Why is it that many women who believe in gender equality still ...

[RagingInMiami]

judge men by their financial status and expect them to fall into the traditional man's role when it comes to money?

In other words, many women tend to still consider financial security one of the top factors when considering dating a man regardless of his education, future goals, compatability and genuine attractiveness.

They may expect the man to help clean the house, wash dishes, cook dinner, buy groceries, etc., but many women also expect the man to provide some type of financial security or incentive. If a woman makes more than the average man, she will automatically seek someone who makes more than her.

If a woman is single and struggles to make ends meet like many of us, she has no shame in announcing that she is seeking a man who "can take care of her". But if a man is struggling to make ends meet, and announces that he is seeking a woman who can take of him, he is automatically labeled a loser, a user, a boozer and an abuser.

Now I know this post will prompt all kinds of "not me's" from the women in the lounge, but in my 37 years of being single, I've learned that this is frequently the case.

So I would like to hear from single DUers about your views on this topic. I suspect the answers will differ depending on gender.

[Chan790]

1. I've got to believe you're wrong

Pretty much the one sure thing in my field of choice, which I am not currently working BTW, is that the more education I get, the same my salary will stay and that salary will be $30-40K if I'm lucky.

Never had a problem getting dates, usually date women making 2x-3x what I do, probably because I don't care who makes more money. It's not important.

[ForrestGump]

6. Hell, I'd LOVE to date a woman who makes two to three times what I make

:D

Unfortunately, a few days ago I found that my favorite 'working girl' (turns out we had a bit of a mutual crush, but she was just a friend) is leaving town... :-(

From now on, I only go out with women who make $500 an hour. :D

Or less...

[Chan790]

13. Ha..the secret to my success

Well, it my case it's not hard. I've been on a salary spiral for 4 years. Thankfully I still have a wardrobe of spiffy duds.

I left a position designing in-house fundraising/alumni-tracking/"kitchen sink" software for a university($28,625/yr.) to join an ultra-small NPO effectively working as the development director despite being an AmeriCorps member(for $9,900/yr.) because I really believed in the work (if I'd been a normal employee, I'd have been worth around $42K, but they couldn't afford that), left to be a live-in caretaker to my grandma after she developed lung cancer ($500/month stipend plus shelter, food, utilities, internet) and am returning to the workforce as a management trainee at Starbucks ($12.50/hr.) because I'm "toxic" after a 30-month leave of absence and Starbucks will send me to graduate school.

[ForrestGump]

2. Oops. Might I suggest that you copy "many" from your

second paragraph and paste it in place of "most" in your subject line? You're still going to get some contention, but I'd say it's more accurate and perhaps more what you're really saying here.

Certainly here in Las Vegas what you're saying resonates very, very strongly -- this place was built on and is still today obsessed with fast money and many of the women here allegedly are opportunistic predators (I know men often claim such, in general, but in Vegas they may actually have more of a point...and, to be fair, in this town many of the men are predators of another sort). And in my perusals of various personal ads -- not shopping (at least not yet), just idly curious as to who exactly is out there -- I've certainly seen a lot of stuff that reinforces certain 'traditional' gender-role expectations regarding breadwinning (and in this I do not count the many ads that blatantly ask for sugardaddies).

Overall, though, with the women that I really know on a personal level -- even though my wife utterly destroyed me, financially -- I can't say I support that thesis. Maybe it's that I am attracted to (and here I mean not just sexual/romantic attraction) women who aren't likely to be that way, or maybe it's just that if there's to some degree a statistically significant tendency for women to want some fiscal sugar from their 'daddy' it's more than offset by the behavior and attitudes of the misogynistic bastards who seem to comprise a good deal of the male population and who only want babes with physical perfection far, far beyond their own.

[lukasahero]

57. Actually, I'd recommend "some"

If this were about many men, it would be torn to shreds.

[ForrestGump]

61. YES...even better

Most Many Some men would certainly agree!

[SteppingRazor]

3. Eh, I've seen both sides of this Ragin'...

my fiancee makes twice as much as I do, and it's never been a problem. At the same time, I have plenty of female friends who refuse to date men who make less than they do.

I think part of it, though, is due to where we live. :shrug:

[trackfan]

4. I have a feeling this will come in handy

[idgiehkt]

5. I want to be taken care of too. (not that I ever have been)

And at this point I don't think I'll even discriminate on the basis of gender.

I don't know how to vote.

