Does anyone else find "The Lion King" offensive

[JVS]

I was watching it last night and it filled me with rage.

Elaborations would be appreciated

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. I find it artistically offensive

I was so angry at that movie for having stupid, porrly written dialogue, idiotic music, and a trite pedantic story line. I refuse to ever see it again, it was so god-awful.

But I don't think it was racially offensive or whatever ind of offensive it is you are alluding to. Not to say it might not be - I was so busy being appalled at the utter lack of artistry, that's all I could focus on.

Hakuna matata, baby.

[Gadave]

2. I am against any movie that

Protrays animals in an unrealistic way. Lions need to eat.

I think it gives people a skewed view of nature, since we don't live on farms anymore.

[Lorien]

34. Mufasa points out to Simba

"We eat the gazelle, we die and become part of the earth, the earth feeds the grass which feeds the gazelle-we are all a part of the circle of life".

[Breezy du Nord]

36. Great, now you got that song in my head!

I hate when that happens!

[jmowreader]

75. A better version of that song, from South Park

Everything that lives on earth poos in some way
And thats how the cycle happens each and everyday
Just look at the green green grass and the birds up in the sky
Its all here because of poo and now ill tell you why

Grass is eaten by the cattle
Which is eaten by women and men
Defuses with their body, and becomes poo again
And that poo goes through the sewer
which is tucked into the sea
and its eaten by the plankton which becomes the fishes me
We got bigger fish with the poo still inside
Swims up near the shore and gets eaten alive
By a grizzly bear that poos on a dead piece of sand
So that it can spring to the life and become poo for the land!

Its the poo of the antelope, the poo of the giraffe
Which crawls up to the earth, and becomes the blades of grass
The grass is eaten by the cattle, which comes out the other end
To make poo for the humans, and start all over again.

Mr: Hankey You see son? Youre not an insignificate part of life! You are life!
Cornwallis: But how can I be that blade of grass? Or a human? I dont control what they do
Mr. Hankey: Just like your heart beats without u thinking about it. So do your giraffes and humans do what they do. Without you even thinking about it! But it is all one life form. It is all you.
Cornwallis: I think I see now (deep singing voice) Im the poo of the antelope, that flows onto the ground
Mr. Hankey: Which becomes the grass of tomorrow
Cornwallis: Yea
Mr. Hankey: Which the critters turn around
Cornwallis: And I'm the leg of a leopard. And the wings of a hen.
Both: Which becomes the inner part of humans, and turn back to poo again. Thats the circle, the circle of poooooooooooo.

[joeybee12]

3. It doesn't fill me with rage, but I see your point--obviously made by

people who know nothing about animals.

They originally titled the movie, The King of the Jungle, but then someone realized that--hey, lions don't live in jungles!!!

[Lorien]

27. Bullshit

I worked on character design for that film, and 600 of my friends on co-workers made it. We studied Lions, hyenas, wildebeests, meerkats warthogs, etc. for a full year. Live animals were brought into the studio, anatomical studies were done, experts were brought in (Jim Fowler was a regular at our studio). Our lives were nothing but African wildlife for a good long time. I still keep in touch with the director of Fellow Earthlings, America's only Meerkat center (as seen on National Geographic).

Yes, the original title was "Kimba, king of the Jungle"-but that entire treatment was scraped and nothing of it remains in the final production (the title was chosen by the suits, not the artists). As for a lack of realism; it's entertainment-not a documentory. Animals were designed to be drawn thousands of times over (24 frames per second-it's A LOT of drawing) My original concepts for young Simba were much more realistic; with faded spots and all the proper markings for a young cub, but one must take the extra hours invoved for each element into account (each drawing of Simba in the film took between 30 minutes- 1 1/2 hours as it is).

Looking now and the 50+ books on African wildlife that still remain in my personal library ( everything from Fayner's "the African Safari" to a full suite of Walker's "Mammals of the world") I can't help but take offense at your first comment.

[Bertha Venation]

37. Bravo.

Well said. (I love posts entitled "bullshit" anyway. ;))

[texastoast]

58. Loved it!

Saw it innumerable times with my four-year-old (at the time).

