My sister has managed to totally freak me out this time.

[yardwork]

I've posted about her here before. She is in her mid-forties and has never managed to break even between her expenses and revenues in any single year of her adult life. My mother bails her out - month in and month out - and is miserable about my sister's life all the time.

Last July my sister bought a house using some kind of creative financing and finagling. In August she quit her job. She owns four horses and various other pets. She never stays in any one place for very long. She never keeps a job for very long. She moves from place to place, depending on the kindness of strangers and my mother's ceaseless handouts. She loses friends often. She goes into rages and alienates her landlords, employers, neighbors, everybody around her. Then she has to move out, quit her job, move on. Moving is quite a production with all those horses - none of which can be ridden or sold, according to her.

She has a degree from a good college and a master's degree from another good school. But she's never put together a career. She just careens from low-paying job to low-paying job, spending much of the time self-employed, uninsured, not making ends meet. She's never even paid much into social security. She has no savings. She has a lot of debt - old credit card debt, old graduate school loans, things she's never paid off. Her credit history is terrible.

In the four months since she quit her job she hasn't looked seriously for a replacement. She's cobbled together contract work. When I pointed out that contract work doesn't provide health insurance, retirement benefits, or steady income she got mad at me. Last week one of her contracts let her go.

Today her car burned out. She's looking at thousands of dollars in needed repairs. The car's in our mother's name anyway. My sister says she has no money for food, horse feed, or fuel oil. I've sent her $700 over the past three months. I'm not sending her more.

She needs to get a job and settle down and reduce her expenses to match income. She must know this, but she won't. I've concluded that she's selfish. I know that she probably has a personality disorder, but even so, she won't even TRY to help herself. She just bounces from disaster to disaster expecting somebody (our mom, me, her neighbors) to bail her out.

Anyone have any advice? I'm at the end of my rope.

[skygazer]

1. I think I responded to one of your posts about her

(unless it was someone else with a crazy irresponsible sister). I commented that she sounded just like my Aunt who is in her 80's now and has been like that all her life.

I've never known how to deal with someone like that. My father and his sisters cut off help for my aunt a couple of times but it never taught her anything - just left her in terrible, desperate straits. She too had marketable talents but never used them.

My family continues to bail her out and no doubt will until she dies. No one can see any other choice. :(

[yardwork]

27. I remember your post and PM - thank you for responding again.

[poisonivy]

2. Sorry to hear about your troubles

but there is only ONE Thing that I have found to work on troublesome cases such as yours. Simply practice tough love. Let her fall flat on her face, it will hurt, it will hurt like HELL to watch but, eventually she will pick herself up. I know it works, been there, done that myself.

[yardwork]

28. I think that you are probably right about this.

[datasuspect]

3. dunno, some people are cut out for work, but not cut out for jobs

it really requires focus to strike out on your own and cut loose from the corporate tit.

is she less of a person because she doesn't want a steady job and health insurance? absolutely not. she might be a free spirit. but this comes with a hefty price. usually the scorn and derision of one's peers and family.

i don't know her, but i have faith in her.

she might need to determine what it is that truly moves her and pursue this with passion at whatever cost. it might bump her up a little and she might even end up making more money than your whole family combined.

[madeline_con]

10. She's leeching off those around her.

Harsh but true. That's not a "free spirit", but an expensive one. She needs to pull her own weight.

[datasuspect]

11. i can see that part

it's up to the people who continue to enable to withdraw the funds though.

this can provide a jarring enough shock into reality for anyone to do an about face or end up homeless.

but i can see threads in the OP's account that color the one sided view of this person (obviously we don't have her account) in shades of free spiritedness.

could it be marked with dependency issues? sure. some other type of personality disorder? why not. but strict adherence to authority and conformity come with their own baggage. we can pathologize people all day long and eventually they will come up with a pill for it.

but the almost unanimous view expressed in this thread that a nonconformist is somehow mentally ill is troubling.

and like i said, i can't really state too much, because i don't have both sides of the story.

but there is blame to be shared. if it poses this much of a problem, you simply cut the person off and leave them to their own devices.

the problem in dysfunctional relationships is that there are positive and negative payoffs for both sides, especially where family issues are involved.

but me trying to divine some sense out of this in a public message board does a disservice to both the OP and their sibling, so i will withdraw from this conversation.

[madeline_con]

12. Point taken. Sure...

I can see what you mean. It would be an extreme shock, I'd imagine, for her to wake up and realize the purse strings have been cinched tight.

