WHAT THE FUCK?!

[Connonym]

$300 for a fucking text book? One SINGLE textbook? It sucks to be working poor in America. Fucking sucks.

[IndianaJones]

1. sounds reasonable to me. nt.

[KitchenWitch]

3. $300 is reasonable for ONE BOOK?

I am in the wrong business.

[IndianaJones]

4. some of the crap on my kids text lists was over 2 grand...

I feel privelaged that they are allowing me to rent them for 500.

[skygazer]

9. That doesn't make it reasonable

It just makes it less than what was on your kids list. Frankly, I think it's a disgrace the amount they charge for textbooks.

[IndianaJones]

10. If I could set prices for the things I buy, everything would be cheaper...

What does reasonable have to do with it?

[skygazer]

12. Um ..... it's what you said

and I quote - "sounds reasonable to me."

[IndianaJones]

22. The cost does sound reasonable....but not based on what I pay..

Books are expensive. Some books are more expensive. I had texts in that range in college. It was understood that some classes had more expensive books. It is reasonable to pay 300 for a book that is worth 300.

[KitchenWitch]

24. I think the point that is trying to be made here is...

that the prices of textbooks - whether grade school, middle school, high school or college - are artificially inflated, simply because the publishers know that they can charge such exorbitant prices because people have very little choice in the matter.

[IndianaJones]

27. What do you mean by artificially inflated? Priced to include a profit for the publisher? nt

[KitchenWitch]

32. I have no issue with businesses making an ethical profit

But I do have issues with price gouging. I am reasonably certain that the publishers are not too concerned about the little people that have to mortgage their futures to buy their textbooks.

[IndianaJones]

35. I guess what I would like to see is some proof that they are gouging...

I regularly buy engineering references that in that price range and higher. I am pretty sure people are not beating down the door at Amazon to get them. I have never felt gouged. If I was paying 150 bucks for Harry Potter, that is a different story. They don't crank out millions of these books...shouldn't the authors make at least..say 1/10Kth of what Rowling makes? Or King?

[KitchenWitch]

36. Here is a quick and dirty guide

http://www.broadfootpublishing.com/publishing%20cost.htm

[IndianaJones]

37. Books aren't sold by the pound. nt.

[KitchenWitch]

38. Whatever

Sounds to me that you just like to argue.

I don't roll like that.

[IndianaJones]

40. Your link does not provide information on the pay for those that...

write text books. Do you propose that they do not deserve to be paid sufficiently for their work? Obviously the writers of my turbomachinery text do not sell as many books as Dean Koontz. How do you propose they be compensated? Or do they just suck it up and get paid significantly less so I can have a textbook that costs as much as the latest Harry Potter drivel?

[tigereye]

59. not all folks have hundreds or thousands of dollars to pay for textbooks

I remember this issue as a poor undergrad and grad student. I bought used ones much of the time or went to the library.


I think that was the op's point.


No one is saying that there should be no profit, only that sometimes the profit margin may seem to be inflated - I think this is true of kid's textbooks as well.

[IndianaJones]

63. Margins for textbook publishers are no higher than mass market publishers...

the markets are small and the books are expensive to produce. The cost is the same whether the individual pays or they are subsidized. Bemoaning the cost of the book is not the issue...who is paying may be of more concern.

[tigereye]

65. ah, there you go

not everyone can afford those prices.

[IndianaJones]

66. The solution is not requiring the publishers to lower prices and take a loss on the book...

it is to subsidize the books through taxes and aid.

[skygazer]

26. Why do I get the feeling

that if I completely reversed myself and agreed with you, you'd immediately insist that the price was highway robbery? :rofl:

[IndianaJones]

28. Perhaps...try it. nt.

[skygazer]

30. I have better things to do

Like picking lint out of my belly button. But thanks anyway. :hi:

[IndianaJones]

31. Sounds like a reasonable alternative. Knock yourself out. nt.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyFingerPop]

47. Moved post. n/t

n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Prove me there's such a a thing as a textbook that costs $2000. I ain't buying it. (Pun intended)

[IndianaJones]

45. PM me your fax number and I will fax the book list to you when I get off work...

In this county, we don't buy the text books...we rent them.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. -nt

[IndianaJones]

48. ok...PM me your email address and I will email I will scan it on Thursday...

and email it to you.

Next excuse not to receive it?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. Is the NAME OF ONE BOOK that hard to type?