Once, we were driving on the freeway headed home one evening during a particularly brilliant sunset. My son said, "Look! The Lion King sky!"

You sure impressed him artistically (me too!).

[Lorien]

76. Cool!

I'll have to pass that along to the color styling/ background department artists (what few there are left at the studios). Saying that a sunset creates a "Maxfeild Parrish sky" has long been a favorite comparison; it would thrill a few of those artists to know that a similar comparison was made with their work!

[JVS]

4. What made me mad was the sense of entitlement that Simba had

and the social darwinistic "natural order" shit that kept cropping up.

Also the fact that the villian, scar, is gay/english, homophobic/xenophobic depending on how you read him

[Gadave]

9. And of course...

Hyenias are bad cause they are ugly. In the wild Lions are mainly kill thieves.

Why so many Dems like Disney is beyond me. They are some of the biggest propagationists of cultural myths. The good guys are always good looking. The depraved are almost always ugly.

(wait rubber band man commercial is on)

Ok. Also, they make finding a man the highest goal for a young a girl. Its a bunch of tripe.

[Bombero1956]

70. wait

In Beauty and the Beast, the handsome Gaston is evil and the ugly beast is basically good, so that doesn't apply to all their movies.

[Nikia]

19. I think that is actually a pretty common theme

I am trying to think of some good examples right now of the exiled prince who returns to take his rightful place as king, battling the evil usurper. It is a historical theme though in literature.

[JVS]

26. I speak more of the bratty "I'm gonna be king" stuff

including the brutalization of that bird guy

[youngred]

64. consider the audience

:eyes:

young simba has learning to do, and does mature past that

[Breezy du Nord]

32. Maybe I missed something, but...

I never saw much of Scar being anything but the evil guy.

For cripes' sakes, it's a kid's movie! The characters are supposed to be one-dimensional, either good or evil, there's not inbetween for.

Of course, you might be right and Scar could be a big-flaming homophobe, I was only in kindergarten when I first watched tht moive, so it could've just flew over my head at the time.

[JVS]

33. Scar is affected in the Frasier/Niles Craine manner

[Breezy du Nord]

55. What do you mean?

nt

[Lorien]

50. Andreas Deja, who designed and animated Scar

is a gay German man and certainly no homophobe, xenophobe, or rascist (as per another post)! I've known him for 15 years, and he's a good liberal like the rest of us. Scar was voiced by Jeremy Irons, who is neither homophobic, xenophobic, or rascist. Scar was painted a deep red because of the psycological associations westerners have with red tones (power, anger, etc.) his mane was black because it showed up well against the brick tone of his coat, and because many African lions have black manes, and we wanted to show that (they are extremely handsome animals). Scar had a scar to show that he wasn't the Alpha Male of the group (as per another post, again) and to indicate that he had been involved in past conflicts (important for the dynamic between he and his brother). James Earl Jones, who voiced his brother Mufasa, certainly didn't see a rascist slant to anything in the film-he loved it, in fact. Neither did the scores of other African American voices, artists, designers, managers, etc. that worked on the film.

Sometimes a cartoon is just a cartoon. Not everything is a political statement.

[Lorien]

51. One more thing

Andreas has always fought for workers rights/ artists rights and unions against corporate HQ, often putting his job in jeopardy.It's just one of the reasons I'll always have great respect for the man.

[NightTrain]

52. Thank you, Jen6!

As much as I despise right-wingers, I also have little patience for liberals who feel the need to politicize everything. Christ, that can be annoying!

[Kellanved]

53. Wow

Thanks for the insight :yourock:

[Dark Star]

5. Has anyone seen

"Lady and the Tramp"? The original from years and years ago.

I couldn't believe it when I watched it recently. I just couldn't believe it.

[joeybee12]

8. I only recall the spaghetti eating scene--so I can't comment!

[Dark Star]

10. That's what I was thinking about

when I decided to watch it again; actually, our cocker spaniel decided for us.

Anyway, it is sooooooooooooooo racist that it absolutely blew me away. I had no memory of it being that way. Basically, I remembered it fondly and only recalled the spaghetti love scene, but it is just filled with despicable stereotypes. It literally made me ill and we turned it off before it ended.

