrau fantasy - or they're cluelessly obsequious and think that if they tell a woman that she's a beautiful goddess and that they'd crawl across burning coals for the chance to kiss her feet that she'll be so dazzled by their devotion as to fall instantly in love with them. I want to be loved, not deified. My apologies to geek guys who don't fall into either of those categories, as I am only speaking from personal experience.

The point of this rather long and rambling post is that most "nice guys" who bitch about not getting girls use that old canard as an excuse to blame women for their own shortcomings as potential partners. I think your coworker was definitely trying to "guilt" you into getting with him, much like my guy friend tries to guilt me. After all, if it's not true, and women really DO like "nice guys," then there's no reason for you not to sleep with him, right? Right? Right? :sarcasm:

[SarahB]

111. I agree.

If a man's capable of a real relationship, he doesn't waste his time "swooning" over some girl from afar. He goes pursues a woman who has some possibility. Worshiping someone from afar (or who has expressed no interest romantically) and that self-pity garbage is just excuse not have to put yourself out there and take risks. Relationships (good ones) can be risks. Life is a risk. I'll never understand the wannabe folks that just wallow in self pity, yet blame everyone else for their actions. Grow up!

[raccoon]

120. I think that's the case with lots of men who think "women don't like nice guys."

"They are either arrogant and looking for a woman who, looks-wise, is WAY out of their league "


I've posted the following before, but I think it deserves a re-post.

One possible explanation for this “nice guy” syndrome:

"…many of the guys arguing for the "women don't date nice guys" are not interested in dating any ole "nice girl." They want to date a hot babe. Now, the hot babe who has got herself all together really *can* land the guy who is "all that, and a bag of chips." (i.e., a hot guy who has it all together--mazel tov, you beautiful and together couple!) So, for the guy who is merely "all that" but not "the bag of chips" (or the "bag of chips," but not really "all that"), the best shot at getting a hot babe is to go for the hot-but-messed-up babe. Messed up women *do* often date jerks (that I will definitely conceed). So, in a nutshell, why do these guys get their undies all in a wad about the messed up women who date jerks? Because maybe their only chance with a hot babe is with such types of "damaged goods." "

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.marriage/bro...

[Firespirit]

94. Tech guys in general are horrible sexists

Disclaimer: I realize that this is not true for every tech guy.

But as a software engineer, a female in a field where I am outnumbered between 10 and 20 to 1, I've witnessed some things I thought I'd be immunized from, in college because of my stellar GPA, and in the workforce because of my resume and rankings on industry-recognized aptitude tests.

I've been asked in interviews the following questions:

* Would you say you are an emotional person? (I'm not a robot, no, but that's not the point, is it?)
* What do you think about workplace dating? (At a small firm where there was ONE woman on staff compared to 10 men. Somehow I doubt the question was about whether I cared if gay co-workers dated.)
* You're single? Do you have a fiance or boyfriend? (I answered this by saying I was a lesbian. I'm bi, and rapidly becoming misandrist, so it's not a bald-faced lie.)
* Do you object to posters and other personal effects of employees depicting (sexy) female fantasy/sci-fi characters? (A very casual office. And, dude, I AM a sci-fi/fantasy fan. I think the sorceress in a revealing outfit is hot too.)

In school, I had a days-long dispute with two guys on my senior project team who pretty much told me to my face that they thought I was a "token female" in CS, because in their pea brains, women couldn't do that math stuff.

:grr: :grr: :grr:

Now I'll wait for the non-douchebag tech guys to find this. :hi:

[crispini]

101. Gawd. How inappropriate.

I like the "nice" version of tech guy who respects me for my skills and brains and treats me like a peer... sounds like you have had the opposite experience. Yuk! My condolences.

[Firespirit]

102. They were apparently very arrogant and full of themselves

Techie elitists, with a nice side helping of sexism thrown in for good measure. It's as if they were picked on in adolescence, like many geeks are, and became incredibly conceited from it rather than shrugging it off OR letting it get to them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. I dated someone like that once

He was a classic nerd, and I fell for his "nice guy" routine--the sweet smile, the adoring words, the chicken soup when I had the flu. (What can I say? I was young and stupid.)

I soon found out that

1) He didn't bathe nearly often enough, and his excuse was that "he was too busy."

2) He picked fights over trivia, and I often couldn't tell what he thought we were supposed to be arguing about.

3) He was horrible at social events, insisting that people talk about or do what he wanted.

4) If he got caught up in an "important" role-playing game, he wouldn't show up when he had promised to.

