Something I've noticed in pic threads

[Oeditpus Rex]

Women can say to other women, "Girl, you are gorgeous!" and whatnot, and many do so quite freely.

Guys — hetero guys, anyway — apparently can't.

What's wrong with us? :shrug:

[SeattleGirl]

1. You mean you can't say that women are gorgeous?

Or that you can't compliment a man on how he looks (not that you would say "gorgeous" to a guy, but you know what I mean.)

And as far as saying that to a woman, hell, I'd love it myself.

[billyskank]

6. He means that (hetero) guys can't compliment other guys

or, they find it very difficult. I can and have done it, but infrequently.

[SeattleGirl]

14. That's what I thought, but given that it's late at night for me,

I wanted to be sure that I was understanding what he meant.

[Heidi]

2. What's stoppin' ya?

:shrug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

3. Homophobia, I guess

I'm ashamed to admit it's there, but... :shrug:

[Heidi]

4. OK, well that's solvable.

You can take the first step later today, when Call Me Wesley posts his photo. How's that? :hug:

:loveya: for your honesty (among other things), my friend.

[Oeditpus Rex]

21. That's too easy

CMW is blazin' hawt.



Besides — he's my friend. :pals:

And somehow, I feel his Yurpeenness noteworthy, as Yurpeens by reputation don't share Mer'kins' homophobia. That makes it a lot easier.

[Heidi]

24. Agreed. He's plenty hawt.

But your wrists may be a smidgeon hawter. :*

[begin_within]

60. Gay men don't compliment each other all that much. It's more frequent for

them to put each other down (in a playful way usually).

[NMMNG]

5. Societally ingrained fear of being seen as gay

Men are typically brought up to believe that it's better to be suspected of being an ax murderer than of being gay.

[Oeditpus Rex]

7. Yup

All through that adolescence thing, the absolute worst thing a guy can be called is gay, or anything that alludes to gayness.

Guys generally stop doing that after high school, but the lesson is well-learned.

[Heidi]

9. Isn't that odd?

I'd think the worst thing anyone could be, or be called, is a bully, or mean-spirited. :shrug:

[billyskank]

11. Oh, come, you've been at school.

You must remember that the playground is the most reactionary place of all, bar none.

[Heidi]

13. Yes, of course, I was at school.

Being gay isn't the worst thing one can be, or be called. I was raised by thinking people, and taught that being gay is no different than having red hair, or brown eyes, or being tall or short. So when I heard "gay" used as a slur, my reaction was, "Is that all you've got?"

[billyskank]

16. Of course being gay isn't a bad thing

Good heavens, what do you take me for? My point is that it's pretty difficult to be a progressive in a place as reactionary as a playground, especially when you're as insecure and immature as a child is. Children take what is normal from their peers at least as much as their parents.

[Heidi]

22. No doubt, you're right about that.

But we do have the power to change that, and progress has been made, though not nearly enough. When I was in school, there would have been church and parental pickets if students had attempted to start a Gay/Straight Student Alliance, or a GLBT support group. Things are different now, but many of us hang on to the feelings we had about what we perceived as slurs when we were kids, when (in fact) they weren't really slurs at all. When we stop considering "gay" a slur, and acting as if it's a slur, the word will have no derogatory power.

Further, the DU Rules make it possible for men here to compliment other men; personal attacks aren't tolerated.

[Oeditpus Rex]

12. You've never been an adolescent male

At least, one assumes. :P

[billyskank]

10. I'm not sure it's that exactly

I think that complimenting each other's looks is not a very masculine thing to do. Men are still very constrained into their gender role.

That was the part of the mission of feminism that has not yet been adequately addressed: in addition to changing the gender role of women, a concomittant change in the gender role of men is also required.

[Heidi]

15. But once one realizes that he or she is constrained by an unrealistic

gender role, what's to stop that person, from just getting over it, or getting help to get over it? :shrug:

I think making a genuine compliment to another person, regardless of gender, is a very _human_ thing to do.