It was for me when I was in my mid 20's and Dad cut of the bail-outs. He mentioned it was car insurance, power bill, something all the time.

Maybe this hits close to home. :blush:

[datasuspect]

13. i never had any backup

i actually had to suffer the consequences of my misdeeds and poor behavior.

but i imagine it would be easier to make poor choices if you know you have an ace in the hole somewhere or cash forthcoming from some source.

[madeline_con]

16. Yep, you could do a sight more f-ing up. n/t

[yardwork]

29. I've never thought less of her for being a free spirit - I'm a bit of one myself.

I used to defend her to our parents, but she has never once supported herself for more than a month or two at a time. Her expenses always exceed her income - always. And my parents, now just my mother, always bail her out.

She has started many businesses, all of which she quit as soon as she lost interest, usually in just a few months. She has had many jobs, all of which she quit within a few months or at most a year or two. She makes and loses friends in rapid succession.

I imagine that her annual expenses are probably more than $50,000 per year, and her income is always approximately half that, at the most. The rest is made up by my mother. We are not wealthy people. My mom is draining her retirement accounts to support my sister's chosen lifestyle.

I have no idea how my sister intends to support herself when she is older.

[yellowcanine]

4. She sounds seriously depressed and/or mentally ill. Medication would probably help.

[yardwork]

30. It did help, during the year when she was in therapy.

My sister finally went to see someone at the county mental health department a few years ago, and they put her on meds and insisted that she come in for regular therapy. This was after years of absolutely refusing to consider getting any kind of help.

She resisted the therapy but eventually did go for a few sessions. Shortly afterward, she moved out on her own and got the first regular job she'd had in more than a decade. She seemed stable and happy for about a year. Then she quit going to therapy, quit the meds on her own, and spiraled back down. She started spending irresponsibly again and then abruptly quit her job, leaving her where she is now.

I've sent her information about mental health resources in her area but she gets very angry when I suggest that she get help. I've offered to pay but she refuses to go.

[BlueIris]

5. Woah.

I'm sorry; that sounds really rough. Yeesh. No advice, really, except that I hope someone (not you) manages to nudge her into some serious therapy. Soon.

[yardwork]

32. Thank you. I appreciate your kind post.

[mtnester]

6. Although this is your sister, it sounds exactly like my

manic depressive bi polar sister.

Meds..but you already know that..and the only person who can get the meds is your sister, who will deny to the heavens anything is medically wrong with her.

One question for you...according to her,. does she believe, or has ever indicated, that she was being targeted, for anything, by someone else? I.E. everyone/someone eventually sabotages her workplace/living environment/love life/etc...if so, definitely a mental health issue.

Have you ever thought this may be the case?

[yardwork]

33. Yes, she can be paranoid. I've considered bi-polar. Always BPD.

I've read books on borderline personality disorder and I'd say that she definitely has all the traits. She may be bi-polar as well.

[mtnester]

49. For those of us who have loved ones who suffer from these and other

mental illnesses, it is a long, patient road that really never ends

[CharmCity]

7. Consider this...

I completely agree with the tough love approach -- I've been there too with my spouse, and as soon as I stopped putting money in the joint account, he got a job and straightened up.

But beyond that: you can't control her. You also can't control your mother. But you can control how you feel about her and her situation. You need to detach. It's not easy. But your approach to this point has not worked, so you should try a different approach.

[yardwork]

34. You're right, and my long-time therapist agrees!

[Skittles]

8. did she suffer abuse sometime in her life?

sure sounds like it.....she needs psychiatric help

[BlueIris]

17. Posts Skittles, 'cause I didn't have the guts to.

[Skittles]

18. it seems obvious to me there was some abuse

that gal lost her way some time ago - she needs help

[yardwork]

35. Emotional abuse. Our father was a severe alcoholic.

However, many members of my extended family have issues with depression and anxiety, including traits of borderline personality disorder, in my opinion. In my sister's case, I think she got the double-whammy of genetic predisposition and neglectful family life that allowed the problem to bloom.

[madeline_con]

9. Can your mother afford to bail her out all the time?

She should sell the horses, get a job and a small place, and move on.
I agree that she may have mental issues. :(

[yardwork]

36. My mom can - just barely - afford to do this for the time being.

My real worry is the future. What happens as my sister ages. She's in her mid-forties now. What happens when (not if) she has a serious health problem? What happens when she can't work anymore? In fact, she's already finding it harder and harder to find work. Her inconsistent employment record work against her, especially in this economy.

Life is harsh, and my sister has outgrown the "cute and cuddly" phase where people will take a chance on her.

[Arugula Latte]

14. I have a relative (by marriage) who sounds similar, down to the four horses that aren't ridden.

He doesn't move around though. He stays put and seems to get by on the kindness of family.

He is in his late 50s and will never change, as far as I can tell. I think he needs serious therapeutic and medical help, but no on on that side of the family can figure out how to get him to see that.

[yardwork]

37. Sounds familiar.

[midnight armadillo]

15. She's got plenty of food, don't worry.

She sounds like she leads a miserable life. Sounds like she either needs psychiatric help or to stop getting bailed out by your mother.

At some point you may have to decide if you need such a toxic presence in your life. I've been there, there's very good reasons why my mother has never met my younger son.

And by food I'm referring to the horses.

[yardwork]

38. LOL! I told her yesterday that it sounded like time to sell a horse.

I'm about out of sympathy for her.

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. This describes to a T some of the other bipolar folks I have known. I would

see about getting her evaluated for mental illness, just in case.

[Hobarticus]

25. BINGO...bipolar disorder, all the way...

No doubt, she's likely highly intelligent and charming....until she can't finangle her way out of a jam anymore.

Dated a bipolar...eay to love, hard to leave, but inevitably not a good person to be around, unless they aggressively seek help.

[yardwork]

39. See my post above - she went to therapy for a while, then quit.

Throughout most of her life it has been obvious to me that she needed mental health therapy, but she absolutely refuses to even talk about. She gets hysterical if one brings it up.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. damn. I thought I sucked.

:D

but, really ---she is sucking BAD. Maybe Dr. Phil would put her up in that house of his?

Sorry, really...this is beyond my scope. if everyone on here is honest, it is beyond their scope as well.

She seems in need of some intensive counseling. Perhaps the whole family could benefit from some form of therapy.

Good luck to you.

[yardwork]

40. Good point about family therapy. I've been seeing a psychiatrist for seven years.

My therapist has helped me enormously. My sister clearly needs help but refuses it. I've suggested the same to my mom, who likewise refuses help (stubbornness runs in the family).

I'm going to mention again to my mom that she would benefit from someone to talk with - this must be hell for her to watch her daughter doing this.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

21. Sister or not, you need to get her out of your life...

I would cut off all communication with her...

You're enabling her...

But it's harmful to her...

I'd run away from her as fast as I could...

(Not literally, of course...)

Tough love is what's needed here...

Can you provide it?


Take care of yourself...

[yardwork]

41. Peggy, those are strong words, and I know how kind you are, so I'll listen.

My partner and therapist have been talking me out of sending more money to my sister. You are taking things a step further. I need to face the fact that anything I do to enable her actually hurts her.

[TrogL]

22. Walk away

She isn't going to hit bottom as long as people are enabling her.

[BlueJazz]

23. She needs professional help. I'm not sure "Tough Love" is the best thing to do.

If it were my Sister, I would work a deal with my Mother and tell my Sister....

"We are going to help you but the catch is this...You are going to see a professional about your actions and quite frankly it's a good deal...We pay ,,,you get help. Period."

[yardwork]

43. I've suggested this many times to my mom, but I can't control her either.

[FloridaJudy]

24. I think your sister has serious mental health problems

She sounds just like a member of my family who is bi-polar. Unfortunately, she probably won't get help until forced to the wall. As long as your mother keeps supporting her unreasonable life-style, I don't see much hope that your sister will change.

Perhaps making your sister deal with the consequences of her behavior would convince her to get professional help. Nobody in my family ever had the courage to do so for my relative, alas. He's now almost ninety - so chances he'll ever become self-supporting are nil - and still a huge drain, both financially and emotionally. Your sister is still young enough to change, but I wouldn't delay cutting her off financially. Believe me, this can only get worse.

In the meantime, here's a hug. :hug:

[yardwork]

44. Thank you for the hug. I think you are probably right.

[Maraya1969]

26. Sounds to me like she needs some tough love. Let her lose some

things and she'll learn to be responsible....hopefully.

[skygazer]

31. There are some really strange responses on this thread

There are people who are quite sure this woman is mentally ill and people who are quick to say dump her like a hot rock.

No wonder we have so many people living on the streets.

There are plenty of irresponsible people who need a dose of tough love and maybe she is one of them. I wonder how quick people would be to drop her if she were their family, though.

There are also people who may or may not be mentally ill - in the case of my aunt, I'm really not sure (and there are people for whom medication isn't going to do a darn thing) - who will never be responsible for themselves. They're not capable for whatever reason. She's not. My family tried the tough love bit and the woman wound up in horrible straits. What do you do then? Just leave her? This guy's sister is in her 40's - it's not like she's a kid who needs to grow up.

There are times, you know, that there's not a solution. Not just "not an easy solution" but no solution at all. Some things you can't fix. Personally, I'd rather shell out some money for my nutty aunt now and then than live with the guilt I'd feel if I left her to wander around the streets with nothing.

[yardwork]

45. I can see the point of every post on this thread, really.

My sister may fit the definitions of being "mentally ill" but she is not incapable or working or taking care of the things she wants. She takes care of her horses and other pets, for instance. She functions on a day-to-day basis.

She has issues, no question. Lots of us have issues. I had serious depression and anxiety, but I have done a lot of things to help myself. I'm self-sufficient and always have been, because I won't allow myself to be a mooch.

My sister doesn't mind being a mooch. So in that respect, "tough love" might actually help.

[Felix Mala]

42. Lifetime of it here. My sister is 52 and still moving in with mom with

pets, bills, problems... It happens every few years or so.

She's hardly appreciative. In fact, she mettles in everyone's lives. She can't tell the truth and she can't be trusted with anything requiring responsibility.

I never tell her anything about my business. I'm cordial and keep her at arm's length. She'll destroy my mother who is 77, but mom's the one who's going to have to stand up to her.

Right now, she has a giant old dog that is constantly bleeding from ulcers on its skin. Blood is all over the house, the carpets, the furniture. She's not "ready" to put the dog down yet, even when we offered to pay.

[yardwork]

46. Yes, that all sounds very familiar.

I think that your solution - to be cordial and keep her at arm's length - is the right one.

I made the mistake of telling my sister that I had gotten a promotion at work. She responded by promptly quitting her job. She asked me for money and I sent some, but no more.

I've got two teenage boys who need to go to college soon. I can't throw money into someone else's chosen irresponsible lifestyle. For one thing, I need to make sure that my boys don't grow up with similar problems.

[Mad_Dem_X]

47. Damn, sounds a lot like my aunt

My mother's sister is sooo much like that. Right now, tho', she's pretty much cut herself off from the whole family, but my mother and other family members have bailed her out of jams in the past. You have my sympathy.

[Coyote_Bandit]

48. Maybe I'm wrong

but you seem to assume that intelligence and a good education are a basis on which to build a career and be self-sufficient. If so, you'd be wrong, IMHO. What is required is some skill and somebody who believes in you and is willing to invest in acquiring your goods and services - whether that person is an employer or a customer.

Based on what you have said it would appear that the financial contributions to support your sister's lifestyle my be the only form of investment anyone is really making in her. There do not appear to be any significant relationships in her life. She probably has completely given up pursuing a caereer in the field in which she is trained and she feels like a failure. After all, there really are not a whole lot of folks that invest that much time an effort into formal education that do not have aspirations of being able to utilize their training in their careers. Apparently both you and your mother view sis as being impaired. While she may be impaired she needs to know that there are people who believe she is capable of recovery.

Obviously, your sister needs help. Perhaps she would be more willing to accept career assistance from a counselor trained to treat other co-existing issues. In any event, she will not accept help until she recognizes she has a problem and determines to accept help offered. She has to recognize not only that she has a problem but that her own dysfunction contributes to that problem. And you should recognize that this kind of dysfunction does not exist in isolation. It probably would not be a bad idea for mom to get some counseling as well. Your sister's dependence on financial support from others is nothing more than a symptom of some relationship dysfuntion between her and those who contribute to her upkeep, IMHO.

I might suggest the use of a trust fund to regulate distribution of funds. You don't have to have a bazillion dollars to effectively use a trust. Mom could conveniently do some estate planning and have a trust put in place without making sis feel like she is being targeted and cut out. Mom could then contribute funds to the trust and shift the responsibility for distribution of funds to trustees she designates and for purposes she designates.

If you do what you've always done you will get what you've always got. That is as true for you as it is for your sister and your mother. You seem more than willing to point blame at your sister without acknowledging your own contrbutions to the dysfunction that exists. You do not have to enable your sister's dysfuntion and I'm sure your own counselor would be willing to assist you in determining how to do so.

I don't mean to be harsh. It's just my take on the situation. Tere really are no easy quick solutions.