5) He planned a spring break camping trip for us without asking me whether I like camping. (I don't.)

I could go on with more intimate details, but it all added up to a very self-centered and arrogant individual. I finally broke up with him after I realized that my friends were making sure that he was out of town or otherwise unavailable before inviting me anyplace, that it wasn't just my imagination that he was irritating.

The other "nice guy" of the come-on-too-strong-right-away was my stalker. We never dated--there was something about him that creeped me out from the beginning--but I spent my whole senior year of college looking over my shoulder and trying to avoid him.

[JoDog]

116. I fell for a "classic nerd" too

Very smart, the first guy to send me flowers. Fantastic sex. Still legally married to his wife, but in the home stretch of a mult-year divorce. Then on Christmas Day, he informed me that he was interested in polyamory. OK, not a total deal breaker, but he was already dating another woman and he was just sure I would love her too and we could make a big happy family within 5 minutes of meeting each other, sleep in the same bed every night, oh and how soon could I move from the Chicago area to the St. Louis area? And don't worry, everyone's going to be equal here!

Oh, and while he was going to be having sex with the both of us, I was not "allowed" to persue any other relationships for myself. And he had no intention of legally marrying either of us. And he hoped I wanted to have kids, because the Lady 2 was too old to have them. And she's ready to move in with him right away.

I told him 1). The scenario he was suggesting was moving too fast for me. We had only been long-distance dating a few months and I wasn't ready to make any long-term decisions. 2). The fact that the two of them were spending so much time together, and his friends and co-workers already knew and accepted her as his girlfriend, made the idea of me being an equal in this relationship disengenuous. 3.) I'm not sure I want to have kids. 4.) Even if I do, considering the fluidity of such a situation, I would need to be legally married to him to ensure legal and financial protection for the kids.

His response: A month of silence. He didn't even have enough balls to let me go or return messages. I had to call him up and end it officially.

[samsingh]

96. women like 'bad' boys

[Firespirit]

98. Friendly advice. You'd better put on a flame suit.

You're wrong, BTW.

Some women like "bad boys."

Some women like men they can control and manipulate. (Manipulation is sexy.)

Other women like men with issues out the wazoo so they can take care of them and be surrogate mothers.

Other women like gentlemen.

Other women like women.

[samsingh]

107. the last one you state is exciting :)

generalizations by their nature are not all inclusive.

but i've asked many women about this andt i heard many times that the 'bad boy' is attractive. I'm not talking about a brute here.

I'm told that a little bit of 'bad' is exciting to alot of women. The definition of 'bad' varies, i'm sure.



just like some men like
blondes
others like brunettes
some men like brainy women
others like athletes

me- i like them all!

[Iggo]

99. Chicks, man.

My experience is this: If ya don't treat them like the enemy, things usually work out pretty goddam decent.

[kineneb]

100. nice geeks guys good, me a geek too...

why should I be interested in someone who has never heard of Schroedinger's Cat, played/plays RPGs, thinks science and art museums are cool, would be willing to wear Renaissance clothing, or is willing to listen to Bach organ works with me?

I don't ride motorcycles, spend my life in a gym, or tolerate narcissistic assholes. These guys want Stepford wives or Barbie dolls. Bleh.

[DarkTirade]

113. Well until I tell you whether I've heard of it or not...

then my knowledge of Shroedinger's Cat will be in a constant state of flux. :P

[JoDog]

117. Amen, Kinebeb!

We should troll for guys together!

[Pacifist Patriot]

124. I'd qualify for everything except RPGs.

Well wait a minute. I think my gifted program class in the 8th grade played D&D for awhile.

Personally, I think there is probably someone out there for everyone. Now whether or not there are enough emotionally and psychologically health adults ready to be an individual in an interdependent partnership? That's an entirely different question.

[SarahB]

109. Here's me ("The bitch")

Guy 1: "one guy tells us he was married but his wife died. By suicide. Then his girlfriend after that turned out to be psychotic."... He turns to me and says, "You don't know how bad it is- I can understand why men go to other countries to find wives".

Me: "I'm sorry (ok, not so bitchy). Maybe you need a relationship break for figure out why that happens or I suppose if you want to find some in a desperate situation you can control, go for that foreign country thing."


Guy 2: "Then he tells us what a negative reaction he gets when he tells women that he is a computer professional. But if he tells them he just got out of jail for cocaine posession they think he's great."

Me: "Why do you try to pick up dumb women?"

