Are Quentin Tarantino's films Feminist, Misogynist or neither?

[Mike03]

For a few years now, I've been fascinated by the question of whether or not Quentin Tarantino is a feminist filmmaker or, possibly, a misogynist. My tentative opinion, based on "Kill Bill" and "Death Proof" is that he is a feminist filmmaker, perhaps in the same category with, or slightly below, David Lynch--as a filmmaker who cares deeply about women, is fascinated by them and understands them (or believes he understands them) on some deep level. But because I really have no schooling in feminist theory and am male, I don't trust my own judgment in this matter.

By the same token, it is clear that Tarantino also objectifies his female characters, so that would tend to argue against a feminist interpretation, I am guessing?

Any opinions?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

1. yes

but not all of them.

[AlCzervik]

2. some of them.

pulp fiction-the directors cut and Reservoir Dogs.

[darkstar]

3. Fascinating...

Been having this discussion a lot around our household re: QT and Lynch. It really stemmed from discussing the work of Jess Franco, a director QT "quotes" in Foxy Brown and Kill Bill 2.

The upshot here is that Franco was consciously feminist at times, at least, that Lynch is at least subconsciously (ha ha) feminist, and that QT is accidentally feminist in the way he borrows from 60/70s exploitation that featured women protagonists and were made in the context of rising womens independence in the public mind.

[Mike03]

5. Whoa

That is exactly the sort of insight I was hoping to get on this matter.

"Accidentally" for Tarantino.

But why do you laugh about Lynch? I'm curious, because he seems to be genuinely feminist. Tell me why Lynch is not the more genuine of the two? I'm thinking of Twin Peaks, Mulholland Drive and Inland Empire as being truly empathetic female works, but like I said, I'm not trained in this area.

[darkstar]

9. Oh...sorry

I meant the laugh as an accompaniment to subconscious, i.e. dream-like nature of films. But--and this is Ms Darkstar's take more than mine(I'm male and broke your ground rules)--Lynch operates in area similar to fairy tales: strings of oddly symbolic characters, broadly drawn good and evil, dark places imbued w/ mystery, etc. He often places women in peril and doesn't have men rescue them, but these problems tend to be worked out in a fantasy and/or archetypal way rather than anything that could serve as a practical guide. So often feminist in spirit but not so much "how to" in the present cultural context, current issues, etc.

So..consensus here is agreement: empathetic.

Cool thread.

[Mike03]

10. Your opinions are deeply appreciated

because they are very well considered and deeply thought out. Maybe I should not have limited this discussion to females.

Have you written any papers on this topic, or do you have a blog or anything, if I could ask?

The reason I'm so interested in this question is that I spent a considerable amount of time arguing about some of these matters, but my background is in filmmaking and writing, not criticism. But I still have an enormous passion for certain films and directors and am curious about how they are perceived by others.

[Mike03]

13. I've changed the thread title so it is not limited to females

Thank you so much for your insight and response.

[darkstar]

16. Sure..we should have more chats like these in the lounge

Another interesting area is to look at 70s horror in general through the lens of feminism in general and abortion politics in specific.

Tons of movies from back then turn on the idea of women bearing children for the devil. The plots are many and varied, but frequently turn on the notion of being forced to carry by folks in on the scheme, people who view them only as vessels placed here to serve a larger purpose.

Neat to hear you are a film maker. Hope we get to talk about movies again soon....

:hi:

[Mike03]

19. The Division in DeathProof

Do you feel that by dividing DeathProof into two parts, the first which replicates the stereotypes of the Seventies, and the second which updates and violates the stereotypes was some way by Tarantino of saying that the genre needs to mature? Is "Death Proof" a criticism of the cinema of the Seventies?

I'm guessing that he appreciates but also has contempt for the cinema that inspired him in the first place, but his fascination seems to be with strong women.

What I can't determine is whether it is sincere respect or fetishism.

[cemaphonic]

43. The other angle I've read on that trend -

Baby boomers hitting parenting age after the hedonism of the late 60s-early 70s, and freaking out. Eraserhead fits well into this reading.

[Generator]

4. No too violent

Though I did really like Pulp Fiction though I felt bad about liking it. Kinda like the Sopranos. Again-too violent but sometimes hard to turn away. I don't think he's un feminist necessarily. He makes the women strong but you know-killers!I just think he's weird. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But the violence I no care for.

