what do you think about this, ethically?

[grasswire]

A woman I know babysits her infant grandson as a courtesy to her son, to help out. The dad works; the mom is attending grad school via student loans and aid. They don't have a lot of money, but neither does the grandmother, who is on a very modest fixed income. She occasionally helps them out financially out of her small income. Every month they are short a couple of hundred bucks that they ask to borrow. Sometimes they pay back, sometimes not.

Last week the mom-dad asked the grandmother to sign a statement that would allow them to get significantly more student aid money -- nearly $3000 for a quarter. The statement affirmed that she babysits the child 6 hours per day 5 days per week and said that they were paying her $8.50 an hour for child care. She signed it.

The next day, the mom-dad went shopping on that money. New rugs, clothes, toys, stuff from Ikea, etc. No mention of any portion of it going to the grandmother, despite the fact that they borrowed money just a week ago.

The mom is a shopaholic, it seems clear, with credit that allows her to buy a helluva lot of stuff from the popular stores. House stuff gets upgraded regularly -- this is the third time in 18 months that new rugs have been purchased. They eat out a lot and live above their means, really.

Should this grandmother feel insulted? She will not say anything about it to them. Should someone else in the family say something? Was it even legal to sign that statement?

[skygazer]

1. Unless you're a relative, keep out of it

Of course its wrong - you know its wrong. I imagine everyone involved could get into legal hot water for lying on a loan application and the grandmother is an idiot to let these people walk all over her like that.

However, as I said, unless you're a relative, I'd keep right out of it. Families do stupid things.

[PeaceNikki]

3. I agree. And, try not to judge either party because you don't know the whole story

It's always easy to pick the "right" path when you're outside looking in, but much different when faced with specific circumstances. We do what we must to keep peace and sanity in our lives.

[AlCzervik]

2. The grandmother is enabling it, i'm sure she wants to help but really she's not.

[Pacifist Patriot]

4. Ethical quagmire

Not the decisions I would make.

As for the legality, that is an excellent question. If she signed a document entitling them to funds based on erroneous information, she is a party to fraud. I do not know to what extent I would get involved if I were not a member of the family, but the grandmother has accepted a legal liability she probably does not understand.

Hard to say without intimate knowledge of the situation.

[grasswire]

5. I think she thought they WERE going to give her some money.

So the lack of proper communication is what caused her to sign the paper. "We want you to sign this paper saying you're being paid for babysitting; we can get more student aid if you do." I guess that doesn't signal they intend to give her any of it.

[BlooInBloo]

6. What fucking schmucks-for-parents.

[petronius]

7. These parents sound a bit skeezy, and signing the paper was fraud

The grandma has been placed in some legal jeopardy (IMO, IANAL). That said, I don't think anyone else would be well-advised to get involved, unless this third-party was a sibling, child, or other close conection to the grandmother. Barring that, the most I'd do is advise the grandma to back off and protect herself...

[idgiehkt]

10. yes, because what if the IRS gets ahold of that and counts it as income for her

and taxes it??? These people are not thinking.

[JVS]

12. turn em in!

[pitohui]

8. the grandma helped commit fraud and reaped what she sowed

she shouldn't have signed a lie, she was complicit in a fraud, and she didn't even get any of the money -- but she could end up getting some of the penalties if the crime is ever discovered

hard to feel sorry for stupidity though when she knew the piece of paper she signed was a complete and total lie

and think about this, in a few years, the IRS is going to make her pay tax on this "income" she has claimed to receive, whether or not she did! (they wait several years to go after you so they can enhance the penalties and fees)

she committed a crime and now in the end she will do the time (she won't go to jail but she will probably end up being out real money because of this)

[idgiehkt]

11. urp

I should have read your reply before I responded above. Poor grandma. Plus you can only make a certain amount a year when you are on retirement, I think it's like $10,000. Or maybe that's until a certain age.

[BlooInBloo]

13. You use legal terms. You use them correctly only if mens rea is demonstrable.

[Rabrrrrrr]

9. Ethically, I'm neutral - the kids are taking advantage of her; but she's a willing accomplice to it.

So, in a sense, they aren't abusing her since she hasn't put a stop to it.

What I say to you is to forget about it. You probably don't have the whole story and the whole story will go back at least two generations), and even if you did, they need to deal with it themselves.

But mostly, unless and until the grandmother feels like she's being abused and taken advantage of, she isn't being abused or being taken advantage of.

[JVS]

14. A parent will sacrifice and even commit fraud for his or her children

A good child does not ask for help irresponsibly, and is prepared to help the parent when necessary.

[Truthiness Inspector]

15. How old is the grandmother? This is important.

There are laws against elder abuse, and that includes in large part financial abuse of people 65 or older.

Just because the grandmother "agreed" to this, doesn't mean it's ok. More times than not it is family members who abuse their own elders. You said in a later post that your impression was that grandma expected some return, which tells me that they took advantage of her because of her senior status.

I think more info is necessary here. Some are telling you to stay out of it, but on the other hand, MOST people "stay out" of elder abuse situations.

Just not enough info to know, but something to very strongly consider.