Am I a freak for caring so much about animals?

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

I have been accused of misplaced priorities before by adopting cats instead of children (we can't have any of the latter). I can be in PetSmart and see 20 adorable children, but completely ignore them when I see a cat, dog, bird, gerbil, whatever. I will walk right past cute kids to pet a dog or hold a kitten. Does anyone else do this?

[REP]

1. I DO.

I'm sterilized twice, no kids and four cats (and one husband). Never had the slightest urge to have, hold or even look at a baby human but have to stay away from pet adoption fairs.

[flvegan]

2. *raises hand*

That sounds like me.

[Midlodemocrat]

24. Dude. She's not talking about EATING the animals, but having them as pets.

:eyes:


:loveya:

[LeftyMom]

3. Not at all.

If you don't want kids but adopt because it's socially expected for you to want them, you'll mess them up pretty good. Happened to my kid's Dad (well, his adoptive parents wanted a kid, they just wanted a kid who was their clone and not one with his own interests.)
On the other hand, if you like animals and enjoy caring for them, they'll have happy lives with you. And of course, if you wanted to do both you could, your love of animals and lack of interest in kids are separate issues.

[Gormy Cuss]

104. The thread could end right here.

You've summed it up rather nicely, LM. It's not at all selfish to know that you don't have the desire or emotional capacity or whatever else to raise an adopted child.

[kedrys]

4. Not at all

6 cats, all rescues. No kids, no desire to have kids - which is good 'cause we're both too fucked up in the head to have them - too old to have kids, and not really thrilled with other people having kids either.

[TZ]

5. Me

Although I think some little kids are really cute..give me a kitty or a cute puppy any day. No one has ever told me I have misplaced priorities. Perhaps my parents would like another grandchild but not enough to ever condemn me for being a pet lover.

[zanne]

6. The world needs people who love animals, too.

I never wanted children, but I have four cats who happened to come to my back door, dirty, cold and hungry. I like to think that, even though I'm not bringing up children, I'm at least helping the earth by taking care of some of her unwanted animals.

[Pool Hall Ace]

7. No, you're not a freak.

There's no law that says we must care about children more than we care about animals. Don't allow anyone to make you feel otherwise! :hi:

[ThomCat]

8. I'm right there with you.

I've never had a chance to have kids. So all my love and attention goes to my animals. I often wish I could have more animals. :(

[MISSDem]

9. I thought that was normal.

I have five cats and two dogs all of whom were looking for homes when I got them. God knows to drop them in front of me when a place is needed out this way.

[Fox Mulder]

10. I'm the same way.

[bigwillq]

11. I like animals better too!

:hi: :bounce: :hi:

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

12. Glad to see there are several of us out there!

I LIKE kids - but I LOVE animals.

[distantearlywarning]

13. Hell yes.

I am actually a bit repulsed by babies.

But hand me a kitten and I go all mushy inside for hours!

[BuelahWitch]

14. I do it too

I would much rather visit someone with a house full of pets than a house full of kids. :hi:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

15. If you're a freak, so am I.

Kids are OK, but given the choice I always head for the kittens and puppies.

[MedleyMisty]

16. It's specieism.

And it annoys the freak out of me. Whenever someone starts going on about how you should care more about humans than other species, I think, "Umm, my cats don't hate and kill each other over stupid stuff."

[quip]

20. Specieism? You SHOULD care more about humans than other species. If you don't, you are a freak.

And BTW; your cats will kill for simple amusement. Just sayin'.

[LeftyMom]

22. Cats are obligate carnivores.

For them, hunting and playing with their food are instinctual behaviors. We can't really judge those behaviors by human conventions.

And it's speciesism. Suffice it to say you're completely wrong, but the reasons why would be a bit heavy for a lounge thread.

[quip]

25. We can agree to disagree at least, but let me ask you:

If a person whom you didn't know and a dog were drowning in a pond and you could only save one, are you telling me that it would be a toss-up in your mind as to which you'd attempt to rescue?

[LeftyMom]

26. If I was trapped on a desert island and it rained fried chicken, would I eat it?

Silly hypothetical questions are a waste of time. In the real world, the interests of human and non-human animals are generally served by the same actions.

[quip]

30. No, hypotheticals clarify thoughts and ideas.

In the real world, animals killed by the millions and eaten by humans every day. How is that serving the interests of animals?

