Circumsicion: Yes or No?

[MrCoffee]

If you were having a boy, would you have him circumcised?
If you are willing to explain your choice, please do. I'm torn (and that's not a pun)...

[tjwmason]

1. No - it's mutilation.

Apart from the (very rare) cases of medical necessity in adults, it's only really done for religious reasons over here - for which I am most grateful.

Next question - if you were given the option to chop off one of your son's toes, would you take it?

[tigereye]

19. that argument makes no sense

it isn't the same as toes....

[swimboy]

23. what is your argument for the difference

surely not that one is expendable and the other not

[tigereye]

25. if we are going to look at it that way

you do need your toes to walk. Millions of men are circumsized, it was the norm for years, and still is in many cases, and I really don't think most of them regret that that is the decision that their parents made for them.

[tjwmason]

26. Why is it different?

A person can get through life perfectly happily with a toe having been removed.

Plus that toe might get infected, and it can be rather tricky to clean between one's toes - so chopping one off is very hygenic.

I'm simply saying that I find the arguments in favour of circumcision (with the possible exception of religious ones) to be specious; removal of part of the body is mutilation.

[tigereye]

31. would you say then that cutting your toenails is mutilation, then?

sorry.

It just irks me that people who have no kids like to moralize to the rest of us about the normative decision that we made for our son/s. My husband and I made the decision for our son that made sense to us at the time.

Having seen a lot of kids, boys and girls, who have really poor health and many diseases at birth, and are lucky to be alive at all, I think this issue is a tempest in a teapot.

[tjwmason]

34. Cutting one's toenails is necessary to continued use of one's feet

Cutting off part of one penis is not necessary for use of it in either of its functions.

I'm not moralising about choices made by anybody else - I was just asked for my views on circumcision, I said that it's mutiliation.

[Left Is Write]

106. He doesn't have children, but he DOES...

have the body part in question.

As was pointed out, he was asked his opinion and he gave it.

[AngryAmish]

36. Mighty high horse you have there

What's her name?

[tjwmason]

44. Where's the high horse?

I was asked my view - I gave it.

Would you like to tell me where my reasoning was wrong, or do you find throwing names easier?

[AngryAmish]

61. No, throwing names is easier.

And what is her name? You have not told me.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

89. While I'm against nonconsensual body modification, you have to admit, the

foreskin doesn't really do much. I mean, I personally think it's more comfortabe circumsised, but w/e.

[tjwmason]

93. It protects

not wishing to be too blunt for a public forum - I have a very definite preference for uncut.

[usregimechange]

2. When we looked at the research 2 years ago we decided no.

[momophile]

3. just seems cruel - I mean, ouch!

I don't understand the whole thing. I'm a girl, so I can't possibly totally understand. But there is no way I'd let someone cut part of my girl off, so why would I let my boy get cut. The religion thing is not a factor so I'd just be doing it out of tradition. And the tradition seems silly to me. No offense to those that have been cut or those that will be getting their boys cut. It just doesn't seem important either way to me so why do it?

My 2 cents...

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

90. Well, generally your a baby when it happens. Also, its not like the fskin

does much. As I said above, I think it's more comfortable circumsised (can't really compare though, since I was like, you know, minutes old I guess when that happens)

[sir_captain]

92. Let's just say

you don't know what you're missing.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

96. .

:( O well, shit happens.

[Katina]

4. yes

I come from a medical family and a family where the women are prone to cervical diseases. I believe the research that shows that there is a high correlation between cervical diseases in women who have un-circumsized partners.
So we had our son circumsized as a new born.

[dropkickpa]

123. The solution to that

would be to get him vaccinated for HPV and to teach him to always wear a condom during sexual encounters. BTW, I answered no.

[Katina]

140. he's already

26. Things were a lot different 26+ years ago...including NO VACCINE. We have no regrets about our decision. We would probably make it again.

[GoneOffShore]

159. OK, so with a foreskin he gets to wear a condom

Hmm.

That is, unless impregnation is in the picture.

Sounds like fun to me.

(Speaking as a monagomous hetero male with no intention of having kids and whose SO is on the pill)

[swimboy]

5. Leave the decision up to him when he comes of age.

Infant circumcision forecloses on his right to decide for himself.

[MrCoffee]

18. One question for those who agree with this...

By not having him circumcised as an infant, aren't you making the decision for him anyway? I mean, how many adults are going to choose it, even if they want to?

I'm not picking a fight, but it seems like the parent has to decide for the kid one way or another. I'm circumcised, and I never ever thought about it until now, because I have to decide.

Thanks in advance.

[progmom]

28. the only thing you're deciding for him in the situation swimboy describes

...is that he has the right to decide for himself. :shrug:

you just have to make sure to teach your son to clean under his foreskin. it's not that big of a deal.

[liontamer]

73. I've known people who got circumcised when they were older

for medical reasons. They've said they wished their parents had just had it done when they were babies. But that is highly anecdotal (2 people). Still circumcision is correlated with decreased HIV infection in men, so it has that going for it.

[idgiehkt]

83. did they say why?

was it hygiene or did they feel 'different' somehow, or what?

The HIV infection thing, wasn't that study done in Africa?

[liontamer]

91. 1 hygiene, 1 tear

and yes the HIV study was done in Africa

[Jamastiene]

122. If they feel that strongly about having it done later

in life, they will do it. Otherwise, they won't.

[Bombtrack]

156. adults chose to do painful things all the time (tatoos, pregancy)

and a few select wackos even peirce parts of their genitals.

[Debi]

38. self-delete

After reading the other posts on this thread I don't want to get in the middle of this....:popcorn:

[ZombieNixon]

6. No.

Just thinking about it...ouch, dude...x(

And it seems unnecessary to me if you're not going to risk getting sand in there while traveling through the desert. :shrug:

[MrCoffee]

7. Thank you for your responses so far.

[formerrepuke]

8. I voted no. And the usual arguments FOR it are pretty lame:

..So he will look like Daddy (How many kids see Daddy undressed long enough to tell how he 'looks'.. which begs the question.. Why are they seeing Daddy undressed long enough to see, anyway?)