[joeybee12]

12. Well, I guess I'll stick to the Simpsons version!

Did you see the episode where Santa's little helper meets his love--they actually do more of a take-off on 101 Dalmations, but Santa's and his love eat spaghetti, and when they get to the end of the strong and their eyes meet--they start growling and fighting over whose it is!!!!

[Dark Star]

43. Okay, I'm ducking now:

don't watch the Simpsons. (sorry)

But I love the way you describe the scene ... everyone talks about it; I should check it out.

[Breezy du Nord]

60. How is it racist?

I never saw it, but I'm curious, how is Lady and the Tramp racist?

[Nay]

6. I hated that movie.

To the point of teeth-gnashing rage. Some points I can remember:

1. The female lions had ABSOLUTELY NO influence over anything. They were hand-wringing idiots.

2. The bad male lion has a SCAR and is much DARKER than the good lion.

3. The monkey with the black accent. jeez, talk about stereotypes!!

4. Until a good, royal, male lion gets old enough to rule, everything goes to hell.

I haven't seen this movie since it came out, so I hope I've gotten the points correct. I do remember the seething rage I was filled with after seeing it. And truly, I expected to see a good kid's movie when I went to see it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. Bingo

"Until a good, royal, male lion gets old enough to rule, everything goes to hell."

An ode to submission and the inherent goodness of the caste system, which of course doesn't exist, you're only prey because you don't work hard enough so stop saying that!

[Breezy du Nord]

39. Lionesses don't have hands

:P Sorry, I'm just being an ass.

And you're right, I think it was somewhat unrealistic view, since it is the lioness who does the hunting and everything.

Really, I don't think most children saw any of the things you pointed out. I remember being the target audience of that movie when it came out and me and my friends just liked to sing along with the music.

Hakuna matata, it's just a movie!

[Breezy du Nord]

57. Also, How is a monkey having a black accent stereotypical?

It's just a movie, not a political statement!

[texastoast]

62. Seething rage?

Geez. Don't ever watch Roots. Now that pissed me off.

[Breezy du Nord]

63. Why?

:shrug:

[texastoast]

68. Check it out

Now that whole story is something to be enraged about.

[Breezy du Nord]

69. I still don't see what you mean.

When you say you're enraged, do you mean about the general mistreatment of African-Americans over generations, or are you mad about how the miniseries itself was made?

I have seen most of it, we watched it in my social studies class. Are saying the story is inaccurate?

[youngred]

67. some points

The Scar thign was adressed above by someone who actually worked on the film, and puts your points about that to rest.

Rafiki (the monkey) is cast in the traditional Medicine Man Role, and I find it kind of silly that he's the only one with a remotely African accent...considering its set in Africa. Further for the play version Rafiki is made into a woman, and gives women more power.

The Female Lions probably should have had more power (and do yield more power in real life), but that screws with the Plot of SImba vs. Scar. You have to show a reason WHY Simba HAS to come back.

[DivinBreuvage]

77. You clearly didn't pay too much attention.

1. You seem not to have noticed that Serabi stood up to Scar, and the female lions attacked the hyenas. Where do you get the "hand-wringing idiots" from?

2. So? Napoleon and Hitler were darker than some. Idi Amin and Charles Taylor are a lot darker than lots of people. Yes, even some non-white people can be bad.

3. The baboon was voiced by Robert Guillaume. Have you ever seen Robert Guillaume?

4. Scar was also a royal male lion. Surely you're not saying that goodness is a disqualification for a leader, male or otherwise.

[barbaraann]

7. I don't like a lot of Disney stuff.

Some food for thought, in light of the evil running rampant in our country right now:

http://www.geocities.com/lord_visionary/the_disney_bloodlinept1.htm

[Breezy du Nord]

56. Hey, I read that book!

nt

[Democrats unite]

11. It's a frigging Disney Film

Some people here need a vacation!

[Melsky]

20. So?

Disney films are watched by billions of children worldwide. A lot of kids have the videos or dvds, and watch them over and over again. So we shouldn't care what goes on in them? I think it's very important.