It seems like women have become alot more open about just stating they want ot be taken care of here in the last few (5? 10? 15?) years. But then, I know gay men who are looking for a partner who can take care of them, or who freely admit they want someone with money.

I don't know if something changed or if women are just telling the truth about stuff lately, like before in feminism they were pretending. Life sucks, and it's hard...I do sometimes resent female friends of mine who've always had their husband's income to rely on, like the friend who told me she could help me by 'putting me on a budget', but who married at like 19 to a guy who made $$$$. Yet at the same time with the struggles I've had and some discrimination I've faced I'm almost inclined not to fault women for looking for the person with the $$$ if that's what they want. At least they are honest.

[ForrestGump]

9. Good point. At least they are honest.

It'd remove them handily from my list of candidates, if I had such a list, because to me love has zero to do with practicalities like income, hers or mine. Kind of idealistic but, hey, if you can't be idealistic about love, what can you be idealistic about?

Good luck to them but, just as I wouldn't count assets and income as a factor in being attracted to a woman (shoot, I wouldn't complain if she was a rich sugarmommy, but that'd be just a bonus at best), I wouldn't want some woman coming after me because she thought I was well-off or had potential to soon be. Love and relationships can be hard enough to keep real as it is.

[idgiehkt]

26. you might not know

she might trick ya...

[NewWaveChick1981]

7. I'm not single, but I do indeed believe in gender equality.

My husband is not wealthy, doesn't make a lot of money, and isn't high on the social ladder. I make a lot more money than he does, and I don't complain. However, I also have about 90% of the responsibility (not my choice, but that's how it is) for everything else as well. (It didn't start out that way, but it's become so.) I didn't marry him for money---however, some help around the house would be most welcome. I don't see guys as financial tickets, and I do not expect any guy to support me---I'm very independent and can do that quite well by myself.

If I were to suddenly find myself single and start dating again, money would still not be an issue. I would look for a guy who's independent, kind, honest, and sincere with a great sense of humor and a wild side. Anything else is just extra. :)

[ForrestGump]

22. For Your Consideration...

Independent



Kind



Honest



Sincere



Great sense of humor



Wild side



"Anything else is just extra"




:o

Oh, this time you've gone too far, boy! You goin' to hell!!


:hide:

[ZombieNixon]

8. I wondered about this once...

I don't anymore. The kind of women who are right for me don't care about this stuff. One of the reasons why my ex-girlfriend was totally the wrong person for me was because she was way too materialistic and insisted on "stuff." The women I have good relationships with don't think like that. While I fully intend to live well and not have to worry about money all the time, I don't let it control my life. If a girl wins the lotter and can think of a way to spend every penny of that money on herself, then I'm not interested, because I can't think of a way to spend $10 million. I'd buy a decent house and give most of the rest to charity and I'd want a woman who thinks the same way. (It's why I'm attracted to liberals ;))

That being said, I don't concentrate as much on all (or most) women as I do the woman I'm with at the time. :shrug:

[nini]

10. You're right and wrong

depends on the woman.

[Deep13]

11. Answers don't match the question.

The question is "Why...?" And the answers are basically yes or no. The answer is because women know that marriage is primarily an economic arrangement. Love is pretty flexible but at the end of the month one still has to pay the rent. In fact, most divorces are caused by money or lack thereof. Starting with the finances and then seeing if everything else is good too is a very pragmatic way of looking at it.

[LeftyMom]

12. Being broke sucks and men generally make more money

Of course pretty much anybody'd pick a guy who makes a reasonable amount of money over one who has to dig around in the couch cushions to take a girl out to the movies. How much that matters probably varies a lot, but especially when having kids is a possibility at some point not considering finances would be irresponsible.

[L A Woman]

17. Excellent answer, LeftyMom!

It would be dishonest to say money doesn't matter at all. Why would I be attracted to an irresponsible spender or an adult who lives with their parents? BUT, I would never look solely for a person who makes a certain amount of money, either. Somewhere in the middle is fine!

[nini]

27. I disagree. You should 'pick' a guy you love

all the other things after can be worked on after.

As far as kids go no one should have them that can't afford them. IF you choose another partner purely on the basis of a financial situation then you're having kids with them for the wrong reasons.

