Bald Japanese Samurai

[Radical Activist]

I watched Akira Kurosawa's classic film, The Seven Samurai recently. I wasn't a big fan. The characters I found interesting received little screen time and were underdeveloped. The crazy impostor samurai character was annoying and a weak comic relief that took up way too much of the film. Its billed as a morality tale but its full of characters who are only looking out for themselves. After all the hype, I was disappointed.

Anyway, during the film I realized that there wasn't a single male character with a full head of hair. What's up with that? Do most Japanese men go bald early? Did the director have something against men with hair. Every single male character in the film over age 20 was partially bald. :wtf:

[LostinVA]

1. Because that's a Samurai haircut...

[Radical Activist]

2. But even the villagers were all bald.

Weird.

[Benfea]

3. It was the style to shave the top of your head even if you weren't bald

Dunno what that was all about, but that's how it was.

And you're an uncultured boob for dissing Kurosawa. Go back to your Pauly Shore movies, heathen!

[Radical Activist]

4. That would explain it.

Very odd style. Thanks for the answer!

I'm reserving judgment on Kurosawa until I see a couple more of his movies, but so far I'm not impressed. Poor character development and very bad comic relief in this one. Maybe he built his reputation on other films. A couple fight scenes in the rain were well done, but I'm not usually that impressed by action sequences.

[democracyindanger]

5. I still can't tell if you're crackin' wise

but "Seven Samurai" is widely acknowledged as one of the greatest films ever made. In fact, I just watched a documentary about Kurosawa with directors like Coppola, Bertolucci and Woo paying homage.

Geez, next thing you'll say is, "Michael Jordan was okay, but he wasn't great." :wtf:

[Radical Activist]

6. It did not live up to the hype in my mind.

What was so great about it? The crazy samurai character annoyed the hell out of me and he probably had the most screen time. We learn very little about any of the seven samurai. The Samurai characters I found the most interesting had the fewest lines. I've seen Samurai films that were much better and more involved morality plays.
What is supposed to make this such a great film other than that everyone says it is? I have my own opinion.

[democracyindanger]

7. What samurai films?

Seriously. Provide some context.

[Radical Activist]

8. You'll probably hate this

But I'd take Zatoichi over Seven Samurai hands down. I'm getting Roshamon next so maybe I'll like it better. :shrug:

[djeseru]

10. I love Zatoichi films.

I get a lot more out of those than I did Seven Samurai. I did like other Kurosawa movies though.

[democracyindanger]

11. I assume

you're talking about the latest version of Zatoichi, and not the 60's serialized films. If that's what you're looking for in a samurai flick, you're going to hate Rashomon. You might like Kagemusha. Yojimbo and Sanjuro are probably what you're really looking for--that's where Eastwood's spaghetti westerns came from.

But Seven Samurai, overrated? Wow. You'd better not let BigMcLargeHuge know about this thread.

[Radical Activist]

12. Not the most recent...

I really like the 1989 one Shintaro Katsu did himself and some of the originals from the 60's-70's. I heard the newest one isn't so good.

[martymar64]

29. The Beat Takeshi Zatoichi is more sinister

I'm about 5 movies into the whole series but I noticed that the new one lacks much of the humor of the Shintaro Katsu films. Plus all the CG blood is way too obvious.
As for Seven Samurai, the characters are all interesting. The Mifune character is deeper than just being a buffoon, especially when he goes into his rant about the treachery of the farmers. I found that scene to be very powerful. They draw the parallel between him and the child rescued out of the burning mill, and although he holds the farmers in contempt, he gives his life for them in the end.I love that film, but in terms of Kurosawa, I like Hidden Fortress better.

[Benfea]

15. "Ran" is generally considered better than "Roshamon"

…and both are in a very similar vein.

[momophile]

9. I too was disappointed nt

[Benfea]

14. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, of course,...

…but your opinion happens to be counter to the vast majority of hoitey-toitey movie critics, most of the big name Hollywood directors, most of the average movie-afficionados on the street, and heck, even actors.

A very young Clint Eastwood once watched Yojimbo in a theater. Afterwards, he remarked "That would make a great western, but no one would have the balls to make it." Later in his career, he starred in just such a movie (although I can't think of the title off the top of my head).

Although Kurosawa was a huge influence on American film, oddly enough he wasn't very popular in his own country. People dismissed his movies because they were "too western." Japanese are silly about this sort of thing, but their thinking was if westerners like his film, then that means they can understand it, which means Kurosawa's films can't possibly be "Japanese enough." They didn't start appreciating him until after he died.