..So he will look like the other boys in the locker room (Again, see above ..and you're really not supposed to be looking around in the locker room, anyway)

..For 'hygienic reasons' (if there are genuine cleanliness issues, then the owner of the foreskin himself can decide whether he wants to be circumsized or not)

..To prevent 'self-abuse' (the primary reason the trend was started in the first place.. the Victorians were fanatical about it ..circumcision doesn't it anyway ..so I've heard ;-)

[SacredCow]

I think it's more for cultural and/or religious reasons...

I don't regard it as mutilation or cruel (I'm circumcised, and I don't remember it or carry any emotional baggage from it) but is it necessary? Hardly.

No right or wrong answer on this one, I believe.

[Jamastiene]

125. I agree with you that it is merely an opinion

neither right or wrong on this one.

[progmom]

9. we decided not to

:shrug:

It's a lot of pain for the infant, and most of the rest of the world has stopped doing non-religious circumcisions.

[Ravenseye]

10. No, and my wife is carrying my son due in late October

So it's a current issue for us. As the first poster pointed out there is no medical reason to have circumsicion done. There are occasionally cases where it's medically necessary, but for the vast majority of the public it's just completely unnecessary.

While I don't think male circumcision is as extreme a case of mutilation as female circumsicion, I still think it's barbaric to do it for no other reason than 'tradition' or 'old wives tales' which is what it general amounts to. Or a desire by a father to have his son 'match him' which is just odd.

My son will, *knock on wood*, be here by late October, early November and we will NOT be getting him circumsized.

Oh another reason why not to. They say that you should wait about a week to have a circumcision because right after birth is too early for the trauma of it, yet if you leave the hospital and then come back for a circumscion they charge you for another admitance and surgery (alot of money) so they just do them right away while you're in the hospital. Just crazy.

I say no and I'll challenge anyone who says 'yes' to automatic male circumscion to tell me why without pointing to a religious text or using the excuse 'well...I was circumcised."

[LA lady]

57. Tradition

Interesting note, the Jews have a ritual circumcision on the 8th day and we now know that that is when Vitamin K is produced which aids in coagulation! It makes you wonder how many babies tragically hemorrhaged before they realized that this was a "magic day".

My husband was "done" but once he witnessed the procedure, we agreed not to have our sons snipped. They are all adults now and have had no problems.

Best wishes with your baby!!

[Ravenseye]

70. Thanks

I have a couple we're good friends with who got their son snipped because they were jewish. Yet they eat pork. I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that one of the 'traditions' they follow involves mutilation of their son's genitals, yet they don't follow other ones that are more passive like dietary ones.

There's alot of confusion surrounding this issue, and alot of clouded facts too...like people getting their sons circumsized because they read that it lowers the chances of them getting aids. I'm sure that if female circumsicion were the tradition in our society it'd have it's defenders too, and they'd point to other studies showing this or that benefit...ignoring the fact that it's mutiliation and almost always completely unnecessary.

Back to the traditional origins though, it probably made sense. If back then there was a genetic predisposition for problems with the foreskin, combined with terrible hygene and living in a dry environment which didn't lend to frequent bathing, they might have had constnat infections of the foreskin because of the environment. This could have led to a traditional circumscion because it's easier to do at birth, and get it out of teh way immediately because of the problems keeping the baby clean.

Then learning to wait a week as being even better.

Even eating pork probably had an environmental reason. Not just the Trichonosis, but because raising pigs in a dry desert environment is very costly and wastefull of water resources, so it'd be a reason to ban them as well. Going from 'wastefull and stupid' to 'god said no' could probably take only a generation or two to make the switch. Same for circumcision.

I'm not going to mutilate my son's genitals because of the environmental and hygenic problems they had in the near east six thousand years ago. I'd call that a stupid tradition.

[Maine-ah]

88. I'm due about the same time as your wife (Nov. 8th)

and I'm glad that I don't have to make this decision since we're having a girl. But we obviously had to consider it before we knew what we were having. I had decided in the end, I didn't care what anyone else thought, I wasn't going to have our child circumcised if it was a boy, and my husband, who is circ'd said the same thing.

[Jamastiene]

126. I love the way you worded that...

"my wife is carrying my son..."

I can see you are a proud papa already. :hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

11. I voted no, but I came to that decision after a horrible experience with

our son.

We had our son circumcised for reasons that have been labeled "lame" in this thread, but that I will still stand by and defend. I wish we hadn't, because of the pain we put our son through. The OB did a crap job of it and left too much foreskin. It kept adhering and his pediatrician kept pulling it back (which caused my sweet baby to scream with rage and pain-it still makes me sick to remember). Pulling it back didn't help so we took him to a urologist. My sweet baby boy was somewhere between circumcised and uncircumcised... still is...and I am still sick whenever I think of it. :(

[ZombieNixon]

12. Eee...just reading that made me flinch...a lot.

So sorry he (and you) had to go through that. :( :hug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. Thanks Zombie. I hate myself for putting him through that.

And for people who don't think babies remember stuff...It took him four years to go to the dr. without screaming. :hug:

I was so very deadly wrong on this.

[amitten]

24. Don't feel so guilty. He will certainly recover from the trauma.

Many children worldwide go through far worse, and recover and prosper.

He will too. Don't beat yourself up.

[nosillies]

22. Your post has helped me decide something, thanks!

I'm expecting a son, and my OB said we need to pay in advance for the circumcision. With my first son, his pediatrician did it. It was perfect and beautiful. I have been thinking, why the heck would the OB do this? Now I know I'm going to refuse this and get my pediatrician to do it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

39. I'm glad I could help.

His circumcision looked horrible and I was worried about caring for it as it was. Best of luck with your new baby boy!! :toast:

[LeftyMom]

13. Absolutely not. All people have a right to genital integrity.

Performing unneeded surgery on those who are too young to consent is unethical and I'm continually amazed it's not illegal. Non-medical circumcision of minors should be banned.

[tigereye]

21. thank you for deciding for everyone and then

lecturing us about it.

