I included this letter with my rent check

[NightTrain]

To Webster Management:

What were you thinking when you allowed a couple with a small child to move into the apartment above mine? Do you have no kids of your own? Were you unaware that the average toddler possesses a great deal of pent-up energy, which he often will expend by constantly running back and forth across the floor, thus creating a cacophony of intolerable noise for the tenant beneath him?

Ever since those “people” moved in above me, I have found it unnecessary to set my alarm clock. On an almost daily basis, they rouse me out of my slumber. If it isn’t the child running the 100-yard dash across my ceiling, it’s his parents screaming and throwing things at each other.

Now, I might have considered it a helpful service to have human alarm clocks above me. However, these people always wake me up an hour or two before I actually need to get out of bed for the day. As a result, I often have no choice but to leave for work exhausted.

In the past month alone, I have found it necessary to call the police on those “people” on four separate occasions. I cannot, however, figure out what the police may have said or done when they arrived upstairs as the situation has not improved one iota.

Suffice it to say, I deeply resent this constant violation of my privacy, especially since it began at around the same time you raised my rent. I can only assume that you are in the process of doing something about this intolerable situation. And if not, why not?

Thank you for your time.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

1. I remember when my parents and I moved into a house

from our apartment I still heard the footsteps from our noisy neighbor above us for at least a month - even as we were in our house ! Thats how loud she was ! It was just a woman and her 13 year old son - no small kids ...

I have sympathy for you . Nice letter .

[dennis4868]

2. TO BE HONEST....

how could your Landlord not allow a couple with a child to rent an apartment in their building? It would violate some very strict federal housing discrimination laws.....

[eyesroll]

3. The landlord can't discriminate against families with children

So on that angle, you're out of luck.

In and of itself, it isn't illegal for people to yell and throw things at each other, but all that noise may be a violation of the lease (and potential domestic violence, which is why I assume you're calling the police). Better to go in from that angle and leave the kids out of it.

I feel for you, though. We once lived above someone who thought "Candle in the Wind '97" was appropriate blast-at-top-volume-with-high-bass music.

[LuLu550]

4. Well put...

Apartment living is hard. I am thankful to own my home.

[omshanti]

5. Unfortunately, he can't ask the couple to move out.

Unless they've destroyed property or not paid rent or violated the lease in some other way, that couple has as much right to be there as you.
I know this sucks.... I used to live downstairs from a couple with an infant. I am such a light sleeper that I woke up whenever the baby cried at 3 a.m., whenever anyone upstairs got up to go to the bathroom, etc etc. I would even wake up if someone turned over and the bedsprings creaked. Doesn't sound as bad as your situation, but it still sucked.
I think it's just a reflection of how shoddy construction is on some of these apartment complexes.

What I did, was buy the loudest little fan I could find to generate white noise and drown out some of it. I also started sleeping with earplugs in. It didn't drown out everything, but it helped tremendously. Good luck to you!

[Droopy]

6. There's nothing you can do about the kid

My sister has a toddler and she has a bunch of energy. You just have to let them run and play.

As for the parents of the child arguing and throwing things at each other, calling the cops and telling your landlord is about all you can do. Maybe you could recommend a marriage counselor.

I don't think you should have put the word 'people' in quotes in your letter. It sounds like you are suggesting that they are not people and the landlord may get the impression that you are just a snob.

[Drifter]

7. Sorry ...

I'll bet the farm, your letter hit the trash can after the first paragraph.

While I feel your pain (as this minus the adult fighting happens to me also, 'cept it is my own family).

Unfortunately, the only action that can be taken is yours. Move.

Cheers
Drifter

8. if the noise bothers you

enough that you can't sleep, you must not really be tired!!!
That's the attitude I used to adopt when I lived with a band.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Tthat's not true for everyone

When it comes to sleep, people are wired differently. When I was in college, I knew a girl who routinely slept through her clock radio coming on full blast and people pounding on her door.

Most of us require at least a moderately quiet environment.

Otherwise, dictators wouldn't be able to use sleep deprivation as a form of torture.