Of course, the accusation of being "too western" may be right on. Kurosawa himself admitted that his primary influences were Japanese theater (especially kabuki and noh), American westerns, and Shakespeare. Some of his movies were even direct translations of Shakespeare plays into a feudal Japanese setting (e.g. Ran is based on King Lear).

[Radical Activist]

25. Yes, everyone says its but wonderful but notice that

no one in this thread has told me why they personally enjoyed the film. Just how wonderful and significant its supposed to be accorindg to everyone who is anyone. That tells me something.

[Benfea]

40. The action is great, for starters.

And I was truly moved by Toshiro Mifune's speech about selfish farmers and upper class people who barely notice them. I loved the way Kurosawa built tension in the build up to battle, and no one does battle scenes quite like Kurosawa. For an action movie, its pacing is perfection, and really the only part that made me cringe was the young lovers (but then, I tend to react that way to on-screen romances more often than not).

[martymar64]

30. Fist Full of Dollars

is the Spaghetti Western version of Yojimbo.
Star Wars is the remake of Hidden Fortress.
Magnificent Seven - Seven Samurai

Filmmakers love Kurosawa so much, they just gotta copy him!!!

[martymar64]

31. Plus Throne of Blood = Macbeth

n/t

[Starbucks Anarchist]

24. I disagree with your assessment about Seven Samurai.

But as far as Kurosawa's other films, I'd try "Ikiru" if you want a totally different tone. It's very long and slow-moving, but it's a very haunting story.

The main character is played by Takashi Shimura, who also played the leader in Seven Samurai.

[Taverner]

38. "Ran", "Rashamon", "Dreams" ...all of these are good

And I'm not a big fan of asian cinema!

[oregonjen]

13. Actually, Japanese men don't usually lose their hair

My husband is Japanese and is losing his hair (damn genes) and when he goes back to Japan on business, his co-workers remark on his hair loss. In Japan, they boldly remark on the state of one's looks, and they have no mercy. After I had my baby, I was often told how fat I was. Made me feel soooo good. : )

[Benfea]

21. Who told you that lie?

My Japanese grandfather could've been a stunt double for Patrick Stewart, if you catch my drift.

[seemunkee]

16. Try Twilight Samurai

Excellent movie, not much fighting in it but lots of character development. I have Throne of Blood out from netflix but haven't seen it yet.
I got to say Seven Samurai is a great movie

[EstimatedProphet]

17. The Samurai would shave the tops of their heads

so that battle helmets would fit better. So I was told by my aikido sensei.

[kwassa]

18. "The Seven Samurai" is one of the greatest films ever made

It is a major morality tale, it is about self-centered people who come to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

The haircuts are ritualized samurai cuts. The samaurai are a specific warrior class, far above the peasants they guarded in this film, who were quite socially beneath them. The parallel in Western history would be knights, without a Lord to be in service to, and who had no reason for existence. Another theme of the film is about the need for humanity in a time of chaos. The leaderless samurai come together to save people that have no one to defend them against the barbarous bandits.

There is a huge social commentary about classes in this film that you may have missed. Toshiro Mifune plays the comic peasant who pretends to be a samurai, which is actually quite dangerous to do, as it violates the social codes, and he really doesn't have the necessary skills to carry it off. For all his foolishness, he is quite courageous.

It is a great tale, I could go on and on about it.

[Benfea]

22. Those weren't samurai, those were ronin

The title is mistranslated.

Yeah, ronin are above peasants, but not that high.

[kwassa]

23. The original title is "The Magnificent Seven"

and ronin are a type of samaurai.

[Benfea]

36. That was the title of the Western based on Kurosawa's movie

The original title translates to "The Seven Ronin," but I'm sure some dimwitted American movie executive decided that Americans wouldn't understand what a ronin is.

[LostinVA]

28. Ronin WERE samurai

Samurais who no longer had a feudal lord.

[Benfea]

35. Ronin are in a different class from samurai precisely because of the lack

…of a master, and they are decidedly beneath even the lowest samurai on the pecking order.

[oneighty]

43. Ronin

1. Masterless Samurai
2. Unemployed person
3. High school graduate who has not yet passed a college entrance exam.

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[democracyindanger]

44. 4. Robert DeNiro vehicle

[oneighty]

45. Ah so!

shittakaburi.

Hahahaha

Yottsu chi chi

[democracyindanger]

46. wari wari

ah...who am i kidding? my nihongo sucks. ;)

[oneighty]

47. Mine too!

But I have a Japanese English/English Japanese dictionary with which I cheat a lot.