Personally, I have a deep dislike of Disney. I won't go to disneyland or watch most disney films. I don't like their corporate attitude.

I have to admit, I saw Holes, dispite the fact it was a disney film. I loved it!

[Democrats unite]

30. You just answered your own question.

[citizen snips]

13. It is a boring movie

:boring:

[StClone]

14. Animated Movies as a Genre

I avoid movies where no real human face graces the scene for hours at a time. I like actors, real flesh and blood not colorful overly animated caricatures of animals and animate objects. The move to feature length cartoons was done for money reasons and appeal to children. Now it is a favorite theme for larger budget films to appeal to adults and kids. But count me out.

[Gadave]

18. I am like that with music

I think the human voice is the best and worst instrument in music. Leave it out of a song and I hate it. Well, except for may the Planets by whats his face. Mars is an excellent piece.

[Blue-Jay]

65. That would be Gustav Holst

And one of the latter movements does indeed have a female choir. I think it's Neptune, but I'd need to get out the CD to be sure.

On topic: Haven't seen it, but I doubt I'd be offended by it nevertheless.

[onehandle]

21. The Lion King was the first Disney Film...

...that had no Human characters whatsoever. It may be the only one, as far as I can remember.

[Coventina]

38. Bambi

Although the effects of mankind play an important role.

[onehandle]

49. The Hunter. His form was shown. nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

44. Oh, please. Animation created to appeal to children?

I don't agree at all with that sentiment.

I also don't agree with your attitude against animation. Why do some people assume that animation is ipso facto intended for children, and not to be taken seriously by adults?

Jeez o pete.

But I'll defend your right to hold you opinion!

[Bossy Monkey]

15. Theoretically, but I never saw it so can't say for sure n/t

[NWHarkness]

17. I am offended by it's plagiarism

Disney touted it as their first animated film that was not based on another source. That is a bald faced lie.

I am sure some of you remember Tetsuo's Kimba The White Lion cartoons from your youths. The Lion King appropriates the story line of Kimba completely. In fact, the film's Japanese release was held back because Disney knew there would be a firestorm of criticism when it came out there, and they didn't want the rest of the world to get a whiff of it until after the film was a world wide hit.

Many Japanese Amine buffs refer to it as "The Lying King".

[onehandle]

25. The writers claim...

That as they were writing it, they lifted more and more from Hamlet. Eventually, they had to go back and make changes to make it not so obvious.

I'm not discounting the Kimba theory, but if you know Hamlet, you know The Lion King.

[Lorien]

31. Disney paid Tetsuo off

though he keeps the storyboard's from strikingly similar sequences in his office, as a reminder to all those who visit his studio.

[jmm]

41. I always thought it plagiarized Bambi.

If you watch closely they basically tell the same story and have many nearly identical scenes. They just happen to involve different types of animals in different settings.

[Lorien]

48. We intended it to feel like Bambi

(the only other Disney film that doesn't show a human character). Bambi had color styling by a japanese art director, who gave it a soft, intimate feel. "The Lion King" was ment to feel expansive, with coloring that was a bit more natural to it's region (our art, layout, and backgroud directors made a trip to east Africa to do studies on site)so, outside of theme, there were a good many visual contrasts. They are both stories about growing up and finding one's place in the world, so yes, there are many similarities. Personaly, I prefer Bambi because I find it a more consistant film (in both art and tone), but I suppose being involved with "the Lion king" makes me less than objective about it (I resigned from the animation division during that film; it wasn't much of a joy ride for anyone who worked on it).

[pink_poodle]

22. I'm a white Scottish chick, so what do I know. All I can say is..........

if it is offensive to African culture, then someone ought to do something about it because it's been running for ages everywhere!

[onehandle]

29. The Majority of the voices actors were African-American

All of whom are active in Social causes one way or another. Maybe someone should ask them.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. A discussion inspired by this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=703501

[NightTrain]

24. It's only a movie, people! Chill out already.

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. Yeah, and Fox New is just a TV channel. (nt)

[NightTrain]

40. Comparing a Disney film to Pox News. Terrific.

You might as well compare Amos & Andy to Pravda.