[LeftyMom]

28. Of course, I'm just saying that you can't eat love.

Compatibility and other issues are important (and I would personally say that they're much more important, but I wouldn't judge somebody for feeling that stability came first) but it's almost impossible to raise a family or maintain a healthy relationship when you can barely afford to eat. It's smart and fair to both parties (and vital to the welfare of potential offspring) to be sure there's enough earning capacity to manage everyday living and emergency contingencies before getting serious.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nini]

32. Unfortunately a man with plenty of money isn't always a good choice

They can be major dickheads and up and leave you to raise your kids on your own. So, what is worse? Being stuck with the aftermath of that or taking it upon yourself and your not-so-rich mate to improve yourself to earn what money you need?

Any woman that picks a man based on what he can provide is practically a whore in my mind - just a legal one. I have a friend that married a guy because she needed the help raising her 3 kids after their fathers took off. She is miserable and treats this guy like crap because there's no love in the relationship. It's disgusting.

the solution? Educate/train yourself to be able to live the lifestyle you want on your own.

[LeftyMom]

33. I'm not saying to look solely at income

I'm just saying that it's a reasonable factor to consider in a society where it's nearly impossible to get by on a single income. Even if the female makes a bundle, what if she wants to take a few year off to raise the kids or loses her job or becomes disabled? It's reasonable and responsible to consider those contingencies in advance.

[RagingInMiami]

34. But my point was

If a man actively seeks out a women with money, he is considered scum.

[idgiehkt]

44. true. I give you

Kevin Federline

[Darth_Kitten]

56. I think it's because he indiscriminately just fathers babies with anybody.

:evilgrin:

[tigereye]

53. yup - go for love

although I have friends who have laughed at me when I said that people should be somewhat financially stable prior to having kids.... their feeling was that no one could afford kids... ;)

I used to make more money than my husband for many years when he was a starving artist, and now he makes way more than me as a software guy. So it kind of works out. Aren't people supposed to take turns, anyway?

[huskerlaw]

14. I'm a single woman and

I believe that your comments were a ridiculously broad generalization...and perhaps you should try looking for different types of women.

Are there women who want to marry for financial stability? Of course. Is that true of a majority of women? Perhaps. Is that true of a large majority of women? No.

I'm a single woman with a fairly decent job and a fairly decent paycheck. Money is a consideration when I decide whether or not to date a man, that's true, but it's not so that he can support me. Rather, it's so that I don't have to support him. Of course I would like a man who makes way more than me...who the hell wouldn't? But it's far more important to me that he's financially stable--not so he can take care of me, but so that I don't have to worry about or deal with his financial issues.

Another aspect to that is if a guy has serious financial issues like extreme credit card debt, it's a warning flag. The same is true for women. Obviously, there are exceptions and totally acceptable explanations, but a guy with credit issues would be a concern.

In short, I don't expect a guy to support me, but I don't want to support him either.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

15. I'm sure that my geographic location factors into this for me

Because I never really encountered this until I moved to NYC (from the Midwest). (Age maybe plays a factor too. I'm in my 20s.)

I can say, however, that this was definitely a MAJOR issue for the last woman I dated; I'm not poor by any means, but she made well over 6 figures/yr -- and issues surrounding money definitely reared their head frequently. A lot of this came into play over dinner's out/parties/galas/etc. I worked as a cook at a gourmet restaurant throughout college, so I'm quite a good cook (if I may toot my own horn). I cooked for us frequently, but at some point, my inability to pay for several meals a month (for both of us) at Nobu or Spice Market or (insert ridiculously priced restaurant here) became a serious issue in our relationship and led to its demise.

And I have encountered similar issues with other women I've dated out here; I've even been dumped by a woman who made much LESS than I did solely because she believed that she could be dating a guy who made a lot MORE than I did/do.

There is another phenomenon I've encountered here (and it spans both genders) that may be applicable (or at least something to think about w/r/t the OP): pretty much across the board, I've found that nearly every college-educated, 20-something straight woman in NYC believes that they should be dating:
Some guy who is over 6' tall, makes at least 6 figures a year and has a degree from an Ivy League school.

All the 20-something, college-educated guys believe that they should be dating the female equivalent, AKA Natalie Portman.

Anyway, I could go on, but I'll stop here. I should add that I think that this entire phenomenon (in NYC, at least) can be attributed to Sex and the City, Friends and Seinfeld -- all shows that glorified and created an allure about being single in NYC and all featured main characters who would date WAY higher than their station (ever see some of the women Costanza was dating??? Yeah...right...) and who would nitpick them and dump them based on the slightest imperfections.