I will speak my mind right then and there, but at the same time am charming and friendly enough that it ends up making them feel like assholes for being the jerks that they are. Sometimes though, I get to be a "bitch".

There are no "nice guys" or "bad guys" (with the exception of the truly evil sociopathic raper child molesters puppy killer freaks). People are people with different opinions, experiences and ways of handling things and some of them DO need to be seriously educated. I don't need the nice bullshit. I want respect and REAL from people. Not phony crap. It's meaningless. Just don't let people intimidate you with this crap. They're insecure with poor relationship skills. Nothing more.

[NewJeffCT]

115. I'd call that humorous

not "bitchy"

you'd probably get a few laughs from the other guys if you had said something like that to "out of jail" comment.

[IronLionZion]

119. Sarah, I think you're the type of "bitch" that men like me love

Haha, you don't seriously think you're a mean bitch do you? You seem like a smart independent woman who thinks for herself and isn't afraid to speak her mind.

I'll agree with the no nice guys or bad guys because it's stupid to label people. People are very unique individuals. When I was a lonely pathetic virgin, I never thought it was because I was nice. I just needed to learn to be more confident and assertive and romantic.

[SarahB]

131. No, I don't think I'm mean.

On rare occasions, I've been accused of the "bitch" thing (usually by men who act like cretins and wonder why I'm not interested, so I tend to mock the term). :eyes:

Actually, I've been reasonably successful in relationships (but there are no failures for me anyway; only experiences), but I've never had a problem with making the first move when I find someone attractive who might be afraid to approach me first. People get so scared of rejection, but we're all looking for for somewhat the same thing: someone who'll listen to us and care about us (along with the knocking boots part too generally ;)). All anyone can do is be the best person you can be and just put yourself out there. Not always easy, but no other choice if you want to meet someone. Risks are just part of anything in life.

[IronLionZion]

135. no failures for me either, just opportunities to learn and improve

and yes of course I have been and still am very nervous about approaching women. You don't want to know some of the terribly humiliating things that can happen, especially now that there is myspace and blogs and other ways for large numbers of mutual acquaintances to find out that you got shot down and laugh at you.

While I would never be interested in someone like that, the risks are there and have to be faced in order to find the good ones.

Big kudos to women like you who make things simpler and better. :loveya:

[Pacifist Patriot]

123. Now this sounds more like me.

Good response.

[The Animator]

114. When I was younger, I had completely misinterpreted some of the best advice I ever been given.

My cousin, who I respected and considered a credible source in matters of the opposite sex had once declared.

"Some of the greatest relationships I've ever had were with women that I'd been friends with first."

My interpretation of that statement was completely off the mark. Of course my cousin wasn't exactly Shakespeare in imparting the true essence of the statement. For years afterwards I suffered under the delusion that in order to hook up with a girl, I needed to be their friend. I needed to be the one that they confided their secrets too. Listen to them prattle on about what they did at the mall. Offer them advice on homework, dealing with their parents etc. Where did that get me? A one way express ticket to the fuckin' friend box is where that got me. In their eyes, I was just another one of the girls.

Yeah, years later I realize what my Jedi Love Master cousin had really meant.

Don't be one of HER friends, treat her like one of YOUR friends. Treat her like one of the guys, if she trips.. laugh at her. If she goes all girly and starts talking about the mall, call her a dork, and tell her that men have no interest in what goes on at the mall. Do not be afraid to be yourself. Don't do everything little thing that she asks you to do. Don't change who you are to make yourself fit her description of the perfect man. Do not try to become part of her world, you are responsible your own universe, and no, she is not the center of it.

I've gone from one extreme to the other. I've been a "nice guy" and I went from there to being "a complete and total prick". Neither extreme was the right answer, for me. Although in fairness, "prick Animator" got more, and higher quality action than "nice Animator" ever did. I've settled into a mindset that's comfortable for me "Bold Animator": one who says what he thinks with little regard for what people will think of him once he's said it. One who goes after what he wants, subtlety be damned. Does not require the approval of others.

Example:
The following is a snippet from an actual conversation.

Girl "Would you still like me if I were flat chested?"
Animator "Well, I'd still think you were a great girl,... I just wouldn't be attracted to you."

She appreciated the honesty.

[Ellen Forradalom]

125. It is a courtesy to be Bold

Because people who interact with you gain a better understanding of you. It is hard to respect someone when you don't know their limits, needs, tastes, desires or boundaries.