[asthmaticeog]

32. Self-delete

Fuck it, it's just not worth it. Sorry, tige. :hi:

[LeftyMom]

37. You're welcome.

Anytime. ;)

[reyd reid reed]

15. Four of my five have been boys

With the first two, I really didn't think about it. It was kind of...just what was done. They're 22 and 17.

The younger ones, I thought about it more and finally had it done but mostly because their brothers were and...it hurt me more with the two younger ones, though. Maybe because I was older and did think about it.

[Mz Pip]

16. I had two sons

and neither are circumcised. Right before the first one was born I was at the hospital for a check up and walked by the nursery. The doctors had forgott to close the curtain when they were performing a circumcision. The baby was straspped down and screaming his head off. I thought, no way was my kid going to go through that.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Divameow77]

48. They do give a local anesthesia

now when they do it so I doubt that is the norm today.

[uppityperson]

117. not always, it depends on who does it.

Yes, they do it without anesthetic under the impression the baby is too young to know what is going on anyway, won't remember. And yes, they scream.

[Momgonepostal]

17. No--we have no religious reasons for doing so and it's...

unnecessary surgery. Not to bash others who make that choice, but to me it is not medically necessary, so why do it? If he grows up and really wants it done, he certainly can make that choice, but he cannot choose to have it undone.

[nosillies]

20. I have one boy and one on the way

Both will be circumcised. This was my husband's decision. My hubby isn't circumcised. I thought he would choose not to have our son done. But a couple of years ago, his uncircumcised friend had to be cut as an adult due to an infection (not an STD, just an infection!). The doctors told him that adult men having to be circumcised for this reason was actually quite common.

I will never forget his trauma and pain, and his saying that if we ever had a son and could prevent him from going through the hell of an adult circumcision, do it. I'm sure that's why my husband decided as he did.

[QuestionAll...]

82. this is what puzzles me...

why is it assumed that a baby feels less pain and is less traumatized than an adult?

because he can't describe the horror of it.

[nosillies]

87. Possibly because there is no memory of it?

I once had a surgery without anesthesia. I was instead given a drug that essentially erased my short-term memory every few seconds. So there was plenty of pain, but I didn't remember any of it. I wasn't traumatized because I don't remember.

I saw my babe's circumcision, and he fussed slightly. I think because he was being pinned down. There was anesthesia involved.

[Jamastiene]

128. Are you just a glutton for pain or what?

"I once had a surgery without anesthesia." ... " So there was plenty of pain..." :wow:

I take my hat off to you if you went through that. You have a higher tolerance for it than I do. Wow.

[nosillies]

130. Truly, I remember nothing

I wish I could remember the name of the drug. It was surreal. I needed to be able to converse with the doctor, so I was kept awake. Maybe some MD around here can enlighten me on the name of the pill.

It just constantly wiped my memory, so no memory of the pain!

[MrCoffee]

27. Why I Asked

We have a boy due at the end of October/beginning of November, and now I have to think about something that I've never ever thought about before. I've read medical opinions pro and con, and they make what seem to me to be equally valid arguments both ways. So what I've decided is that it comes down to personal preference.

My wife wants to have it done. She freely admits that it's personal preference. IF we're having it done, we'll try to find a mohel rather than some hack OB to do it. I still haven't decided whether or not I want it done. So I thought I'd float a poll and see which way the wind is blowing. Thank you all for your responses, I really appreciate it.

[progmom]

30. fwiw

We were planning on circumcising our son - didn't even really give it a second thought. Then my brother called me to say: "This really isn't any of my business, but might you consider not doing it? I'm not circumcised and I am really glad I'm not." He suggested we do some research on it. So we did, and ultimately decided not to. I don't think that people who do it are bad, I just think it's a custom that probably isn't necessary.

[JitterbugPerfume]

29. if I had it to do over

two of my three sons would not be circumcised. Back when I had my sons it was done as a matter of course

I do not know about now

[ThomCat]

33. I wasn't circumcised until I was 5 years old.

I was born so small and premature that they didn't do it when I was a baby, and then my parents didn't get around to it until I was five.

I was unconcious when they did it, thankfully, but I vividly remember the pain for days afterwards.

And they messed it up and I required stiches. I remember those stiches, and if I look, I can still see where the stiches were. x(

Oh hell no, I'm not inflicting any similar experience upon anyone.

[MrCoffee]

35. Thanks for posting that...

I haven't heard anything from anyone who had it done later in life. Thanks for sharing that.

[wildhorses]

40. get rid of it....trust me on this....medically speaking it is

more hygenic...in other words STUFF can grow in THERE:puke:

[Nia Zuri]

46. Ummm..... you can just clean it...not that big a deal

Do you know what you're talking about?

[nosillies]

51. She might...see my above post

Our newly-circumcised friend's doctor told him infections leading to forced circumcision were common. Unless the doctor was wrong.

[sir_captain]

56. It's all relative

The AMA has removed its recommendation that newborns be circumcised. There's generally less growing underneath a foreskin than there is in the average woman. It's not particularly difficult to clean the area and there are definite drawbacks to propylactic circumcision--decreased sensitivity is the major one, of course.

[datasuspect]

113. it wouldn't be the first time ONE particular doctor is wrong

but the consensus is that there is no compelling medical reason for universal circumcision.

soap and water works wonders.

[uppityperson]

119. For a while, recommended forced retraction"toclean under", led to problems

Pulling back the foreskin to clean under it works if the foreskin is retractable. However, on many babies it is not. Thus, pulling it back to clean actually stretches/tears the tissue, leading to oozing, leading to infections, leading to "see I told you we should have". You do NOT need to clean under something that has no under yet. It is that simple. Teach them how to wash their penis, retracting foreskin as it is able and NOT forcing it and there you go.

[Kali]

157. Not knowing the specifics - just a thought

Wouldn't a doc that performed these sort of naturally come to the conclusion that they were common? I mean what are the real statistics? What does "common" mean?

[wildhorses]

69. hiya scard...nice username

yeah, after reading this thread I have decided that whatever a parent wants to do or not do...none of my business and YES I work in an emergency department at the local county hospital and so I see ALL kinds of ethnicities on a daily basis...


so pretty much what I am saying is:

you are reading some horror stories in this thread and it is NOT the NORM with this procedure.