[liontamer]

19. where are you hanging out?

you get what you're looking for. If you go to yuppie places and date women who've bought into the professional girl stereotype, then you're only going to date that type of woman.

New York is pretty shallow, but if you aren't willing to dig deeper, you can't expect anyone else to.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

35. I don't think it's a matter of where I'm hanging out

First off, I live in Williamsburg; it's a fairly arty crowd. My longest relationship (2 years) in NYC began here. But still, I find the attitude I described to be quite prevalent even amongst the hipster set. It's kind of odd when you're sitting around with your gf and all of her friends (who sort of dress like they're homeless) and listening to them complain about how one of the guys they're dating is only making $50K, etc.

I also know a fair amount of law students here. 'Nuff said.

I know a lot of theater people (actor/actress-y types); again, most of them seem like they're looking for someone to support their theater habit.

I rarely, if ever, go above 14th St. And I have a general rule about not paying more than $6 for a beer as far as drinking establishments go.

The Wall Streeter I was dating was a major anomaly in my scene; we met pretty randomly. And I actually thought that money wouldn't be as much of a big deal because she made so much. That was wrong, however.

I don't really think this is a "shallow" issue; as I said, this phenomenon (which stretches across to most of my male friends too) seems to be more about a sense of privilege and entitlement. That is, it's not just about looks or just about money; most of the young-ish people I know out here seem to have this sense that they are young and educated and living in NYC and that nothing but the very best will suffice: breeding, salary, educational pedigree, and on and on.

[liontamer]

41. i think the type of hipster who drinks on the LES and lives in WB

is just the type of person who is going to be the most superficial. I think it all comes down to your finding what you expect to find. If you start with the assumption that women just want men who make a lot ofmoney, you're going to spend a lot of time with those women, and you're going to put off women who aren't like that. (heck you probably ignore them anyway)

[Tyrone Slothrop]

45. Funny how a person gives their take on a situation

Relays maybe 4-5 paragraphs worth of information and someone on a message board decides that they know exactly what a person is doing, where they spend their time, how they should change their life to be more like them and, most insultingly, what sort of people I "ignore".

For the record, I couldn't tell you the last time I was on the LES. And lately I spend most of my time in gay bars in Brooklyn because that's where most of my friends live and hang out.

Also, for the recored, I mentioned that this attitude seems to be prevalent among both men and women in NYC; I also mentioned that I didn't find this to be the case back in the Midwest. Of course, according to you, I "start with the assumption that women..."

[RagingInMiami]

48. My friend Bruno lives in Williamsburg

He took me to that pub where they sell these huge beers for a few bucks, but you have to drink it out of a styrofoam cup.

[RagingInMiami]

54. Geographical location plays a huge role in this

I live in Miami, one of the most superficial cities in the country, so the money factor is big down here.

[liontamer]

16. you're wrong

you forget that a) not all women believe in gender equality, and b) a lot of men still want male superiority

Since a lot of people fall into those 2 categories, they like to fit into the stereotyped gender roles.

however women who believe in gender equality (and aren't starving) will not need to find men who "can take care of them" at least not financially and thus don't spend a lot of time looking for that.

Conversely, men who are uncomfortable with women having more financial power, will seek out a woman who makes less.

Of course there is the added sting of the self fulfilling prophecy. If you think men/women are only after one thing, then you're only going to be with people like that, because your own beliefs will always influence the choices you make.

[jobycom]

18. I'm still mulling over the whole toilet seat conundrum

I mean, it's no harder for a woman to lower it when needed than for a man to raise it. Actually, easier, given gravity (though gravity is a theory and may not apply in some households). Why do men have to raise it? Though, to be fair, in my household it was my wife who failed to lower the toilet seat. I always closed the entire lid, because my cats were always falling in the darned bowl, and there's nothing worse than a wet cat. Well, that's not true, I mean, my youngest daughter got her finger slammed in the car door once, and that was worse. But still, a wet cat is something to avoid, so she could have just lowered the darned lid like I did, but no, she was too special to have to, all because she made a lot more than I did and was a bank VP and stuff, and I stayed home with the kids and sacrificed a meaningful career so I could cook and clean and...

I forgot the question. Something about why some people follow gender stereotypes, wasn't it? You get what you are looking for, and you live with what you are willing to accept, and all else is just someone else's generalization. I think.

