Tell me what this freeper says is not true

[Zuni]

I have studied WWII, including Pearl Harbor extensively. I know there was huge mix ups, bad communications and intelligence failures. The evidence i have seen indicates that the White House, nor Military Intel knew where the Japanese Fleet was and believed it was moving towards the Phillipines and Malaya.
Also, I am a big FDR fan, and he along with Abe Lincoln, is my favorite American President.

Is there new info out? I saw this on FR--posted by a Freeper. Tell me it is poppycock, and if there is 'new' info, please let me know where to find it so I can judge it myself.

From Free Republic, posted today--
Does anyone see the extreme irony in H.R. Clinton appearing on major networks on Dec. 7, 2003. 62 years ago Today, at 12:01 PM EST, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. The newest cable releases from the NSA and excellent scholarly works point to FDR, his chosen military officer clique, and the help of his cabinet, including HAROLD ICKES, Sec. of the Interior, in preventing clear warnings to prevent the attack, and drive us to war-- that is, to drive Germany to declare war on us, by making them think we were weak (we were, of course) MS. Clintoon's pal, Harold Ickes, Jr., former Sec. of Labor under Billy Boy and son of FDR's traitorous cabinet member, is now with Wesley Clark's campaign--- can you say STALKING HORSE (whore?)? Can you see the similarity in the cynical use of a "military" politico in trying to steal a nomination. The demorat convention will be an open convention and she will be "crowned". Then we will all have to join in the fight to defeat her. A "date that will live in infamy"-FDR spoke the truth- it was his infamy. On this day my father was aboard a submarine picket supporting the Enterprise and Saratoga, at sea, sent there to prevent their destruction in the coming attack. Hillary's claptrap should be interesting to parse-somebody watch because I cannot- she disgusts me. Only of interest is Newt Gingrich on the same NBC show

[Cheswick2.0]

1. that is nothing but an insane clinton hater rant

and what if it were true? What if Hilary did become our candidate? I'd be okay with that.
Now there will be plenty of people who tell you FDR did let the attack happen, but I do not beleive it and there is no proof. In any case we needed to be in WW2 for the sake of the world and the Jewish people. I wish we had truly understood earlier what was going on in germany.
These people are projecting the BFEE's sicko aggenda on history.

[librechik]

2. here's a short intro to the new info

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id1488/pg1/

but by all means decide for yourself--just google FDR Pearl Harbor Secret and all kinds of options come up.

[Zuni]

10. The problem with the internet

is that all kinds of morons can put up whatever info they want, so I might be right into some tin foil hat stuff

[Racenut20]

3. Wouldn't glorify the idiot with an answer.

[northzax]

4. oh if only

FDR hadn't sent the Enterprise and Saratoga out to sea, we wouldn't have to listen to this nut-job. you'd think he'd be grateful.

Look, the evidence that FDR had good intelligence of Pearl Harbor is roughly equivalent to the evidence that Bush knew the details of the attacks of September 11. Sure, in hindsight, we can see that the various parties may not have done their due diligence and there were certainly intelligence failures, and policy failures, but I don't think the evidence supports the notion that either President had detailed knowledge of the attacks and allowed them to continue.

[Zuni]

8. That is my opinion

and I that is what I generally believe. In hindsight, simple mistakes look devious from suspicious eyes.

[asjr]

5. freepers

The problem with freepers is that they will take an ounce and immediately say it is a ton. If they are so concerned with "sins of the fathers" let them understand the "sins of the grandfathers of GW Bush.

[pistoff democrat]

6. I've heard these conspiracy theories

before, from both the left as well as the right.

Try this article on for size: it's 3 pages, but when you click on the link below, you will be on page 3, which is what you want. (If it's of interest, please read all 3 pages. The entire site is interesting.)

:shrug:

http://history1900s.about.com/library/prm/blwarned3.htm

(google up lots more as well...)


:loveya:

[Zuni]

9. good site

this jibes what I have read before.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. Sounds about right.

Several books and articles I've seen over the years pretty much came to the conclusion that the attack was planned with the usual secrecy you would expect from any military operation. No surprise there.