[TexasBushwhacker]

126. So did you ask her

"Would you like me if I had a little dick?"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

129. While you're perhaps a bit more rude than I like, I can definitely see the merits

of your approach. When I think of the men I've known who have been popular with women, one thing that comes through clearly is that they don't have one face for women they're trying to bed and another face for everyone else.

[DarkTirade]

153. There's a fine line between rude and honest.

And nobody said you can't have one foot on either side of it. :P

[The Animator]

157. Rude is just part of the package hon.

I've spent the past ten years working at a theme park. The shear overexposure to massive amounts of stupidity has molded me into the rat bastard that I've become. I don't go out of my way to be overly rude to women I like. I just treat them like I treat everyone else, and I'm rude to just about everyone. For the most part, anyone that has gotten to know me, realizes that my gruffness is just part of my sense of humor. Add to it, that my tone plays an important role. I poke fun at women I like, but I do it in that playful teasing kind of way.

[SarahB]

133. Men communicate differently.

I've been told that I "think like a guy" many times. I do have a different view of relationships than most women that's for sure.

What's funny now is seeing my daughter and her dating life (she's 16). She's the only girl with four brothers. Now, my daughter is a knockout and has had her fair share of boys interested in her. She understands how men communicate and has a lot of guy friends which I think is a huge part of why they find her appealing also. She says, "I want someone who'll give me space and let me have my own life first." She is her own person. She could take her pick of boys, but she has some girl friends who put up with such crap just to "have a guy" and act almost desperate. I tend to think she knows that she doesn't "need" anyone and that's something that unfortunately not the cultural norm for young women.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

132. Did you leave out the part

where you tell us this marvelous specimen has 2 heads and is a member of the Free Republic and he farts and smokes while eating?

They sound like LOSERS to me if they are seriously thinking that arranged marriages are "happy." The fact is, they have the same divorce rate as the people, like me, who got married the less old fashioned way... by choice.

I think he is full of shit when he tells you he goes out and admits he is a felon coke addict... This is all bark and no bite.
:hi:

BTW, how old is Casanova? How old are the women he is "interested" in?

[RadiationTherapy]

134. Many arranged marriages are happier.

Then tend to be rooted in deep religious and cultural beliefs which help them through many tough times. There is much less "falling out of love" because in an arranged marriage, love and respect are nurtured and grown slowly resulting in a mature love and not the flash in the pan type of biochemically based "romantic" love. The relationship is not founded on appearance and "coolness".

Of course, there are abusive stories, but I think arranged marriage has its virtues.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

137. If you look at societies where arranged marriages are common, you'll also find

that they're societies in which men and women largely lead separate social lives: traditional East Asia, Middle Eastern Arabs, ultra-Orthodox Jews, traditional India...

The standards for a "good marriage" are lower. If the husband earns money and doesn't beat the wife, and if the wife keeps the house clean, cooks good meals, and bears a few children, and if neither is unfaithful, the marriage is judged to be "good."

There were still some arranged marriages in Japan when I first went there in the 1970s, and the matchmakers' association used to advertise on TV. The standards for a good marriage were like the ones I describe in the paragraph above.

Now, however, Japanese women are holding down jobs after marriage and having fewer children, so they can be fussier. The poor men haven't caught up with how to handle the situation, since in the old days, a guy with no social skills could just go to a matchmaker. Now they're even more bewildered than the self-styled "nice guys" of the U.S.

[RadiationTherapy]

138. Well, that sounds like a good marriage to me.

Excepting the undertones of estrangement between the partners and the gender specific "duties", of course. We all want to feel fulfilled and not just maintained; I understand that.

My wife was pregnant 2 or so weeks after we started hanging out. We found out as we were separating. We both decided to "give it a try". We agreed to stick it out for 2 years and go our separate ways if it didn't work. We had to learn a lot about one another, compromise and sacrifice aspects of ourselves for the sake of the partnership. The love that grew from our dedication to our daughter and one another resulted in our marriage 3 years later. It is very like an arranged marriage in that we really didn't know too much about each other and didn't even really dig each other that much when we made our "pact". It is also different because, at the outset, we did "choose" each other and were not pressured by outsiders to stick it out.

I can imagine that courting skills are not well developed in nations where arranged marriages are common.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

140. Courting skills definitely are not well developed in such countries

When I was a student in Japan, I once attended an international party where one of the Japanese men cornered a bunch of Western men and earnestly asked, "What do you do on a date? And how do you flirt?"

This was before Star Trek: the Next Generation, but picture Data asking such questions, and you'll have some idea of how clueless he was.