[liontamer]

21. great answer

"You get what you are looking for, and you live with what you are willing to accept, and all else is just someone else's generalization."

[supernova]

20. Here's my take on it

When I was married I made more than my ex... and that's not saying a whole lot. But marrying someone who made more money than me was never the top priority. I'm quite capable of paying my own way.

Here's what I don't want: Someone who is listless, whining about his direction in life and contemptous of a meagre situation without trying to change it, makes me react negatively. Frankly that's not a situation that a lover/spouse can resolve for you. I can support you in whatever you decide, of course, but I can't lead you around by the nose to your mission in life.

Here's what I do want: I do look for someone who does feel he has a purpose in life. If he's a mechanic and good at that, and enjoys it, great. If he feels acomplished by daytrading on the 'net, that's OK too. IOW, it's vitally important that he have his shit together about who he thinks he is and what he's doing in this life.


As for women who want a mealticket being more honest about it ... well, I don'tknow. There have always been self-acknowledged "gold diggers," to use a more archaic term.

[GirlinContempt]

23. Well, my 'not me' trumps your 'frequent experience'

in my own case. I've dated men who make less than me, more than me, the same as me. It doesn't fucking matter. The only time salary comes into it is if the salary is an indication of their lack of personal motivation or goals. I need someone who has SOME direction, even if it winds up in poverty. The 35 year old guy who works at the gas station because it's easier and never thinks about doing anything else with his life? Not for me. The 35 year old guy who works at the gas station while doing x y z that he feels makes his life meaningful? Just fine.

[RagingInMiami]

24. Cradle robber

[GirlinContempt]

25. pft

[Texasgal]

29. I have consistantly made more money

than my parmours! Never bothered me in the least... if anything it bothered many of them though! :shrug:

[NewJeffCT]

30. My wife makes more than me...

Though, right now it is fairly close between the two of us.

All of my wife's female friends make more than their husbands, too. A couple of them make significantly more than their husbands. Heck, at our daughter's 2 year old birthday party 18 months back, I made the joke about losing face because I had the only wife that made less than her husband. (which was true at the time)

I am guessing my wife might make significantly more than me within 5 years, too. And, my wife is not exactly chopped liver in the looks department - so, it was not like I was a young trophy husband for her or anything.

[pitohui]

36. oh this one is easy

i have experienced significant discrimination as a woman, admittedly i'm older than 37, when i first started working, sexual harassment was not even illegal, i was unable to advance in my field where there were almost no women and i was unable to go further in my education in my field because it would have meant sleeping w. a key professor

in the last 30 years, i have missed out on the ability to earn an additional seven figures of income, merely because i am a woman who was not related to or married to or willing to sleep w. someone powerful who could "mentor" me

therefore i cannot tolerate a man who, given all of the opportunities i have been denied, refuses to take advantage of those opportunities -- tolerate, hell, i don't even respect such a man so why would i want to be in relationship with him?

further if the man is a financial failure and i too can't earn -- then we can't have a marriage or a family, we're both fucked -- it's a simple matter of survival

therefore the only man i could possibly consider for long term relationship or marriage is a man with a secure j-o-b

i can't change society, the reality for my generation is that gender equality is a nice idea but at this time i live on planet earth where it does not exist and never will exist for a woman of my generation

if you, as a male, are a financial failure, i am truly sorry, but i have enough baggage by virtue of being born female that i can't also lift up someone who had more advantages than i could ever dream of

any woman who refuses to look around her and see the reality -- which is that women don't get the same opportunities as men -- hint, look at who the bosses, senators, and ceo's are -- then that woman may be very pleasant but she is stupid, is stupid what you are looking for in a life partner?


yeah, yeah, all the anecdotal stories will come out w. guys claiming all the wonderful opportunities their wives have but i'm sorry, i'm not interested in rare unusual exceptions, the statistics and the realities just do not do not lie -- it's like telling the black man about all the wonderful opportunities in rap and basketball, guess what, it's irrelevant to reality

[RagingInMiami]

38. I am not a financial failure

I am a professional in the midst of launching a business, so income is not where it was when I had a full-time corporate job.

As a man, I've seen many women get opportunities that I was denied simply because they were women and knew how to flirt with the boss. I have no doubt that at the higher levels, these same women would hit a glass bottom. Before you get in an estrogen rage, I am not saying that all women who get promoted do so because of flirting.