Back during my teaching years, I made the mistake of moving into an apartment that was within stereo blasting distance of two fraternities. On occasion, the music blasted so loudly that it literally seemed to fill the world, and I couldn't tell which house it was coming from. I could have been on the verge of collapse, and I still couldn't have slept in that kind of environment.

What happens to most people when their sleeping environment is too noisy is that they get frustrated and enraged.

I find the "Well, just ignore the noise" attitude to be kind of adolescent.

15. It was a joke!

:crazy:

[LynneSin]

9. Be greatful it's just children

My first apartment - I could hear them having sex in the apartment above me. And she was a screamer - I think she was faking it though

Personally, I know that apartment buildings cannot discriminate against those with children, but it would be nice if they did consider keeping families in one building and childless in another.

I'm quite fortunate that my building has no children except a 14-year old grandchild that visits on a regular basis. Because there are several buildings to our complex, the landlord does make an effort to keep the 2 groups apart if feasible.

What I would recommend is a fan (or one of those sound machines - but fans are so much cheaper). A fan run on high speed does wonders for drowning out other noises (and circulating air)

[Jivenwail]

10. Apartment life

The last apartment that my husband and I rented was in San Diego when we were stationed there. In an upscale area, quite nice. We were on the bottom floor, however. First night in - first night - we were still arranging furniture when the upstairs neighbor saw fit to come down and tell us we were making too much noise! We had the stereo on at a reasonable level, but not to her. And, as the months passed, things got progressively worse.

She complained about everything - from the shower we rain the morning getting dressed for work, to the sliding glass door opening to let the dog out. On Thanksgiving that year, we had some of my husband's single shipmates over for the day and we were, of course, watching the games. Around dark, she came banging on the door and told us we were making too much noise - at 6:00 PM!! My husband let her have it, after tolerating her constant complaining for months. To complain on Thanksgiving was just too much. She even had her son come down one Saturday morning around noon to say our TV was too loud! This was the same woman who chased down a gargabe truck that came through at 7:00 AM!!!

The final straw came at 5:00 AM on a workday when she came down, banged on the door, and told us we were making too much noise getting ready for work! I wouldn't open the door because I was still in a bath towel and she screamed at me! After that, we just went about our regular lives and didn't change a thing. She kept complaining to the landlord, but nothing ever came of it and we tolerated it for an entire year, until we moved into base housing. But that was the very last time that we ever rented an apartment.

There was and probably never will be, any way to settle these kinds of complaints. Apartments are not homes. Noise comes through, no matter what you do. It can't be helped. You are living side-by-side, up and below, and people will live how they live, I'm sorry to say.

I do wish you good luck, however.

[TXlib]

17. I would have dealt with that woman differently

After it became clear she was just harrassing me, I would have done everything in my power to make her miserable, and stay just under the threshold of violating my lease or the law.

[JM]

11. A totally related story

We live in a house, BUT...

my oldest son has one, and only volume: EXTREMELY LOUD!

In the summer, we leave the windows open since we don't have air conditioning. Last summer our next door neighbor ran up to us upon our return from vacation begging us to lether know whenever we were leaving town. Apparently she didn't realize we were gone and arrived at work three hours late three days in a row since she didn't have our son to wake her up.

At a party a few weeks later, both neighbors said they couldn't wait until our kids were older so they could pay them to shovel the walk. I promptly replied they were eligible for free sidewalk shovelling for at least three years as payback for the early morning wakeup calls.

Work with your neighbors, not against them. You may just get something out of the deal.

Later,
JM

[bleedingheart]

16. I didn't know kids came in any other volume level

I should have named mine ...Loud and Louder.

[liberalhistorian]

41. Well, that's certainly better

than Dumb and Dumber, lol!

[cmf]

13. Sorry, but they cannot discriminate.

Get some earplugs or start looking for a new, top-floor apartment.

[Skittles]

18. excuse me

people can be evicted for behaviour that chrnoically distubs other tenants

[Beaker]

23. not necessarily so.

just because one tenant is "chronically disturbed" by another tenants behaviour, a landlord isn't going to go thru the hassles of an eviction, unless the behaviour is completely illegal.
People are entitled to live their lives, and some people are a little noisier than others. your best option is to move.