A local anesthetic is used.

but, truly it is not my kid and therefore none of my business...


color me outta here and on to greener pastures (they don't call me wildhorses for nuttin)


edited to take out some of the flavor since we are eating at the Olive Garden:P

[NoSheep]

41. Yes, I would. For probably the wrong reason:

I think a circumcised penis is more pleasant to look at. More sexy. But I'm not having children so don't worry.

[MrCoffee]

45. That's my wife's reason...and she admits that it's not a very good one.

[NoSheep]

47. If the majority of women share our opinion...would it be any different

from plastic surgery or maybe reconstructive surgery? I don't know. It's that the child couldn't coose that is the issue. Would it be easier or harder (health and pain-wise) to wait for the child to grow up and decide on his own if he feels awkward or "different" in some way for being uncircumcised?

[MrCoffee]

59. That's the one argument that I don't buy...

Personally, I think that the parents are making a choice either way. I've yet to hear about anyone who has chosen to have it done when they were older (unless it was medically necessary). So I feel that if we don't do it, we're deciding for him.

[swimboy]

63. And if you do have it done you are NOT deciding for him?

:shrug:

[MrCoffee]

67. I think I'd be deciding either way, and I don't have a problem with that

I'm his dad. I get to decide all kinds of things that will affect him one way or another for the rest of his life. It's called parenting.

My personal opinion is that if you decide to do it, then yes, you've decided that he'll be circumcised for the rest of his life. If you decide not to do it, then you've decided that he'll be uncircumcised for the rest of his life. My feeling is that most guys won't decide to have it done if they aren't cut as babies, and most babies who were cut don't miss it. I was cut, and I've never even thought about it until now, and it's only because I have to decide that I am thinking about it.

[nosillies]

64. Good point!

But who knows what will be popular in penile plastic surgery in 20 years? :D

I shudder to think...I hope I don't see it on a reality makeover show!

[NoSheep]

79. Gotcha. What about yourself? Are you? Aren't you? Feelings on

the issue? If you are circumcised and you're glad you are, maybe you should use that as a guide. If you are and wish you weren't, then maybe that is your guide. If you are and feel it damaged you or that it made you feel bad towards your parents, perhaps that is your guide. If you aren't and wish they'd gotten it over with when you were young....I suppose I'd go with my OWN feelings about it. What do you think?

[MrCoffee]

80. I've never thought about it until now. It is what it is.

I think that's why I'm up in the air. I've never known anything different than what I am, so I have no basis on which to judge the merits.

[DemExpat]

146. Which means that they are happy with their penis as is......

what's wrong with that?
At least he is whole and has the option for cosmetic surgery as an adult.

DemEx

[Nia Zuri]

52. That is just a matter of what you're used to

My first lovers were circumcised..the first guy I saw who was uncircumsized looked so ugly and strange. Now, hubby is circumcised and I think it is beatiful, natural. Now I think a circumcised man would look strange and bald. Our son, of course is uncircumsized, I never dreamed of doing that to him...there is no reason for putting them through that kind of pain...sheer ignorance if you ask me. When I see circumsized boys at daycare, etc., I always think they look weird, like little mushrooms...

[nosillies]

55. I'm not ignorant by any means.

Those who don't agree with you or make different medical choices aren't ignorant. Would you say that those who presume to know that a procedure which they have never had is painful or not are ignorant?

[Eurobabe]

53. Who says?

I've been with two guys that are not circumcised, and I see no difference. I think the little hoodie is cute. ;)

[Tyrone Slothrop]

94. That's why I would

Just about every woman I know (with whom the subject has come up) has told me that they prefer cut to uncut.

[Madrone]

120. That's very sad.

I don't think much of women that have this viewpoint, and I believe it's derived from ignorance. If most men had the opinion that a woman without Triple P breast implants were "gross" or "dirty" people here would be outraged. It would be viewed as shallow and ignorant - as it should be.

For many years (and even now, in some instances) women have struggled with a society bent on describing our genitalia and it's natural function as dirty, gross and disgusting. There's NO excuse for women taking that view toward a man.

And do you know why I believe so many women have this opinion? It's because they hear it over and over again until they accept it as truth instead of being contemplative or thoughtful about the reality.

[uppityperson]

121. I guess most of the time my partner's were in their pants

not dawdling out all over. And anyways, once it gets erect it looks fine (get past that chicken neck stage).

[auntAgonist]

42. 23 years ago

I was uninformed and ignorant. I thought it was the thing to do. His father was circumcised, his father before him etc.

I would have to do a lot more research and thinking about it now though were I to have another son. I won't obviously be having any more children, but should my son have a son, we'll talk, and this grandma will have read up on it and have some input. The decision of course would be ultimately that of the parents.

aA
:hi:

[City Lights]

43. I have a boy and he is not circumcised.

We decided it wasn't necessary, and my husband, my father and my husband's father are proof that it isn't.

If you decide against it, I suggest you check with the hospital on their policy. We made the assumption that it wasn't done without parental permission, however, when he was born in 1994, the hospital did it automatically unless we notified them otherwise. The nurses overheard us talking and gave us a heads up on making our wishes known. Our son's crib had a "no circ" sign on it during the rest of his hospital stay.

[Rabrrrrrr]

49. Only for loud children in restaurants.

[ZombieNixon]

54. Close the thread, Rabrrrrrr wins!

:rofl:

[MrCoffee]

60. LMAO...this thread could use a little humor.

[Eurobabe]

50. The only reason still done (outside of religious beliefs) is to fit in

Most parents are such freaks about having homogeneity in the locker room. Nature put the hood there for a reason, no need to lose the hat. If I had a son, I would not circumcise him. JMHO.

[swimboy]

58. So according to some--

go ahead and cut because:

1) many children experience much worse trauma than this elective procedure, and

2) it is entirely a matter of personal preference, the preference, that is to say, of anyone other than the child being cut on.

:wtf:

[RetroLounge]

62. had a boy, had him circumcised.

It was our choice, my wife and mine, and I really do not give a shit what anyone else thinks about that decision. Since my son's penis will never be part of your life, I hardly see your opinion as mattering one iota.