I am not one who plays the brown-nosing game of office politics. I never joined a fraternity nor did I attend some Ivy League college, so I could not depend on the "brotherhood" to help me in my career. I am quite good at what I do and I've always preferred to let my work speak for itself.

However, I've discovered that some bosses view that as arrogance and will do anything they can to keep one down, which is why I left the corporate world to start my own business.

[pitohui]

42. well how nice for you

unfortunately my work was not allowed to speak for myself since I was stalked, threatened, and physically and sexually harassed -- i am glad you have so many terrific opportunities

so, what was your issue again? i'm confused

i'm getting a vibe that you don't really much like women -- there's a lack of empathy in your reply that is truly stunning -- let me put it to you bluntly --
the women you know who have to flirt to get ahead, the reality is that they have to do a lot more than flirt in a lot of situations, would you be willing to sleep w. some ugly old creep to get/keep a job? it's a choice you never even have to worry about! i'm sure the "flirtatious" women are doing what they have to do to survive, but it is certainly not anything that a sane person would envy...

you have all of this unquestioned opportunity and you envy a woman who has no choice but to sell herself

and you think you have a right to be bitter on top of it

well the grass is always greener, i guess

empathy can't be taught and it won't be learned at age 37, so i guess it isn't worth further discussion

i would just say, try reading my post again and then ask yourself why you flew off the handle in such a rage because i dared to mention that i was victim of harassment, does it offend you so much that you are not always the biggest victim in the room? believe you me, it's a status i would be happy to trade to you if i could

[RagingInMiami]

49. So just because I didn't whip out my violin and play you a sob song

I have a "lack of empathy", I "don't really much like women" and I "flew off the handle in such a rage"?

Well now that we're playing online psychologists, I'm determining that you not only hate men, but you also hate women.

"I have enough baggage by virtue of being born female"

I also have determined that you have decades of anger and resentment built up inside you, which makes you a truly unhappy person. It also makes you lack empathy.

I wonder if perhaps your failure to advance in the workplace is due more to your attitude and your obvious hatred of other people rather than your unwillingness to sleep with your boss. After all, we tend to create our own realities.

My psychological diagnosis would make Sigmund Freud proud. You obviously suffer from a case of "penis envy".

After all, you did say that because of your experiences as a woman, "it's a status I would be happy to trade to you if I could."

[idgiehkt]

62. wow.

you kind of lost me there with the penis envy.

and I was leaning in your direction. bummer.

two things she said really struck a nerve with me:
1) "any woman who refuses to look around her and see the reality -- which is that women don't get the same opportunities as men -- hint, look at who the bosses, senators, and ceo's are -- then that woman may be very pleasant but she is stupid, is stupid what you are looking for in a life partner?"
that smarts. For a long time I looked down on women I knew that made certain choices, but now just about every damn one of them is in whole lot better position financially than I am at this stage or probably every will be if the truth be told, yet at the time when I was judging them I actually believed I was smarter than them. Apparently not. Looking back on it now it seems they were alot more pragmatic, shrewd and realistic than me, and their positions in life relative to mine speak to that.

2) "would you be willing to sleep w. some ugly old creep to get/keep a job? it's a choice you never even have to worry about! i'm sure the "flirtatious" women are doing what they have to do to survive, but it is certainly not anything that a sane person would envy..."
I've seen enough of this happen in my twenty years of working to know it's a reality, even though I wouldn't say that all women do it out of desperation. In this case it seems to be intra-gender competition in alot of cases, and where it exists it's rare that in the battle of brains vs. vagina that brains actually win, when you are talking about two females competing. At least not in my experience.

You both have such valid points that it really stinks it's degenerated into the two of you having to rip each other apart.

[RagingInMiami]

65. The "penis envy" thing was just me being snide

After all, she had already accused me of much worse.

[idgiehkt]

66. I'm relieved about that

because it's tired, and anachronistic at this point. Any woman who wants a penis these days can buy one (or several).

[bettyellen]

60. no choice but to sell herself?

what utter bullshit.
the fact that you don't see people have choices says alot.
this total victim tude probably didn't do you much good in the workplace either.

[Chan790]

39. Every boss I've ever had was a woman

with the exception of one gay man (I don't care that he's gay, I noted it b/c gay men faced discrimination in the workplace similar to that which you cite) whose three immediate superiors were women.

I just don't think it is the problem it was even 10 years ago. The attitudes which held you down (which are/were admittedly shitty beyond compare) are leaving the employment arena, both because they are increasingly not-tolerated and because they were held in the first place by patriarchal bastards who are retiring and/or dropping-dead at an ever-increasing rate.