[LeftyMom]

63. Are you asking *me* to defend humans eating animals?

:WTF:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

77. Hmmm... Original? Or Extra Crispy?

Cornflake-encrusted?

I'm not on a desert island, but your hypothetical question made me very hungry.

I might have to visit the Colonel ...

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

35. I agree

Even though Haruka's cat was eating tomato sauce tonight.

[flvegan]

23. What if you care equally? Am I a freak for caring equally for all life?

[quip]

27. Respecting life, in theory, is good. In practice? Sure, I live and let live. But a mouse

in my house, or any other bug/vermin/critter, will be summarily dispatched without a second thought.

[flvegan]

29. That's not what you said.

You said that if one didn't care for human life over other (animal) life, then one was a freak.

My question stands.

[quip]

31. Okay, let me clarify:

Which would upset you more; to see a dog executed or to see a human executed?

[flvegan]

34. Neither.

I'd be equally upset.

Now am I a freak?

[quip]

39. One more.

A crazed gunman breaks into a pet shop and executes 20 puppies. Then he heads down to an elementary school and executes 20 third graders. Still equally upset?

[flvegan]

42. Stop moving the goalposts.

You: "You SHOULD care more about humans than other species. If you don't, you are a freak."

I care the same. Therefore, I don't care more about humans. All life has equal value. I don't subscribe to speciesism.

Answer the fucking question.

[quip]

45. I promise I will, after you answer mine. I am moving the goalposts in order to give

YOU an out (providing you'll take it).

[flvegan]

48. I don't need an out.

[quip]

49. Okay, then what is your response to the actions of the crazed killer?

[flvegan]

53. My outrage merges.

You: "You SHOULD care more about humans than other species. If you don't, you are a freak."

I care the same. Therefore, I don't care more about humans. All life has equal value. I don't subscribe to speciesism.

Answer the fucking question.

[quip]

54. I think that you are dodging my question, but nonetheless

I am with you, fivegan, that we all should respect life. ALL life. But I don't think that by definition means that we respect all life equally. I think that it is healthy, normal, and fitting for people to be far more bothered by the execution of 20 children than by the execution of 20 puppies. That is, by a mile, the normal, human response. Other reactions, I would say, are an aberration of that normal response. That is as far as I will go.

[flvegan]

56. No, the dodge is on your part.

You: "You SHOULD care more about humans than other species. If you don't, you are a freak."

I care the same. Therefore, I don't care more about humans. All life has equal value. I don't subscribe to speciesism.

Answer the fucking question.

I don't know how many times I have to post the above 3 lines.

BTW, the "normal, human response" is selfish bullshit driven by human arrogance and flaws that I do my best to not subscribe to. Life is life, regardless.

We can agree to disagree on this, and that's okay. The *freak* thing, though...

[quip]

57. Then let's agree to disagree. As for the "freak' thing--

I attempted to define "freak" as an aberration or an anomaly; not the norm.

So if you and I headed onto the street corner and asked the crazed gunman question to 100 people, I'd say that 99 of them would be more upset with the execution of the children. But if that is, as you say, "selfish bullshit driven by human arrogance and flaws", then so be it.

I only pressed you to make sure that I really understood your position. I apologize that it didn't sink in the first 3 tries :P

And really, I didn't even bring it up for argument's sake, but to clarify positions. I admit that I am surprised by yours and lost's responses, but I certainly am not attempting to make any judgments, in any event. I'm just learning what and how you feel about things. :pals:

[flvegan]

58. Beer is on me.

And you're very much correct: "So if you and I headed onto the street corner and asked the crazed gunman question to 100 people, I'd say that 99 of them would be more upset with the execution of the children."

I would never dispute that. Doesn't change how I see it. I also hope that someday, that number (99/100) changes.

:toast:

[quip]

60. ...

:9

[BarenakedLady]

86. If we were both on that street corner

It would be 98/100, so there is that.

:)

[quip]

95. Fair enough. And after a little while, we would probably get a little thirsty, and so

we'd need to take a break and wet our whistles.... :toast:

[BarenakedLady]

96. Mmmmm beer. (n/t)

[quip]

98. ...

[LostinVA]

47. Both would upset me equally

Our pets are our kids. Both animal abuse and human rights abuses upset me.

[quip]

50. Not heinous enough. What about this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7563570&mesg_id=7564738

[LostinVA]

51. Are you drunk?

Seriously, I've always liked your posts, but you are just being nasty to some very good DUers here. Very much out of character for you.