Roosevelt was no fool, and he was regularly asking about any intelligence of Japanese intentions beyond their Asian empire, admitting that he suspected the worst. All he got, however, were a bunch of dispatches from our Tokyo embassy saying the Emperor was really a nice guy and would never think of going to war with us. Because Japanese war plans were not exactly broadcast, that was all he was going to get.

There was some discussion about whether even these dispatches were tampered with in State before Roosevelt, or higher officials in State, saw them, but that's unproven so far.

There was a large isolationist contingent, a large interventionist contingent, we were still in the Depression, and it's easy to look at "evidence" in retrospect and come up with all sorts of theories that fit our preconceived notions.

My personal preconceived notion is that I prefer to believe Roosevelt would not simply allow the attack. If they genuinely had knowledge an attack was imminent, adequately defending Pearl Harbor would still have produced the outrage that got us into the war-- with the advantage of far fewer casualties and serious damage to the Japanese fleet.

[Zuni]

13. That is my opinion

If they caught the Japanese fleet attacking, there would still be an attack. They could claim, in honesty that it was a sneak attack but just be better prepared.

[ComerPerro]

7. I would think this FReeper

If he were so concerned with WWII history, would be interested to study the Bush Family's financing of the Germans while we were at war with them.

Oh well.

[rock]

12. OK, it's not true. Now let me read what he wrote.

OK, it's still not true. One single point. FDR may have suspected a Japanese sneak attack was imminent, but to say that he knew it, vastly overstates the case. In fact, I'm inclined to think of it as a parallel to bushsucks* knew there were WMD in Iraq.

[underpants]

15. I think some things have changed in the last 62 years also

Communications
Intelligence gathering and analysis


Just to name two itsy bitsy tiny ones.

[geniph]

14. He WAS expecting an attack, but not on Pearl

he was expecting the attack to come in the Phillippines. Everyone was. When he was first told of the attack on Pearl, he initially corrected the speaker, "You mean Manila, right?"

Pearl Harbor as the target was a surprise to everyone. Manila was prepared for it; Pearl was not.

[Zuni]

17. Actually Manila was even less prepared

It is true that the US intelligence felt the Japanese fleet was moving south towards the Phillipines or Malaya (which it also was). The day after Pearl, the Japanese managed to attack and destroy airplanes all over Luzon which were sitting right out on the runways.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

20. Yeah, because DougOut Doug was another moron fighting

the last war. Not to mention he was too busy hiding underground making plans to notice something like this.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

16. Utter BS... First off, the NSA did not come into being unitl 1947

And submarines did not routinely shadow CV's until the 60's. They certainly did not do such a thing in 1941, a sub of those days could not keep up with a carrier.
The rest of this screed is just blather about family connections, ignoring Poppy and * and all the others in power now, not to mention Grandpa Bush who was an ardent Nazi sympathizer.

There was knowledge of a Japanese attack. The Navy had postulated that Pearl Harbor could be attacked that way, and most likely would be IJN's first act. But, the battleship admirals were still not in tune with air power and it's impact, and would not be until after Midway.

[Zuni]

18. They did studies on it

and after the Brits did the Italian fleet by carrier borne attack at taranto, they should have seen the writing on the wall.

The problem is they did not believe that the IJN could sneak up on them from 3,000 miles away

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

21. The carrier commanders believed it, and wrote about it

extensively. It was just Adm King who was not convienced, and if you could not court the favor of the King, you were adrift on your own. The studies still exist, I think they are on the Navy's website.

[sexybomber]

19. eek!

I can't even really comprehend that shit. Best I can say is, the guy's off his rocker. He's ranting about some sort of Clinton Conspiracy to nominate Hillary for President next year.

dumb Freeper f**k.

[neebob]

22. What are you referring to?

FDR knowing about Pearl Harbor? I've heard that, too. I believe there was a thread about it on GD earlier today. I didn't read it, but the title was something like "Pearl Harbor was a LIHOP."

Otherwise, I'm unable to discern the freep job's point. As far as I can tell, he's blaming HRC for Pearl Harbor.