Question for scholars of Christianity

[jmowreader]

Yes, I am full of questions for religious practitioners this morning. Or afternoon. Whatever.

Anyway, today's question is about Mark 10:17-22, Matthew 19:16-22 and Luke 18:18-23. The parable of the rich man.

The three Gospels tell the story differently, but the gist is that a rich man approached Jesus and asked him for the keys to Heaven. Jesus told him he must follow the Commandments. The rich man affirmed that he had been following the Commandments, then Jesus told him to sell everything he had and give the money to the poor, for only then he would have eternal life. At that time the rich man, saddened, turned away as he had many possessions.

Would it be possible that Jesus was really telling the rich man "go away, get lost"? That He knew the rich man wouldn't do as Jesus demanded?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. I don't think so

because God always offers His bounty to all humankind, whether it is done directly or through a prophet like Jesus. Besides, the point was to let even the rich know that they have a chance to find the Way. Remember that the Buddah said that the problems of mankind come from attachment, and the way to peace is through getting rid of attachments. These can be big (like riches) or small. As you see, the theme of God vs attachment is one that is found in more than Christianity.

[Cheswick2.0]

11. Just like the golden rule

some thing are universal

[LanternWaste]

2. Here's one explanation I've run across in the past.

I'm no scholar, but have run across this in a book entitled "Alleged Inconsistencies of the Bible" (author's name escapes me at the moment) and the answer goes something like this...

Look back on the things He had previously said during His ministry, "...Hope, Love and Charity, but the greatest among these is Charity". It was argued by the author that a man who has a life of worldly riches is not, by definition a charitable man (for if he were, he would not be rich having given the vast majority of his possession's to the needy).

In addition to this, the author also stated that (in his experience), the wealthy people he was familiar with put more of their faith in worldly goods and riches at the expense of their faith in God.

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree or disagree with the author's position, merely that it was thought-provoking to my little brain and appeared (at least on the surface) as a valid explanation for what Jesus had said.


(If it becomes relevant, I'm sure I can dig up the book and get the author's name if you want to get a copy of it. It's actually kinda interesting)

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. "Hope, Love, and Charity..."

This is from 1 Corinthians 13, which was written by Paul, and isn't the words of Jesus Christ. And actually the three things he describes as the "greatest" are "Faith, Hope, and Love" OR "Faith, Hope, and Charity", depending on which translation of the Bible you're reading. I don't speak a word of Greek, so I'm not sure what his orignal intention was.

In any event though, this chapter is probably the best thing Paul ever wrote, and considering he wrote a huge chunk of the New Testament, that's saying a lot. Either way you interpret the verse, it's a lesson the Religious Reich types could learn from even today.

[LanternWaste]

6. Or anyone for that matter, regardless of faith or lack of faith.

"Either way you interpret the verse, it's a lesson the Religious Reich types could learn from even today."

Or anyone for that matter, regardless of faith or lack of faith.

[Bertha Venation]

12. I Cor 13 -- definitely the best thing Paul ever wrote

and the only thing he ever wrote that I take seriously.

[AntiCoup2K4]

3. Well, if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God....

...then it follows that Jesus knew what the man's response would be even before he asked Jesus the question. And, like most other times when Jesus was asked questions, the person asking wasn't alone. Meaning that the answers Christ gave them were not just for the person asking, but intended for the crowd watching as well, which usually included the Pharisees or other members of the Jewish "religious right" of that day. I don't have a Bible in front of me at the moment, but it's possible that Nicodemus or Joseph of Arimathea may have been witness to this conversation. Both were wealthy men who became followers of Jesus, in fact, the tomb that Jesus was laid in for three days actually belonged to Joseph. Guess maybe Joseph knew He wouldn't need it permanently?

[amberdisc]

4. camel

Telling him to go away? - not at all. He knows that a preoccupation with material possessions and other material matters prevents spiritual realization.
Like he said: it easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or woman) to reach the Kingdom of God (a spiritual state).

[Bertha Venation]

13. exactly, amberdisc

"He knows that a preoccupation with material possessions and other material matters prevents spiritual realization."

Exactly.

Also, the word translated "camel" has more recently (and some think, more accurately) been translated as "rope." IMO it makes the analogy more believable -- even as it's clear, it's equally impossible for a camel or a rope to pass through a needle's eye.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. There's also...

those small gates in some town walls back then that were called "needle's eyes."