Hypotheticals are bullshit, as stated above.

[quip]

55. I'm beginning to wish I were.

[TZ]

69. Do you think I enjoy being called unethical?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7563570&mesg_id=7564710
While I don't agree with everything temeah said, and he made his points in a kind of weird way, some people feel strongly about things. Lefty mom was giving an honest answer to a question but that doesn't mean that it doesn't anger the hell out of me, because I think I am a very ethical moral person. I think you are witnessing the same thing with temeah/flvegan and you.
Its also a bit insulting to accuse someone of being drunk because you don't agree with someone's POV.

[LeftyMom]

80. You asked.

You're involved in keeping our closest relatives in captivity, using them as research subjects, and you're worried about how people feel about that?

How do you think they feel? In cages, afraid? You have psychological mechanisms for coping with the thought, admittedly difficult for a social animal, that your actions cause others to think less of you. Yet you choose this work. You have the ability to rationalize and make excuses for what you do for a paycheck. What do they have? Repetitive motions? Rocking? Certainly they have no choice, they don't leave the cages at the end of the day. They're not gaining anything for their suffering. They won't leave the lab behind them, and find other work. Most of them will never leave a lab until they die, and if a fortunate few do, it'll be because people who think like I do care enough to make it happen, one way or another.

Don't play the victim. You're not the victim of your decision making or your line of work. The victims are your cousins in the cages.

[TZ]

89. Fine

We'll just test experimental drugs on people. Will that make you happy? That Nazi's were experts at that after all.
FYI, I don't ever come in contact with animals myself, and actually most of the animals are treated as good as any pet..If you don't realize that most researchers do care about their animals then you have never actually talked to any.
End of discussion from me. Some people just don't understand what the hell people like me do or WHY.

[LostinVA]

94. Pets aren't experimented on and killed last time I checked

[LeftyMom]

100. Well, some labs use dogs and cats bought from county shelters and class B dealers

many of those are former pets. Labs pay more for dogs that were pets, because they're easier to handle.

But yeah, lab animals aren't treated like pets. Treating pets like lab animals would result in a animal cruelty conviction, and a cage of one's own.

[LostinVA]

102. Exactly

BTW, did you know that Haruka's bridesmaid has two pet bunnies that were rescued from labs?

[LeftyMom]

103. That's awesome.

I love bunnies. I think I'm going to see about fostering one when the kittens are past their monster demon kittens from hell phase.

[LostinVA]

91. Good post

[TZ]

33. Flip side of the coin...

I love animals myself, but my work involves research on animals (primates) as much as it saddens me, I know we couldn't advance our medical knowledge without these unpleasant sacrifices, because I do feel humans have a certain amount of importance. I look forward to the day that we can do away with animal studies, but till then they are a necessary evil.
Does this make me an unethical person then?

[flvegan]

37. I don't judge ethical in medical research.

Not my place. Laws dictate that research has certain needs. Therefore, folks are forced to perform certain "work" involving animals.

[LeftyMom]

64. Yes. nt

[stuntcat]

17. I'm a freak too

It's official for me, I like animals more than people. Not only are the babies way cuter but the fate of all the animals is in humans' hands from now on. ANY animal threatened by our trash and populations is way more important than the shortsighted apes :hi:

[Wcross]

18. If you are, I am as well.

I really don't care for children all that much. As a matter of fact I can only tolerate them for VERY brief periods of time.

When it comes to animals I am a push over. I had five dogs & two cats until recently. When this girl showed up there was no question what would happen to her;


(the night she arrived)

She was staying the minute I found her in my doghouse. No questions. No worry that family might think I was crazy for adding another. The local shelter kills many more than they find homes for. She was in need of a home & I was ready willing and able to provide her one. Luckily my other dogs had no problems with her, she was a part of the pack on the first night.

[harmonicon]

41. too friggin cute

I also really like the expression of the older guy in the background knowing he's being upstaged. He's (she's?) a cutie too.

[quip]

19. The freaks are the ones who advocate that animal and humans should have equal rights.

[LeftyMom]

28. What on earth does that have to do with her question?

Tangent.

[quip]

32. My implication was that no, she isn't a "freak" about caring for animals so much;

the "freaks" are the ones who equate human and animal rights.

[flvegan]

38. Which rights?

I mean, are we talking about voting or the right to life, liberty, happiness? The right to not suffer at the hands of another?

[quip]

43. Whatever rights you care to assign. They would, presumably, be equal for both human and animal,

according to some (the freaks).

