Are you male or female?

[sweetheart]

Are you a male or a female?

Is one overrepresented here?

[undergroundpanther]

1. there ain't a space for neither! or none of the above..

transpeople,bi gender not represented??! ..ummm why?

[sweetheart]

3. Whatever you "are"

I considered that, but even such persons have one they favour.

Even asexual persons have genitalia.

[undergroundpanther]

11. I don't favor

There are people that don't have a gender and don't want one.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bassic]

32. Why are you getting all wound up about this?

This is evendiently a light-hearted thread desing to do nothing but pass the time. Why is it that every time someone posts a thread that deals with anything remotely related to human differences (race, gender, you name it), he or she immediately gets flamed for being "ignorant" and "insensitive".

It is quite clear that the OP meant n insult to anyone.

[sweetheart]

37. not "do nothing to pass the time."

That is not quite accurate. It was a serious poll in GD to see if men
were more prevalent?. The poll was +5 men when i left it in GD last night.
like 45 -40, and it was confirming the suspicion i had, that a subtle
bias may indeed exist in GD towards testosterone.

Had i posted it in the lounge, it would have been a pass the time poll, as
it has become.. :-)

I'm impressed at how people can read between words to take offense at what is
not written... !

[Bassic]

40. So am I .

I feel that some people are just looking for a fight.

[UncleSepp]

44. Probably because I have had about six hours sleep in the last 48.

I lost my volume knob.

[Bassic]

45. Yeah, ok I can sympathize with that. nt

[Wetzelbill]

33. actually

when sweetheart used "whatever" she wasn't referring to UP, so she is grammatically correct on that. "Whatever" in this case is sexual orientation, not a person. "Whoever" (actually probably "whomever") is not applicable to a sexual orientation, only a person.

And, utilizing quotes can mean many different things, it isn't something that is limited. So while sweetheart's meaning may not have been clear, she could have been using them simply to accent the word, not to infer that it may mean something else. In that case, you assuming it had a different meaning would be a misinterpretation of how she meant to use the quotes.

Oh, I'm a writer, I know this stuff like it's second nature, because I have to know it. Your other points, I have no expertise to challenge you on, so I will not. I have no argument here, nor am I trying to cause one. Just be wary of taking somebody to task on grammar like that, because it is tricky stuff, and, moreover, if you are wrong about it, which you definitely were, that type of mistake can kill the rest of your argument. Best to stick with what you know. Obviously, this is a topic that means a lot to you, and you got angry about it. Fine, it happens and sweetheart has to respect your emotions, however don't let what you perceive as ignorance and condescension allow you to jump into something half-crocked. You trying to correct her grammar was extremely condescending and you were wrong about it too. Once you got past that you made some good points. However those are easy to overlook because of the way you started your argument. You shouldn't allow that anger to cloud your judgment and drown out the important stuff you have to say.

[UncleSepp]

38. Sweetheart's grammar wasn't incorrect, neither was I correcting it

Nothing in there was intended to correct Sweetheart's grammar, and I'm not really sure how you're getting grammar correction out of that post.

[Wetzelbill]

39. when you say this

>>Whatever" - UP is a whoever, not a whatever.
""Are"" - What's with the quotes? Usually, that indicates that the word in the quotes doesn't mean what it usually means, or that it is in doubt.<<


You are calling somebody out on there grammar. It's pretty cut and dried.

[UncleSepp]

42. No, it isn't.

What I was concerned with wasn't grammar, but meaning.

[Wetzelbill]

48. that is grammar

it is the study of classes of words and inflections and how they function and relate to each other in a sentence. Telling someone to use "Whoever" instead of "Whatever" is an example of the function of a word and how it relates to another word (in this case, UP) in the structure of a sentence. Utilizing the proper meaning is important in both the function and the relationship aspect of grammar. Like I said, it's cut and dried. You're trying to argue with an expert, I'm not trying to fight, I'm just pointing it out to you. You were wrong when you tried to correct sweetheart's grammar, I'm just letting you know it so you don't do it again, you can take it for what it is worth.

[UncleSepp]

51. I hear what you're saying and understand it...

I hear what you're saying and understand it, but I was posting about implications. That's not a matter of grammar. It's subtler than that. I don't know what you do for a living or what your background is, but if you say you're an expert, you're an expert. My language background is in translation, and I cut my teeth on translating poetry from Russian to English. In translation, there's a layer beyond the grammar, and that's the layer I was going after. It's what's between the lines.

[Wetzelbill]

53. fair enough

it's no big deal. :)

[sweetheart]

34. OMG!

:-) I love that!

Lets try this. When you're at the movies, and you have to pee,
which little room do you use, the one with the figurine with the
skirt on it, or the one without the skirt.

If you go in the wrong one, people might be upset and you might
be thrown out of the cinema and miss the rest of the film.

I realize this walks on that touchy area of skirts, and being in
scotland, boy have i heard enough about that to fill another 5 flames,
but i'd say you're having some good cheek there my friend.

Underground panther is my friend, and i am in no way taking any
shots at h.....

Barbie and Ken were asexual, i remember! But they didn't have to
pee at the cinema, as they arn't *real* people.

