How come women are non-entities in most movies?

[Darth_Kitten]

Maybe that's one of the reasons I haven't seen a movie lately.

Name a movie where the plot is centred around a strong woman character and the men are in supporting roles. Women are usually the supportive wife, or girlfriend, or whatever. And don't give me those annoying romantic comedies, yuk!!!

Believe it or not Hollywood, women have hopes, dreams, aspirations and lives that don't totally revolve around men. And a few of them have made history. :eyes:

Just my rant. :(

[NewJeffCT]

1. The Queen with Helen Mirren

That was supposed to be pretty good.

But, I do agree that there is a dearth of movies with female leads if you venture outside the romantic-comedy field.

[Broken_Hero]

2. Xmen III

Jean Grey was...the main character, imo.

[Bucky]

22. It was all about Hugh Jackman. He got the pathos of having to kill the woman he loved.

The audience was supposed to identify with his character--she was played as a straight up victim of the powers she had.

[Broken_Hero]

70. I see it the other way around, basically

in the comics, Jean Grey Dark Phoenix saga, was all about her, which is what Xmen III tried, badly to imitate...Jean Grey was the driving force of the movie....no one could match her, no one could beat her, she allowed herself to be taken out, and in reality, she isn't dead either....:D

[Broken_Hero]

3. Million Dollar Baby

with Hilary Swank, and Clint Eastwood....

Where The Heart Is....

Monster....

[madeline_con]

4. What about the new one with Ashley Judd....

where she kick boxes the bad guy?

:shrug:

[Left Is Write]

64. Ashley Judd is a strong woman in "Double Jeopardy" also.

[wildhorses]

5. vera drake

[terrya]

6. Well, there's "The Hours"

Which basically involves 3 women who are the center of the stories. The men are all supporting characters to the women.

But I hear you. Most of the time in films it's what you said.

[Capn Amerika]

7. Veronica Guerin

Great movie.

[LostinVA]

8. How to Make an American Quilt

[Patiod]

35. Which got slammed critcally and tanked at the box office

I LOVED it - one of my favorite movies of all time. My adult women friends loved it - we were all crying at the end, even though the end isn't actually sad (none of us are fans of weepy romantic movies, either)

It got me so mad at the time to read poor review after poor review, all written by men. When a female movie critic slams war movies, she gets slammed back for "not getting it" (as happened recently - can't remember the critics who were involved), but male reviewers trash a movie like "American Quilt", no one seems to say anything.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

9. You should look for specific actresses.

Those who are often in better films featuring good roles for women -- I'm thinking people like Julianne Moore, Holly Hunter, etc. -- they rarely play the normal Hollywood roles for women.

[Ivan Sputnik]

10. Because men won't watch movies about women

but women will watch movies about men. This is a massive generalization, but it's one that Hollywood does base decisions on.

[Darth_Kitten]

11. Why is that?

Why do women find men interesting yet men can't be bothered finding women just as fascinating?

[Ivan Sputnik]

20. Why?

It goes to the root of the way people are socialized. It's considered OK for girls/women to identify with male characters, but not OK for boys/men to identify with female characters. And they feel uncomfortable when viewing a movie that forces them to identify with a woman. So they won't go to see a "chick flick" unless "dragged" to it. But I think many or most men DO identify with at least some female characters. You'll just have a hell of a time getting the straight ones to admit it.

[JVS]

82. Because "sisterhood of the fried green traveling pants & Louise" just doesn't do it for us

:evilgrin:

[CBHagman]

17. I realize they do that, but...

...I'm sick of discussion and reality being generalized out of existence. I think you know the things I'm talking about, such as pundits making grand declarations about what the "American people" want, or how "no one" listens to such-and-such a type of music or goes to the theater. :eyes: I'm not blaming you for the phenomenon, just commenting on how lazy such reasoning is.

Besides, no one's yet come up with an answer as to why some of the most macho men I've known really loved/love so-called chick flicks, especially Hollywood classics of the '30s, '40s, and '50s. The Production Code didn't allow all the crud today's films regard as necessary, like bathroom humor and the F-word, but guys still went to the movies.

Besides, Hollywood is having to rethink what it does right now, because they're finding some of the old formulas (like overpaying a so-called star) don't make economic sense either. And they'd be well advised to consider that huge portions of their audience are Hispanic and African-American; quite a bit of it is gay and lesbian; a huge segment of the population is aging; and that more than half the country is female. Just as TV pundits shouldn't act as though the U.S. population is 70 percent white male conservative, so too should producers remember that their entire audience isn't white males of a particular age and set of tastes.

[Bucky]

23. Not true. I watched "Personal Best".... several times.

:P

[mark414]

57. this is true

and before a bunch of men chime in with cries of outrage, that they are indeed a different breed of men that will watch such movies....in the generalization this is completely true. i don't think i'm what you'd call a sexist (though i am a dumb man so it admittedly happens sometimes) but i have little to no interest in female-centered movies outside of something that promises to be a titillating experience...

but i'm just being honest, so fess up dudes, cause you know it's right. do i necessarily like that part of me? not really, but i am what i am.

and for the record, thelma and louise was awesome.

[JVS]

83. I can and will watch some, but generally it has to be good

I am not going to sit through Sally Field's "Not without my Daughter" simply because it stars a woman.

"9 to 5" on the other hand is something I watch whenever it's on.

[Bullwinkle925]

12. "Monster" with Charlize Theron.

Strong female performances. Also, "Thelma and Louise" with Susan Sarandon and Geena Davis.

[Marie26]

58. Also, "North Country" nt

[YellowRubberDuckie]

65. Monster's not a good example of this.

IT was a movie about a serial killer. She wasn't strong, she was bat shit crazy.
Duckie

[Bullwinkle925]

75. I know that, Duckie .....

but, Hollywood did make a movie with a strong female presence - they rarely do that. It was a film carried strongly on female shoulders.
eom

[ghostsofgiants]

13. Dogville comes to mind.

And the Kill Bill movies.

And Silence Of The Lambs.

And Mulholland Drive, possibly.

[nytemare]

14. The Silence of the Lambs movies.

Yes indeedy.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

66. Thank God they didn't end Hannibal like the book...

It has the opposite of what the OP is looking for, although I do recommend reading it!
Duckie

[AngryAmish]

15. Aliens

[Skittles]

16. OMG MOVIE TRAILERS

the men, all importance and action, the women all on their backs, kissing or heaving bosom :puke:

[CBHagman]

18. Here are some ideas.

If you want central female characters (and some really good movies), try...

Nine Lives
Things You Can Tell Just by Looking at Her
Ten Tiny Love Stories
Chocolat (2000)
The Queen (still in theaters at this writing)
La Buche
Central Station
Career Girls
Lovely & Amazing
Secrets and Lies
Blue (1993)
A Very Long Engagement
Amelie
13 Conversations about One Thing
Sunshine State
Cradle Will Rock
Emma
Sense and Sensibility
Persuasion
Enchanted April
Pieces of April
The Last of the Blonde Bombshells
Mrs. Brown
Mrs. Henderson Presents
Calendar Girls

I realize that list includes examples from overseas and from quite a while back. Hollywood is indeed in a rut, partcularly where romantic comedies are concerned, and perhaps even comedy in general, let alone good old-fashioned melodramas. It's like the producers are all stuck in the eighth grade.

[Arugula Latte]

46. Amelie -- I just LOVED that movie.

:loveya:

[Flaxbee]

79. some of my favorite movies listed here ---

Chocolat, Secrets & Lies, Lovely % Amazing, all the Jane Austens, Mrs. Brown, Mrs. Henderson Presents, Calendar Girls.

I'd also add Elizabeth, In Her Shoes, Friends with Money, Laurel Canyon (with the fantastic Frances McDormand). Even Working Girl, with Sigourney Weaver and Melanie Griffith.

I understand the OP's point - but I think there are good movies being made, just not promoted to the extent the testosterone-based ones are, or given big budgets.

[Broken_Hero]

19. Underworld

and Underworld Evolution, Resident Evil, and Resident Evil Apocalypse...

[idgiehkt]

21. just about everything in visual media is geared toward making people feel.

That doesn't serve the truth well. Either they are trying to use sex to turn you on, or they are trying to make you feel deficient so you will buy something. They are all aiming for the demographic of males 18 to 49, seriously, and they are trying to entice them to think something or buy something by making them want to fuck something. That's really why the women are cardboard. Fuck it, read the book, lol.

[Bucky]

24. I once joked that all female Disney cartoons are either derivative of males or out to get married

Either they're complimentary arm candy for existing male cartoon characters (Daisy Ducky, Minnie Mouse) or they're destined to hook up with a dude... usually any dude will do (Cinderella, Belle from Beauty and the Beast, Lady from Lady and the Tramp, Pocahontas). After wracking our brains, my friend and I could come up with only three major Disney female characters who broke from this pattern: Clairabell Cow, Alice in Wonderland, and Bambi's mother. Mulan was a split decision, but even there the core message was fighting is what boys do unless it's a real emergency.

[Love Bug]

45. Yeah, but Bambi's mother was shot!

So what does that tell us?

[hfojvt]

25. Josie

and the Pussycats.

Thelma and Louise

The Matrix

"I think that Morpheus means more to me than he does to you, that if you are serious about rescuing him you are going to need my help and if you don't like it, I don't give a sh*t because I still outrank you and you are not going without me." Trinity

The Terminator

Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion

Short Circuit - arguably Stephanie is central to the story, and the first to recognize Johnny 5 as an individual and integral to bringing some of the scientists to her point of view.

[jpgray]

26. Sunset Boulevard, Lady in a Cage, The Passion of Joan of Arc for starters

Many many many many more.

[oberliner]

27. You ought to check out Thelma and Louise nt

[lukasahero]

37. Nothing personal but that movie is over 15 years old

Got anything a little more current?

[MissHoneychurch]

28. The Hours

Oh and the House of Spirits

[ScreamingMeemie]

29. Gone With the Wind... The Wizard of Oz..

Peggy Sue Got Married
Mask
Sabrina

[billyskank]

30. Hey!!!!!

:loveya:

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. Hey

:loveya:

[billyskank]

32. ...

:*

:hug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

33. !

:* :hug: :*

[JVS]

84. Get a room!

[Dastard Stepchild]

34. Because people write what they know...

And most screenwriters that actually catch a break are males? :shrug:

That's always been my guess. Which would also explain why the women on screen never really resemble a woman I would know or meet. They generally act in ways that men think women act, as opposed to acting in ways that a flesh'n'blood woman would actually behave.

[CBHagman]

36. Now that's an interesting question.

How often do male screenwriters write their fantasies of women, rather than what women really do/say?

Also, why are we going through such a weak period for romantic comedies? I can't think of a single wonderfully written, wonderfully cast, wonderfully paced and edited U.S. romantic comedy from the past few years, at least that I've actually gone to see in the theaters. My Netflix queue is another matter entirely!

Also, I'd be interested in hearing which screenwriters do get it right, according to DUers, so far as female characters go.

[Dastard Stepchild]

68. I hear you...

I really do enjoy a thoughtful romantic comedy... they can be delightfully sweet. Do you have some good recommendations?

As for female characters... I personally liked Scarlett Johansson's character in Lost in Translation. I found it really believable for who she was supposed to be... a young woman with a heady mixture of bravado and insecurity. Well played indeed.
Ummm.. Go Fish was a great take on Chicago lesbians living on the north side in the 90s. :)

Those are just two off the top of my head. I would have to sit and really think about female movie characters that did not give me a rash. But it is an excellent question indeed.

[CBHagman]

76. As I said, there aren't too many these days.

So many romantic comedies of late seem to be either A) formulaic or B) populated by unsympathetic characters or C) a bit misogynistic or D) stuck in eighth-grade humor.

For a good romance, you basically need a terrific screenplay, chemistry, and to strike a chord with the audience. The most recent romantic comedies that I really took a liking to were Jet Lag and La Buche, both by the same female director. Perhaps that says something about the state of play in the movies. Jet Lag is a bit formulaic but engaging. La Buche is quirky and there's no attempt to tie up all the loose ends.

[Patiod]

41. Which explains why hot movie chicks LOVE nebbishes

just like they do in real life!!!

I saw about 4 movies in a row on TV where these ultra hot pneumatic blondes fell madly in love with the little skinny, twitchy nebbishes. Guessing that most of the screenwriters who get produced weren't captains of their football teams.

[CBHagman]

48. It's much, much, much worse than that.

Not only do we see the double standard for male looks versus female looks, but there's the business of age discrimination.

In the first category, I recall that when actress Kathy Baker was in her 30s, she reported that she was passed over for a particular film role because she wasn't regarded as pretty enough to star opposite the leading man, who had ordinary to plain looks. She was too discreet to name names, but there you have it.

Kelly McGillis was also treated the same way, or so I've heard, during her early film career.

And do not get me started on ageism. USA Weekend did an article on the casting for a recent Harrison Ford film, and the reporter positively gushed over the fact that Ford was starring in a movie opposite actress Virginia Madsen, now age 45. This was depicted as refreshingly progressive and open-minded -- the very idea that Ford would condescend to appear opposite an actress in her 40s. You'd think the guy had saved a thousand African children from dehydration.

There's only only problem with that little scenario. Ford is a Beatle-esque 64 years old. So the implication is that an actress two decades his junior is not a conventional casting choice, that normally the role would go to someone younger. :puke:

As far as I'm concerned, any actor would be lucky to play opposite Virginia Madsen or, for that matter, over-50 actresses such as Helen Mirren, Charlotte Rampling, and Susan Sarandon.

GET OVER IT, Hollywood.

[Dastard Stepchild]

69. Mmmm-hmmm.. yes... completely...

Why, I see it every single day. :eyes:

:D

[kwassa]

38. Most movies are produced and directed by men, the real reason

[Tyrone Slothrop]

39. Go see Volver

It's a Spanish movie by Almodovar. Should still be in some theaters. It's all about women, and it's quite good.

As far as films about women go, they are out there, but you're right. They're not as common as those about men. Largely due to the facts that A) most screenwriters are men and write about what they know and B) the biggest demographic of moviegoers are males between ages 16-25 or so...and they're not really looking for interesting character studies and the like.

[CBHagman]

51. Pedro Almodovar and Rodrigo Garcia...

...appear to specialize in films about women.

[lildreamer316]

40. I just want to know why they are treated as

dumbasses who will fall for ANYBODY. Like they don't have enough will to tell the 'bad guy' to go to hell more than once. It seems that after a couple of tries he will be able to seduce her into his arms and she will go willingly.
WHATEVER.
I would fight tooth and nail literally.
Thanks for the vote of confidence; boys.:eyes:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. art imitates life and life imitates TV

[SteppingRazor]

43. The Long Kiss Goodnight....

wherein Geena Davis kicks incredible ass and even Samuel Motherfuckin' Jackson has to struggle to even keep up.

[Broken_Hero]

77. Damn, forgot about that movie....

I enjoy the action movies, where the woman is the...well, enforcer...:D Aka, Underworld, Resident Evil, Long Kiss Goodnight...

[Nye Bevan]

44. "Bound"

*Two* strong women who get the better of the guy.

[soleft]

47. 10 years ago a producer told me to not write about women

If I wanted to sell a script.

And I think things have actually gotten worse.

[Avalux]

49. I love "Red Eye" - main character kicks ass.

Rachel McAdams plays a smart, tough heroine who outwits her tormentor - she's great and so is the movie. :hi:

[mentalsolstice]

50. Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants

Yes, it's about teens, but my mom (67 and I (46) really enjoyed it.

[begin_within]

52. Well, here's one for ya...

[MonkeyFunk]

53. just in the last few months...

Devil Wears Prada, Dreamgirls, The Queen, Volver, Freedom Writers....

[Bullwinkle925]

54. Now that I've read your post a second time - I understand what you're asking.

Not that there aren't any movies made with strong women in the leading roles - just why there aren't more. I don't know. Are you thinking in terms of straight dramatic stories, such as 'Death of a Salesman' or 'To Kill a Mockingbird'? I suppose that most dramas (esp. those taken from books) are more lucrative when there is a strong male role. I can only think of a few exceptionally strong female movies from books:
"Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe"
"Beloved"
"Little Women" are some. I belong to a book club (all women) and we tend to choose books that are primarily from a woman's point of view. We have had the occasional male-themed book.
I was wondering the other day why we don't have a balance in our selections. I try not to let gender persuade me when I'm choosing a movie as I'm a huge film addict.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. Kill Bill.

[Marie26]

56. It actually seems worse

than in the 30's-50's. I can think of a lot of old movies that featured on a strong female protagonist - "Gone With the Wind", "The Philadelphia Story," "All About Eve," "Adam's Rib", etc. Now, it seems like women are relegated to either "chick flicks", or "hot chick" roles.

[LSK]

59. North Country

[Gormy Cuss]

60. Oh please, let's throw in the romantic comedies too.

Many involve the modern equivalent of the Taming of the Shrew, with shrewishness replaced by women who are independent and self reliant and living as if they don't need a man until the male lead shows them the error of their wicked ways.

Those plots are almost as annoying as the ones where the goodly woman "saves" the bad boy.

There are good films with strong female characters who don't fit into either of the above categories but they are rare among the Hollywood films.

[LSK]

61. V for Vendetta

Arguably.

[Marie26]

62. Eh.

Except when Evie is tortured by the hero until she's enlightened enough.

[LSK]

63. she is still arguably the main character

[unpossibles]

85. I know what you mean but I also think that the idea goes beyond sexist intent

the idea of someone having to break down their barriers through some hardship or training is a pretty common plot device, and also happens in real life in my experience (not that it happens like it does in the movie, but that people really do have very hard to deal with experiences that change their world view).

I see V as not being about a man, but about an idea, which is why we never see his face, just a mask.

[rbnyc]

67. Resident Evil 1 and 2

I know what you mean, tho. And usually if a woman is the central character, it's about the fact that she's a woman--it's more about what she is than who she is or what she does.

[edbermac]

71. Watch Lifetime cable network, they have strong women.

Because usually all the men are portrayed as alchoholics, drug addicts, child molestors, wife beaters, cheating dogs, degenerate gamblers and various combinations of such.

Plus, they always leave the toilet seat up.

[Shell Beau]

72. I think there are more out there than we think!

At least there are more in the recent years!

[u4ic]

73. Strong character roles

aren't always leads. In fact, most aren't.

Still, what I've seen of Hollywood, there are few strong female roles. (I don't watch much Hollywood). You will find some if you broaden your film horizons. :hi:

[philosophie_en_rose]

74. Even when a woman is the lead, she is often obsessing over men.

or simply the object that the men are fighting over (see Xmen).

[CanuckAmok]

78. Jackie Brown, Kill Bill, Dogville, Basic Instinct, the Alien franchise, Halloween, the Queen,

Prime Suspect, any number of teen slasher films. If you notice, all those Halloween/Friday the 13th/Texas Chainsal massacre movies follow the formula of women using their resourcefulness to escape (supporting) male characters.

[cemaphonic]

80. Female character actors aren't really cultivated.

Many of the really substantial roles (if not highest-profile) in films are played by character actors, especially outside of genre movies.

1) Actors of both genders are cast mostly for looks early in their career, and have a pretty short shelf life as big stars. The really talented ones and the fan favorites can still get lead roles once they start aging, but even the moderately-skilled men can continue to get steady work in character roles for decades.

2) Less handsome but very talented men (John Tuturro, Phillip Seymour Hoffman) can build a pretty respectable career, and popular following entirely on character roles. And there are always several of these guys in development. Female character actors at the same level of exposure are people like Julianne Moore (who *is* beautiful) and Frances McDormand (married to a talented, prolific and well-liked director/writer/producer). Raw talent doesn't seem to be enough of an edge.

From here it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. Scriptwriters and casting directors cast more men in these roles because there is a better-marketed pool of men than women. But since the roles are going to men, the actresses aren't really developed and marketed to the point that the writers and directors will write more roles for them.

All that said, outside of big-budget genre flicks, there are plenty of good female roles. Lots of good recommendations upthread.

[CBHagman]

81. So let's get out there and write some good parts!

To be fair, there are good screenwriters working today, but part of the problem has been simply that more roles have been written for men than for women.

Stage actors go through this all the time. They're practically dragging in men off the street to fill roles in a Shakespearean play, but women have to compete for a handful of roles. No wonder I've seen some non-traditional casting in local productions (i.e., with a reverse-Elizabethan casting where the WOMEN take on male roles).

The other thing is that there is no studio system anymore. This is both good and bad (Let's face it: If the studio system protected and cultivated talents, it also destroyed and confined them).

A poster upthread mentioned that many of the great films of the 1930s and '40s offered great parts for women. True enough, but we tend to remember the good stuff. Hollywood also cranked out forgettable movies as well. And as for the attitude towards women and minorities, well, let's save that for another thread.

[Mendocino]

86. Emma Thompson in Howards End.

She won the Oscar for this role.

[evirus]

87. Macross 2

two lead women roles
an ace fighter pilot and a kidnapped alien
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMyqpq9gKQQ