Camels could fit through the main gates, but not through the little ones.

It makes a lot more sense now, eh?

[mikehiggins]

7. prescience vs preordination

This is a recurrent problem with religion, especially with those who believe that Christ was in fact God-made-flesh.

God is defined in this tradition as being all powerful and all knowing. Why, therefore, would He seem to be giving a choice to a man, even when He already knew the man's reply?

The simple answer is the He had to give him the choice. It was up to the man to make the decision. The fact that God knew what he would choose does not change the fact that the man had to make that decision for free will to have any meaning at all.

Those of us who are parents ourselves have seen this, most likely, in our own children. We know what they will do in a given situation but we have to let them do it because that is the only way they can learn.
Of course we can always be surprised if our child makes the right decision but we have to allow them to make bad decisions (and if that decision is not clearly wrong, as in going to the coed sleepover at home where both parents are habitually drunk) we should let them deal with the consequences of that decision. Sometimes, since we are only human, it turns out for the best even though we were fully expecting the worst.

God, knowing for a certainty how things will work out, still has to let His creation decide for himself what he will do, even knowing that the decision may lead to that person being lost to Him forever.

You know, when you think it through, being God must suck.

[xchrom]

8. it's the where is the treasure

of your heart lesson.
jesus uses the faithful and shakes them up -- reminds them that god's kingdom is not of this world.
it's a lesson both of materialism and detachment or attachment{however you want to look at it}
the young man was a faithful person -- but his faith was anchored in this world. so it's not just a rich man's possesions that can tie him down -- but his attachment to this world.
jesus reminds him{we all know} that to follow the spiritual road he will have to keep his heart on god. a difficult and humbling experience.

[Loco_moco]

Check out this page...

http://liberalslikechrist.org/christlike/index.html

I like this site... very informative..

Merry Christmas! :)

peace;
rob

[Loco_moco]

9. Check out this page...

http://liberalslikechrist.org/christlike/index.htm

I like this site... very informative..

Merry Christmas! :)

peace;
rob

[Cheswick2.0]

10. anything is possible

I doubt Jesus was being deceptive. If he had wanted to tell the man to go away he would have said so. He gave the guy a choice, faith in God or faith in things. The man made his choice.

[Character Assassin]

14. No. It is, after all, a parable.

[TreasonousBastard]

15. He was giving him the choice...

of spiritual or material wealth. And trying to give him a clue.

The proper answer to this demand was not to walk away, but to understand that wealth and power have responsibilities, and are not to be worshipped for themselves. This was not really a demand for the rich man to actually give everything away, just to keep his wealth in perspective.

While Christ talks a lot about the poor, he also talks about not keeping your light under a bushel or burying your treasure.

Wealth and success are not bad things in themselves, and there's nothing wrong with being a rich Christian, but wealth and success can never replace the other spiritual and human values.

In essence-- you don't buy the keys to heaven. You earn them.

[starroute]

17. Spiritual answers may be tailored to the asker

Many spiritual traditions affirm the ability of a teacher to intuitively understand the spiritual state of each person who approaches them and know what would be necessary for that particular individual to attain enlightenment.

Those same traditions also suggest that wealth itself is not necessarily an impediment -- but that the desire for wealth is. If a rich man who was addicted to his riches asked how to attain the keys to heaven, the only possible answer might be that he had to sell everything and give it to the poor. It would amount to saying, "You are so deeply addicted that you can only free yourself by practicing the most extreme form of generosity." And if the man turned away saddened, it might be because he understood the answer all too well.

I may offend some people by saying this, but there are times the Gospels read like "Christianity for Dummies." They give the impression of having taken an immeasurably rich, subtle, many-leveled message and boiled it down into a sort of one-size-fits-all doctrine suitable for the average Mediterranean peasant. In many ways, the Christianity which lies beyond the Gospels is far more interesting than the Christianity which is in the Gospels.

[Crowdance]

18. Thank you, Starroute!

Your message, in a single paragraph, summarizes my own struggle with Christianity. Christianity can be so rich and meaningful when we can move beyond the "how-to" manual. "Christianity for Dummies" is such a perceptive way to describe how some people use the Bible to live their lives instead of listening to what God is telling them every day. I suspect that memorizing is easier than hearing. Thanks for the perspective.