[Mike03]

6. I appreciate your response

I understand what you are saying. Thanks.

[stuntcat]

21. I'm with you (only even further :)

I feel like I'm wasting my time if I watch his kinda stuff. Some of what they do is interesting, I guess, it's not worth it for me though. Death Proof/Grindhouse definitely cost me a few brain cells :puke: my hubby wanted to go though, luckily it was a matinee. I was really pissed off after I sat through Kill Bill 2 in a dinner theater.
If I ever saw Tarantino I would NOT be holding my hand out for a shake.

[idgiehkt]

7. hmmm

I've only seen Pulp Fiction and an episode of Alias that he directed (I think he directed it...or wrote it or something).

The character of Mia in Pulp Fiction was realistic even though she didn't have to be. Rosanna Arquette's character in that film was really realistic too. But the part where the guy's wife, who was a nurse (actually that male character was played by Tarantino himself) was going to come home, and also the constrast in the day that Bruce Willis had vs his whiny girlfriend kind of made me wonder about him. It seems like he believed that the world of women and the world of men were two separate universes, and the male world was innately bloody and violent and well, grotesque. At the same time, the women in the 'normal' roles in that film seemed to live in a different universe where those realities were kept hidden, like the Wolf's daughter, you got the feeling that she was very sheltered despite what her dad did for a living. And the whole scene with the robbers and how the female robber falls apart, and the male robber won't call her a bitch or whatever...well, all I can say is there is a lot of diversity to his female characters in that film than in most, and they feel realer to me, except for Bruce Willis' girlfriend who just annoys me, lol.

[NC_Nurse]

8. No.

But I have only watched Pulp Fiction all the way through. I've seen parts of the Kill Bill stuff (my husband and son rented them).
You couldn't pay me to watch Reservoir Dogs. I hate violent movies.

The impression I got from what I did see was - beautiful women with tough guys. Hardly anything new or feminist about that.

[Mike03]

49. It's his later work I'm referring to

Predominantly Jackie Brown, Kill Bill v I and II, and Death Proof.

[graywarrior]

11. Yep

[LibraLiz1973]

12. One of my top 10 fav movies of all time is "Pulp Fiction"

I am also a huge fan of Kill Bill 1 & 2 and I loved Reservoir Dogs.

[pitohui]

14. there is nothing remotely feminist about kill bill

at the end of the day she is a slave to the product of her womb like any other woman in misogynist fantasy

everything's about the kid, because you know even if you're a trained assassin serial killer then at the end of the day, everything's about having and protecting a baby

a real woman in her position would have had an abortion not a brat

i have no schooling in feminist theory either, but i'm a woman, i'm a feminist, and this film is strictly a stroke fantasy for men who get off on the dominant women fantasy

david lynch may have stroke book material in his work too but it's deeper than that, and his women are darker than that, they aren't going to suddenly stop on a dime because they took a pregnancy test, jeez, see "eraserhead" now there's an unromantic view of mom and baby

[NV Whino]

15. Generally speaking I like his films

I liked Kill Bill 1 and 2. I thought they were a fine bit of film making. I'm not sure I would classify him as a feminist filmmaker, though.

On edit: I hated Pulp Fiction. I even watched several years later to see what I was missing and still hated it.

David Lynch: I loved Mullholland Drive, but I think you have to have an insight into some of the Hollywood stories and history to really understand and appreciate it. To me, it was an amazing bit of filmmaking. And finally, I think the two filmmakers are just that, filmmakers. They are neither feminists nor misogynists. They are artists.

[tigereye]

17. this is a fascinating question -

there is an exploitative quality to his films that might undermine the concept of his films being feminist, also his female characters (and I haven't seen all his films) seem to tend to use violence as their only means of personal control.

The concept of Lynch as a feminist is a very funny one - the cruelty that his female characters experience seems to belie that.


Of course there may be some deconstructionist approach to his films that I am not aware of.

on edit, it would be really cool to read some analysis of his films.

[AlCzervik]

18. wait, wasn't this a different question before?

[pokerfan]

20. He's a cophater!

[mitchum]

22. Yes...and racist

[Forkboy]

23. All I know is I'm sick of him putting Uma's fucking feet in the foreground all the time.

We get it Quentin, you like feet.

On the interesting QT rumor side though, there's a story about him maybe doing a Godzilla movie.Kill Zilla or something. :)

[Danger Mouse]

33. they're not even ATTRACTIVE, too.

