Will I be able to get anywhere...

[Writer]

without encountering the vicious cruelty of others? I'm not talking about mere pettiness - that's to be expected. I'm talking about the jawdropping efforts that some will go in order to completely damage or destroy your goals. Complete viciousness. Is it possible for me to get anywhere in life without running into someone with such pernicious intentions?

[jpgray]

1. I'm sensing a pattern in these threads

I realize you're probably looking for support here and not advice, but I'd like to point out that you shouldn't let the actions of others define the way your life is going, and you certainly shouldn't allow the ugliness of others (again real or imagined) to constantly influence your state of mind long after the perpetrators have likely forgotten about whatever ill turn they did you. It just isn't worth it.

[Writer]

2. You're correct in recognizing a pattern to these threads...

but jpgray this has happened enough to me, in spite of the logical answers to move on, etc., that I now am in a state of wonder by how incredibly inane attempting any endeavor in life is! Why should I even continue trying at this point! Several times (no exaggeration) have I picked up and moved on and have yet again confronted a destructive individual.

I am in a state of moral disillusionment at the moment. I simply wonder about the pragmatics of being good to one another. Why even try anymore?

[idgiehkt]

11. they are out there.

I went through a complete fiasco/nightmare/disaster about three months ago and am still dealing with the fallout from that. I still have one loose end to tie up, someone that eventually I will have to confront but I am waiting until I can do it without flying into a rage, because I can't afford to lose control over it because that will only hurt me.

Remember 'time wounds all heals' and 'more will be revealed'. Not trying to lecture, just trying to be encouraging. Sometimes the cosmos dishes out karma to people...it's better that way anyway.

I personally feel that I was never warned about really twisted destructive people growing up and I remember the shock of finally having to accept it. I always was taught the golden rule, but not about the utter psychos running around in the world and how to protect yourself against them. I was taught most problems orinated with me and as such were within my realm of control to fix them. Not so. There is always someone jockeying for position, spreading lies for fun or spite, and blowing the boss. No matter what.

[Midlodemocrat]

3. As my mom used to say

Don't let anyone set your agenda. You are who you are, special in your own way.

Don't fall prey to the thought that everyone is cruel and misguided and devious. My impression has been just the opposite.

[ForrestGump]

4. Yes, you can, and you will

if you focus your attention and energies toward that side of things.

You'll run into these people now and then, and how they affect you is ultimately more often than not a direct function of how you let them affect you.

I'm dealing right now with the efforts of someone to directly sabotage me in my work -- there's a war, of sorts, going on -- and it's only for the practical benefits of victory that I've directed any energy at all towards the bozo. Otherwise I'm content to let him go on his path, knowing that the consequences of his behavior will catch up to him...my engaging him serves a dual purpose in that it will (I hope) allow me to regain (improve, actually) my position in that arena and also because -- and I see this as a bonus because it can be dangerous to your own state of mind and welfare to make this the goal -- in doing so I can crush him before me and listen to the lamenting of his woman, and all that good stuff.

Unless you've got a compelling reason to engage these people, just bypass them as you move through life, while still to an extent protecting your flanks. It's how Guderian and Rommel and company blitzkrieged their way across Europe -- you might actually profit from reading Sun Tzu's The Art of War, if you haven't already.

[Writer]

5. Have you encountered something to this extent before?

Where you are daily dealing with someone's abject cruelty such as this?

[ForrestGump]

6. Yes

In my work, more than once, in different kinds of fields.

And, to an extent in my personal life, but I've become much better at just walking away from that...it's often harder to do so in a work/career/school context, unfortunately.

EDIT: by 'my work,' I also mean my grad school tenure (had a lot of people lined up against me at different times)

[Writer]

7. Right... so after the third or fourth occassion...

what did you think about humanity and how did you deal with it? Well I think I can predict your answer here. Move on, etc. It's sort of like the advice they give to school kids in regard to bullying: "Just ignore them. There's nothing you can do about it."

So the person just sits there, feeling powerless, once more "moving on" (but not really) - carrying the pain of the past with them. We pretend that we're "empowering" ourselves by walking down new paths in life, accepting new projects, or new goals. We "move on," we tell ourselves, but we are not moving on at all, but more moving away, hoping that the span of distance and time will lend well to our healing.

Then one begins to notice that there, in fact, is something very wrong with society. That we permit this type of behavior, like what you are enduring now in your workplace, to continue so that we can continue playing some role in a world of man-made constructs. So that we can still be players on the conveyor belt that is our lives - processed and ready for packaging.

The one begins to wonder: Why do we let this continue - why do we endure this silliness? Why can't we do something different?

[ForrestGump]

9. "Move on" can be good advice

And I've certainly done it.