[IndianaJones]

52. I'm at work and do not carry all the registration information with me at all times..I apologize...

why don't you simply supply a fax number? It will remain in my confidence. You'll have it in your hand by 1900 CST. Short of running home 50 miles and back to do it now, thats all I can offer ya.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. OK, you did say an e-mail address would do.

Here's one: [e-mail]

I assure you this address is legitimate and I'll be able to check it.

[IndianaJones]

58. That is fine...I will scan and email it to you after I get off work...

Please note...I am on CST, so no further accusations begin to fly if you don't get it when you think you should.

[Susang]

69. I'm awaiting the outcome of this

I asked my brother, who went through undergrad & med school at U of M if he'd ever had a textbook that expensive. Oddly enough, he hadn't. My sister's phd in clinical psychology at a private college didn't have any texts that price either, though she did have to pay about $500 for one.

BTW, textbooks prices have risen at twice the rate of inflation in the past two decades. http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news/1/ARTICLE/7196/2006-07-19.html

[IndianaJones]

74. I have not had texts that cost this much either....

my only explanation is that the cost for these items at the elementary level include some supplementary material. The cost for such subjects as reading and spelling were 50.00 per book or less. The expensive subjects were art, science and music. Perhaps a reason why many school systems are cutting their art and music programs.

[Susang]

94. So, are you saying the total of books were over $2000?

Or just one book was? Just want to be clear. And this is an elementary education text?

[Midlodemocrat]

2. Have you tried one of the cheap book sites?

cheaptextbooks.com, I think it is called.

Good luck. I feel your pain.

[Rhythm]

5. What's the class? That sounds insane...

I have to take Spanish next semester... course materials are almost $500
I average about $500 total per semester usually, so that's going to suck.

[Critters2]

7. For Spanish?!! What do they want you to buy...

a ticket to Spain?

[Ellen Forradalom]

15. At that rate

you could probably find a ticket to Spain cheaper.

Mexico, for sure. Sheesh.

[Rhythm]

21. The class materials include CDs, DVDs, and CD Roms...

It's a huge set, but still... i'm a poor college student, for cripes' sake!

[Critters2]

54. That's why God made language labs.

It's the school's responsibility to provide all of that.

[MorningGlow]

6. Good lord! What the hell class is it for?

I ask because I have always noticed that textbook publishers tend to gouge the students who "will be making a ton of money in the future"--accounting, management/business, medical, etc.

[skygazer]

11. Bingo!

I'm taking paralegal classes - any book with the word "law" in the title is guaranteed to be at least 200 bucks. :eyes:

[meegbear]

8. What? Used isn't good enough for you?

[Connonym]

14. yeah, used is bargain priced at 225

It's an anatomy/physiology text. I can order it from the school website or I can drive down to their bookstore and look up the ISBNs and hunt online this afternoon. I'm all about the cheap so I'll be driving down there this afternoon to hunt down the numbers.

Part of me thinks that there's so much other shit going on in my life right now (possibly having to change jobs and/or learn new program at work PLUS a paycut, needing to save for security deposit on an apartment, etc., etc.) that maybe I should postpone school for a semester. But dammit, I'm ready for my future to get started here. Any hints on how to rob a bank w/o hurting anyone and not getting caught?

[meegbear]

42. Wow! That sucks!

I remember paying $98 for a 125 page book for a software class 20 years ago. That hurt then.

Good luck!

[AllegroRondo]

13. Some of my computer science books were in that range

if you cant find it used, try looking for a paperback version. I found paperback versions of the texts for my World History class for $40 on Amazon, the hardcovers were $120.

[Ellen Forradalom]

16. At that rate

several of you should band together, buy one copy, scan it and each have a PDF. Seriously. I'm all for authors rights but $300 is out of fucking control.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

43. What Ellen said! Do it. -nt

[EstimatedProphet]

17. Does the library have a copy?

Grab it and photocopy it. Failing that, share a copy with another student or two.

[Orrin_73]

18. The past few years I did not buy any school

books, I just went to the university library and copied them there. Its much cheaper.

[Critters2]

23. My last year or two in graduate school, I just used the copies

the professors had placed on the reserved shelves in the library. Saved a ton of cash.

[Orrin_73]

33. The libraries have always reserve copies of every book

that is used at the university but you cant loan them for more then 2 weeks. So I copied them, but it saved me a lot of money.

[huskerlaw]

19. Are you in law school?

Cuz, while ridiculous, that would be fairly standard. Alas.