[flvegan]

46. Obviously, an animal hasn't the right to vote, among other things.

Nor the right to marry. Or carry a firearm at whichever age is supported by a state.

Like I asked, do the simple (inherent, if you will) rights such as the right to not suffer at the hands of another, to not have life and liberty not transcend species?

[LeftyMom]

65. Human and animal?

Humans *are* animals. We're just another great ape. Science did away with the silly superstitious notion that we were separate from other animals and somehow special back before your grandma was a twinkle in your great grandpa's eye.

[TZ]

68. Actually we are different from animals

We are the ONLY species that manipulates its environment instead of vice-versa.

[LeftyMom]

79. No.

Plenty of species manipulate their environment by building structures, harvesting plants, etc. Birds and chimps and any number of other creatures create nests. Bees and wasps make hives. Hell, some ants (ants! they're not much like us at all!) farm fungi (human beings, of course, had no significant agriculture until very recently, long after we were a distinct species and even well after we were anatomically modern.) Chimps are hunting red colobus monkeys to extinction.

Every proposal for the behavior that separates humans from animals (tool building, communication, active manipulation of the environment, art) has turned out to be wrong. As well it should. We're animals. Odd looking ones, to be sure, but still animals.

[quip]

82. If you want to equate building hives and nests to splitting atoms, fine.

If farming fungi and landing on the moon are equal, then I suppose we agree.

[LeftyMom]

85. We're not special.

All of our differences are matters of degree.

[quip]

87. I don't understand the reluctance to admit that we are special

If we are not special, then we have no responsibility to the rest of the world.

[LeftyMom]

88. Of course we're not special.

We follow from the same lineage. To argue that humans are distinct from animals, as some religionists do, is to argue from a position of outdated ignorance. We no longer have to settle for imaginary explanations of who we are and how we came to be. We are not a special creation, the favored children of some imaginary thunder god. We know that we are animals, because we are not substantially dissimilar, in form or genetics, from closely related animals.

So if you want to argue that humans are substantially different from other animals and are in some way special, at what point in our evolution did that specialness come to be?

[BarenakedLady]

90. What you said.

:thumbsup:

[quip]

92. I'm not arguing that we are special from our origins, but from our accomplishments. At whatever

point in time, we evolved self awareness. It really is irrelevant when it occurred, just that is has.

And because of this, we are now set apart, unique, and different than all of the rest.

[BarenakedLady]

93. Studies have shown other animals have self awareness

Damn, I was just reading about that somewhere recently. Hell if I remember where though. The bar for the superior "uniqueness" of humans keeps getting higher and higher every time it is shown what other animals are capable of. (bad grammar, I know).

[quip]

97. I will always use human accomplishments for my "uniqueness" metric.

Self awareness is only the very beginning.

I wonder if there are studies going on that look at the ability for any animal to actually ignore its own instincts. That's the magic threshold, in my estimation.

[BarenakedLady]

101. I think that happens all the time.

Like lionessess raising/nusing piglets comes to mind. That specific instance was human created however, so probably not a good example. But I'm pretty sure instances of that type of thing happen in the wild. There was a case I remember reading of a bird who was raising a homeless kitten recently.

:shrug:

[quip]

105. To me, that only shows how powerful the maternal instinct is compared another type.

[LeftyMom]

99. Again, we have no behavior which is without precedent.

Many of our behaviors, such as tool use, are more widespread, constant and obvious in our species than others. Does that make us special? It's hard to say, because any human criteria for special status of course focus on human priorities, the things which we admire in ourselves and traits we look for in mates. So in looking for animals most like us, animals that might have whatever specialness we choose to see in ourselves, we look for human-like traits, so we decide that chimps aren't special because while intelligent and adept tool users, they're not as good at communication as we are. Dolphins? They communicate well, work in groups, bubble netting could be a sort of tool use. But they don't really change their environment much, they certainly have no structures or tool use in wild populations (captive dolphins are trained to use tools, but I don't they've ever shown an independent desire to do so.) Why? They don't seem to need to, for one thing. One could argue that this harmony is at least as special as human behavior.

By dolphin standards (were there such a thing? We don't really understand their communication and have no idea of knowing the extent of their thought process to know if they judge humans they encounter.) humans might not be special. We don't echolocate, our communications are comparatively simple, we don't continue to play to the extent that dolphins do throughout their lives, our family structures break down after adolescence, we need protection from our environment rather than choosing areas in which we thrive. If we looked at human beings as dolphins might, we might not think ourselves so worthy of special status.

So trying to find specialness is at it's heart a form of hubris. It starts with the assumption that humans are special (because god made us that way, because we'd have to behave differently if we decided we were not, whatever the current reasoning) and then evaluates other species by human standards, and has them all come up short for not being human enough. That doesn't mean we're special, only that we're human and other animals are not human.

[quip]

106. Look at the issue from the perspective of what humans *have accomplished*, as

opposed to any other species. Are we not pretty damned special from that POV?

[Ahpook]

21. Human's "being" are a waste:)

Love the animals. Maybe they will safe us from our stupidity? :)

[harmonicon]

36. yep, I'm just the same.

I'm growing to like kids more now that I'm a bit older and some of my friends have kids, but I don't think I'd go so far as calling them cute. Kittens and puppies on the other hand are the best.

[stuntcat]

40. which species is trashing the entire planet?

which species has been imprisoning innocents and building labor camps as long as we can trace history? Which animal justifies what they do to each other and to the other animals and to the Earth with the "in God's name" BS? :P
No other animal has been such a massive failure. I will never again feel pride in humanity. (sorry to offend :hi:)

[Critters2]

44. Me, too. I love my four animals, and yes, I treat them like my kids.

If there's a dog activity going on in town, the beagle and I will be there!

When I find myself wishing I'd had kids, I know it's because my mom wanted to be a grandmother, and I feel like I really let her down. She wouldn't say that, but I know she wanted grandkids. My brother has Asperger's and real trouble with relationships. My sister has issues that probably make it best she not have kids. So, I felt like it was my job. But it wasn't to be. And I'm fine with that, when I can be honest.

But I spoil the critters to death, and work for the well-being of other critters. And this I don't feel at all guilty about!!

[nam78_two]

52. If you are, then hello there fellow freak :) ! nt

[Hawkeye-X]

59. I do.. sometimes..

But my wife is semi-allergic, and we did have a hypo-allergenic Maltpoo, but my wife made me give it up. I am still in touch with the new owners though, and he is doing very well. (He's 5 years old)

[emilyg]

61. Me. I have 8 strays. (cats)

[Robeson]

62. Short answer: No you're not a freak....

...you care. That's nothing to be ashamed about, or apologize for.

[Orsino]

66. I sometimes prefer the company of animals, too.

I don't esteem them above people, but popular pet animals are largely helpless in human society, in ways that most humans aren't. Their inability to adapt to our satisfaction can be about the saddest thing there is, because it's usually the animal that loses out, for reasons it has no chance of understanding.

[Tyler Durden]

67. Of Course.

We call the dogs "The GOOD children."

One of them is sick right now, and Deb and I could hardly sleep for worry.

[pookieblue]

70. if you are a freak...so am I. n/t

[LibertyLover]

71. Well I did both

Adopted 5 dogs (2 greyhounds, 2 whippets and a Siberian Husky), 2 rats, 2 guinea pigs, plus a kid. Let me tell you - sometimes I wish I'd stuck with fur kids. Especially when putting a cranky, exhausted 5 year old to bed. :rofl:

[grace0418]

72. I'm the same way. I love kids but give me a furry animal any day.

Kids grow up and turn into teenagers who hate you. Cats and dogs love you forever.

[Amaya]

73. nah...

I prefer to cuddle this

:)

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

74. Okay, I'll admit it - that is one cutie pie!

[Amaya]

76. ya , he's a sweetie

but I do love me some kittens!
nothing like cuddling a kitten ;)

[Burma Jones]

75. Not at all, cats are so much easier and cheaper than children

and animals are so unquestioning and will give you love and gratitude for the simplest of kindnesses.

Children are so much more work and riskier than animals.

I would say that you're very rational.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

78. These children you see in PetSmart ...

are they up for adoption? Or for sale? Do they look hungry? Are their cages clean?

Paying more attention to a dog than to somebody else's kid, I don't think that's any problem at all.

[Ellen Forradalom]

81. NO.

I love my son AND my dog.

Sounds like you need to head over to the Animal Rights group & make some friends!

[BarenakedLady]

83. Not at all.

Compassion isn't a flaw.

[ElboRuum]

84. Yes, you are a freak.

And what precisely is wrong with that? :toast:

[Kitty Herder]

107. If you're a freak, then I am, too. I'm the same way. nt