AL v. NL

[MrCoffee]

Stake your turf here.

[mainegreen]

1. AL (duh) nt

[MrCoffee]

2. NL

[idgiehkt]

3. this is about sports

that much I understand. which one? baseball?

[mainegreen]

4. Hint: Designated hitters

[MrCoffee]

5. There's more than one? I had no idea.

It's all about baseball.

[elocs]

6. I have not followed baseball for years.

But when I was a kid I was a Cincinnati Reds fan during the Big Red Machine years. The 1976 World Series with the Reds facing the Yankees was the first series where both teams used the DH. The Reds crushed the Yanks in 4 games straight and at that time became the first NL team to repeat as champs since the NY Giants did it in 1921-22. The Reds win over the Red Sox in the 1975 World Series is still rated as one of the best World Series ever. I remember it and I loved it.

To be a baseball fan you have to appreciate statistics and the nuances and strategy of the game. The designated hitter removes some important strategy from the game and being an NL purist I have never liked it.

[reyd reid reed]

7. NL

What's the deal with players that don't have to play both offense and defense? That's just...football.

[XNASA]

8. The DH is the worst thing that ever happened to baseball.

If you don't understand why, then you really don't understand baseball at all.

[azmouse]

9. The pitcher should have to bat for himself.

Besides, watching the half-assed swings the pitchers take is good for a laugh!!

[XNASA]

11. Or...the pitcher should pinch-hit for.

What's next?

A designated runner?

Hell, let's just have separate offence and defence, like in football. If the DH is justified, so having a defensive catcher, and a hitting catcher. Why not? :sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

13. a pinch-hitter is a DH

[XNASA]

14. A pinch hitter is a temporary DH.

[ComerPerro]

16. yeah, so that the pitcher doesn't have to hit, in a "pinch"

which is exactly what the AL does all the time.

Pretending that the NL somehow protects purity by having pitchers bat is nonsense.

If they were so interested in purity, they would have pitchers take all of their at-bats, even in the eight and ninth innings.

[XNASA]

22. No. In the NL, if a pitcher is pinch hit for......

...you must change pitchers.

Same goes for the shortstop, or left fielder, or any position player. If you pinch hit, the player pinch hit for is out of the game. And another player, or the player who pinchhit, must take their position in the field.

Designated hitters and pinch hitters are not the same.

[ComerPerro]

25. but here's my beef with the NL

why can someone hitting for a pitcher come in at another position?

I said somewhere else in this thread, if you're gonna sub in for a pitcher at the plate, it damn well better be another pitcher.

[XNASA]

29. It's called "Flip-Flopping" the order.

It's another fine nuance of the National League game that is not a part of the American League game. You can add 'hit & run' and 'sacrifice bunt' to that list.

NL=Chess, AL=Checkers.

[MrCoffee]

31. Freakin' A right.

[ComerPerro]

35. I've seen both in the AL, they can play small ball.

There is nothing cerebral, and no matter of strategic genius, to saying, "lets sub a .300 hitter in for this pitcher, and then bring in a hard-throwing pitcher next time we are on defense".

Its a "nuance of the game", yes, but its bullshit.

Position for position, I say.

[XNASA]

40. Except that pitchers aren't the only ones pinch-hit for and.....

...pinch-hitters are still used in the AL on occasion.

To me, it has less to do with who bats than it does the strategy of changing pitchers.

For instance....

It's the top of the 9th. The score is 0-0. Your team is batting. There are 2 outs and there's a runner on 1st and your pitcher is coming up. He's pitching great. He only came on in the 7th inning but he's mowing everyone down.

Do you pinch hit for him?

How about if there's a man on 2nd, but 1st base is open?

Or maybe you have a man on 3rd.

Maybe bases are loaded and it's Carlos Zambrano of the Cubs who is a switch hitter who can hit better than most players.

All these nuances are missing in the AL where the managers are allowed to change pitchers at will with no regard for how it affects the batting order. That sucks.

[ComerPerro]

44. Changing a pitcher does not have to affect the batting order

[MrCoffee]

19. That is utter horseshit. The pinch hitter has to come on and play defense

[ComerPerro]

21. yeah, so you get a utility guy who comes in and plays for an inning

big deal.

[MrCoffee]

24. it's a huge deal...

who is he gonna play for? what position? what's the opposing manager going to do to his line-up? pinch-hitting for the pitcher late in the game makes baseball exciting. the dh is dull.

[ComerPerro]

26. Why not just constantly change your batting order at will

so the 1,2,3 and 4 guys are up to bat at the top of every inning?

[MrCoffee]

27. Now you're just talking crazy talk...

stick to the rules of baseball, and don't get all lost in fantasy land.

[ComerPerro]

32. I'm just saying, wouldn't that make it exciting? And, BTW,

its essentially what managers do late game.

Pitcher bats 9th (or 8th, in some cases). So you bring out the pitcher for a pinch hitter who hits like a power-hitter. Then, you got 1, 2, and 3. So it dramatically changes the batter order. And, on top of that, you bring in a fresh pitcher who can throw 100mph.