[Deep13]

20. That's insane. nt

[LostinVA]

25. Remember to blame the publishers, not the store

The store makes very little profit on textbooks. I used to be in the book biz.

What's criminal is how they change editions of basic courses every year when they don't have to,

Try looking on Amazon, B&N, ebay, etc. next time. Sometimes you can get a decent deal.

[LaraMN]

29. I've never spent that much for a SEMESTER'S worth of books!

Granted, I know plenty of people who have, but still!

OUCH!

x(

[Yavin4]

34. Check Out This Site

http://www.campusbooks.com/

Use the web to fight The Man!

[Xithras]

44. Limited runs + short shelf lives + glossy color pages = $$$$

I hear the same thing from my students every semester. It's fashionable to blame the publishers, but in reality they don't make all that much on them either.

This is driven by a few things: First, a particular textbook may not get used all that much. My CMPSC 101 textbook, for example, is used at only five or six other colleges in the nation. We're not trying to be different, there's just a LOT of textbook titles out there...last time I looked, there were literally three dozen different titles out there to choose from for my 101 course alone. The glut of titles means that no one book is going to get published in huge volumes, so economies of scale never kick in (a textbook that sells a couple thousand copies is considered a HUGE success). The vast majority of the $$ going back to the publishers goes directly into the pockets of the typesetters, print operators, binders, and others involved in the publishing process. Why have costs risen so dramatically over the past decade? Here's a great political tie-in for you....health insurance. As health insurance costs for their employees have skyrocketed, textbook publishers have passed those costs on to the buyers. With so few books being generated for each run, the per book price increase becomes noticeable. Yep, that's right, national healthcare would reduce the cost of college textbooks. Whodathunkit.

The second one is a bit more controversial, but short shelf life has a lot to do with it too. There are three things that drive this. The first is currency. Not the money kind, but the "being current" kind. Because we're talking higher ed, students (and parents) expect textbooks to be current with the latest research and findings in a particular field. Most textbooks get updated once a year, or every other year, for this very reason. There's also the fact that many colleges and universities require that instructors publish in their field in order to gain tenure. A lot of tenure seekers satisfy this requirement by writing new textbooks to fix whatever problem (real or perceived) they found with their existing textbooks. In fact, the vast majority of college textbooks in ANY subject came into being this exact way. Some get national use, while others are only used at the colleges and universities that the particular author is attempting to gain tenure in (which in turn brings the economies of scale thing back into play). With a constant stream of new titles being published to satisfy those tenure seekers, it becomes necessary to retire older publications after only a couple of years.

Of course, some titles for core classes (like English 101) are updated for no apparent reason at all. There IS a reason, of course, but not one most people would like. ENGL textbooks don't really change, but they have the same limited runs as other textbooks. To keep the books in print, the publishers need to shake up the editions every now and then and purge old copies from the book resellers. It's controversial, but if they didn't do that, publishers would quit releasing new titles in those fields and eventually the old ratty used copies would be all that's available.

Finally, there's the fact that these books aren't cheap to publish in the first place. Take a walk through a college bookstore and you'll quickly notice that almost all textbooks sold today are glossy, with color on every page, photos sprinkled everywhere, and slick paper that feels nice to the touch. Increasing numbers of textbooks also include CD's with supplemental learning materials and online tools to help the student out. Textbooks were MUCH cheaper back when I went to college, but they were also a lot less showy. They had rougher paper, and were generally black & white with images focused on a relatively small number of pages. This kept production costs and prices down. So why the gloss and expense today? Because it's what colleges are demanding. If you tried to publish that 15 year old book today, no college would buy it. The uni's want everything to be bright, colorful, and attractive. They want those CD's so they can seem technologically modern and keep the Internet generation interested. There's nothing wrong with all of that, but it adds expense...and the student is the one who has to pay it.

It's easy to say "blame the college", or "blame the publisher", but as usual reality is a bit more complicated. JMHO.

[LeftyFingerPop]

49. The cost may or may not be reasonable, BUT...

I think the point the OP is making is this:

She is a person struggling to educate herself. $300 is an onerous cost for one textbook to someone who may be struggling. It is not an onerous cost to a millionaire.

Personally, I feel that textbooks should be fucking FREE to a student if they meet certain financial requirements.

We need people in this country who have a desire to better themselves. We don't need people arguing over whether $300 is reasonable or not. Trust me...if you are perhaps wondering whether you will be eating the next day, $300 is plenty well expensive.

