Will we ever return to a time when more people, on average, experience shame?

[Writer]

I have the argumentative view that American society has somewhat pulled away from shame. In other words, hurting other human beings unapologetically has been on the rise. I believe our increased population, our atomized lives, and the general acceptance of winning at all costs has been a few of the major causes of this.

I don't think everyone would agree that less Americans experience shame than, say, thirty years ago, but if you do believe that less people experience shame today, then how do we overcome the causes of this to make America a less callous, more conciliatory society?

Thoughts... feelings... anyone want a beer? :beer:

[Guava Jelly]

1. People are self centered a-holes

I don't believe it will ever change.
And I'll take that beer :D :hi: you!

[Writer]

2. Hey! I have a question for you...

do you think that people are self-centered a-holes more often today than thirty years ago?

:toast:

[Guava Jelly]

5. Probably so

It is such a me me self important cell phone blue tooth society we live in.
30 years ago people probably physically talked more..
And that probably made them less self centered.

[lost-in-nj]

20. Yes

its a me, me, me world.....
sad


lost

[Generic Brad]

3. A shameless relative once gave me the worst apology ever

A few years back one of my relatives really hurt my feelings when she said horrible racist things about my wife and I. I vowed to not speak to her again unless she apologized. Well, three months later my apology came in the mail on a handwritten note. She wrote: "I'm sorry you're such an asshole." To date, I have not accepted her apology.

[Writer]

6. Wow. Talk about absolutely NO sense of shame.

I am sorry that your relative treated you that way...

... and if a relative can treat another relative so cruelly without shame, then how can we expect complete strangers to do the same?

[Skittles]

10. WTF?

f*** the apology, i would have kicked her racist ass to Kansas and back

[Generic Brad]

23. Three years out and I'm still standing my ground

No one bad mouths my wife because of her nationality. For crying out loud - I was accused of being anti-American because I married a foreign national. What the hell does my wife's country of origin have to do with my patriotism?

[Skittles]

25. nothing

it says nothing about you or your wife; says EVERYTHING about THEM. I'm not sure I would even accept an apology from garbage like that.

[SPKrazy]

4. Grow up in my family

shame was a given

I think actually that we are experiencing a lot of consequences of an unhealthy sense of shame and a lack of empathy for others in society.

the shame drives maladaptive behaviors

the lack of empathy makes it easy to harm others in ways that people didn't always do ( I mean since caveman times or the middle ages)

or maybe people just suck :shrug:

[Writer]

8. So let me clarify...

you're saying that there was too much shame in your family, which caused a lack of empathy?

[SPKrazy]

12. no...

i have no lack of empathy

i was speaking of society in general

there was shame in my family, too much

and there is in society a type of shaming of a lot of things

there is also an increasing lack of empathy that is developing for reasons that are far too complicated for my simple brain to grasp.

Things like social anomie, fragmented neighborhoods, etc. etc.

i am sorry i didn't separate my thoughts.

no, i have perhaps too much empathy sometimes. i have to work to turn it off at times or it runs me over.

[Gormy Cuss]

33. Lack of empathy is the core problem IMHO, not a lack of shame.

Shame is about feeling bad for our own failures, and to the degree that it is self-imposed because we have let down others it can be a constructive part of understanding our own fallibility. Once we accept that nobody's perfect we can develop empathy.

Lack of empathy allows people to rationalize everything from rudeness to murder.

[graywarrior]

7. Feeling ashamed, or feeling shamed.

They're different.

[Writer]

9. Feeling ashamed, certainly.

You're right - there is a large difference.

[graywarrior]

11. I think so many people walk around shamed they don't know how to feel ashamed.

[Writer]

13. So people act out cruelly...

to others because they feel terrible about themselves?

[graywarrior]

15. Sure. Past abuse, low self-esteem, defensiveness.

[Writer]

19. Very true.

I wish I had caught that subtlety earlier, so that this whole discussion could have been better directed toward how we don't feel ASHAMED, instead of how we don't feel shamed.