[Breezy du Nord]

35. See, now I have to watch it

Because I was only 5 or so when I saw it, so a lot of the "offensiveness" went over my head.

A few yrs later when I was reading "Hamlet" I just kinda thought that "The lIon King" was an animal kingdom-version of that, but I never recalled being offended by it. Hell, why shuld I be offended? I don't give a crap about Disney!

[JVS]

42. The best cinematic Hamlet is Strange Brew

[Rabrrrrrr]

45. Heh heh - I was just thinking that!

eh.

[YNGW]

46. Taking the family to see it on Broadway in March.

neener, neener, neener

[NightTrain]

47. Know what this conversation made me think of?

Those petulant rock critics who became outraged over the U.S. popularity of British synth-pop (a/k/a New Wave) back in the early '80s. Per those sages, the Great Unwashed had no business listening and dancing to such happy, goodtime music while an extreme right-wing administration was busy gutting the political and social gains of the last half-century.

Well, excuse the fuck out of me! I had no idea that Haricut One Hundred, a Flock of Seagulls, and Gary Numan were to blame for Reagan's ascendancy to the White House. Thanks for the enlightenment, rock critics!

Twenty years later, it seems "The Lion King" is the decline of western civilization (and I'm not referring to that punk-rock documentary). Makes me wonder who tomorrow's scapegoat will be....

[Edge]

54. You've got to be kidding me...

IT'S A CARTOON PEOPLE!!!!!!!! :eyes:

Hello....the movie was made 11 years ago...it's time to move on.

[youngred]

59. What is offensive about it?

:shrug:

[Breezy du Nord]

61. Some people think waaay too much.

nt

[Edge]

66. I agree.

:eyes:

[chookie]

71. Gee, I thought I was the only one....

First of all, I didn't like it -- thought it was stupid.

But I remember being struck by some of the themes in it. It was kind of anti-intellectual. Some of the "bad guys" seem to have been based on black gang culture. That sort of thing. I thought it was really creepy in a kids film.

I know some people here are freaking out that people see WAY too much in films and such, "Quit thinking so much!" -- but I would argue that films and such get produced for a reason, and often there is in fact a political agenda of some kind behind the project. Maybe people don't "see it" themselves because they buy into the notions being present -- these matters are invisible to them. I think some of us study how ideas are formed, or have worked in performance or creative arts ourselves, so we *know* that there is often a hidden agenda of some kind. To discuss it, I believe, is quite valid. Claiming it does not exist, I believe, is not valid.

Boy -- I could really ratchet up the indignation here with my political reading of Feifel the Jewish Ghetto Mouse -- or whatever that dumb film was called. It may have been meant to be innocuous, but it sure borrowed on some creepy stuff...but I shall spare all here.

[Breezy du Nord]

72. See, if you're that vulnerable

where a big evil corporation can turn you into their zombie than you probably are watching to much TV or movies anyway.

[chookie]

73. Are you talking about me?

Actually, dear, I am the literary type.

As someone who is a professional in creative arts, I know that my experience of a film, or a painting, or a performance, whatever, is going to be different from a more casual viewer who regards these things as mere entertainment, or escapism.

I also derive my readings of creative work based on my study of propaganda and techniques of mass persuasion, so when I see one of the "tricks" I saw in historical examples, it has a bigger impact on me than it will on someone does not have an interest in how popular ideas are formed and disseminated.

On the other hand, I have had people read all kinds of weird shit into my own work, which leaves me absolutely slack-jawed in amazement as to where the heck people come up with their interpretations. It may not have been my intent, but hey, any person's reading has a validity, and kind of accrues to the work.

[Breezy du Nord]

74. I meant people in general

I suppose if you looked really hard you could see some sort of political agenda or whatever in the Lion King, but then you can also see the word "sex" above Simba's head in one the scenes. I think it was demonstrated by the artist who posted above that the movie really didn't have that many layers to it, simply because it's a kid's movie. It's the Lion King, not Schindler's List.

[arwalden]

78. "Mufasa Mufasa MuFASA! I Hear That Name & I Shudder! It Just TINGLES ME!"

I loved Whoopi Goldberg in that!!

-- Allen