So let's take the OP at her word, instead of arguing with her. IT'S FUCKING EXPENSIVE!!

[Deep13]

51. Damn right. I've been there. nt

[LeftyFingerPop]

53. Me too my friend....n/t

[Connonym]

55. Thanks for your understanding n/t

[LeftyFingerPop]

61. You are welcome, and...

I wish you the best in your educational endeavors.

[IndianaJones]

57. Different argument. The cost of the book is 300 whether you or I pay or the government...

subsidizes it. The authors and publisher should be fairly compensated for their work. In my own personal case, I feel that local taxes and federal funds should pay for the textbooks in full. I have no problem with subsidizing the cost of texts for those that cannot afford them. I do have a problem with those that claim that they are overpriced without supplying evidence of this.

[LeftyFingerPop]

60. I'm not going to get into this except to say...

students are a captive audience in a marketplace. They have no choice but to buy the textbook. Competition for a PARTICULAR SUBJECT is limited. Because of this lack of competition, as well as the captive student audience, it stands to reason the said textbook prices will fuck over the students.

I've spent the majority of my career pricing expensive goods and services. I understand fully how companies build their pricing structures...and here's a hint...they have no sympathy for the consumer in a captive market.

[IndianaJones]

62. Textbooks are expensive to produce and there is a small market for them...

Margins for textbook publishers are not out of line with mass market publishers.

[LeftyFingerPop]

64. Let's put it this way...

if publishers were monitored the way defense contractors were, and the issuance of textbooks to every student in the country was monitored bu auditing agencies, and every component of reported cost was verified to be actual and resonable, and profit margins were limited to a reasonable margin after the VERIFICATION of costs...there would be no more $300 textbooks.

[IndianaJones]

67. Well, I can't argue with the shadow conspiracy, I can only look at the balance sheets. nt.

[LeftyFingerPop]

68. You mean the P & L statement, don't you?

Listen...where are the costs?

Raw materials? Overhead? G & A? And...what exactly is the profit margin on total reported cost. If you are that close to the publishing business, you should be able to answer. Where are the costs, and what is the margin on total cost?

If the costs are in overhead and G & A...WHY are they so high? Entertainment expenses? Extravagant travel practices for employees? Useless seminars for employees? You get my drift?

Just because a business incurs "costs", it does not mean that those costs "need" to be incurred.

[IndianaJones]

70. Operating margin for McGraw Hill was 13% last year...

Are you saying that they are understating profits? Or that they are incurring unnecessary cost in their educatinal publishing division? The company has enjoyed fairly steady growth over the past 5 years. The combination of an expensive to produce product and low volume invariably lead to higher cost to the consumer. The accusations you are making are not reflected in the reportings or documentation of this company, so it remains simply a shadowy conspiracy. Excessive profit, such as seen in the oil industry, would lend credence to what you are saying. The release of new editions every 3 or 4 years, the inclusion of sometimes unnecessary supplemental materials all can be pointed to as reasons for the cost of textbooks. Extravagant and hidden profit by textbook publishers cannot.

[LeftyFingerPop]

73. OK...13% on actual cost...how much on REASONABLE cost?

20% 50% 100%??

Does their profit need to be 13% in order to grow the business? How much was funneled back to shareholders as dividends at the expense of the consumer.

I'm not talking about profits, I'm talking about costs, and you didn't answer my questions.

In any case, there are really too many unknowns to be able to disagree with the OP as you have been doing this entire thread.

[IndianaJones]

75. I've disagreed with the assertion that publishers are raking in massive profits on text books...

which I don't believe has been made by the OP.

[LeftyFingerPop]

76. but....

you have not been able to prove your claim.

[IndianaJones]

77. Actually I have. The exorbitant profits you claim are not shown in...

any filings I have located. Of course, any assertion that a text book should cost as much as a copy of The Shining must be true.

[LeftyFingerPop]

78. I'm done...you argue for the sake of arguing, and...

you still haven't told me where the costs lie and how they are absolutely required to do business.

[IndianaJones]

79. This information is not broken out in the financial statements of this public corp...

and I do not have insider information to that effect. I would think that your accusations of fraud in reporting of profit or non-existent costs used to mask these massive profits would have backing data available somewhere. These are serious allegations and the shareholders may be interested in seeing evidence. Especially if profit has been understated to the degree which you claim.