[graywarrior]

21. I think we all feel shamed.

One of the biggest cutdowns or insults is to shame someone.

[SPKrazy]

14. that's a good point

and perhaps my upthread comments would have been better said by your simple statement, thanks

[MorningGlow]

16. I wouldn't want people to feel more shame

That's a very organized-religion way of getting people to heel. And it just encourages inferiority complexes.

I'd prefer a day when more people feel more compassion for others. I think that would go a long way toward achieving the ideal of treating others the way you want to be treated.

Mmmm...beer... :beer:

[Writer]

17. Yeah, beer makes heavy conversations like this go by easier.

[snailly]

18. We're the United States of The Selfish

MY feelings matter more than yours. I think we've become hyper aware of anything even remotely minuscule that might-maybe hurt our feelings. We are self-centered and encouraged to not look beyond our boundaries (race, sex, class, etc.).
I think "people", in turn, believe everything they say or do is right. Most folks have too much confidence in their intelligence. "Everyone I hate is wrong. MY actions are justified by the unfairness of this society".
I do believe this type of thinking leads to a shameless existence. My actions are some segment of society's fault. Why isn't so and so taking care of this or that?

We aren't a community. You're on your own these days.

These are my thoughts and feelings after a bottle of wine. :P

[HEyHEY]

22. Religion? It's always good at making people feel shame

[CBHagman]

24. There seem to be several things going on here.

First, I would agree with the author (I think it was Winifred Gallagher in the book Just the Way You Are) who pointed out that in the great scheme of things, American society is in many respects more civilized than it has ever been. Racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious bigotry are far more unacceptable than they were decades ago, though we haven't completely eradicated them. Our expectations regarding our quality of life have risen (Read The Good Old Days -- They Were Terrible! as a surefire nostalgia-killer).

That said, I worry that in the United States many of us are losing our sense of boundaries and our sense of community. Some of that may stem from our infatuation with technology, as people isolate themselves with their iPods and chat away on cellphones, oblivious to their surroundings and even to other people.

There are changes, too, in societal expectations for children and even young adults. Witness the helicopter parent, children riding in strollers when they are no longer toddlers, adult children remaining financially dependent on their parents well past college, etc. Mind you, not everyone chooses to do these things, but their prevalence makes for a society different from the one I grew up in. Children just weren't given that much attention or that many material goods when I was growing up, and anyone who got bad grades or wound up in trouble with an adult expected there would be hell to pay when Mom and Dad found out.

Yes, I know Gen Y parents who are strict with their kids or became self-sufficient at a fairly young age. We don't need to tar the whole society with the same brush. I'm merely suggested that between technology and smaller families (and hence greater attention paid to kids), the trends are shifting.

[Connonym]

26. Not personally a fan of shame

I don't think shame is productive in any way. It's too easy to use it as a manipulative tool and a divisive one at that. I think it would be better if focused on treating one another as equals and attempt to eradicate shame altogether. It all boils down to the golden rule really, treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves.

[DarkTirade]

27. I blame the 80s.

No coincidence that I was born in that decade though... :P

[cwydro]

28. No one

cares about any one else anymore. No one has a conscience any more.

Very sad.

[Critters2]

29. I stepped off my back porch this evening

to find two assholes peeing on a tree in the church yard. Marking their territory, I suppose. All I could think was "what the hell is wrong with people?!!"

Then they finished, looked right at me, and zipped 'em up, as if they do this kind of thing every day.

[Heidi]

30. Compassion and empathy are possible without shame. (nt)

[Jamastiene]

31. I triple dog dare you to crosspost this in GD.

:beer:

:hide:

[Inchworm]

32. ummm, yes..

I want a beer :)

:hug:

[taterguy]

34. Oh the shameful things I've done while drinking beer

Make mine a double