So my point about *are*, meant, that if you feel like a woman caged
in a mans body, or vice versa, then it was an invitation to say
what you "are".

[UncleSepp]

41. I can't exactly pee in the water fountain between the two, can I?

Since about a month ago, I use the men's. Men are less likely to care about a woman in the men's room than women are to care about a man in the ladies' room. At the moment, I could be thrown out of either one. I get "sir" and "ma'am" in about equal numbers these days, sometimes both from the same person. They're both "the wrong one".

It's interesting that you should bring up the bathroom issue as a way to make your point, as the simple act of using one is one of the most difficult parts about being a person of indeterminate gender. For some people, that difficult part lasts only during a transitional period, and for some, it lasts a lifetime. Being thrown out of a public place, publicly humiliated, threatened with arrest, or even assaulted for using one bathroom or the other is a daily fear for transgendered people and people of indeterminate gender: sadly, it's also a daily occurrence. I didn't stop being nervous about using women's bathrooms until I was 28 years old, after having been screeched at and threatened for being a boy in the women's room from about age 14 onward. I've been tossed out of the women's bathroom by security before at my own workplace, even after showing ID to the security with a female name and gender marker - that was pre-hormones, pre-everything, in women's jeans and a tee shirt and even with a pair of earrings in. That's part of what life is like for people who do not appear to fit into the figure with the skirt or the figure with the pants.

You invited UP to say what he "is", but that was after he already told you that one answer isn't enough for some people. Not everyone "is" male or female. That was his point, and also mine. This is not a matter of opinion or gut feeling. There exist people who do not identify with either male or female. There exist people who are not biologically either male or female. This is a fact.

You may not be intentionally taking potshots at UP, but what you're saying is dismissive, simplistic, and insulting whether you intend it to be or not. How much more dismissive can you get than denying a person's existence?

[sweetheart]

46. Its just a body

I do hear and accept your criticism, on behalf of UP. (who has not waged in with paws)
but a person is much more than their body, and i find people to be both feminine and masculine,
both male AND female, not for reproduction, but in terms of the more mystical meanings of
these things. So if we're gonna say that gender is something beyond the body, then i'm ok
with that, as long as you consider that to apply to ALL persons, not just ones with bodies
they are out of harmony with.

I'm a buddhist, and i believe in reincarnation. I've had many female and male lifetimes i
can remember. This lifetime's vehicle is no more "me" than my car. It is a fleshpuppet
that will die away, and all that i find sacred in life, as much as i've experienced it via
this body, is not of this body.

There is a general meme i work against on DU, it is the collapse in to small-me-me-me identity
politics... it is a republican meme, that one. It supplies lots of indignation, lots of
offense and tirades, but is not great hearted, it comes out of fear for defending our right
to exist, as you well point out. If we fall too far in to that meme, we divide ourselves,
as transgendered persons stick with themsleves, uncomfortable with Gay persons who suffer
different issues, and disabled persons who are suffereing differeit issues, and fat people,
and women, and drugs users, and veterans, and homeless people... on and on. Each group
has its own collapsed identity politics, where they can howl indignation that nobody understands
and how their very existance is denied... like israel, except without all the bullys and deathcopters.

Yet we are all the same. We are all human beings who have the right to be diverse and still
united with our humanity. We are not the fearful little bodies we were born in to, we are greater,
more noble, in reaching out and living for the greater whole amongst us, the greater good,
and the love of life and humankind, that we can step beyond this mortal failing towards
what we truly are in our best moments, just love... Fear of survival is as old as the
DNA, but love and the truth, is that we forebrained animals have a choice to live beyond
fear; to step beyond the mindstates of animals to be profound.

That is the invitation of a body, the conundrum of transcending it before it transcends you.

[UncleSepp]

49. Thanks, sweetheart - we've got a few things in common

Gorgeous post. Here's what I believe - not a rebuttal, as we're not arguing here, but an offering in return for the offering you gave.

Gender and sex are of the body, and the body includes the brain. I believe gender to be of the brain, and sex to be of the body. Most of the time, the gender of the brain matches the sex of the body, and both are clearly defined. Sometimes, that doesn't happen.

I also believe in reincarnation. For me, it isn't part of a particular worldview. It's that I have memories of being other people at other times in other places, and reincarnation seems to me to be the most straightforward explanation for the experience. For the last seven years, I have run a mailing list for persons who believe or suspect they have had a lifetime during a specific time period.

I remember lives in which I was comfortable in a male body and lives in which I was comfortable in a female body. The incarnated self has a gender by virtue of having a body and a brain. The greater self, which exists with or without a body, does not have a gender. It also doesn't have a race or a nationality. It doesn't have a height. It can't have a disease or walk with a limp. It doesn't have a political point of view. It is, and only is. It may even be the same as that which says I AM, and it may be all that is.

All in all, my feelings on it are similar to yours:

> This lifetime's vehicle is no more "me" than my car. It is a fleshpuppet
> that will die away, and all that i find sacred in life, as much as i've experienced it via
> this body, is not of this body.