Back when I was spending time on large university campuses, I was occasionally approached by men from Asia or Africa, total strangers, who walked up and said things like, "I like you. Can we be lovers?" I'd try to explain gently that they needed to be a bit more subtle...

[RadiationTherapy]

142. Oh, man!

I work at a university and we have a Zimbabwean student in his 30s and he is banned from our area because of this very behavior! I didn't think of it this way, but i know from conversation that he comes from a culture of arranged marriages. Now I feel bad!

Well, not too bad; he made several crude comments about women's bodies and wanted them "to be his wife".

[QueenOfCalifornia]

141. Statistically,

as I said, arranged marriages and those who marry by choice have the same happiness or if you like, failure factor. I did not say that arranged marriages are less successful.
I was making a point - one that makes it even more stupid to go out and try to find happiness through an arranged marriage based on the false belief that one is more likely to find happiness if Uncle Buck picks the bride to be.

My husband's grandmother who died a year ago, came from Iraq and her marriage was arranged when she was just 14. He was quite a bit older - they came to America just in time to experience the depression. From NY they came to the central valley of CA where they managed to buy some farm land. They literally came from having nothing to end up rather successful. My husband was very close to his grandfather and he loved his grandmother dearly. The marriage was not perfect but they loved each other, raised 3 children and left an interesting and honest legacy. The old woman and I became friends and she told me that when she met her husband, she was relieved to see that he was a handsome man - he turned out to be respectful and loving with a powerful work ethic. The husband died way before she did but she loved him to the end. It is, in my opinion, a beautiful love story.

[5LeavesLeft]

143. They work harder

I read this somewhere, can't find a link. But it stated that one of the reasons arranged marriages work is because the couple went into it thinking they had to make it work, they had to get along with their spouse, instead of today's "I'll love you forever, or until you bother me, whichever comes first".

[RadiationTherapy]

144. YES! This is what my wife and I went through

Our motivation was for our unborn daughter; we "had" to stick it out. I feel we are very strong for it.

[BreweryYardRat]

139. A big chunk of their problems might be the size of the local dating pool.

Where is this tech company located?

Somewhere like Portland, Seattle, or Boston is probably going to have a higher proportion of geek/goth/punk/indie girls, who'd be more willing to date a tech worker (at the very least, they'll have some similar interests.)

Whereas here in Tampa, the local pool of geek/goth/punk/indie girls is very small, which means I have a much harder time finding dates. (The fact that I'm extremely antisocial, batshit crazy, and have a gut doesn't help either. ;) )

Mind you, I suspect these guys would have trouble with women anywhere, but they'd have more of a chance with a larger dating pool.

[Blue_Tires]

145. there is some truth in what he said...

but is does appear some of his woman problems are self-inflicted as well (without me knowing more about his situation)

[undeterred]

150. SO YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENED TODAY

One of the other men in the group starts talking about the situation with the mormon teenager complaining about being abused and how they took 50 people away on the basis of her word alone. The guy with the suicide wife says, yeah, like 16 year old girls never lie- and they go on and on about how unfair it is to the man. And another man said its so unnatural to prohibit men from doing what comes naturally- that which is done the world over- which is fucking and marrying as many teenagers as they want.

So I chimed in that this behavior was illegal in this country as I thought it should be and I was quite uncomfortable with the conversation. And just then the 22 year old male spoke up and said that he was uncomfortable with it too. But the one guy won't shut up and keeps explaining why he thinks its a good idea and he thinks it was unfair to take all those girls out of the home. So the supervisor told him to shut up right now or he would be fired. He had to say it 3 times. Finally the guy shut up. The supervisor and big mouth left the room and didn't come back.

After that the young guy and I worked together the rest of the day. I'm glad he said something. It didn't occur to me that a man could be offended too.

I'll be glad when the week is over.

[DarkTirade]

152. I find it hard to imagine anyone not being offended by that, man or woman.

[RadiationTherapy]

154. Wow. That kind of thing would get me pretty hostile.

I am a pro and do not jeopardize my jobs, but I would have had to keep myself in check with that one.

[ileus]

151. as I always say....Women are the Devil!

[nomorenomore08]

155. Oh, no, that's not flamebait, not at all.

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

I do have a friend who once, when he was in a bad spot with a particular girl, said something about women being man's ruin. I reflected that this was probably true, but that the reverse was true as well. Men and women seem to do a pretty good job of ruining each other.

[The Animator]

156. No, no,

The Devil is not as cruel.

[Lil Missy]

158. Murikan wimmens just don't know their place!

:sarcasm: