Any contractors or construction people here?

[ThomCat]

I need grab bars installed in my bathroom. The wall in my shower has nothing but sheetrock behind it, so it wouldn't hold my weight if a bar is installed. The wall apparently needs to be opened, have supports added, have the sheetrock and tiles put back up, and then have the bar mounted.

I live in an apartment and the building manager is insisting that I'd have to pay for all of this. I don't know the scope, complexity or cost of this type of job. I'd really appreciate a clue.

I haven't been able to track down any agency that know for sure what the building's responsibilities are in terms of necessary structural modifications. I don't know if this is really all my responsibility or if I'll be able to force them to cover it. So if you have any clue about this, I'd appreciate hearing that too.

Btw: I've already spoken to a Social Worker, the local Independent Living Center, and the local Senior Services Center that often coordinates this type of work if you own your home.

[unpossibles]

1. I don't know the cost or legal issues

but it is true you'd need some sort of backer behind the sheetrock to hold your weight securely.

I would perhaps contact a local renters group or real estate law to see what your rights/responsibilities are.

[ThomCat]

2. If I can find a group that can help or advise, I definitely will.

Right now I seem to be spinning my wheels calling agencies that would love to be able to help me but can't. :(

[unpossibles]

20. that sucks.

I hope you find something, and if not, you may be able to find someone willing to do the work cheaply.

If I lived closer, I'd help out.

[ThomCat]

24. I appreciate that.

:)

You're right. It's time to start calling contractors in addition to agencies.

[unpossibles]

28. don't forget to ask friends/relatives for recommendations

for quality of work, but also for time factor and cost. And you never know - someone may be willing to help you out and give you a discount or maybe have a "rent party" where you throw a party and essentially ask for donations/help.

[AnneD]

3. I'd call your city.....

building codes inspectors office. They would know. An attorney might know-like an ACLU type attorney.

[Gonzo Gardener]

4. Here ya go...

and the best of luck to you, Thom! :hi:

NYC Legal Aid - NYC Rent Guidelines Board:

http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/legal2.html

edited to add: There is a whole section on disabilities and your rights. Scroll down to 'Disabilities' in the list on the left hand side of the home page.

Learn about special housing laws for people with disabilities by visiting the Mayor's Office for People with Disabilities homepage. Note: You will be leaving the housingnyc.com website.

Mayor's Office for People with Disabilities

Learn about the DRIE (Disabled Rent Increase Exemption) Program. Similar to SCRIE, if eligible, it can freeze your rent if you are disabled. Note: You will be leaving the housingnyc.com website.

Disability Rent Increase Exemption (DRIE) Program

A new website lists available housing throughout New York State for people with disabilities. Note: You will be leaving the housingnyc.com website.

New York State Accessible Housing Registry

[ThomCat]

9. Thank you very much.

:)

They have a link to another site just about the rights of tenants with disabilities.

[Gonzo Gardener]

32. Ultimately...

the burden of construction costs may lie with you, but there has to be an organization in your area that could help with the expense or do the work for free. If I was a little more familiar with your situation I could offer some specific suggestions... PM me if you prefer. ;)

Off the top of my head... if, you can't afford the alterations, would you consider approaching the landlord to ask that he pay the costs up front and then allow you to pay it back through a slight increase in monthly rent? If you're keeping the place up and are a good tenant he/she might do this for you. :shrug:

[ThomCat]

35. Unfortunately, the building manager took a hostile approach.

I have to pay for everything, they have nothing to do with it, and I'm responsible for everything that goes wrong. etc.

I doubt they're going to work with me on this. It really does look like a totally out of pocket expense. :(

Once I get the cost estimates though, I'll have to ask.

[Gonzo Gardener]

40. I read down thread...

The advocate or a social worker at the Independent Living Center might be able to point you in the direction of an organization that could help you with this issue.

:hug:

[ThomCat]

5. Shit. The latest agency I spoke too

is a tenant's rights agency. They say that "reasonable accomodation" as required by law only means that they have to allow modification of the bathroom. I would have to pay for 100% of the construction. :(

That is so not going to be possible.

[IndianaJones]

6. are you sure there are no studs? nt.

[ThomCat]

10. According to the super, that wall is just sheetrock.

So, yes, I'm pretty sure. If this was a simple project he would have installed the bars for me without having to go to the building manager.

[IndianaJones]

12. what is on the other side of the wall from the shower? nt.

[ThomCat]

14. Another half bathroom.

It seems to be two sheetrock walls with a small gap between them.

[IndianaJones]

17. are the walls tiled? the one on the other side that is. nt.

[ThomCat]

19. Yes, both walls are tiled up to about 5 feet.

[IndianaJones]

21. can you get your hands on a stud finder? I am almost certain there are studs...

on 16" centers. Then it is a very simple job.

[BrotherBuzz]

44. Ah! A clever person could open the wall above the tiles to...

insert support material (3/4 inch ply) down behind the tile and hold it in place with panel adhesive until fasteners are sent through the tile to hold the handrails. Re-rocking that entire strip above the tiles sure beats tearing the whole thing out in my humble mind.

[seemunkee]

7. There has to be studs somewhere

Who told you there is nothing behind the sheetrock?
Finding them behind tile might be difficult. I would guess it is an older building and the studs would be on 16" centers.

[ThomCat]

13. The building super is the one who told me.

He found out because I leaned on the soup dish too hard a few years ago and broke off, taking a bunch of tiles with it and opening a huge gap in the wall. He had to repair that hole and got a good look inside.

I thought that there MUST be studs back there. I have never heard of any wall that doesn't have studs at least once ever 18 inches, even in older buildings. But the only way for me to prove the super wrong is to pay to have someone take down the tiles and open the wall anyway. :(

[Mutley]

8. Is there anything in the ADA you can cite to him?

http://www.ada.gov/pubs/ada.htm

It doesn't seem right to me that all of the cost incurred from that project should fall on your shoulders.

[ThomCat]

16. I'm meeting with the Independent Living Center to go over that.

I used to know the provisions of the ADA. I helped raise hell for it back in the late 80s, and for enforcement of it in the early 90s. But that was a long time ago.

The professional advocate I spoke to on the phone says that he doesn't know of any right to get modifications made by the building. At best, he thinks they have to allow me to get modifications if I pay for them.

[flvegan]

11. How about bringing the bar down from the ceiling?

Won't look terribly nice, but it'll hold you, be a minimal expense and easy to remove if/when you move out.

[ThomCat]

18. I had not thought of that.

I'll have to ask the super about that, and figure out where to buy something like that if it's possible.

I definitely need to talk to a contractor. I'm definitely going to need to bring in a professional.

[LeftyFingerPop]

15. Thom...

There are most certainly studs behind the sheetrock, and any qualified contractor has a variety of means to find them.

It should not be a big issue at all for a contractor to find the studs and attach the bar directly to them. I would imagine that there is some kind of flange on the end if each bar with holes in it that would be fastened directly into the wooden stud.

There has to currently be supporting members behind the sheetrock that will accommodate the fasteners and hold your weight.

Do not let anyone convince you that major structural renovations will be necessary for a project such as this. Even if you have some sort of unusual set-up there, a creative contractor should be able to easily overcome it. JMO. Good luck.

[ThomCat]

22. Thank you! I really hope that's right.

I would love to have a contractor come in and brush this all aside as a minor issue. Talking to the building it seems like it's turning into a huge gordian knot, and I don't have a sword handy. :)

[skygazer]

26. I agree that there have to be studs

Drywall comes in 4' x 8' sheets - if there are no studs, what the hell is the drywall attached to?

[Mutley]

30. I'd say of course your super is going to make this all seem more difficult

than it may really be. This whole thing would be a major pain in the ass for him, and he could be trying to discourage you from even attempting it. Don't let his bad attitude get you down. Can the organization you've been working with recommend a contractor who may have experience with this sort of construction?

[ThomCat]

31. I'll find out tomorrow if the Senior Services Center can

recommend a contractor. I've been referred to the director to make sure we get this right because it's a rental property. :)

[LeftyFingerPop]

34. My thinking is that....

Unless your bathroom was just scabbed together when it was built, which I highly doubt due to stringent building codes in your state, all the support you will ever need is behind that wall.

Experienced contractors just hold their ear up to the wall and pound it with the handle of a hammer to tell where the framing members are. They are normally located every 16 inches. Sometimes, it becomes more difficult than that, especially when there is tile and mortar over the sheet rock. In that case, the contractor would merely use a density sensitive electronic stud finder.

If things are really dodgy behind that wall, which is possible but not probable, all kinds of things can be done. For example, as another poster mentioned, coming down from the ceiling.

Remember, there is always a way to do something. They make all kinds of grab bars, and supports can even be fabricated depending on your situation.

Don't worry, stuff like this is done everyday...you just need a good contractor.

[ThomCat]

37. :)

This kind of reassurance is good to here. I did some construction work when I was a kid. What country boy didn't? But I never worked as a contractor, and I certainly never dealt with city building codes.

I'm going to talk to more people about this in the next few days, and hopefully this will be more simple than I thought.

[unpossibles]

25. I was thinking the same thing

the sheetrock needs to be attached to something! And a couple of holes in a tile wall is not that hard to patch, so should not break the bank, although at NYC prices I don't know.

[Blue Diadem]

23. They do make bars with a special flange that will fit easier on the studs.

That way no modification is needed.

Here's a link:

http://www.independentforlife.com/p-118-ba8011-easy-mount-grab-bars.aspx

[ThomCat]

27. That's awesome. So I know the materials are affordable.

It's just going to be the labor that will be expensive.

[Blue Diadem]

39. Maybe not too bad for labor.

All they need is a good stud sensor to find the studs. They should be 16" on center, although if it's an older building sometimes you get surprises. With that flange it should be relatively simple to drill the holes and screw them in. The other flanges have 3 holes, only 1 screw will line up on the stud. That one has 9 holes so you can get more screws into the stud.

[DS1]

29. Throw a do-it-yourself party

surely there's some handy DUers within a 50 mile range who could show up, bang out the work if you cough up the supplies, and then rock out with your caulks out

:)


edit for caulks, can't believe I missed that

[ThomCat]

33. That would be awesome! If anyone here at DU can, and voluteers

I'll definitely pay for supplies and a party to celebrate and say thanks. :)

[DS1]

36. Zornhau (I think that's his new name) but we'll call him Zornfist for now

and LynzM recently, if I'm correct, ripped out and redid their entire bathroom. And they live somewhere in CT.


not to drop too many names, of course

[ThomCat]

38. They're 4 hours away by mass transit.

I know, because I've been up there, and I'm going up there again soon. :)

[ThomCat]

41. Thank you, everyone! You're awesome!

When you're one person calling around and getting a runaround this stuff gets very frustrating. A few minutes here, and things calm down and look reasonable again. :grouphug:

[trof]

42. Portable, telescoping, suction cup grab bar

If you have tile, this should work.

http://www.cwimedical.com/suction-grab-bar.html
A google search shows several suppliers.

[ThomCat]

43. I have been trying those first. They will not stick to the tiles.

They'll stick to the tub, so if I'm sitting in the tub taking a bath I can use them. But they don't stick to tiles over the tub for more than a minute before they fall off. :(

I've been told that if I had a fiberglass shell shower then they would work on the wall.