:P

[devilgrrl]

24. I don't read much into his movies because I think he's just trying to make...

an entertaining movie.

Sure, they're violent, I too don't care for 'Reservoir Dogs' for that very reason but I do enjoy his other stuff, especially 'Kill Bill'. Speaking of 'Kill Bill 1&2', it's a semi-ripoff of a 1973 Japanese film called Lady Snowblood - and you want to talk about violence?!!!!! :wow: I'm sorry but no scene in any Quentin Tarrantino film can match the level of violence in some Japanese pictures. Check out Ichi the Killer (approach with EXTREME caution!), that film makes anything Tarrantino has done seem fit for the Disney Channel!:scared:

Having said that, I don't really read anything feminist/misogynist or whatever in Tarrantino films, just homages to weird comic books, crime novels and "B" movies. :shrug:

But that's just me. :blush:

[Danger Mouse]

35. ever see 'the story of ricky'?

incredibly, incredibly violent movie.

[devilgrrl]

38. No I haven't seen that film but thanks for the warning!

Oy! Seriously, Asia OWNS violence on film! :scared:

[Danger Mouse]

39. i've heard of 'ichi the killer' and have an idea of how violent it is...

'story of ricky' is worse. much, much worse.
but it's pretty entertaining to watch. the gore is so incredibly over the top, it's borderline comedic. well, no scratch that. it's hilarious.
in one part, a guy is disemboweled during a fight, but he refuses to give up, so he wraps his guts around his opponents neck and tries to choke him with his intestines. someone watching the fight yells 'you got a lot of guts, oscar!'
...best movie ever.

[Der Blaue Engel]

25. I certainly wouldn't say misogynist

I'm a chick (lol...let's see if anyone attacks me for saying that) and I love his movies, especially Kill Bill and Deathproof. He definitely makes interesting roles for strong women, so if not feminist as a filmmaker, he certainly seems to be doing more for women in film than any ten other men I can think of. (Except maybe Joss Whedon.) :)

[idgiehkt]

26. yeah, the more I think about it

just based on pulp fiction I would say he would be considered misandrist long before misogynist.

[sasquatch]

27. I think he's a foot fetichist too

Not that there's anythng wrong with that.

[bicentennial_baby]

34. That's a known fact

:)

[sasquatch]

37. Is it on his wikipedia page

:)

[Shell Beau]

28. I think he is just a strange dude with an even stranger imagination!

Sometimes it works for him; sometimes it doesn't!

[skygazer]

29. I think they try to be feminist but don't really succeed

At least not for me. Because they see "feminist" strictly in masculine terms. Power is seen in violence or physical strength. That's one-dimensional.

I'm not really impressed by "empowerment" that is simply a matter of women behaving like men. To me, feminism is so much more complex than that. To me, it means having the opportunity to take whatever direction you want in your life, to be the type of person you want to be without being restrained by artificial notions of what your gender is capable of. But by portraying strength as being this physical and violent attribute, it simply reinforces (to me) the supposed superiority of those qualities.

I don't see that as feminist.

[XemaSab]

30. I saw Kill Bill 1

and the violence against women was SO FOUL that I didn't see the second part.

Even if the violence in the film is partly perpetrated by women, I thought there was something exceptionally creepy about it, like even though the women are super-assassins, they are still just their bodies... like they may as well be strippers or hookers, ya know?

David Lynch... you might could call his vision a bit sexist. Women in his works occupy a world apart from men, and he definitely plays with the whole virgin/whore dichotomy. I feel like at the end of the day he likes and respects women. And FWIW, you can't say the men in his films aren't trapped in some of the same patterns.

[Mike03]

31. Shameless Kick for Myself

Because I am fascinated by your opinions and want more.

I even think this topic might be worth writing about, but I'm not sure I'm very objective and I want as many opinions as possible.

[Danger Mouse]

32. i like his movies.

i've never thought too hard about whether or not he's misogynist or feminist or what.
i just likes me some violence. :P

[jpgray]

36. Neither--they're familiar adolescent fantasies dolled up with different pedestals and whorehouses

:D

[mitchum]

47. And that is one of the reasons I consider you to be a very wise man

[Dastard Stepchild]

40. I don't think he actually gets women....

since none of his female characters seem like remotely human women. I don't know if this makes him misogynistic as much as it does clueless. Although I would argue that there are many popular movies written by men that just don't have female characters that I view as authentic. I would put Judd Apatow in this category, too. I can't get into the women in his movies, either.

I would not call Tarantino a feminist. I am comfortable making that statement. But I would have to give it some more thought before I labeled him misogynistic.

[Wetzelbill]

41. probably all of the above

He does have strong women characters, but then again he tends to make women who talk like men. And he frequently uses words like "bitch." However, Tarantino uses language and profanity in clever ways. It's not particularly clever for someone to write "eff this and eff that" all the time or to use racially sensitive language like "nigger" or gender sensitive language like "bitch." But Tarantino intentionally trashes language up. It's clever and colorful. At once offensive and intriquing.

I do think because he blurs the lines of gender he could be considered feminist, sort of along the lines of Monique Wittig, albeit in a foul mouthed way. Wittig was a French feminist who was interested in overcoming gender. She didn't believe in separating women and men. To her "women" only existed in relation to "men." It was a way to separate and create divisions between two groups of people. That separation allowed men to subjugate women, so for her, it made sense to have no separation. If there was no "men" or "women" and just human beings then gender inequality would not exist. So when I listen to say the women in "Death Proof" driving around in a car talking like men do, well, I see a similar thing. No separation of gender. Like the girls in the first section of that film, they sound just like Jules and Vincent at the beginning of Pulp Fiction. It's interesting how that works. For all purposes those characters could be either men or women. To an extent, that is overcoming gender, and that is a very feminist concept for Tarantino to express.

[Mike03]

42. Kick

I want to write about this topic, and that is why I want as many opinions as possible. Just in case any newcomers who have an opinion on this question might see this post, please feel free to express your opinions on your feelings towards Tarantino's work.

[BlueIris]

44. A question that might be better addressed in our feminist forum.

We have a lot of film buffs there.

[CreekDog]

45. Overrated

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. I'd say neither here nor there.

[unpossibles]

48. I'll go with the Neither camp

I think he has elements of both, and will say he probably leans a bit more toward wanting to be feminist but comes across as misogynistic. As an artist, writer, and musician I know that I very often create things which are not about me or what I believe, but an attempt to be about what a character would do or believe. Yes, very often they reflect my own worldview in some way and/or are colored by how I interpret things, but that doesn't mean they conform to me.

Does that make sense?

I also agree with some that I don't think he "gets" women as much as he might think he does. I'm not sure any man really does, and I don't mean that in a sexist way, just in the sense that I'm not sure any man can truly know the experience of being a woman and vice versa. Doesn't mean one is better or worse, but there are differences both biologically and in how society (and all of the various subcultures) treats each gender differently.

I find his female characters generally interesting and fairly diverse, but at the same time they can be somewhat flat and unchanging. Same as his male characters, actually. All of the denizens of his worlds are really just there so he can create some action, some plot twists, and some very typical monologue near the climax of the film. In other words, he is just a film maker at heart trying to tell (or retell as is often the case) a story.

As far as male writers who are similar yet I think more successful at a similar shtick, I would nominate Tom Robbins along with Lynch. yes, I know it's a different medium, but... they always remind me of each other in that the characters seem to exist to pontificate some point QT wants to make, which is often incidental to the story, such as the Superman bit at the end of Kill Bill 1.

Great thread, btw.

[Mike03]

50. Sorry, I should definitely have specified

That I was referring to the 'Jackie Brown' to Present phase of his work, in which I think I notice some maturation. I agree, I could never make a credible argument that his earlier works like Pulp Fiction were feminist, and that would include not merely Pulp Fiction but his screenplays for Dusk Til Dawn and Natural Born Killers.

I should perhaps have rephrased the question as, "Has Tarantino matured into a feminist."

Anyway, I regard this as a truly open question, and I'm an agnostic. There is little denying there are fetishistic aspects of his work, and I often can't tell "respect" from "objectification" even in the bolder works like "Kill Bill" and the second act of "Death Proof" (i.e., especially when juxtaposed to the intentional stereotypes of the first act of that film).

To be more specific, I have wondered if he was influenced by his ten year creative relationship with Uma Thurman, who is credited as a co-creater of Kill Bill. That was followed immediately by Death Proof, which in its first acts mocks the passive victimization and naivete of females as depicted in seventies grindhouse films, and then revises that entirely in the second act by having the second group of females be extremely competent at neutralizing their attacker.