[LeftyFingerPop]

80. Are you for real? n/t

[IndianaJones]

82. You are claiming some insider information as to the workings of...

publishers. I do not have such information, only available filings. My research has shown textbook costs to be tied to expense of publishing and supplemental material. You are claiming massive hidden profits. Are you for real?

[LeftyFingerPop]

83. Listen...

you are either busting my balls, or you are stupid.

When did I say "fraud"?

If a publishing company decides to send every employee to Hawaii for six months, and includes that cost on the ledger, is it fraud? No. Is it illegal? No. Does it get passed onto the consumer? Yes.

Now, stop fucking putting words in my mouth, and stop talking about shit you can't argue constructively.

Insider information? :rofl:

When did I say that?

Step away from your computer...

[IndianaJones]

84. Are you serious? If they are doing what you claim...

how are they realizing the massive profits? A company that has shown steady growth and sound management is squandering shareholder profit on frivolous expenses? Surely you have some proof of that? Or is it more shadow conspiracy of the evil text book publishers? ha.

They're probably selling Barry Bonds steroids too....and passing that on to elementary school kids. Insidious.

[LeftyFingerPop]

85. Where is the cost....

for a $2,000 textbook? If you are going to bust my balls, at least show me the courtesy of answering my questions.

You mentioned a $2,000 textbook. Where is the cost?

[skygazer]

86. You can type your fingers bloody arguing with that one

No matter what. If you say the grass is green, he'll tell you it's blue - for the next fifty posts. When he runs out of things to say, he'll post non-sequiturs. Kind of amusing but tiresome after a while. :hi:

[LeftyFingerPop]

87. Is it me or him...

that is being argumentative? :hi: :rofl:

[IndianaJones]

88. I can only work from the cost given me by the school...$2577...

the assumption I made at the time is that this text(art in this case)published by MacMillan includes a significant amount of supplemental material, that may even cover the entire class. A similar high price was attached to science and music, while such subjects as spelling and reading were more in line with individual book cost - 50.00 or less. My theory is that this is the reason many elementary schools are discontinuing their art and music programs. This is all conjecture on my part however.

I can speak to the high cost of some of my engineering texts in college that at times ran in excess of 100.00. These texts were detailed obviously, contained numerous figures and graphs, as well as sample problems, and were co-written by numerous authors in the academic and business world. They often contained supplemental material in the form of software and reference handbooks. I am currently looking at buying an engineering reference book that is well in excess of 200.00. Do I think that the publishers are looking to squeeze 100% profit or more out of these low volume products to screw everyone? No. If you do, we just disagree. Obviously no evidence has been presented by either of us to change the others mind.

[LeftyFingerPop]

89. I'm going to help my neighbor build his deck...

have a nice day.

[IndianaJones]

90. You too...your chivalry appears consistent if you are truthful. nt.

[LeftyFingerPop]

91. I meant it when I wished you well...

I hope you have a nice day. I just have no idea what you are talking about on this subject.

[IndianaJones]

93. I meant helping with the deck. My wish for your good day was sincere. nt.

[Connonym]

71. I have no problem with the textbook authors being paid for their work

I'm just saying that a $300 textbook is speaking for myself damned near unaffordable. If you look at it, there's an irony in being broke and trying to get an education to get ahead but being so broke you can't afford the education! At least I find it ironic.

[IndianaJones]

72. I am not arguing that the high cost of textbooks should not be subsidized...

through taxes or grants. I see several people here saying that publishers are ripping people off. This is not born out by the available facts. In my case, the cost of my childrens texts and class material should, in my opinion, be paid for by local taxes and federal funding. That is a different argument than the cost of the books themselves. Who pays is a very valid concern and one that we are most likely in agreement on.

[deadparrot]

81. Unsurprising, but insane nonetheless.

I'm a history major, so I usually have 5-6 books per class. They're usually academic texts (and thus fairly expensive), and often we only have to read a few chapters or less. Then I sell them back at a fraction of the price. :banghead:

[Eurobabe]

92. My Pet Goat is a collector's item, silly!

Didn't you know that when you enrolled in that course??

[idgiehkt]

95. that was my total at the bookstore this year too

I got two little skinny books. They look like workbooks. I didn't even look at the prices, I am going part time, I was thinking maybe 50 bucks each. When she said $315 I almost fell over. :(

[Adsos Letter]

96. Just wait till you go to sell it back...

...funny how they figure depreciation...