What Would You Do?

[SPKrazy]

I seem to fall into people talking in front of me at my gym saying things that they think I won't have any fucking idea what they are talking about or something.

Okay, two lawyers are talking today in the locker room, one goes (paraphrased) "that one guy I represented up in ______ went to prison for 15 years, I didn't do a very good job of representing him I don't guess, he didn't even fire the gun"

I'm like, hey, I work in a profession that is scrutinized by lawyers who will sue my ass off if I don't do my job, and here is a lawyer saying he probably didn't do his job and some guy is in prison for that!

Now I didn't say anything to him, and I looked for him after that to ask him about it. It pissed me off.

I wonder if anyone has any ideas about what I could do about this. I don't know his name, and I don't know his client's name.

Those are things I might be able to find out.

:shrug:

what would you do?

[Shine]

1. It would depend on how much more drama I wanted to create in my life

to get involved in the situation you're describing, you'd have to track down the guy's name, the client's name, the case history, blah, blah, blah.....it gets complicated pretty quickly.

I'm sure you have better uses for your time and energies.

I would not choose to go down that path, personally...although, like you, my opinion of the lawyer guy at the gym might've gone down a few notches.

Leave it at that, I say.

[NMDemDist2]

2. I think that's one you'll just have to give over to the Universe to handle.

Even if the poor sucker could prove bad representation could he get another trial or a better lawyer?

I dunno man, that one falls into the 'tilting at windmills' category to me :shrug:

[SPKrazy]

3. ah, but then again I am

don Quixote eh?

:rofl:

:shrug:

[mzteris]

5. Don Quixote?

[mzteris]

4. honestly?

I'd have to track him down, investigate, research, contact SOMEONE. I don't think I could let some poor guy languish in prison if I had info that might help him out. ya know?

You're a good guy, SPK - I know you don't need the drama or the stress, but - I think you know what you want to do - even though you don't want the headache.

Let me stress though, that you are NOT a BAD GUY if you choose to let it go. You didn't create the situation.

:hug:

[SPKrazy]

9. Several Things Piss Me Off

First, if he'd been talking about it like, "oh man, I've really screwed up and have to do something about it" that would be one thing, but it was this "ah, so what" kinda attitude from BOTH lawyers that pissed me off.

Of course I've seen this attitude from lots of different so called professionals and the fact is that there are some jackasses out there, some really burned out people, and some really good and dedicated people out there.

My hunch is that I will ask him about it (the lawyer) and explain that I heard him speaking of it, and tell him that i think that if that is the case he should really try to do something about it.

If he shrugs it off, or blows me off, then I may do a little research. I strongly suspect that lawyers are as bad as or worse than other professions when it comes to circling the wagons around one of their own. The only thing that would ever have a remote chance is to get the information to the family of the person in jail. Or to that person. Then, it is what? My word against his.

I dunno MzTeris, I feel the sentiment of what you say and hate the thought of some guy in prison who might not belong there, or who had a lazy, burned out, asshat for a lawyer. :eyes:

thanks for the :hug:

I hear some wild things in that locker room and the sauna there. Lawyers in particular seem to love to brag about things that seem pretty obviously to be not good things to brag about in my opinion.

:hug:

[mzteris]

12. lawyers are just like everyone else

some good ones, some bad ones. some smart ones, some not-so-smart ones. some ethical ones, some not-so-ethical ones. some go-getters, some lazy ones.

I used to be a legal secretary (lo many many years ago) and I worked (not for very long) for probably the two worst lawyers east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon. They were incompetent, they were lazy, and they didn't give a rip about much of anything except the $$.


I know you'll do the right thing, SPK; you're just that kind of guy. :loveya:

[SPKrazy]

13. thanks Mzteris

:yourock:

:loveya:

:hi:

:hug:

really thanks!

[cwydro]

6. That would really piss me off.

And if there was something that I could do about it, then I would.

But I'm kinda like that...tilting at windmills kind of thing. Most likely it is a dead end.

[SPKrazy]

7. Yeah

it is a problem

tilting at windmills it is

:hi:

[hippywife]

8. I guess it would depend

on his attitude and tone when he was relating the story. Was he smug about it or did he seem to be somewhat dejected? Plus, that little snippet of conversation didn't tell you all there is to know about the case, either.

I would hate to see someone go to prison for something they didn't do but there's not enough info here to go on.

[SPKrazy]

10. Smug

no doubt about it

smug as hell, laughing about it, and the lawyer he was talking to was joining him in a smug moment of "ah well, what the hell, he probably did something to deserve it" and yes you are right i have no background on what the case was other than a murder where this person supplied the gun. That the person was tried before anyone else and that "surprised" this lawyer but he didn't bother to find out why. Finally that he said he probably didn't do a good job of defending him.

:eyes:

I don't know what to make of all of that except that it was said in a non-dejected tone for sure!

:hi:

[Inchworm]

11. First - get dressed

:)

Then I'd think of if the guy was just being smug with his buddy. Hard to get the whole picture in a few locker room comments. Would be interesting to investigate but it would take some work I'd guess.