But to those who chose to share their experience, pro or con, I appreciate your ability to do so maturely.

To those of you who chose to lecture and denigrate, well, thanks for showing us that liberals are fundies too when it comes to some things.

Sheesh...

RL

p.s. We had him circumcised at the local Olive Garden, and he screamed so as to annoy all the other customers.

[bicentennial_baby]

65. ...

:spray:

:loveya:

[nosillies]

66. as to your p.s.

:rofl:

[MrCoffee]

68. Shame on you for going to Olive Garden...that place sucks.

[Debi]

71. Why are you so F*&%$#/G Judgmental????

:rofl:

[ScreamingMeemie]

72. Why the heck didn't your wife just breastfeed him?

:shrug: :hi: :hug:

[Debi]

75. She was too busy being told what she'd be having for dinner

;)

[RetroLounge]

76. She was breastfeeding him at the same time

:rofl:

RL

[Debi]

77. While smoking!

:spray:

[ronnykmarshall]

148. and pray REAL loud in public.

Oh, did I ever tell you I CAN'T STAND PETA???

Meat! Meat! Meat! mmmmmmmmmmmmm good!

Hon, pass we the veal and don't spill anything on your mink apron!

[Mutley]

104. ...

:rofl:


Now I'm sure I won't be eating at the Olive Garden ever again. :D

[philosophie_en_rose]

74. It's no one's choice but yours.

There are a variety of reasons to circumcise (from religion ones to hygiene to cosmetic), and no one can tell you what to believe about any of them.

Many people have their little girls' ears pierced. It's not medically necessary, and it can hurt. I don't quite understand why little kids need earrings, but I also understand that many women are grateful to have that experience done when they are little. Others find it a painful experience and suffer complications. Some (like me) don't have their ears pierced.

My only question is why little boys aren't sedated more effectively, when circumsion is done.

[MrCoffee]

78. I think that's a good analogy.

I still don't know what I'll decide. I just wanted to get some different opinions. I've been asking my co-workers and have gotten a lot of the same responses.

Thank you to everyone who's posted so far. It's really been helpful.

[MissMillie]

84. While I agree the choice is a personal one....

I'm not sure the ear-piercing analogy works, well, it doesn't for me.

[LeftyMom]

85. Agreed

There's a bit of a difference between two easily healed pinpricks in the earlobes and removing densely ennervated erogenous tissue from the penis.

[philosophie_en_rose]

86. Some parents withhold blood transfusions, transplants, and vaccines.

For whatever reason, they believe that it is not worth the risks.

Some parents demand vaccines and blood transfusions, because the risks of not fulfilling those needs are too great.

All procedures have risks and disadvantages. And Parents make decisions all of the time. Though I can understand advocating for one's own perspective, because I definitely recognize that there is a line between parental choice and abuse. But I don't see circumcision itself as an issue, although I do think the methods seem in need of improvement.

[tjwmason]

95. I've yet to meet somebody

who suggests transplants as a matter of course. They're always theraputic, whereas circumcision as a matter of course is not.

[Book Lover]

81. Oh, ye gods, not another one of these...

My vote is to not do it; my reasoning is that the foreskin evolved for a reason, and cleaning the head of the penis is not rocket science. But seriously, as one who has been through this argument with family, friends, other message boards, etc, etc, do whatever is best for your family.

[Rabrrrrrr]

97. If I did it, I wouldn't let the docs do it - I'd hire a Mohel

Even though I'm not Jewish.

THEY know what the hell they're doing!

The Mohel that did my friend's son's bris said he does about 6-7 a day, and had done about 10,000 in his lifetime. He said there is no doctor who has done anywere near that many.

[MrCoffee]

99. IF we do it, we're definatley getting a mohel.

[liontamer]

143. actually i read an article that said that mohels are more likely to spread

herpes. I'm not quite sure how, but apparently they traditionally suck the blood out of the wound to stop bleeding. But this is way out of my area of expertise and I don't know how well that story holds up.

[MrCoffee]

144. I read that too, and it's generally an ultra-Orthodox practice...

so a mohel willing to circumcise a Gentile probably wouldn't do it. But I'd make damn sure to ask.

[ronnykmarshall]

149. So that explains it!

Being some one that has seen his fair share of the peni .... I must admire the work of the Mohel.

I can spot a jewish pecker a mile away.

[IronLionZion]

98. I was born in Brooklyn Jewish Hospital and kept my God-given body parts

I still have my tonsils and appendix too. When I was born, the docs were about to go for the cut but my dad, a surgeon, said HELL NO! We're Indian Catholic. The US and Israel are the big circumcision countries. It's not widespread elsewhere.

Now circumcision is unnecessary as I've never had a problem keeping myself clean. Soap and water are great. And I haven't had any problems with bleeding or STDs either.

The only noticable difference is sensitivity. It really doesn't take much to get me excited. That can be either good or bad depending on the situation. Although most girls have mentioned they like the soft tip, a few have been overly concerned about the risks. One refused to do anything because her mother told her uncircumcised guys are likely to have AIDS. That comes from growing up in America. I appreciate the attention to safety, but I'll always use a condom until I probably get married. That and regular testing and other safety precautions.

wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

[retread]

100. We hadn't thought about it or even discussed it. After he was born and was

blinking his eyes at the sudden bright lights and exercising his newly formed lungs, the Dr. managed to raise his voice over the wailing and asked us if we wanted him circumcised. My spur of the moment reaction was, "Jeez, hasn't he been through enough?"

[trof]

101. My friend the ob/gyn says

he generally recommends that the son should look like the father unless the parents have strong feelings otherwise.

I'm circumcised (now my dirty little secret is out) and I'm fine with that. Never seemed to be a drawback in any way.
I certainly don't feel that I was mutilated.
jeez

I have read that women whose partners are circumcised have less chance of getting cervical cancer.
Have no idea why, but it's my understanding that, statistically, it's the truth.