And you call that purity? Yeah, its exciting, but its also bullshit.

I don't care how they manipulate the batting order and the on-field subsitutions to make it work.

I think that if you really want to have subs done honestly and want to talk about purity of the game, you should advocate replacing position-for-position subbing.

If you bring in a massive home run hitter to replace your pitchers at bat, he damn well better be on the mound next inning.

[MrCoffee]

41. Why is it bullshit? It's baseball...

it's what makes baseball baseball. manipulating the batting order and fielding subs are just as much a part of the game as any other aspect. the dh takes away that part of the game.

[ComerPerro]

46. I contend that the DH takes that BS out, and that is a good thing

Seriously, why not just allow each manager to "strategically" rearrange their batting order once a game, at will?

[XNASA]

30. Untrue.

[MrCoffee]

34. Well, ok, but you still have to make a defensive substitution

if the game goes on.

[ComerPerro]

36. yeah, and it shouldn't be that way

it should be that the pinch hitter takes the position of the player he replaced.

[XNASA]

42. That's not it at all.

The deal is, if you come out of the game, you're out of the game for good. There are only 15 position players per team. If a NL manager pinch-hits for a position player, then brings in someone else to play the field, he just used up 2 players. You can only do that so many times especially when you consider that you couldn't bring in the back-up shortstop to play catcher.

It's a chess game.

In the AL, they don't even think about stuff like that.

[ComerPerro]

47. And you only really need to do it once

[ComerPerro]

48. besides, using your chess analogy, I could say

that what the NL does is, when things start to go bad, swap out a pawn for a queen.

[SteppingRazor]

10. NL only, but purely by coincedence...

I root for the teams that are from the places I've lived. I grew up in L.A., then moved to Colorado, then Missouri, and now I'm in South Florida. Thus, I root for the Dodgers, the Rockies, the Cardinals and the Marlins. Oddly, all four of them happen to be NL.

[ComerPerro]

12. NL fans, don't pretend that your pitcher actually hits when it matters

that's why you guys use pinch hitters.

You sub when the pitcher is up.

Pitchers almost never take an at-bat when the game is on the line.

And you know it.

[reyd reid reed]

15. I've seen Dusty use

Zambrano to pinch hit. He's a switch-hitter and has hit four or five home runs and a couple of triples this year.

[MrCoffee]

17. It's called strategery.

Pinch-hitting for the pitcher late in the game is what baseball is all about. designated hitters are boring.

[ComerPerro]

18. what about purity though?

You're lying to yourselves.

[MrCoffee]

20. Purity is preserved by making the pinch-hitter actually play baseball

as opposed to the dh, who doesn't have to play at all.

[ComerPerro]

23. Why not just have the pinch-hitter take the position of the

guy he subs in for, eh?

If you are gonna have someone pinch-hit for your pitcher, it damn well better be a pitcher. Otherwise, you've got a batting order with 6 infielders or 4 outfielders, just like an AL team.

[MrCoffee]

28. Cheers to whoever voted for Single A ball!!!

:toast:

[Zomby Woof]

33. NL

First and best in baseball.

[ComerPerro]

37. that's not what the recent world series and All-Star game would suggest

[Zomby Woof]

38. History

The arc of history, and what constitutes real baseball.

[ComerPerro]

39. The NL got outplayed at AL and NL style baseball

[Blue_Tires]

43. the AL is for fascists

but then again I'm biased:silly: :crazy: :party: :hide:

[mainegreen]

45. Man, you've really opened a can of worms here!

:o ;-)

[MrCoffee]

49. Well this is important stuff...that Israel/Palestine thing is crap.

[ComerPerro]

50. Yeah, I prefer to stick to what's important, and what needs to be

addressed immediately.

Like this.


Actually, the way Bush is, I wouldn't be suprised if this was his next big crusade. Trying to bring peace between the AL and NL fans...

:rofl:

[MrCoffee]

51. Not even Chimpy is dumb enough to get involved in that one.

Unlike me, who is clearly dumb enough to do so.

[ComerPerro]

54. NL, AL. It matters not. You know who the real bad guy is here?

Liberals, Gays, and Illegals.

That's the Bush approach.

[MrCoffee]

52. Cheers to everyone who set this thread on fire!!!

:toast:

[trof]

53. Aw hell...I thought this was about the Crimson Tide and

somebody.
;-)

[MrCoffee]

55. Like anybody cares about the SEC

[trof]

57. What do you have against the Securities and Exchange Commission?

:shrug:

[MrCoffee]

58. Rule 10b(6)

It made my Business Associations class really painful.

[NJ Democrats]

56. AL!

If there was no DH then people like *gasp* David Ortiz and *gasp* Jim Thome would be at 1st! Think about how much errors there would be. Plus it adds offense which is awsome! Go Al (exceot Boston)! And Go YANKEES!!! 6 1/2 up!