:shrug:

[SPKrazy]

14. *snort*

yeah, clothes matter here

:rofl:

[mzteris]

15. killjoy

don't you know what's important around here?

Huh. Noobies.

[SPKrazy]

23. ,,,

:rofl:

[mzteris]

16. oh yeah

:hi:

Welcome to DU.

Cutting your teeth in the Lounge is a very very brave thing to do. (Not as brave as GD, but still . . . )

[Inchworm]

17. Thanks for the welcome

I read GD for like 45 min and was scared to go farther or even post.

:)

[mzteris]

18. at least you're intelligent, then.

:rofl:

[bridgit]

19. did he happen to mention that his client was holding a loaded gun...

in the course of a robbery? cause that's like robbery, or armed robbery i think, and if a loaded gun had discharged and killed someone, it could mean the difference between 5-7 & 25-life, or some other equally hard judgment altogether...DU lawyers please jump in

i hear you on the 'professionals should be held to the same standards they presume for others' issue straight-up!!

maybe the guy is, or will be able to assert unfit legal council, i know if i had something to stand on, i'd be jumping up & down on top of it :thumbsup:

[SPKrazy]

22. yeah i don't know what the guy did or didn't do so

i'm at a loss, and don't know his name even.

now i'm ticked at myself for not taking advantage of the moment and using surprise by just quizzing him right then and there.

:shrug:

[Nicole]

20. I would be worried.

I am worried about it...

in fact, I think we should worry about this one a lot

meet me at the Hideaway and we'll worry over Pizza :P

:rofl:

[SPKrazy]

21. Okay, it's a deal!

pick a day and I'll be there (and pick a hideaway)

:hi:

:rofl:

:P

[tigereye]

24. well, I think it isn't wise to make assumptions about a comment

like that, since you weren't in the courtroom and don't know what exactly happenied. The lawyer (smug or not) may have done the best he was able to do under the circumstances.

things are often much more complex than they can appear from just some offhand comments.

JMO

[SPKrazy]

25. could be

he was very smug

offhanded or not, it might do him good to realize how he sounds blabbing in a room full of people in a loud voice

:shrug:

or not

:hi:

[Deep13]

26. Best guess: just blowing off steam.

Criminal defense lawyers have to learn to take failure in stride. Self-deprecation helps.

[SPKrazy]

33. mebbe

can't really think of a reason to brag about failure that's true.

:shrug:d

[huskerlaw]

27. Hmmm.

I'd say that little snippit isn't really enough to go by.

I've had many conversations with lawyer friends that actually would come across as flippant and uncaring, regarding trial outcomes. Heck, I've even heard them say "shit, I must not have done a good enough job" when in reality, the evidence sucked, or the witnesses were shit, or...really any number of things that the lawyer couldn't control.

The thing is, it sounds flippant because a lawyer simply cannot care deeply about each and every client's circumstances. It's a job, just like your job...lawyers need to blow off steam at the end of the day just like you do. Lawyers have shit days, just like you do. It just sounds worse because someone's life is obviously adversely affected.

I don't think I'm explaining this very well, but here's a potential scenario that springs to mind: Lawyer has robbery case. Client is accused of holding up a 7/11 with a loaded gun. Client is an obnoxious bastard who doesn't help in his own defense, perhaps even does something to harm his case(like, say, has a run-in with the law in between arrest and trial). Trial doesn't go so well. Perhaps the judge is being a jackass and overrules all of the lawyer's objections. Maybe there's security video showing the client waving the gun around like a crazy man...or pointing it at someone. Maybe there's an ultra-sympathetic witness who does a fabulous job of conveying how scary the accused was.

So the lawyer, despite presenting a fair case, gets his ass kicked and the client gets 15 years (which, if it's armed robbery, is a bit stiff, but not unheard of). After sentencing, the client goes off on him. Accuses him of being a piece of shit attorney, and claims that it's all his fault. Perhaps even threatens to sue him.

Now it's the end of the day and the lawyer is meeting up with his buddy at the gym. He's had a bad day, he's not amused. He starts venting about the trial from hell and the ridiculous client who's about to sue him for circumstances beyond his control. And in the course of that conversation, you overhear: "that one guy I represented up in ______ went to prison for 15 years, I didn't do a very good job of representing him I don't guess, he didn't even fire the gun"

See what I'm saying?

Now, I'm not saying you'd be wrong to look into it. I'm just saying that lawyers are people too. We have bad days. We vent and joke about things that aren't funny. Because our jobs aren't funny. And yes, sometimes we sound like arrogant pricks when we do it. But that doesn't mean we're incompetent.

:hi:

[SPKrazy]

30. And I appreciate that perspective

I also don't know that all lawyers are competent, I would hope most are. I do not know if this one is or isn't. Burned out is more the feeling I got from him.