I'd argue that this one is increasingly unacceptable as well: i have enough baggage by virtue of being born female

[pitohui]

43. it obviously depends on your field of expertise

in mine there is no more opportunity for women today than there was in 1970, period, end of sentence

[Deep13]

55. Reality sandwiches don't taste as good as sugary idealistic snacks,...

...but they are better for you.

[Deep13]

37. "Say baby, why don't you put down that pipe and get my pipe up?"

[Jamastiene]

40. It depends on the woman.

Women who believe in gender equality don't usually judge a man by his financial status. We go find a way to make money on our own. Some of us find a way to make money on our own and look for other women in order to do our coupling, so men are out of the picture in that regard altogether.

[LostinVA]

46. None of my straight women friends think like that

One's husband stays home and is Mr. Mom.

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. And yet, here I am with MrG... go figure.

I was single once, so I figured I could still answer. At the point I was ready to settle down, I did not even consider "financial set up"... only in terms of couch potato/not couch potato. I think people overthink this sometimes. I really do. :hi:

[MissMillie]

50. I don't know whether you are wrong or right but....

I can say that I think many women would like to have children one day, and then maybe the option to stay home for at least a while to take care of them. It's possible tha the women you are speaking of want to be sure that when they go on maternity leave, there will be someone to make sure the bills get paid.

[skygazer]

51. I think you're both right and wrong

I think you're right in that there are still plenty of women for whom finding a man with a good job, financial security and a steady paycheck are very important qualities to have.

But I think you're wrong in that you're not really seeing the complete picture.

Though we live in the 21st century, it is still more difficult for a woman to get ahead financially. It's still more difficult for a woman to get into many businesses or careers and those tend to be the more financially lucrative careers. Men still make, on average, more than women do. Men still, on average, get promoted more often than women. In short, it is still somewhat of a "man's world" in the workplace.

In addition, divorce tends to leave women less financially stable than men. Oh, I know men get saddled with child support and alimony more often than women do (and believe me, I relate - I just finished 6 years of paying child support to my ex-husband). Even so, they tend to have less savings and financial security because they usually have children to support and who limit their working ability.

I don't mean to say that I view any of that as the fault of men particularly - it just simply is what it is. And what it means is that women tend to look more closely at earning potential than men do because whereas a woman's income is usually not as critical in staying financially afloat to her future husband, a man's can be to a woman.

That said, I've never looked for a man to support me but I do want a man who can support himself.

[Sugar Smack]

52. Many women who believe in gender equality believe in

EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK. First and foremost. Equal pay for equal work would CERTAINLY balance things out, but apart from a few "aberrations" that's not going to happen without a fight. It's too bad, and it makes the "romance" angle of the argument immaterial.

For example, why would I once consider choosing a man for just his income when I instinctively believe he'd lord it over me somehow, or I'd feel financially indebted. What is "frequently the case" in your experience is the utmost rarest in mine. I've known many women, hundreds, and I've known two that would tidily fit your expectations. And the others I only see on TV- "Blind Date" or other trashy reality shows.

[idgiehkt]

58. I have that "indebtedness" thing too

I think it's a control issue or something.

The only person I ever dated seriously that made more money than me was also the one I never lived with. I think, well, I know, that I don't handle that too well. It has a really skeevy feeling to it. I always wonder how women who do date/marry people with a larger income keep their sense of power in the relationship...because I think mine would just evaporate. It was hard enough just being with this woman because she was very materialistic and everything she owned, even her sheets, had a brand name on them, whereas I got my clothes and stuff from good will and hate brand stuff and trendy stuff. I don't think she ever really understood that because her whole family and friends group was into 'keeping up with the joneses' and I always suspected she looked at my failure to be a good consumer as a serious flaw, even though she never stated that outright.

But I do hear this 'wanting a man with money' thing all the time on tv, like on dating shows.

[HEyHEY]

59. I don't believe that

I know a lot of women who pretty well share fiscal responsibility with their partners right down the middle and like it that way.

[ashling]

63. I'm a marrried man (26 1/2 yrs to the same woman) and

I think you are full of shit (respectfully, of course)

[buddhamama]

64. Not Me

seriously, I am not what you have encountered/experienced/described.

I think having money is often thought of as security/stability. Shallowness can be a factor too.