But I've also posted, on bulletin boards, cut-and-paste or otherwise modified artwork featuring the object of my ire (this was in the days before Photoshop) and indulged in various creative acts of subversion. As time went on, I tended to take more positive action in response to the unwarranted onslaughts of the piggies: for example, going over the heads of middle-management types and making the head honchos love me and give me carte blanche in doing what I needed to do; literally blitzkrieging a hateful and uncooperative dissertation committee who was out to crucify me in my university and in the larger academic community, gathering the necessary materials and taking the person by such surprise when I stormed in theior office that they complied with my wishes and did what they should have done in the first place; and fighting hard, in front of a (awful...but I was stuck with her) colleague who was trying to steal my project ideas during a meeting with our big kahuna, makign it clear that not only were they ideas I originated but that she was trying shamelessly to steal them. In other words, as time went on and my patience wore more thin and my confidence increased, I began to move from covert acts of subversion and revenge (always enjoyed very much by my peers, because the people who hassled me usually rode roughshod over everyone and, indeed, in almost all cases I was the favorite son who got the least of their negative behavior and got away with the most liberties) to direct confrontation, albeit in self-defense.

No, turnign the other cheek is not always the answer. But holding on to things can be even worse -- pick your battles, and don't let yourself hold on to bad energy if you can help it...give it back to the f***ers, if you need to, and then move on.

I am not inclined to turn the other cheek, in many ways, and I do admit -- some I have known have seen this as a character fault, but to hell with their opinions -- holding what might be called 'grudges.' But I don't let these pseudo-grudges be toxic to me because I can mentally put vendettas on the backburner for decades, if I need to, and just await the opportunity if it ever arises (it looks like I've let go and forgotten, if not forgiven, but I haven't...I just don't dwell long on the negativity because that stuff truly will poison you). If the opportunity never comes up, I've basically let go of the issue by then, anyway. But if I get the ideal chance, I'll go for a little payback just on principle. And it's more effective when the evildoers see it as coming from out of the clear blue sky, long after they'd forgotten the trangressions that inspired retribution. :-)

But revenge, payback, and all of that is dangerous for us...it can, quite literally, be toxic to an extreme. And it can ruin your life if you don't deal with it right. Similarly, 'moving on' can be, as you say, no more than sweeping things under a carpet, and that, too, can be detrimental. Either way, we too often set ourselves up to be haunted later by deeds and thoughts of yesterday.

As for what I think of humanity, my opinion was never high to think of. Quite the contrary. By which I mean that I'm recently re-evaluating my ideas on that and am deciding that perhaps most people are inherently good, most of the time, but that we are all capable of great 'evil' (for want of a better, less loaded word) and that -- certainly -- humankind, as a species, is not beneficial to this planet or to our fellow astronauts, ourselves included.

And I hate bullies. Always have. Was never a victim, but stood up for those who were. Nope -- you got me wrong on that one: I'd teach the victim of a bully to take care of himself or herself or, if the context was right, go in myself and teach the bully a lesson either with brute force or with more subtle and nonviolent ways of defanging the f***er.

[Writer]

10. That's a good answer..

and it's a good answer, in my opinion, because it's a measured answer. My husband and I have known each other for 12 years. Yet when I speak to him about such matters, it's like reading an old paperback self-help book, filled with trite expressions such as "move on," etc. When a person deals with a hurt that person doesn't want to hear trite little cliches as a means of dealing with the hurt. After a while (and I myself am at this point) I am so fed up with predatory older men (as is the issue in my case) that I crave something deeper - a more honest perspective. I have been stung one too many times. Then I wonder: if I were a man, would I be treated differently? Would I have opportunities that I wouldn't have as a woman? Then I get angry - but what can I do but enforce rule changes?

I am now in a state of shock. I have been in a state of shock for the last few weeks because of my last odd encounter with an older man. Everyone is telling me not to contact him, and quite frankly, I have no reason to contact him nor does he deserve a word from me. Yet I don't expect him to contact me either, because he is an arrogant fuck who is in a position of power. I think the most refreshing character I've watched in movies is Helen Hunt's character in "As Good as it Gets." She was real to people. She demanded respect. She had no problem calling Jack Nicholson a "crazy fuck" because that's precisely what he was. In social settings, we are often too polite to counter a person who treats you incorrectly. In work settings, workers are too scared to rock the boat when a coworker (or even boss) acts out of line. We walk on eggshells too often nowadays in American society, and that permits negative types to flourish. It's the very reason why George Bush has lasted in politics as long as he has.

And what about us - do we sit around and wait? Hardly. I know when to pick my battles, as I have my entire life. I'm better at it now than I ever have been. But that doesn't mean for one second that I'm not about to confront a person, or push to change workplace rules, or whatever means I can enforce to cut the bullshit I see everyday in our manmade institutions.

[Deep13]

8. Could you be more specific?

:shrug:

[rug]

12. I didn't know Ned Lamont posted here!