[billyskank]

17. Yes, they can certainly do that

but it is disingenuous to pretend that there is nothing to it. It takes an amount of strength to go against the prevailing attitude. I really dislike the "more progressive than thou" attitude.

[Heidi]

23. One may dislike it, but it's the truth.

We are more progressive than folks who use gender and sexual orientation and perceptions of them as a slur. No one's pretending that there's nothing to it, billy. I hate it that people feel they can't honestly compliment people of the same gender. That's not right.

[Oeditpus Rex]

33. I understand what billy's saying, Heidi

I guess it really is a "guy thing."

Yeah, I — or billy or GoPsUx or any of the other guys here — could start complimenting other guys in pic threads, or IRL, and that'd certainly be a positive step. But, from our standpoint, we'd have to be pretty selective in where we took those steps, because they might be received rather badly. Some guys would be uncomfortable and others might well be downright vengeful, and that's what stops us despite good intentions.

It's kind of like when Jackie Robinson trotted out to second base at Ebbetts Field in 1947. Was that a great thing? Yes. Did it lead to more black baseball players? Yes. Did fans and players immediately cast aside their prejudices? Hell, no.

[Heidi]

36. But DU is a safer and more tolerant community than

baseball parks, circa 1947. I understand billy's feelings, too, and am proud to call him my friend for life. He and I have disagreed before; I respect him immensely.

[Oeditpus Rex]

45. It is

And Jackie Robinson was also many times more the "pioneer" than anyone here, I'd wager. And he had to endure all kinds of vile shit — not in that first game, not even in that first season, but for three or four years.

[Heidi]

47. Exactly.

But if we're aspiring to be better version of ourselves, we're making progress. I've been such a wuss about taking risks with my art lately, that I watched the movie, "Ray," last night to remind me that it's important to take risks.

[billyskank]

37. What I meant was

You said this in response to Oedi: "I'd think the worst thing anyone could be, or be called, is a bully, or mean-spirited."

What you said is quite true. But Oedi was talking about kids. I remember being a kid. For most of us, the most important thing as a kid is to be well integrated in your social group. The worst thing for most kids is not being a bully, or being mean-spirited, but being unpopular. That's because of immaturity, but immaturity is not a bad quality for a child.

That's what I meant by the "more progressive than thou" attitude. Changing attitudes in society is the job of adults. It's our world, and we should fix it. Kids learn everything they know from grownups. Very few kids have the strength and maturity to be leaders, and it is unfair to demand it of them.

[Heidi]

40. I agree with every word of what you just wrote.

And part of creating a tolerant and safe world for kids is creating a safe and tolerant world for adults, who set the greatest example for children. Please know that I respect you immensely, my friend. :hug:

[NMMNG]

30. Bingo

I think that complimenting each other's looks is not a very masculine thing to do.


So if a guy compliments another guy on his looks he is perceived as "not masculine" or "effeminate"--essentially a stone's throw from calling him gay.

[billyskank]

39. Maybe, I don't know

But the answer is still that men need their attitudes towards masculinity loosened up.

[NMMNG]

48. Indeed

I think it would go a long way in reducing sexism, homophobia, interpersonal communication problems, psychological traumas, etc.

[billyskank]

49. Question. (Not specifically at you)

What do women expect from men? I know women are not a homogenous block with the same attitudes, and I know also that the women here may not be representative of society as a whole (your attitudes will be weighted towards the progressive end, of course). But still, bear with me.

For example, how many women think that it is okay for a man to cry? I know that there are some women out there who think it is not acceptable. If enough women think so, then few men will dare to display their emotions.

I found out a few months ago that a group of my godsisters who live in London were all wondering if I was gay. I am not. Why would they think that? I asked my best friend and godbrother about it, (who is gay incidentally) and he said that they had probably not known a guy like me before, whatever that means. If you construct an image of traditional masculinity, I agree I do not conform to it in many ways. But is that not prejudice on their part? I am not a "manly man," so therefore I might be gay? What's that all about?

[NMMNG]

50. Asking me probably won't be of any use

I'm lesbian so I don't actually have any "expectations" of men in the normal sense. I think it's perfectly acceptable for them to cry, to be affectionate towards each other, to be friends with women on a platonic basis, to not feel like they always have to be the leader in every situation and so on.

I am not a "manly man," so therefore I might be gay? What's that all about?


It all goes back to that ingrained expectation of masculinity. If you don't present yourself as a traditional masculine man, you are seen as effeminate--and probably gay. The way the fundies are harping on how evil homosexuality is I'm afraid it's only going to get worse.

[NMMNG]

31. Delete/dupe

Itchy post finger. :shrug:

[Guava Jelly]

8. Hell even though I mainly compliment the ladies

I have complimented the guys on occasion.
Straight or gay Hell I don't care.
To me it takes a lot to post a picture for some people.
And we are a good looking bunch.

[Oeditpus Rex]

18. Okay, but

I'd be willing to bet those occasional compliments were along the lines of, "Dude, that's a sharp suit" or "I like the beard" — not a straight-out "You look good."

I've done that, with friends and co-workers and a couple times here. Guy comes in wearing a suit or something, and I'd say something like "Dude, you be stylin'."

That's our buffer — a compliment without actually saying "You're attractive."

[Guava Jelly]

20. thats true

But I have also been complimented if not hit on by gay men here .
Even though I am straight and not into that I still find it flattering.

[Oeditpus Rex]

25. Yeah, me too

My ex and I were visiting a friend in San Francisco about 10 years ago. We were in the Castro, coming out of this great little café called Hot 'n' Hunky, and my escorts informed me that a coupla guys were checking me out. I was like, "Yeah? Well... cool!"

A compliment's a compliment, isn't it?

And it seems I've just answered my own question, but then I think, well, wait — somehow, those guys being gay makes it acceptable.

And I'm just confused all over again. :shrug:

[Heidi]

26. Â compliment is a compliment.

Right on, Oeid. Right on. :hug:

[Robeson]

19. Honestly, I'm more heteroerotic in preference, so I don't really look...

...at the guys posts that much. I'll try to check them out more in the future, so that I can whistle at their ass, too. ;-)

[Oeditpus Rex]

27. But hardly any guys post their asses

:cry:




Oops... I mean :rofl:




*spit*

[Guava Jelly]

28. I have posted my ass twice

Normally it just freaks people out
So i fight those urges :)

[Heidi]

29. Can I ask you a question, in the interest of "research"?

:hi:

[Guava Jelly]

32. sure

ask away

[Heidi]

35. It's more than one question, really, and

I'm asking you because you've been brave enough to post your hiney (and I know you to be a pretty tolerant guy).

1. If you posted a photo of yourself (or your butt), and a woman criticized you, you wouldn't assume anything about her sexual orientation, would you?

2. If you posted a photo of yourself (or your butt), and I complimented you on your photo, you wouldn't assume that I'm unfaithful to my husband, would you?

3. If you posted a photo of yourself (or your butt), and a male DUer complimented you, you wouldn't assume anything about his sexual orientation, would you?

My point is, DU is a safe and tolerant community. It's like Oeditpus Rex said: a compliment is a compliment.

Thank you for your patience, GoPsUx. :hug: :hug:

[Guava Jelly]

41. ok

1. It would hurt my feelings and ego but thats about it
2. Nope I would take it as a compliment.And read nothing more into it. (It's not like you are going to leave your hubby after seeing my ass)
3. Depends on what he said " hey dude nice ASS!!" I might think he was Gay but also I would say thanks man in return.
It's a crazy world and if anyone thinks enough of me to dish out a compliment I just don't see how that is Bad.
Now I did have a gay mod tell me that he was considering going straight after seeing my Ass..That sort of sucked :)

[Heidi]

42. I remember that.

That Mod was teasing you. :hug:

You have a good heart, sir.

[Guava Jelly]

43. thank you

and I'll refrain from posting my ass.
I guess because i used to be such a big guy that I sort of want to show off how i look now.
Believe it or not I am not very confident about myself in real life.
And when i get a crumb from someone It just feels so nice.
specially from the very pretty ladies of Du.

[Heidi]

46. You've every right to be proud of the work you've done.

You seem to me to be a great deal more confident (and deservedly so) than you were just four or five months ago. I'm biggo softy, I guess, but it makes me feel good when I see DUers improving their mental, spiritual and physical health. :yourock:

[Oeditpus Rex]

34. I'd post mine

But the only photo I have that shows it wouldn't pass DU muster. :blush:

[Heidi]

38. Oh. My.

:hug: You're just a darlin', Oedi. Truly. :hug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

44. Huh?

Wha'd I do? Wha'd I do? :shrug:

[ZombieNixon]

55. I've posted my ass once or twice.

'Course, it was Photoshopped with part of my face on it...:rofl:

[Joe Fields]

51. Because if we do, a giant can of beer will fall from the sky

and crush us.

[nosillies]

52. My hormonal theory

Testosterone tends to glue mouths shut when it would be nice to talk and makes mouths run too much when it would be nice to shut up.
:evilgrin:

[cc488is]

53. Cuz there are not that many gorgeous guys

but there are tons of gorgeous women! To me...anyway...

[NewJeffCT]

54. I will admit it if I see a guy that is attractive... but...

to be honest, I don't see what a lot of women see in some guys.

Like, I don't see why women used to go ga-ga over Richard Gere...Or Fabio, unless you just go for the body...or Brad Pitt. And, many famous people.

Heck, I've had several women tell me I look like Richard Gere, and I know it's supposed to be a compliment. But, I still don't get what women see in him.

But, I also think that women are socialized to comment on things like appearance - if a woman in the office gets a new hairstyle, you can be sure that nearly every women in the office will make a positive comment to the woman with the new 'do.

[rug]

56. You're one hung dude.

[NewWaveChick1981]

57. It's one of the differences between "male" culture and "female"

culture as it has evolved, at least in the US. Women can tell each other that they look beautiful/gorgeous, etc., can help each other try on clothes, and things like that without necessarily being attracted to each other. Men are culturally discouraged from looking "gay", which is why most men don't tell each other they look gorgeous and why a pat on the back is more acceptable than hugging. IMO that's terrible, but it's the whole homophobic attitude of our society.

[YankeyMCC]

58. It seems like an unreasonable expectation

when most of us barely notice the cloths we put on ourselves to expect us to notice exceptional attractiveness of other men. :)

PS: I usually have no problem saying a good looks good if asked but there's no way I can discern degrees of male beauty, I just don't have the capacity, I barely manage it with respect to women (to me almost all of them look good to some degree or another I don't have a very precise measure really).

Yeah, it's largely a gender/cultural thing but I'm not sure it's a really bad thing...we (and this a major generalization of course I know many men that don't fit this) just don't put priority on appearance of other males and don't even notice it one way or another.

[begin_within]

59. Girl, you are gorgeous!

[begin_within]

61. There's also the competitive thing. Men are always, unconsciously or not,

competing for available women. Well, straight men, anyway. Anything that gives the other guy an advantage is not a good idea. Complimenting the other straight man on his appearance will give him a booster shot of confidence and possibly give him a competitive edge in the hunt for available women. So that's another reason they won't say anything, even if they are thinking the guy does look good.

[GalleryGod]

62. Sorry..I Luv Her!

[hunter]

63. I got called "gay-faggot-homo" so much as a kid I stopped caring.

The best fight I got into in high school was when a school bully shoved me in the hallway saying "Get out of my way faggot," and I whispered to him "You want me!" and he beat the shit out of me in front of the guidance counselor and got himself expelled.

College was heaven compared to high school.

I don't happen to be gay, but Johny Depp is hot. I'd be a pirate again.



Elizabeth Swann: I'm here to find the man I love!

Jack Sparrow: I'm deeply flattered, lad, but my first and only love is the sea.