The incarnated me is the hand in the puppet, and the greater I is what drives the hand and also what receives what the hand experiences. In my life, knowing that there can be such a difference between the puppet and the hand has helped open my mind to considering that the body is not the self.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UncleSepp]

47. Reposting... with the volume turned down...

"Whatever" - UP is a whoever, not a whatever.
""Are"" - What's with the quotes? Usually, that indicates that the word in the quotes doesn't mean what it usually means, or that it is in doubt. Are you somehow more qualified to define UP's identity than he is?
"Such persons" - UP is one of those "such persons", as am I. From how you've written, apparently you aren't. So where exactly do you get off defining what "such persons" think to UP, or to anyone, for that matter?
"... have one they favour" - Thoroughly untrue. Not all people identify strongly with either male or female gender. Moreover, not all people can be biologically classified as either male or female. Some intersexed people are born with bodies that appear neither male nor female, or which combine male and female visible and internal characteristics. Some people are born who are neither XX nor XY, and of those, some display both male and female characteristics. Some people have female phenotypes and male genotypes. This leads into...

"Even asexual people have genitalia". - As I stated above, not all people are born with genitalia which are clearly male or female.

Subpoint: "... have genitalia" - External genitalia are not the sum of gender identity, and never have been. In Victorian times, the presence or absence of testes was considered the definition of maleness, regardless of what the person also had or didn't have. At other times, the onset of menstruation were considered to define femaleness in a person of otherwise ambiguous gender.

"... asexual ..." An asexual person is a person who does not have sex, not a person who does not have a defined gender of either male or female, so what does this have to do with anything?

[UncleSepp]

15. Gimme a high five paw, Panther!

You rock! :yourock:

[LiberalVoice]

2. I tied it at 17 :)

[NMDemDist2]

4. kick n/t

[Control-Z]

5. even at 20

[madokie]

6. a DUer is a DUer no matter the gender, we are both brothers and sisters

mad assed okie dude here

[sweetheart]

7. indeed we are

Life experience gives us different views that are difficult to transcend,
even with the best intentions.

If we're a random population sample, it should be about 52% female.

[Captain Hilts]

8. I voted. nt

[5X]

10. So did I. n/t

[Deja Q]

9. I am what the Lord made me.

And I ain't takin' it off for anything. :rofl:

[Deja Q]

28. An unused male.

[Clarkie1]

12. I believe women overall lean Democratic and men lean Republican.

I am speaking in very general, broad terms of course. I believe the majority of registered Demcrats are female, and the majority of registered Republicans are male (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this). It will be interesting to see if DU reflects the general population in this way. My guess is the majority of those on FreeRepublic are male. This will be an interesting poll to watch.

It's an interesting stereotypical political dymanic, with the Democratic Party in sociological terms traditionally playing the role of the "mommy" party and the Republicans playing the role of the "daddy" party. At least, that's the theory.

I'm a Democratic male, by the way.

Edit: It just occured to me that a potential complication of this poll is that it is still true, I believe, that men use the internet more than women. So we have that dynamic playing against the political dynamic...hmmm.

[bloom]

14. it also changes the poll to move it into the lounge

It could be interesting to poll the lounge and GD and see if there is a difference.

[sweetheart]

35. When i last saw it in GD, it was +5 males

I wonder if men like the rough and tumble argument more?

It was my pre-poll hypothesis, and now that its in the lounge, oh well.

I can't believe the gender of the arguer's is not poltiical, as if gender
is something that does not affect our politics from top to bottom.

[ConsAreLiars]

13. I was looking for a "yes" or "no." Such a narrow view of things. (nt)

(edit typo)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

16. To quote a famous old song:

"I'm a girl, and by me that's only great..."

I don't remember the rest, nor do I remember which musical it came out of...

But I can hear it in my mind's ear, and I love it!

AND, I am female........ :hi:

[Misunderestimator]

27. "I Enjoy Being a Girl" from Flower Drum Song... Rodgers and Hammerstein

:hi:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

54. Thanks!

How could I have forgotten that one?

:hi:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

17. There are more than two genders.

Not everyone fits into male or female.

[Placebo]

19. Hogwash!

:P

[UncleSepp]

21. Hog wash! Workin at the hog wash yeah!

B-)

Whew. For a moment I took your post seriously. Aiee!

[leftofthedial]

18. yes

[Starbucks Anarchist]

22. Male.

[xchrom]

23. kick

[NewWaveChick1981]

24. Broke the tie! I'm female.

It's at 80 male, 81 female now. :hi:

[In_The_Wind]

25. 100% Female!

:evilgrin:

[Wetzelbill]

26. I am so masculine I probably should be counted as two men!!!!

:)

[ScreamingMeemie]

29. Girl Power!!!

:bounce: :rofl:

[Callalily]

30. Female!

And and uppity one at that!

[donheld]

31. After a total examination I figured I'm still

Male.

[Aiptasia]

36. I was still male when I got out of the shower this morning

At least I have a convenient place to hang a towel.

[bertha katzenengel]

50. What about hermaphrodites?

:evilgrin:

[RedCappedBandit]

52. Woah!

101 to 101! Perfect!
..Then I went and ruined it.