[cmf]

24. The kid is just being a kid

If he wants to focus on the parents making noise by screaming and throwing things at each other, then he has a case. But a 2-year-old acting like a 2-year-old is not something I think people should be evicted over. Otherwise families with small children who couldn't afford houses would have nowhere to live.

[elfwitch]

35. I have to agree

I have a two year old and I live in an apartment. The only way to keep a toddler from being a toddler would be to keep them pinned up or tied down. You can scold them for being too noisy, but it is their basic nature to be rowdy. I try to keep my little man calm and silent footed at night, but the best you can do most of the time is just scold as you go.

Some parents aren't as respectful of other people as I try to be. But those kinds of parents let their kids run wild everywhere. I haven't seen a movie at a theater in two years because I don't want to bug other people in the movie when my kid acts crazy.

[Skittles]

44. H E L L O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

did you READ it? THE COPS ARE CALLED REPEATEDLY. This is more than just normal "KID STUFF".

[Bunny]

14. I think you have a valid and actionable complaint.

Hows that for lawyer talk from a non-lawyer? :)

Actually, you may not be able to do anything about the kid, but I believe that the landlord is responsible for providing you with a suitable living environment. A man's home is his castle, right?

Seriously, your upstairs neighbors are disturbing the peace and creating an environment for you that is nearly uninhabitable. At least that would be the approach I would take. You paid your money, you are entitled to reasonable living conditions, including noise limitations. If the landlord won't help these people change, consult neighborhood legal services.

We've got a few lawyers on this board, they would know way more about this than I do, and I'm sure they'll be glad to put in their two cents!

[toddzilla]

19. one option..

move within the building maybe? i don't know how large of a building or if there is more than one, but many complexes will move people around within an apartment area. you may have to foot the bill for painting and cleaning or something, but it might be your only chance other than vacating completely.

[Beaker]

20. wrong-o.

there's no legal case to be made here.

[Bunny]

21. Well, if you're a lawyer then I'll bow to your greater knowledge.

But if you're not, then I stand by my opinion.

[Beaker]

25. and people wonder why the court system is all backed up...

some people feel that going to court is the best and only way to solve all of life's little inconvienences. Nothing in the original post sounds at all actionable. as far as the landlord providing a "suitable living environment"- as long as the landlord is upholding his end of the lease, and there aren't any dangerous or health-threatening conditions being caused by the landlords negligence, that's all the landlord is responsible for.

[Bunny]

26. you still haven't indicated if you are a lawyer or not,

so I'm not changing my opinion.

[Beaker]

27. you don't have to be a lawyer to recognize there's no case there...

you just need to have a modicum of common sense.
(BTW- does being a paralegal count in your "opinion"?)

[Bunny]

30. Well, I'm nothing in the legal field, not even a "paralegal",

but even I was able to google and find that I am, in fact, right! Try it yourself and see!

[Beaker]

32. what states statutes were you looking at?

I didn't see anything that said what state the original poster resides in, and statutes vary GREATLY from place to place.

but if you "googled it", well...then you must be right...:eyes:

just what this country needs- more people that are willing toi sue at the drop of a hat(If the hat is dropped in the upstairs apartment at "unreasonable hours", that is...sheesh)

[YNGW]

37. I'm not a lawyer.

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

[Bunny]

29. Okay I just did a quick Google, and I am right.

This can be actionable, as a general rule in landlord/tenant relationships. The landlord IS required to provide habitable living space, and that includes noise limitations. Local ordinances may vary, but this principle is generally true.

Since it doesn't seem likely that Night Train will have any luck talking to his neighbors (hell, the cops can't get them to shut up!), his landlord is obligated to deal with the situation. I am not referring to the noisy kid, I am referring to the screaming and fighting going on all night long. That IS unreasonable, and Night Train does not have to just accept it. His landlord can evict them for repeatedly making too much noise at unreasonable hours.

It would be too bad if it had to go to court, but you can be damn sure that's what I'd do, if push came to shove.

[Beaker]

31. "I am referring to the screaming and fighting going on all night long"

I missed that line in the original post...could you tell me where it says that?

"...His landlord can evict them for repeatedly making too much noise at unreasonable hours."

"unreasonable hours"?? you sure read a lot more into his post than he put into it...

If the cops have been there 4 times, and nothing has changed, I'm willing to bet that the cops are getting more fed up with the person constantly making the calls.
People are allowed to live their lives, and some people are nosier than others...things would have to get EXTREMELY loud between two people before "noise statutes" would kick in- It's not like there's always noisy parties with the stereo blaring. Cops don't arrest people for raising their voices in their own home.

[Bunny]

33. Well you have obviously missed his prior posts where he has discussed

this situation in great detail. I apologize - I should not have assumed that you had the same information as I did. Yes - it does involve screaming and fighting at unreasonable hours. And yes, it can be actionable, if you would do a google you would see that and it would take about 60 seconds. But since you are a paralegal, I will leave you with your own "opinions", such as they are. Good day!

[Beaker]

34. again- what states statutes were you researching?

or is there a federal law regarding noisy neighbors?

[Shakespeare]

42. Not true - depends on the local statutes.

I'm currently in a similar situation with MY upstairs neighbors, and thank GOD the West Hollywood compliance code has strict noise and nuisance provisions. One can file complaints (and I have, and have also called the police--AND I have the complete support of my landlord, I recently learned), and the city investigates. If they decide the complaint is legitimate, they issue a citation (first one includes a fine of $125). The amount of the fine increases with each subsequent citation issued, and after a certain number of citations, the landlord can then evict.

Night train--check your local codes and see what avenues you have in that regard. It will likely be a long, drawn-out process, but you DO have the right NOT to be disturbed on an ongoing basis.

[curse10]

48. no cause of action

see below :-)

and see Soules v. U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, HUD v. Wilkowski and the Fair Housing Act.

[YNGW]

22. Letter

Dear NightTrain,

Thanks for your payment. Forwarded your letter to the people upstairs. Have fun.

Sincerely,

Your Landlord

B-)

[monkeyboy]

28. People who lived under us had this humoungous stereo

that was hooked up to their TV. We would be sitting there, and suddenly the bass would kick in from some suspensful movie they were listening to. HmmmmmmMMMMMMMMMM....HmmmmmMMMMMMMM. and the whole floor would vibrate. I went down and asked the guy to turn it down, and he looked at me like I was crazy. He said "We're just watching a movie". A few days later, HmmmmMMMMM...HmmmmMMMMMM". So we started jumping up and down on the floor. The guy comes flying up the stairs, bangs on the door, I answer, telling him "please turn it down". He says "The Woofer on my system goes all the way up to 10, and it's just on 4". My response was "What a coincidence. My stomping goes all the way up to 10, and what you just heard was a 4". He turned it down and we had no trouble after that.

[SiobhanClancy]

36. Two toddlers just moved into the apartment above me...

The place has hardwood floors,no carpets. Sometimes they race around for hours,making so much noise that my kitchen light is shaking. It's really almost intolerable at times,so I can understand what you're going through. My roommate keeps going up to complain,and it will quiet down for a bit. I don't know the answer...kids will be kids,but on the other hand people are naturally going to be annoyed. I didn't want her to go up to complain,because all it will do is annoy and alienate the neighbors and won't solve the problem. Kids have energy and need to express it. The worst part about it is that the kids are sometimes running around at 11 or 12 at night,at which time kids that age should be in bed,IMHO. I really think the only solution is to move,for you AND me...or else just put up with it.

[NightTrain]

50. Funny you should mention that

<<The worst part about it is that the kids are sometimes running around at 11 or 12 at night,at which time kids that age should be in bed,IMHO.>>

I have the same problem with my neighbors. Except in my case, I've heard their toddler running around up there as late as 2:00 in the morning! And I had the same reaction you did: Why the hell is that kid up so late?

One more reason for me to believe that poor child was born to horrible parents. I shudder to think of how screwed-up an adult he's going to be!

Well, if nothing else, my job doesn't start until 11:00 a.m., so I don't usually bed down for the night much before 1:00 or 2:00. Now if I worked regular daytime hours, I'd be even more pissed off about this situation than I already am!

[NightTrain]

38. If the kid were the only problem, I could live with it

But the kid's not the only problem. There's also his parents' screaming and throwing things at each other, as well as making other assorted loud noises whose origins I can only guess at.

