How can we stop christianity?

[Courtesy Flush]

Seriously. It's done more damage than I can possibly document in one post. It's certainly more evil than Satan.

Let's formulate a plan... How do we eliminate this virus from our planet?

[Aristus]

1. Ouch!

Please don't try to eliminate Christianity. You'd be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Which is my way of saying you'd eliminate your friends (like me!) along with your perceived enemies.

Christianity is not the enemy. People pretending to be Christians in order to secure wealth, power and privilege at the expense of others are the enemy.

edited for spelling.

[AirmensMom]

5. My thoughts exactly.

:thumbsup:

[wildhorses]

22. hey you

sorry i haven't called...lots going on my way :hug::hi:

[AirmensMom]

26. Hey you, too!

Good to see you! :loveya: :hug: :hi:

[lizziegrace]

13. Same here

Don't belittle or discount my beliefs simply because they do not agree with yours. My faith has made me a better person and enhanced who I am. BTW, I wouldn't ever force my beliefs on anyone. I'm liberal, intelligent and *gasp*... I can read.

[Courtesy Flush]

14. But what would a reasonable christian believe?

The bible is replete with demands to subjugate women, and stories glorifying mass murder. Do reasonable christians reject the bible's teachings? If so, are they really christians?

[lizziegrace]

16. The books of the Bible were written by humans

Namely men, who interpreted the stories based on their view of the world. I believe in the overall message, not necessarily the particulars.

[liontamer]

27. christ never said anything in favor of subjugating women

in fact he spoke (and acted) against it. I try to follow Christ's teachings and I think I am "really" a Christian.

[Ptah]

28. Please, show where Christ said any of that.

Quoting you:

"demands to subjugate women, and stories glorifying mass murder

[Courtesy Flush]

35. Um, old testament, which the christians follow

I didn't say jesus said it. I said christians do.

[speedoo]

43. Many Christians ignore the Old Testament.

Most Christians focus the belief and faith around the teachings of Jesus. The Old Testamant is far less important, and for many Christians, practically irrelevant except as it relates to the prophets who foretold Jesus' eventual existence.

[Ptah]

64. I'm a christian, and I have never said that.

You not grok.


Why would you want to stop these christians?





"They will neither hunger nor thirst, nor will the desert
heat or the sun beat upon them. He who has compassion on them
will guide them and lead them beside springs of water."

-- Isaiah 49:10


http://www.humaneborders.org/news/news4.html

[Road Scholar]

75. Hypocrisy is the enemy. eom

[caty]

2. Why stop a christianity?

We need to stop any religion that is not non-violent. Pacifist religions only!

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mainegreen]

4. I've thought about this myself. Conclusion: real problem is the existance of 'church'.

As an atheist, I view religion as silly. But people have a right to believe what they want. And generally the beliefs of one don't cause the problem. It's when it's allowed to organize, form leaders and the like that the nice qualities of religion tend to be subverted into moral depravity.

IMHO.

[idgiehkt]

6. I think the only realistic plan is education

with a strong focus on the sciences. Also...continuing to support womens' causes like feminism, trying to get childhood recognized as the most important stage of a person's life emotionally and helping people deal with their childhood traumas (I don't think it's any coincidence that people in extremely strict religions either have been abused or abuse their own children or both) and stop telling them to get over it. Protect children from sex offenders and develop a program for rehabilitation of sex offenders.

Although there are kinds of xtianity that are new-agey and soft compared to fundamentalism, I think that these destructive religions all appeal to people who have had their psyches destroyed by childhood cruelty and abuse and they can't access the part of their brain that deals with thinking for themselves without having to relive some abominable things, so they just don't; instead, they look for outside sources to replace their critical thinking aparatus like churches and cults (may be redundant).

[LadyoftheRabbits]

7. Many heinous things have been done in the "name" of many religions...

Christianity being one of them. The trick resides in being able to seperate the lies from the message of peace people like Jesus brought. I don't identify myself as Christian, but I respect many of those who believe in it (my mother, for example, who is neither naive nor ill educated) and the tenets it follows.

[Courtesy Flush]

8. That assumes there really was a jesus

there's no reason to believe he ever existed. Watch "the god who wasn't there" for some really good insight.

[LadyoftheRabbits]

9. There was an idea.

That's all many people need. Please don't discount someone's beliefs simply because too many in this country have thrown it around for their own needs.

[cwydro]

11. I always thought it was pretty well decided that he did live -

whether he was the "son of god" is the question, I always thought.

[Courtesy Flush]

23. Sure, they like to say that

Okay, jesus lived. He walked on water, turned water into wine, and raised the dead. Then... no one wrote a word about him for 30-40 years. That's right. Christianity started a full generation after jesus' death. A few old guys claimed that he lived "back before you whippersnappers were born". No one was in a position to deny it by that time.

St Paul, the major founder of the church, wrote more about the J-man than anybody else, but he never once wrote a word indicating that he thought jesus was a real person who walked the earth. How can this be? If he lived during jesus' time, and knew people who met jesus?

[ThomCat]

36. The roman empire kept a huge amounts of records

and yet, the census that's mentioned in the Jesus story never happened the way the bible says. Nobody was ever instructed to go to their place of birth to be counted. They counted people where they lived, not where they were born.

There's no record in any census, or in any contemporary documents of Jesus. He is not documented as having been born or having lived anywhere. Only the bible itself says he existed. If he existed and did the things he was claimed to have done (even the non-miraculous things) he would have been mentioned in some document somewhere.

I'd love to see some historical evidence that Jesus existed. But none has ever been produced. I understand that there is such evidence of the apostles though.

Then you take into account that the life of Jesus includes a lot of elements of classic pagan mythologies. It seems at least possible (and maybe likely) that he was a manufactured spokesperson for a new religion. He was the Ronald McDonald of 2000 years ago, created to sell a product.

[speedoo]

52. Can you document any of that, Thom?

I'll choose to ignore your last sentence. It makes your post offensive, and adds nothing whatsoever to the point you are trying to make, IMHO.

[L A Woman]

No...

accounts of his life and teachings came from several very separate sources and were similar enough to reasonably assume that this person existed. For example, the Sermon on the Mount has some slight differences in different books of the Bible, but it would be like you and I describing the same concert...there would be a few differences in the way we perceived it, but it's close enough.

But the question of whether or not he existed is as valid as whether or not the Holocaust happened. In other words, it's silly -there is plenty of historical evidence that Jesus existed but we live in a generation of people who can't wrap their brains around anything if it isn't on DVD. And trust me, once everyone is dead who remotely remembers the Holocaust, half the population will not believe it ever happened and will say the evidence is photoshopped.

But the whole argument is so ridiculous...SOMEBODY said these beautiful (and very LIBERAL, by the way) things...so who was it, then? And does it matter that he really wasn't born of a virgin or walked on water?

[WhollyHeretic]

60. It is not the same as people questioning the Holocaust

That is absurd. We have videos of the Holocaust and hundreds of thousands of first-hand accounts.

There is no proof of Jesus written by anyone during the time he lived. The only written accounts are long after his supposed death.

[Ptah]

10. Vote Republican.

O8)

[nini]

12. Christianity isn't the problem

Some of its nutjob 'followers' are.

People who really believe in the teachings don't do the crap you're speaking of.


Organized religion is what we need to squash.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. The trouble with that is that it takes organization to DO the good things

that churches do.

The food program for street youth that I refer to below didn't just happen. It was a deliberate creation of an organized church that saw a need. It takes a lot of money (provided out of the church budget), a lot of legwork (to run around getting as much donated food as possible to keep costs down), and volunteer labor (cooking for a crowd of about 100, not to mention serving and clean-up). And that's just ONE program.

[nini]

76. I meant on the level of Pat Robertson etc..

those huge congregations that are business based.

I should have been more clear. I agree with you.

[lizziegrace]

80. Same here Nini

I read a terrific book a few years ago "Stealing Jesus, How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity". Pat Robertson and company have created the antithesis of the teachings of Christ. He is using Christ to amass millions and control others.

[spillthebeans]

15. It started as a good thing against the Roman Empire

but was co-opted after some time and led to the dark ages .....


Many people going to church don't have a clue what it's about...especially those who think Bush is a christian... oh boy


education is key, in fact

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. As one who just came back from volunteering at a church program that

fed about 100 street kids on a 15 degree night without any proselytizing (but with baked zitti, either meat or vegetarian, garlic bread, broccoli-cauliflower-carrot mix, salad, and cake with ice cream), as well as providing a drop-in center, again with no proselytizing, and who knows what else just the downtown mainstream churches do for society, including providing free or low-cost space for a number of worthwhile organizations, part of me wishes that your childish wish would come true, so that you could see just what such a society would be like.

[idgiehkt]

21. I don't think human charity and kindess spring from religion though

I think those are human traits. It's wonderful what that church does, but to say that those things wouldn't happen without that particular strain of belief being in the world probably isn't accurate.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. But the churches take the initiative in organizing it

In my experience, it is quite uncommon for a bunch of secular people to get together and do something like this, although it does happen, such as with Picnic in the Park in Portland.

Even organizations such as Meals on Wheels or Habitat for Humanity, which have no denominational affiliation, get most of their volunteers from churches.

You know who does most of the charitable work in Japan? The Buddhists, and the Christians, too, out of proportion to their numbers.

[idgiehkt]

47. I wonder about that

I really don't know, honestly about the comparison between secular and religious charity. I do know that my parents church does alot of charity things but with the aim of conversion as part of the package. I think your statement that Buddhists in Japan are doing the charity work is telling that it isn't the religion but the type of individual drawn to spirituality in general, and group spiritually more so, that is what accounts for that kind of activity. Because religion generally depends on the government of the state of the land in which it is practiced, and religions get replaced over and over each time a state is conquered. The same people keep on doing the same good deeds, just in the name of whatever God the current state allows them to worship.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. But not all churches proselytize with their charitable works

You're right in that it's the spiritual people working with other spiritual people in an organizational framework that supports their efforts.

[idgiehkt]

57. on this we agree

My issue has always been how religion reinforces state strictures on the more vulnerable in society like women and children. I am especially concerned about religious indoctrination of children, because they can't distinguish between myth and reality.

[Race4Peace]

18. rapture= SUCK 'EM UP!

yeah, we don't want 'em, so go, shoo freeps! and take your uppidy thou art holier bullshit with ye!

[lizziegrace]

20. I hope this means you're not assuming all Christians

are freepers?

[Race4Peace]

33. no, there are good ones...

that's why i mentioned freeps go up, and we can keep the good christians around here. you know, what the lord would call a cleansing of the wicked?

[lizziegrace]

37. I was hoping that's what you meant

:)

[rug]

19. I prefer to stop capitalism.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Now you're onto something...

Runaway greed is the real enemy here.

(Oh, and despite what Marx says, in today's America, team sports are the opiate of the people.)

[rug]

39. Oh, you're making way too much sense tonight.

:thumbsup:

[KamaAina]

25. Didn't the Soviets already try that?

And wasn't their attempt a "miserable failure"?

Think about it.

[Courtesy Flush]

31. They also tried space travel

If we're going to jump onto specious arguments that "if the soviets did it, it's all wrong" then space travel was a bad idea, as is art and chess, which the soviets supported.

Their error was in forcing religion out of society, rather than showing how destructive it is, so people aren't mislead by x-tian guilt trips.

[KamaAina]

42. But their space travel was a success

Yuri Gagarin, Sputnik, Mir, etc., etc. The point wasn't that "if the Soviets did it, it's bad" but "the Soviets tried it and fell flat on their buttskys".

[idgiehkt]

34. I think they replaced it with the state

I don't think that religion and authoritarianism/totalitarianism are that different. It's all worship of a Daddy-figure in a Daddy-cult,and there may even be some biological imperative in the human brain that compels us to direct feelings of submission toward an alpha male...I wonder about this alot. It may not even be a totally bad thing, and Jesus is certainly one of the most feminized Daddy figures in patnernalistic religious history, but in it's extreme it is incredibly destructive to society and the planet. To this day there are people in Russia who worship Stalin and see him the same way some Americans see Reagan (not making a comparison between the leaders, just their followers). I think this knee-jerk authoritarism is just a way for people with terrible conflict in their psyches to 'put themselves to sleep', so to speak, and follow blindly because it is less painful.

[wildhorses]

30. ---

:eyes:

[Redstone]

38. Why the FUCK would I want to "stop Christianity?" It's none of my fucking business

if someone else wants to be a Christian.

It's not for me (or you) to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't believe.

Redstone

[lizziegrace]

41. Thank you.

:hug:

[Redstone]

50. You're welcome. A flamebait statement like that pisses me off, no matter that

I'm not a Christian. Well, I don't got to church or pray, anyway. But I do listen to The Big Guy's teachings.

But screw it, the OP could have said Zoroastrianism, and I'd still be honked off.

Redstone

[idgiehkt]

54. well, as a little girl that was sexually abused and

then taught by the church that I was whore, and who continued to be exposed to predators on the premise of christian family loyalty and who when I pulled away from and resisted the predators around me was taught that I was being 'disrespectful to my elders', and who cried and prayed herself to sleep every night between the ages of 8-10 because I thought I was a) pregnant and going to be stoned to death like Mary, or b) going to hell through no fault of my own, I think that most of religious indoctrination, especially with regards to female sexuality, is not only disgustingly, appallingly psychologically abusive to children (especially with regards to teachings about Satan and hell) but also some of the most fucked up, perverted shit that the mind of humankind ever produced. I'm all for religion with one caveat: not under the age of 18. Let adults pick and choose what religion they want to be when they are psychologically capable of discerning the difference between myth and reality. Don't indoctrinate the delicate, angelic psyche of a child with this incredibly twisted, perverted bullshit.

The image of Christ on the cross is one of the most violent, sadomasochistic images in modern culture, yet there are people who freak out about Janet Jackson's boob or Britney's vagina who have no problem whatsoever about letting their children look at that image. It's disturbing, to say the least.

[Karenca]

59. ......

:thumbsup: :hi:

[northernsoul]

61. I'm very sorry to hear about that

I'd encourage you to check out www.exchristian.net to find some kindred spirits. I hope you're on a path to healing.

[Redstone]

63. My wife was also damaged (and badly) by the Catholic Church and its attitude,

but that was also because she grew up in a backward (in fact, barely civilized) and morally corrupt society...this was what allowed the Church in the country to be as bad as it was.

How many young girls have been scarred for life by genital mutilation? Many, many. But does anyone call to "stop the religions" that include this despicable practice?

I don't like the Catholic church myself. But that does not mean I'll endorse the idea of "stopping Christianity." Like I said, NOTHING give me the right to tell anyone else what to believe or not to.

By the way, I'm sorry you went through what you did.Nobody should ever have to suffer that way.

Redstone

[idgiehkt]

70. I grew up Southern Baptist Fundamentalist, not Catholic

The point is that the church reinforced my suffering with it's teaching, protected the predators, and allowed me to shoulder the blame. This kind of paternalistic organizational structure always does, no matter what label it is practicing under. I'd like to see an end to all religions like this, so no, I would not limit myself to just calling for an end to Christianity. I think there is a tremendous problem society faces with 'telling people what to believe' vs. stepping in and enforcing established laws that protect children from abuse; for instance much of what has recently come to light about the problem of sexual abuse of girls in mennonite and amish groups, and the repeating patterns of abuse in religious polygamist areas like Utah and Arizona. I, for one, will always be on the side of the child against whatever church is protecting his or her abusers from responsibility.

[Redstone]

77. Yes, MANY religions have a structure that promotes and/or protects abuse.

I'd guess there are a few that don't, confucianism and Buddhism come to mind, but there ARE an awful lot of bad ones.

Redstone

[L A Woman]

40. most. ignorant. OP. ever.

christianity is responsible for an awful lot of the good in the world - that some people have misused it is another story.

[speedoo]

48. I have to agree.

And your post, L A Woman, is among the best in this hideous thread.

[Hosnon]

67. Yeah...it's at worst a wash between the bad and good it has done. nt

[Left Is Write]

44. I'm trying to come up with a polite response to this.

So far, I have been unable to.

[Redstone]

46. Why would you feel a need to be polite in response to such arrogance and ignorance?

Redstone

[hfojvt]

45. Oh thank God

I thought maybe I was exxagerating.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2834774#2836611

[Ariana Celeste]

49. How about ending ignorance and hate.

-Atheist.

[Ptah]

51. Your ignorance of christianity seems boundless.

:thumbsdown:

[AirmensMom]

55. If I made the same post

asking "How can we stop atheism?", I'd be flamed to a crisp. Yes, there are some people proclaiming to be Christians who do evil things. Some men do evil things ... should we stop all men? Some white people do evil things ... should we stop all white people? Christianity is "more evil than Satan"? Has it occurred to you that the evil being done in the name of Christianity might actually come from Satan? It certainly doesn't come from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

It's posts like this one that make me want to stay away from DU more and more. Perhaps they should just be up front and post a "Christians not welcome" rule. :shrug:

[Ptah]

56. Here are some links to some of those christians you want to stop.

http://www.humaneborders.org/news/news4.html

http://www.humaneborders.org/

[mike_c]

58. lots of replies in this thread are variants of "don't discount others' beliefs..."

...but what if their beliefs are fundamentally wrong? Should we not discount the beliefs of someone who insists the earth is flat, for example? Should we respect the beliefs of racists, or nazis, or (insert your favorite nutball belief here)? I recently had a discussion with someone who stated that they didn't believe insects are animals, and when I showed them where insects fit phylogenetically into the animal kingdom they replied that "beliefs differ" about that. Was I supposed to respect their patently foolish point of view simply because they believed it?

I'm an atheist, but I'm also a scientist, so I work with data and evidence for a living. I work in a profession that takes little on faith, insists on seeing the evidence, and when it does fill in the gaps with assumptions-- our word for "faith"-- it defines them clearly so that they can be dispelled more easily if the data warrant.

The point is that we do NOT have to accept other peoples' beliefs if they cannot provide evidence in support of them-- evidence that is clear and unequivocal, not nebulous and ill-defined. Someone's sense of the spiritual might be nothing more than a brain anomaly, or it might represent a communications pathway straight to the Big Kahuna-- either possiblity is equally likely in the absence of evidence, no matter how confident someone is that god is perched on their right shoulder.

[lizziegrace]

62. I respect your beliefs

you don't have to accept mine. I'm not forcing you to. But don't pat me on the head and assume I'm a lesser person because I believe in something you cannot prove scientifically.

[mike_c]

65. that's not the issue-- can YOU prove it...?

And if you can't, why should I accept it as a possibly valid model of how the universe works?

[philosophie_en_rose]

69. You don't have to accept it.

I don't, but no one has an obligation to me to prove that their religion is true.

As long as no one makes it my business, it's really not my concern.

[mike_c]

79. exactly my point....

eom

[lizziegrace]

71. Why should I have to defend my beliefs?

They're mine. I'm not forcing them on you. Don't pity me because scientifically it seems to be stupid in your view. I'm not ashamed or embarassed to believe.

[Hosnon]

72. It should make sense to you:

We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. Science (such as the roundness of the Earth and the classification of insects as animals) is just about as "fact" as humans can expect.

Religion? Not so much. There is very little evidence that God does exist or that he doesn't. (And no you can't prove a negative...which is all the more reason that the belief in God is not something you can be "wrong" about.)

When I say wood is not solid all you have to do is smack me with it. When I say God exists...you're pretty much SOL.

[GirlinContempt]

81. Holy crap someone with a brain

:D bravo

[philosophie_en_rose]

66. Start a rival religion. (Step 1: Send a dollar to me).

:shrug:

Seriously, I think religion is as harmful as the next atheist, but I don't think Christianity is quite as narrow as fundamentalist yahoos.

(Though - with all due respect - contemporary Christian pop music is a virus that must be stopped) :)

[deadparrot]

68. The atheist Soviets did an awful lot of killing themselves.

I'm not a believer in any sort of organized religion, but Christianity is far from the only thing that has done damage to this world.

And FYI: using the words "eliminate" and "virus" in reference to living, breathing human beings is more than a little creepy and conjures up some pretty horrific historical images.

[WhollyHeretic]

73. This is not the way to foster any sort of meaningful debate.

I am a pretty much life-long atheist with very little respect for religion. I do have respect for religious people who do good works and fight for equality. Posting this just causes rifts among people who are our allies. Honestly, I would rather religion disappeared from this world but I see this thread as nothing but divisive and a needless attack on liberal christians.

[tinfoil tiaras]

74. I wanna watch this...

:popcorn:

All religions have their good and bad, imho. Christianity isnt evil. Neither is Islam or Judaism or anything.

[ZombieNixon]

78. How can we stop Islam?

How can we stop Judaism?
How can we stop Hinduism?
How can we stop atheism?
How is your post any different from those questions?

You cannot paint an entire religion with such a broad brush as to make every one of it's practitioners into a pariah. Obviously billions of people on this planet are infected with a "virus" that must be eradicated. :eyes:

Note: I am not a Christian...I'd call myself agnostic, and that's if I'm feeling spiritual that day.

[Generator]

Since 9/11, and the fundamentalist takeover of America by the Right

I have been particularly AGAINST religion. Which wasn't always the case. I used to find much of Christianity a possible hope for humanity. It wasn't being against gay marriage, or abortion or electing Rick Santorum. It was about being decent and loving and being better than your base self. It was about evolving and trying to LOVE your enemy.

So I needed a new avatar and the Jesus appealed to me. I'm tired of politicians at this point. Very, very tired. I'm trying to remember the BEST part of Christianity this season. And it's not about crucification, rising from the dead, the Bible or being saved, not about life after death. It's about here and now. It's about the words, the deeds, and feeling of love from Jesus. Which is still (underneath the years of crap and horror) really real.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

82. Locking

This is just plain inappropriate, and inflammatory.

Sincerely submitted,
CaliforniaPeggy
DU Moderator