If I were to discuss my clients/patients in a public place with other people in my profession I would be breaking multiple laws. Does that mean I never discuss patients with colleagues? No, in fact there are provisions in my licensing laws that allow for that kind of consultation. In a public place, where he did name this client of his, I didn't catch the name though, and went on to say what he said where others could hear, smacks of arrogance, as in, i can talk freely here because these people don't matter :shrug:

I dunno, I prolly won't do anything about it, it does piss me off HL, I'm sorry, my job and my life are made more difficult because of regulations and fear of lawsuits to the point that a special department exists where i work that is only there to "minimize risk" meaning avoid lawsuits. In other words lawyers have not made my job easier, or the care I give my patients better, in fact it is without a doubt harder to provide care because one has to keep in mind that whatever they say, do, or write, might have to be explained in a court of law whether it was warranted or not.

:hi:

[huskerlaw]

34. I do agree with you.

He never should have said the client's name in public. I'm not going to argue with you there.

However, I do feel the need to take a bit of issue with your final paragraph. I don't know specifically what you do, but is it really the lawyers that are making your job more difficult? Or is it an agency or the insurance company? Because although it is the lawyers who do the suing, it's often not the lawyers who are to blame for the ridiculous policies.

[SPKrazy]

36. Lawyers make the policies

in the guise of legislators state and fed

lawyers do the suing,

plenty of other policies at the job level that are in fact probably not drawn up by lawyers, but they are consulted and stamp approval on them.

I work as a clinical social worker in a hospital based geri psych program.

I've worked in various settings over the past 20 years and the rules, and fears of suits get worse every year.

:shrug:

:hi:

I figured the last paragraph wouldn't be popular with you, and i'm not indicting lawyers, as they say, everyone hates lawyers until you need one. i just think our litigious society has been made so by the very abundance of lawyers looking for people to sue.

so sue me! :D

[huskerlaw]

37. Legislators aren't always lawyers

Sure, a fair chunk are, but certainly not all of them. And if they do happen to be legally trained, they're not acting as lawyers, they're acting as legislators. Two totally different professions.

Meanwhile, the lawyers who do the suing are working under the framework they're given by the legislators. I know many lawyers who have had to sue someone under a law they disagree with. And others who wish they could sue, but the law doesn't support them. That's why there's such a high burnout rate.

I'm not saying that all lawyers are good. Of course they're not. Some are litigious bastards. But lawyers aren't responsible for shitty laws. Legislators are and those people may be legally trained or they may have previously run an Arabian horse association, there's no JD required.

My issue with your argument is that I don't believe that the lawyers...the ones you see in a courtroom...are the problem, overall. They're left to deal with the justice system as it is handed to them, by people who may or may not be legally trained.

[SPKrazy]

38. We'll Agree To Compromise Then

mebbe?

some lawyers in courtrooms are the problems

some legislators are the problem

some Arabian Horse Association leaders were the problem

Some failed businessmen in the oil patch are the problem

There are lots of problems, on that we agree.

I got no problem with lawyers on the whole, just the ones that give your profession a bad name, just as I have the ones in my profession who sleep with their clients/patients and give this mythology that we all sleep with our clients/patients :P

Litigious bastards and those who love them, and the legislators that whore to them, are the problems as well.

:rofl:

[huskerlaw]

39. Ok, agreed.

Although I would like to pin it all on that damned failed businessman from the oil patch.

Because that bastard deserves it.

;)

[SPKrazy]

40. Well he is the uhm, leader :rofl:

of it all ;)

[huskerlaw]

41. No, no...he's the DECIDER!

Get the title right, man!

Either way, it's all his fault. Because I said so. And because it actually probably is all his fault.

:rofl:

[SPKrazy]

42. he's the decider?

no not really :silly:

:wtf:

it is his fault

:rofl:

[huskerlaw]

43. Well, he says he is...

Regardless of title, definitely all his fault. ;)

[Gormy Cuss]

28. I'd give him the Gormy Cuss Look that Wishes it Could Kill (patent pending)

then shake my head and walk away. Sometimes people just forget that they're using their outside voice inside. I would imagine the lawyers were just blowing off steam but if the guy thought about it he may have toned it down a bit given his surroundings.

[SPKrazy]

32. wish i'd done that

it's just that i was nekkid, and getting dressed.

:rofl:

:grr:

[Gormy Cuss]

35. You're not good at multitasking, I take it.

:rofl:

[wildhorses]

29. spk --- ARE YOU NUTS???

taking on a lawyer??? he will sue your ass off and, drown you in legal papers if you are not careful!!

i am kinda serious here.

you need more information and i am not sure it is responsiblity to obtain it.

what is the old adage:

believe half of what you see and none of what you hear:shrug:

it sounds bad for the poor soul in prison, i agree. if anything i think the universe has called on you to seek him out.

LEAVE THE FUCKING LAWYERS ALONE:scared:

[SPKrazy]

31. see, that is what we've come to

we live in fear of lawyers and the power that they wield

i know several lawyers, and they are just people. i know one very well, a public defender in an unnamed location. stays stoned off his ass all the time.

how does he practice law? stoned out of his gourd? defending people who are in trouble for being stoned, possessing drugs, etc.

i will likely do nothing about this as i have so little info to go on.

:hug: