A Question to Musicians (or former ones): Ever had a 'Salieri experience'?

[htuttle]

Have you ever witnessed such a display of musical talent that you wanted to go home and throw your instrument in the dumpster? I once did.

Back in the early 80's, I played drums in a bar band. We did some of our own stuff, as we could compose it, but most of it was cover songs, 50 minutes to a set, 10 minutes per break from 10 pm to 1:30 am. Cash bar.

One weekend that we didn't have any jobs, we decided to go see Rush. I'd scored some 3rd row center tickets, so we hoped to get a good view of a band that was considered, technically-speaking, one of the best at the time.

We sat there, dumbstruck, throughout the show, as almost every member of the band played *SEVERAL INSTRUMENTS AT ONCE* . Effortlessly. Geddi played synth lines with his *feet* while he played bass and sung lead. Alex Lifeson played multi-necked guitars while playing opposing synth lines on his own foot-pedal keyboard, and Neil Peart, was, well, Neil Peart. All of it without apparently breaking a sweat.

Well, needless to say, we watched in awe. And afterwards, we nearly broke up the band. That night, we realized that we could NEVER be that good. While we hung together for a few years after that, I look back at that moment and see that it was the point where I realized I would not be a professional musician. I got into programming shortly thereafter, ended up pawning my drum kit, buying a computer, and the rest is my life since then.

In any case, I'd seen remarkable musicians before that. I attended a percussion workshop run by Lionel Hampton at one point -- hell, he used FOUR mallets. I'd been to a lot of live shows that had musicans better than I was. But that Rush show was just SO incredible, SO much better and more skillful than I'd even aspired to, that it pushed me to move 'music' from a 'profession' to a 'hobby'.

Anyone else been dispirited, rather than inspired, by awesome displays of talent?

[democracyindanger]

1. Yep.

In college I knew this guy named Andy. Nice guy. Would listen to me plunk around on the guitar. He asked me to show him some stuff, so I taught him some chords.

School broke for the winter, and I didn't see him for a couple of months. He said that his dad played a lot of guitar, and that he picked up some stuff from him over the break. He then picked up my guitar and played the first few bars of "Classical Gas."

I shit you not.

He was kind of searching for notes, so the rhythm wasn't perfect, but after a few weeks with his Dad, the sumbitch learned to fingerpick Classical-freakin'-Gas. Pure natural talent. Within a year, he was far beyond me. Not that I was that good, but I could hold my own in a bar band. Plus, it was like a whole bonding experience with his dad who was estranged from the family.

Jeezus.

[gmoney]

17. Been there, repeatedly...

I've done that with several friends, showing them the basic open chords, barre chords, explaining the magic of the I-IV-V, and every one of them can now play circles around me.

I've been in a couple bands, and I could never understand how anyone at my level could have musical "career ambitions" -- I've known guys far more talented, far younger, and with far more resources who never get anywhere. Even getting signed is no guarantee of success. I'd settle for being in a band good enough that people who AREN'T friends of band members will come to see us -- as long as we had fun playing.

I'm experiencing the same Salieri thing with photography, too. I do pretty well, but there are these people who do amazing work, seemingly without effort, who have no concerns about what they're doing. They just know it's going to be great, and it is. I think if I was better at relating to new people, I might have better success along those lines, but I'm not sure I'll ever have that inspired gift.

Here's a couple recent ones... competent, but not magical.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. My dear htuttle......

I have been there, though not to the extent that you have, since I am retired now....

I like to write and take pictures....

I have been praised for some of my efforts....

However, I have seen the work the pros do, and it is very discouraging...

They obviously have worked much harder than I ever will....

How do I deal with that?

Well, I do the best I can, and try to not get discouraged...

And some days, I just throw up my hands and walk away....muttering!

I don't have the discipline......:shrug:


Your post is most excellent, BTW......

[htuttle]

3. Sometimes, I think it's a matter of finding your niche...

...or 'your groove', as it were.

While I may have been a mediocre bar band drummer, I have, on occasion, excelled in the field of writing software. In fact, personally, I can feel some sort of connection between the rhythms I used to play (or want to play) on my drum kit and the rather more stark programming logic I now deal with day in and day out. The tempo, the counter rhythms -- somehow I still think that way when I'm laying in the often bog-standard programming patterns I use to accomplish tasks in the most efficient of all possible ways.

Maybe it's really just a matter of finding the right 'instrument'?

:)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. That does make sense to me!

Good thinking.....


:hi:

[Floogeldy]

5. You just weren't as hard working or as dedicated as Rush.

Few people are. I remember a quote from Jon Anderson of Yes, from the seventies: "You've got to be willing to work twelve hours on a piece of music and just throw it out because it doesn't work."

Rush, and Yes, worked twelve hours a day.

You didn't. ;)

[gmoney]

18. There's more than hard work though.

That's the Salieri thing... hard work and technical competence only get you so far. But that spark of magic or inspiration or divine grace or whatever seems either to be there, or it's not. That was Salieri's complaint... no matter how hard he worked, he could never match the effortless brilliance that Mozart was able to achieve. (At least as portrayed in "Amadeus" -- which is fiction, I know, but I think serves to illustrate an aspect of reality.)

[Floogeldy]

28. Yea.

I guess not every boy who picks up a guitar can be Hendrix. ;)

[Squeech]

6. Happens all the time

Just saw Dweezil Zappa's Tour de Frank, with Steve Vai on special guest stunt guitar. He does things I can't even begin to wrap my mind around, made me want to go home and smash up all my guitars. And some of it he makes look totally effortless, tossing off blistering licks casually like he was just standing around receiving transmissions from other planets.

Last month I saw Allan Holdsworth, another guitarist genetically engineered to shred. Last year I got a record by the late Brazilian guitarist Luis Bonfa. Same difference.

But I persist. (My band's playing tomorrow night, opening up for some Crafties.) Even though I'll never be in Geddy Lee's league (originally a guitar student, I generally play bass nowadays) I still have fun doing it, it's an interesting challenge to hold down the groove and maybe tweak the harmony a little between the drummer and the increasingly erratic guitarist :-)

And Floogeldy is right, and that occurred to me heavily while watching Vai: he has to practice eight hours a day to do that. Essentially he has to treat practicing like a day job, and not only would it strain my enthusiasm to have to do that *every day* but generally I have other obligations to attend to in my waking hours.

Ears have something to do with it too. I know most people don't hear music as acutely as I do, but then I know there are people who can penetrate harmonies and such way better than I can, and if they work at it they tend to become better musicians than I'll ever be.

[RetroLounge]

7. Yes

First time I heard SRV play little wing, I wanted to burn my Les Paul and cry, it was the most beautiful thing I ever heard...

RL

[XNASA]

8. Absolutely not.

I don't care for the music of bands like Rush, or guitar players such as Vai, or Satriani and the like. All flash, no substance...like watching a magic act.

Secondly, I can play just about anything my muse can dream up on either guitar or keyboards. Granted, my technique isn't all that great......but that's never stopped me. If anything, I struggle to play less notes....not more.

A few years ago, when I was playing out and used both guitar and keyboards onstage, I would use the headstock of my Tele to play keyboard notes while playing guitar simultaneously.....a la Jonny Greenwood. A neat trick.

I don't get dispirited by musicianship, however..I am in awe of really good songwriters and producers. The best example would be somebody like Eno, who has the magic touch in everything he does, yet doesn't even consider himself a musician.

[bbernardini]

9. Every time I see Mike Keneally (former Zappa and Vai guitarist)

While Mike is primarily a guitar player, he plays keys equally well, sometimes simultaneously. It's moments like that that make me want to give up being a keyboardist, as he plays keys with one hand while playing the guitar with the other as well as I play keys with two hands, if not better.

I've always liked Keneally better than Vai, anyway. While Vai may be more technically proficient, Keneally's got more soul. (I guess he must have been good enough technically to take Vai's "stunt guitarist" role in Zappa's 1988 band.)

[ProfessorGAC]

10. Sorry, No!

Oh, i've seen some monster players, but none that ever despirited me. Made me want to go try some new things, for sure and expand my own vocabulary, but i've never been bummed out by seeing anyone, no matter how good.

I had a couple jaw-dropping moments, when i saw King Crimson on the "Beat" tour and when i saw Sting's Blue Turtles Band. (Kirkland, Marsalis, Jones, Hakim, and Sting on guitar.) In both cases, the songs were different than the albums, and were more powerful and tighter. I was impressed. I was amazed. But, i was not discouraged.

I can play some. Sometimes you need to hear others that can just smoke, if just to get new ideas.
The Professor

[XNASA]

14. And he can do it all with.....

Pointy Guitars. ;)

[ProfessorGAC]

15. But, My Piano Isn't Pointy! Just a Big Box!

And i'm a piano player first, after all.

Although that would be cool to have a pointy piano!
The Professor

[BlueJazz]

11. As a former full time Jazz Musician (I still play part-time), I've heard..

...some awesome players but you know, like anything else, it's just a "little step..day by day" thing.
I mean, I've been floored by what someone else has played but after spending hours on the same
song/runs/chords I look back and think "Well, shit, That wasn't so hard"
You know..Think back on your Programming skills...I'm sure at first it seemed like a HUGE thing to
learn all the code and crap. (I work with computer stuff also) but now it's a piece of cake.
Stan Getz told me "aw..man..It's like putting a few bucks in the bank every day...after awhile you
have something to spend"

I think a lot of talented folks get discourage when they see "Hot Players" perform not realizing that
these same players played like YOU do/did a few years ago.

What seems insurmountable today is just Regular stuff after a few hundred hours of practice...

[bertha katzenengel]

12. Constantly. In fact, I haven't picked up my guitar since I went to see

Christine Lavin. She's not among the great guitarists. She's just a working singer. So she plays every day. She's great. In comparison, I suck.

Two guitars. Untouched. Very sad.

[Skittles]

20. aw come on bertha

I liken it to sports - just because we constantly see the whiz kids on the major leagues doesn't mean we cannot play sports ourselves

[bertha katzenengel]

21. good POV

my best friend will be in town tomorrow night, staying for a week. we've sung several duets. he's going to bug me to get it out, so it looks like i have something to force me to pick it back up.

:hi: Skittles

Li'l Skittles says hi, too :)

[Skittles]

27. yes, you get out there girl

we cannot all be the greatest at things but if we have fun doing it is worth it - yes INDEED! :hi:

[kiraboo]

13. There are t hose who, like Mozart, are born with the gift.

Then there are the rest of us. I try not to beat myself up about the fact that I must work to make the music beautiful. It's like being born physically beautiful. Sure everybody appreciates it, but what did you really do to make it happen? (just an example... I'm no beauty)

[tonkatoy57]

16. Classical Division Checking In

Two times I've had experiences like that, being so awed and freaked out that I had to wonder, "what in the heck is it that I'm trying to do"?

I was trained as a clarinetist and when I was an undergraduate I was selected to play in a masterclass for Harold Wright, who was at that time principal clarinet in the Boston Symphony. He was, for good reason, considered to be one of the best, if not best clarinetist in the world. He had amazing technical facility, as all major symphony orchestra players do. It is a profession where, at the very top,technical perfection is the starting point. Mr. Wright also was a superb musician and played with the most beautiful sound I've ever heard on the clarinet. I had heard him on countless recordings and with the BSO in concert but I really wasn't prepared for what he sounded like standing 2 feet from me. It was like warm honey being poured out of the bell of his clarinet. Long liquid phrases that were so perfect and musical that my attempts seemed pedestrian and uninspired in comparison. It was a very humbling experience.

After graduate school I was hired to play in the orchestra at the Grand Teton Music Festival one summer. The principal in the orchestra was my teacher in grad school, George Silfies, the principal in the St. Louis Symphony. We were performing the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique. The piece has a very prominent solo part written for Eb clarinet. If you're not familiar with this instrument it is to a regular clarinet what a piccolo is to the flute. It's pitched 4 steps higher than a soprano clarinet and has a very piercing sound. We didn't have an Eb clarinet at the festival so at the first reading of the piece George reached over, picked up the part, and sight read it on soprano clarinet. Perfectly. Not only was he transposing, at sight, up a fourth, he was playing at the very top of the clarinet range. Perfectly and perfectly in tune. I sat there with my mouth hanging open, not knowing what to say. When he completed the solo the conductor stopped the orchestra and the entire orchestra went nuts. It was an awe inspiring thing to see and hear.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

19. I've gotten screwed two ways--both in writing and in music.

In writing, it isn't so bad, because I know I can write, and write well. My thing is that some fine-off day I would like to be able to get some income off of my writing--maybe not be a full-time writer, but certainly get paid for my fantasies. So when I read Fitzgerald, Twain, any of that stuff, it's discouraging, but also somehow inspiring. "Hell, I suck compared to them--but it would be awesome to write like that!"

In music, I may be naturally talented, but at what I really love--piano--I have not yet had much formal training. So while watching other people dance circles around what I could do is a little discouraging, I have not yet gotten to the point where I have so much invested in music that displays like that break my heart. I haven't gotten to that "This is it--make it or break it" point. In any case, I have never imagined myself as a professional musician. It is only in the past year or two that my love for music has quadrupled. So music for me is still but a hobby.

:shrug:

[SteppingRazor]

22. I can get discouraged about writing too....

I make my living with it, but I just feel that most everything has been done before. When someone says "I'm gonna write the great American novel," all I do is roll my eyes and say, "Sorry, but Fitzgerald already wrote The Great Gatsby."

Still, whenever I come up with a neat metaphor or turn of phrase, such thoguhts are banished to the back of my mind.


As for music, I've played guitar for 16 years or so, but I never took it seriously, so I don't get upset when someone's better than me.

[mitchum]

23. If I didn't love my best friend, I would hate him...

he is a brilliant musician, and I'm just very good at fooling people :)

[anarch]

24. no...I'm so ham-fisted and technically inept that it doesn't faze me

to see people who can actually play their instruments.

It probably has something to do with the fact that I've been playing in bands for more than 15 years now, and probably last actually "practiced", outside of rehearsals, some time in 1988. The songwriting aspect gets to me sometimes, but it doesn't discourage me...just spurs me on to try to do more myself.

[johnnie]

25. Mainly in songwriting

As a musician I was never working to be good, I just wanted to be able to hold my own so as most of my friends were in their rooms at home practicing non-stop, I was out having a good time and figuring I will just fake everybody out. I do a damned good job at that now..LOL

I started writing songs because there was no way I was going to sit around and learn someone else's songs. As the years went by I started writing pretty good tunes and all my friends took notice. All the ones that learned exact solos of all the big songs and the perfect beats and so on realized that you can be the best player in the world, but if you don't have a good song, you sound like shit.

I didn't put much into my songwriting so I never went far with it, but I was told by a number of people that I am a good songwriter and blah blah blah. Then as soon as I start thinking I am pretty good, I hear something like "In My Life" and my head explodes and I am back to square one. :)

[jrandom421]

26. As someone who is technical rather than artistic

I spend most of my life so deeply envious of those who could create art, music, literature, and so on. My parents and siblings had all sorts of creative ability which they flaunted so much and ridiculed me for having so little, that I felt like I was crippled in some invisible and irreparable way. While I could appreciate creativity and art, there was no way I could even begin to come close to even drawing decent stick figures. It got so bad for me, that by the time I graduated from high school, I believed I had no talent at all, just enough intelligence to realize that I was going to have to outwork, outhustle and outlast everyone else, if I was going to have any kind of success.

Thank God for Popular Science and their ad for a Commodore VIC-20. I bought one, found an old cassette recorder and TV, and I was programming and computing that same day. The next year, I saved up all the money I could and bought a Commodore 64. I started programming for money, much to the puzzlement of my family, made enough to move out and buy a car. Haven't looked back since. And that is where I found my creative talent.