[dropkickpa]

133. The reason is that

on an uncirced penis, there is something like 25-50% more surface area than in circed men, and HPV, the cause of 95% of cervical cancers, is a virus that lives in skin tissues (especially warm, moist, and fragile environments like the vagina and interior of the foreskin covered penis). The higher skin surface also increases the chances that an infected guy will be shedding virus at that time. The HPVs that cause cervical cancer prefer these type of environments.

The solution? Teach your boys to wear a condom and, as soon as it's available on the market, get both boys and girls vaccinated for HPV (currently, studies are still undergoing for effectiveness in men for high-risk strains, in part because they is so hard to detect in men). The vaccine targets the 2 high-risk strains that are the most aggressive and most associated with cervical cancer and also the 2 highest prevalance low-risk wart strains. There are some 30 odd strains of HPV (out of the over 100 identified) that affect the genital regions. These are broken down into 2 groups, low-risk (the wart kind, called low risk because of the very low chance of changes turning into cancer) and high-risk (rarely to never caused warts, just changes to cervical cells which progress to cancer, sometimes very fast).

[elocs]

102. It would be hard to find an uncut male who supports infant circumcision.

A male who was circumcised as an infant has no point of reference to compare his condition with being uncut. If somebody came up with a medical reason, however remote, that would support or justify female circumcision everybody here would still consider it to be barbaric. How is it any less barbaric when done to an infant boy who has no choice in the matter, but suffers the pain for this "elective" surgery?

Dr. Dean Edell, who gives advice on the radio, is Jewish and is firmly against routinely circumcising baby boys except for religious reasons. Here are a number of articles from his website concerning circumcision: http://menstuff.org/archives/circumcision.html

Check out this one: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/10037.html

"Are Intact Men Better Lovers Than Circumcised Men?

Posting Date: 03/01/1999

Gwen: I've slept with both circumcised and uncircumcised men and I've found uncircumcised men are better lovers.

The intact men seem to have more sensitivity in their movement. Women have an intact body and I think intact men understand that better than circumcised men.

Do you agree?

Dr. Dean: You've made a good point.

There are studies showing that intact men are more sensitive to women's needs. A recent British Journal of Urology survey talks about this. The researchers say women have more satisfaction and comfort with an uncircumcised partner.

Circumcised men are fighting more for stimulation so they often move faster and move deeper. They don't pay as much attention to the woman's needs.

It's almost as if the circumcised man has a callous on the tip of his penis. There's little sensitivity there. And this can come out in the lovemaking. This isn't in all cases, of course. But, the journal article suggests this to be a pattern."

[LeftyMom]

108. Dr. Paul Fleiss, a noted pediatrician, is also Jewish and anti-circ

He's done several articles for Mothering magazine on the subject. They sell them packaged together as a special reprint here http://www.mothering.com/shop/reprints.html but they are free on the web too. http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

The Foreskin Is Necessary

By Paul M. Fleiss, MD, MPH

Western countries have no tradition of circumcision. In antiquity, the expansion of the Greek and Roman Empires brought Westerners into contact with the peoples of the Middle East, some of whom marked their children with circumcision and other sexual mutilations. To protect these children, the Greeks and Romans passed laws forbidding circumcision.1 Over the centuries, the Catholic Church has passed many similar laws.2,3 The traditional Western response to circumcision has been revulsion and indignation.

Circumcision started in America during the masturbation hysteria of the Victorian Era, when a few American doctors circumcised boys to punish them for masturbating. Victorian doctors knew very well that circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the penis. Nevertheless, they were soon claiming that circumcision cured epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, elephantiasis, tuberculosis, eczema, bed-wetting, hip-joint disease, fecal incontinence, rectal prolapse, wet dreams, hernia, headaches, nervousness, hysteria, poor eyesight, idiocy, mental retardation, and insanity.4

In fact, no procedure in the history of medicine has been claimed to cure and prevent more diseases than circumcision. As late as the 1970s, leading American medical textbooks still advocated routine circumcision as a way to prevent masturbation.5 The antisexual motivations behind an operation that entails cutting off part of the penis are obvious.

The radical practice of routinely circumcising babies did not begin until the Cold War era. This institutionalization of what amounted to compulsory circumcision was part of the same movement that pathologized and medicalized birth and actively discouraged breastfeeding. Private-sector, corporate-run hospitals institutionalized routine circumcision without ever consulting the American people. There was no public debate or referendum. It was only in the 1970s that a series of lawsuits forced hospitals to obtain parental consent to perform this contraindicated but highly profitable surgery. Circumcisers responded by inventing new "medical" reasons for circumcision in an attempt to scare parents into consenting. continued at http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

[idgiehkt]

147. thanks for that link

I love his terminology:

"This institutionalization of what amounted to compulsory circumcision was part of the same movement that pathologized and medicalized birth and actively discouraged breastfeeding."

It so obviously a sickness when looked at this way.

man, this is disturbing:

"Parents should be wary of anyone who tries to retract their child's foreskin, and especially wary of anyone who wants to cut it off. Human foreskins are in great demand for any number of commercial enterprises, and the marketing of purloined baby foreskins is a multimillion-dollar- a-year industry. Pharmaceutical and cosmetic companies use human foreskins as research material. Corporations such as Advanced Tissue Sciences, Organogenesis, and BioSurface Technology use human foreskins as the raw materials for a type of breathable bandage."10

[VelmaD]

151. And this is why anecdotal evidence is garbage...

My personal experience has been exactly the opposite of the woman quoted above. The only uncircumsized man I've been with was the WORST lover of my life. He was awful.

And it didn't have a damn thing to do with whether he had a foreskin or not.

[Left Is Write]

103. I chose not to have my son circumcised.

I believe it is an individual, very personal choice - but be prepared for this volatile subject to get heated.

[MrCoffee]

105. Now you warn me...

But, it's been really helpful to get some different opinions/POV's on the topic.

[Left Is Write]

107. I'm glad.

I too found several POVs to be helpful in the case of my own son.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. My wife and I went back and forth about it and hadn't decided

even when we went to the hospital for the birth of our son.

She's Jewish; I'm of part Jewish heritage although I categorize myself as Taoist/Discordian/Zen Buddhist/Spiritual Free Agent/Atheist Whackjob as the case may be. Originially I was more against, she was pro, her being the relatively observant Jew... Then I was leaning more towards it, she was more against.. we went back and forth and really hadn't made up our minds- then our son was born, it was a very difficult delivery, and I went off to the nursery with him while they took care of my wife.

I watched as they pricked his little feet to get his glucose level, and saw him scream- and right then I knew somewhere in the back of my head that I wasn't going to let ANYONE cut him unless it was absolutely, medically necessary. Later it was obvious my wife was kind of agonizing over the decision, and I said "Well, let's not. If we're so miserable at the thought of it, then we shouldn't do it."

We've never regretted that decision since.

[MrCoffee]

110. I threw the nurse out who botched my daughter's heel-stick.

the police came and threatened me with arrest for assault and battery, right in the hospital room. So there's that.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. Wow.

Yeah, I know what you mean- I was feeling awfully protective at that point.

[MrCoffee]

112. Like I told the cops...I let her try for 15 minutes to stab my daughter,

then I wasn't going to let her stab her anymore. She was an incompetent moran.

The cops left soon after, and wished my wife a speedy recovery.

[thefool_wa]

114. The way I see it

The only reason left to circumcise a boy is if you are Jewish, as it is a religous tradition.

Otherwise there is no reason to do it so why inflict the pain on a child.

[Fox Mulder]

115. Hell no!

[sendero]

116. I did it ..

... to my two sons. But probably if I had it to do over I wouldn't.

Personally, I prefer being circumcised. But, if not done at infancy it can still be done later, letting a person make up his own mind about his foreskin. Albeit somewhat more painfully. :(

[elocs]

127. But that's the point. If you have always been cut, how can you compare?

If a male has been circumcised as an infant, how can they claim to prefer circumcision? If they have never been intact, they have no point of reference and so how can a valid preference be made? There are millions and millions and millions of males in the world who are uncut and if there was an actual and serious problem with that then we would see clear evidence of it running rampant throughout the world. It's not happening. Only .1% of uncut males will need to be circumcised for a medical reason later in life.

[sendero]

138. Well..

... I understand your point. But there are many things I don't have to actually experience to be able to discern against.

[Rabrrrrrr]

152. I've never had someone take a baseball bat to my head, either,

but I'm pretty sure I don't want it. I suppose, technically speaking, I can't make that comparison until I *have* been repeatedly smashed in the head with a baseball bat, but some judgments, I think, can be made without having the actual experience.

[elocs]

161. How can one respond to such a well thought out and intelligent reply.? n/m

[Jamastiene]

118. I wouldn't do it unless a medical problem came up.

My aunt and I actually disagree with each other on this one. Although, I don't really have a moral argument for it, I do see it as the way nature intended. Otherwise, let the kid make up his own mind later if he decides he wants to do it. IMHO, the old carpenter's saying applies here: "Measure twice, cut once, because you can cut later, but you can't put it back." That's just my opinion.

[Redstone]

124. Both of my sons are circumcised.

Anyone got a problem with that?

Redstone

[breakaleg]

129. I didn't have it done to my son...

and I'm wondering right now if I made the right choice.

[LeftyMom]

141. Don't worry about it.

There's a reason no organization of medical professionals in the word reccomends non-medical circumcision- it's healthier and safer for your child to remain as nature intended.

Also, keep in mind that most problems of the scare story "he had to be circumcised later" variety are caused by caregivers and medical providers who don't know how to care for minor penile issues when they do crop up. In Scandanavian countries where circumcision never caught on the rate of medically indicated circumcisions is less than 1% of all men, because thier doctors value intactness and know how to handle problems non-surgically.

[Placebo]

131. As a circumcised male, let me just say...

the thought that I could have more penis down there than I do now is truly saddening. Plus, my boy wishes he still had a hat!

Circumcision = :thumbsdown:

That's all I have to say about that.

[Writer]

132. What the hey! I thought it was more hygienic...

to get rid of the hood. That being, less smegma builds up under the foreskin - smegma that causes infections in both the man AND the woman.

Also, I don't want to be eyelevel with a hood. That is as far as I will go in discussing this. Ewww!

[AussieDave]

134. I'm glad my parents had me circumcised when I was a baby

I just find the "hooded" penis not as attractive as one that has had it removed - easy to keep clean, yada yada yada.

I can also see both sides of the argument as to whether it should be done, so I'll just leave things at that.

[Common Sense Party]

135. Yes, absolutely. I am, my son is, and we're both happy as can be.

To each their own.

[LuckyTheDog]

136. We adopted

The baby was five months old when he came into our home. He was not circumcised and we decided to leave things as-is. At that age, it seemed like it would have been traumatic. Plus, it would have been like "Hi, we're your new parents and were going to inflict horrible pain on you. You cool with that?"

[politicat]

137. Being female, I don't have the bit in question, but my nephew does.

My sister's big reason for not circumcising was that she'd found some research that showed that rape was a significantly less common crime among men who had not been circumcised. She considered the idea and decided that anything that helps prevent rape is a good idea.

(The research was in one of her ethics classes while she was at ASU; sorry I don't have more of a reference. It's been six years and it's too late to call her.)

[JVS]

139. St. Paul says it doesn't matter, so I guess leaving well enough alone...

couldn't hurt. ;-)

[Anarcho-Socialist]

142. No. When the child is a teenager, then he can decide for himself n/t

[rbnyc]

145. Medical procedures should have a purpose...

...that outweighs any risks, however small. Any type of medical interventions should have a real purpose and result in something meaningful to those involved.

My husband is not circumcised, and neither is our son.

[Xithras]

150. Have two, both circumcised.

The first was for religious reasons and tradition...things that do matter to my family. If you don't think those are worthy enough reasons, that's your opinion.

The second boy was a medically necessary circumcision to correct a malformation. We were going to have him trimmed anyway, but as the doctor said: "Either we remove it, or he pees like a girl for the rest of his life". Enough said.

[Monk06]

153. Turtle necks or so 60s. Bow in fear to the helmet headed monster.

[nosillies]

160. My husband is British, so his is a rollneck jumper!

[Monk06]

162. My dad is Brit and he's a heavy schwinger*

[Evoman]

154. My gf says she prefers uncut. Heh, which I am.

You get less friction, less drying, etc with a foreskin. I think cicumcision is stupid. It all started for religious reasons, and then people decided to find other justifications for mutilating their kids. I really don't care what the fuck you do to your kids, but if a doctor or anyone else tried to circumcize my future kids, I would hurt that person. Badly.

[Kali]

155. been there, didn't do that twice.

Figure it's their choice. Don't have anything against it, pretty harmless, but lots easier to trim than put back in my life experience - heh heh


I think there has been some embarrassment at being in the minority in high school, but figure if it wasn't one thing it sure as hell would have been something else - almost all of us feel like some kind of freak at that age ....

[GoneOffShore]

158. born in 1948

It was done automatically then.

Do I remember the pain? Let's see, I sprained my ankle in June and I remember that, kind of but not really.

Any regrets? Uhh, no.

Advantages. Well, duh! No smell, no smeg, and no one ever refusing to give me a BJ.

And I don't really care about the "mutilation" issues. It's not. With women it definitely is. But for guys? The foreskin is like the appendix. No useful function.

[Monk06]

164. GoneOffShore, *They say cut guys last longer but don't tell anyone ..

if it gets out neither one of us will get any
sleep*

[datasuspect]

170. no useful function?

the foreskin PROTECTS all those USEFUL nerve endings which make any activity around the glans penis very sensitive and EXTREMELY pleasurable.

circumcized guys are missing out.

[Blue-Jay]

163. There is a circumcision thread about once or twice a year.

They're always long & amusing, and you can always count on someone saying something stupid.

[Amaya]

165. no

my son isn't. he's just fine.
no need for it, period.

[Tyo]

166. I don't think so

My parents decided not to mess with perfection :7

[FreeState]

167. MrCoffee can I suggest you post this in the GLBT forum?

Reason being, I noticed you said you had never given his much thought. As a gay man I have given it a lot of thought. Most likely your child will be a heterosexual, however on the off chance he is lucky enough to be gay it might be helpful to see it from the other side.

Most people are attracted to that which they do not have, and the same can be true for cut vrs uncut. Personally the only thing I would change in my parents choices, out side of raising us Mormon, would be that they let us decide for our selves what we wanted done as adults.

[CanuckAmok]

168. Sigh.... okay....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=862903#863469

The only people on this forum who have the authority or expertise to comment on this issue are adult males who have been both uncut and cut at an age in which they were conscious of the difference.

That extremely elite group includes me.

It's not "genital mutilation". Castration, clitorectomy, etc, are examples of genital mutilation.

Circumcision is as much mutilation as an apendectomy or tonsilectomy can be considered mutilation.

Fact: In my case, and in the cases of several men I know who were adult circumcised (two being late converts to Judiasm), sexual stimulation and orgasm intensity increased following the procedure.

So much for the argument that it deprives the "victim" of pleasure.

Fact: although it only takes a moment to retract the foreskin for regular personal hygeine, a vast majority of men who are uncircumcised do not do so, and thereby increase their risk of contracting and transmitting STDs.

Fact: foreskins which are dry (occasional dry skin) or tight often develop tiny cuts or tears, which can in turn expose the bloodstream to a sexual partner's genitalia.

Fact: W.H.O. statistics indicate that uncircumcised heterosexual men run a higher risk of contracting HIV, although the reasons for this phenomena have yet to be determined.

Fiction: circumcision causes misogyny (this ludicrous theoryt was tabled a few years ago by a misandrist who suggested that circumcised men who assaulted/hated their female partners did so because of a deep-seeded memory of the pain of infant circumcision, and placed the blame for the pain on the mother/woman.

Complete bullshit.

There are valid arguments on both sides of the issue, and this trendy anti-cutting movement is just as "barbaric" as the pro-cut side.

If I had a son, I'd have him circumcised as soon as it was medically safe to do so. I wouldn't have it done ritually, because I believe that is barbaric; I would have it done under a general anesthetic, and by an experienced surgeon.

Very few people are qualified to argue for either side of this issue.

[Benfea]

169. I used to not care about this question...

...then I came across this bit of trivia (on NPR?): the AIDS infection rate for uncircumcized men is higher than for circumcized men. That's something worth thinking about.

[FreeState]

171. Breast cancer risk is less if one has the brests removed

Breast cancer risk is less if one has the brests removed, should we remove all of those too? After all they say nothing about being a woman </sarcasm>

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

172. No. Let Him choose as an Adult.

My son is not circumsized. He can choose when he reaches Adulthood.
His Body, His Choice.

[Xipe Totec]

173. I'm right with you there

Have two sons, neither circumcised at birth. One had to be circumcised for medical reasons at age 18. The other not. Both are grateful they had the choice and made it themselves.

:thumbsup:

[last_texas_dem]

174. This is

one of the weirdest flamewars that seems to come up on this site. I guess it's just funny to me that people have such passionate feelings about it on either side. As a male circumcised at a few days old, I don't remember any pain and haven't had any adverse effects that I can think of due to it. In fact, I don't even think I realized that I was until I was a teenager; I guess I just figured they all looked like that! So this talk about "mutilation" and whatnot seems like hyperbole; as far as I know circumcised units work just as well as non-circumcised, and seem to lead to less problems in later life, though overall the value of doing it may be fairly negligible if the owner of the non-circumcised unit practices proper hygiene and safe sex practices. Really, I guess I don't have anything of much value to contribute to this discussion; I'm in my early twenties and not planning on having children anytime soon and, as I noted above, this is a subject I've probably thought about ten times more than I ever had before after reading posts on this site. I tend to agree, though, with the poster above who compared foreskin removal to appendix removal and place more stock in the two (that I noted) posters who actually had the process done when they were older and have some basis for comparison. CanuckAmok (I believe) made a post that I think puts the whole issue in perspective, and makes some points I would take into account if I ever have to make this decision regarding a child.

[Fuzz]

175. If I would have had a son, I would have said no

I wish I wasn't, but I didn't have a say in the matter.

I have two daughters, so that didn't come up.