Plus, as I stated the other day, the cops have an arrest warrant out on the female half of the couple upstairs. What it's for, and whether or not they've used it yet, I don't know.

Plus, the building manager and the superintendent were aware of what was going on upstairs even before I first complained. As for the cops, they too know what's going on and have told both me and the super to call them whenever there's a problem with those "people."

It's quite easy to be magnanimous with other people's lives. If this situation were affecting you directly, however, I imagine your attitude wouldn't be quite so sympathetic toward those zoo animals upstairs from me. The only one of them for whom I have any sympathy at all is that poor little boy, for having parents that horrible.

[amandae]

40. Poor kid ...

Hopefully (and I truly hate to say this) he'll be removed and sent to live with more stable family members.

If you keep calling the cops whenever things get bad, you'll not only potentially save the child should his parents get too violent, but you'll also create a situation where the landlord has a valid reason to evict the family. Too many complaints and they will be obligated, or at least able, to either refuse to renew the lease when it is up or evict.

Again, good luck to you on this one ... it's tough, but at least your landlord and the police are aware of the problem (and don't just consider you a problem tenant for complaining so much) so there's an opportunity for it to be resolved.

:hi:

[amandae]

39. We used to be those people ...

But the difference is that we were there before the people who moved in under us. Our unit (on the second floor) had vaulted ceilings, so we were charged more to live on the top floor. Our landlord didn't hear complaints from the people under us, just us because everytime my 3 year old and 1 year old so much as walked across the room they were banging on the ceiling. Our landlord's attitude was that if they didn't want to have people above them they should have paid the extra like we did and rented an upstairs apartment. Besides, we were already there more than a year when they moved in, if they didn't want to be below a family with children, they shouldn't have picked that unit. It wasn't a surprise. There had been one other family that lived in the downstairs unit before the obnoxious people and they NEVER complained at all (or banged on the ceiling) about our children.

We've since moved. We're having problems with our new landlords (they don't do anything ... want to pass off all responsibility to everyone else besides themselves) and in paying our rent yesterday I wrote "extortion" instead of "rent" in the memo section. Probably won't hear anything from them, and they already know how we feel about them, but I feel less angry (this month) about having to pay them an exorbitant amount of money for living in a place they don't take care of.

Good luck with your situtation ... since you were already living there, I think your landlord should have been more considerate when placing a family in the unit above yours.

:hi:

[NightTrain]

43. Yeah, but I'm guessing your situation was a lot different

For example, is it safe to assume that you and your husband did not regularly have violent arguments? :-)

[amandae]

47. No, you're right ...

those didn't start until after we moved to where we are now ;)

[Deja Q]

45. You'd make a great sitcom writer... but seriously:

With luck the landlord will move the family to a different unit, but you might have to live with them. Or move out. :cry: It's sad that a compromise can't be reached...

On the other hand, the apartment industry is in shit shape because everybody's buying houses. The place I live in has 79 units, 30 of which are empty. Competing apartment buildings will likely have great rental rates in order to draw in residents.

You might want to mention the landlord of that fact, after verifying competing apartmnts can be had for less (which is possible).

[curse10]

46. You have no cause of action

Most states don't allow landlords to discriminate against people with children.

And, it's not a violation of privacy-- it's actually classified as a nuissance, kinda.

[NightTrain]

49. A direct quote from my lease:

"Improper or unnecessary noises or actions, unreasonably disturbing or molesting any other tenant or interfering with his rights, comfort and convenience are not allowed."

Perhaps it's just me, but it seems that one may imply from the above paragraph that having regular screaming matches, and allowing their kid to run around upstairs as late as two o'clock in the morning, might just be a lease violation.

Oh, and have I previously mentioned that not all of their fights occur within the confines of their unit? On two separate occasions that I'm aware of, they argued while the man was in the apartment and the woman was in the parking lot below, thus exposing their antics to approximately half of the building.

Direct quote from the woman's mouth as she stood beneath my living- room window that Sunday afternoon: "I have to do everything in this fuckin' relationship, you sorry son of a bitch!"

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think I fucking well do have a cause of action!