JitterbugPerfume presented that book to me.

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[Radical Activist]

26. Who was moral in the movie?

Who was acting out of altruism? Sure, the Ronin defended the village. Yet, they complained about the low pay and afterwords expressed regret at having done so. It voids their claim to nobility in their actions. The farmers are also shown to be crafty manipulators in the end. The film has no heroes which are truly good. I can accept that in a movie with more depth, but I didn't find that here.

I also felt the film never gave a valid explanation for why they suddenly accepted the samurai pretender, who I found incredibly irritating and distracting.
The movie may have been groundbreaking for its time but I found it lacking.

[kwassa]

32. They were all acting out of altruism, as well as other motives.

They had no obligation to defend the village, which was socially beneath them. Samurai owe their allegiance to a feudal lord, yet in this era of civil war they found themselves without such an allegiance, probably due to the death of the lord. They were like men without a home, roaming the countryside. They certainly didn't do it for the money.

All characters had altruistic aspects; none was a total hero. After all, several sacrificed their lives for the villagers. This is what real human beings are like, as none of us are perfect saints, and at time are altruistic, and at times selfish.

The samurai pretender was accepted because they needed the manpower. The group was not in a position to reject anyone and successfully defend the village. (By the way, John Belushi based his SNL comic samurai impersonation on this character played by the great Japanese actor Toshiro Mifune.)

Feel free to find it lacking. In my opinion, it is one of the best films I have ever seen

[necso]

19. Well,

everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.

It is, however, generally better to have a well-informed one.

Just a few points:

1) An appreciation of Japanese culture is most helpful when viewing Kurosawa films, particularly the less transcultural ones.

2) The "comic relief" character is a classic figure in Japan. -- For an even more exaggerated one, view the minor Kurosawa classic "The Men Who Tread on the Tiger's Tail".

3) What you call under-developed characterizations (in different words) is to my mind one of many hints that these are not really seven individuals, but rather different facets of the character of one man (Oishi Kuranosuke, of 47 Ronin fame). And whether you accept this premise or not, these seven characters essentially define elements of character, and don't have to be completely expressed characters themselves.

("Rashomon" views "reality" from different perspectives -- those of different characters; while "The Seven Samurai" views character from different perspectives (those of different characters) -- and conflicts of character are played out across characters, not within a single one... a subtle device. -- And this is something of an oversimplification, since the characters are explored to different depths, and this is driven both by how much exploration this element of character warrants (due to its complexity, inherent contradictions, etc) -- and by the need to develop the plot, appeal to an audience, etc.)

4) Particularly in the earlier Kurosawa films (like what is perhaps Kurosawa's best, "Ikiru"), one must be able to separate out the Japanese elements to see that part of the "message" which is transcultural. A good example of this is the funerary scene in "Ikiru", which is very Japanese: getting drunk, emotional -- and (being able to and) saying things that otherwise would be unthinkable.

But subtract out the more cultural-specific elements and what you have is a very transcultural message -- men promising to change their ways in some momentary passion (or given some powerful message, or sterling life-example) -- and then quickly reverting to their old ways.

Similarly, in "The Seven Samurai", there are numerous transcultural messages (although many are of a military nature), such as: using cunning to defeat an enemy; the necessity of taking out the enemies' "guns"; making best use of one's circumstances and resources; doing the unexpected to disconcert one's enemy and to take advantage of their surprise; concerning oneself with the morale of the "troops" and trying to improve it; holding to one's code in the face of adversity and death; finding meaning in life even when one's way of life is vanishing (adapting, yet remaining true to oneself); etc, etc.

...

Perhaps you need a study guide.

Personally, I just watched "The Seven Samurai" again, and I was surprised at what I had missed previously. Moreover, doing the final battle scene in the pouring rain is simply amazing, particularly considering the risks that this entailed.

Kurosawa is a master, but a broad understanding of culture (especially Japanese culture) is most helpful to appreciate his films.

[Radical Activist]

27. I felt the end

where the samurai express regret and the farmers are shown as manipulative hucksters undermined the moral themes of the film.

Not enjoying an hour or so of military maneuvers is simply a personal preference. The "action" sequences had a couple nice moments but I generally find that tiresome in any movie.

If the comic relief character is a classic character in Japanese film, that may be why I felt the character seemed forced and out of place. Even when that character did eventually have an important point to make later in the film I felt the point was compromised by what a ridiculous one-dimensional character he was.

You mention some interesting themes and ideas found in the film but I felt they were all given a glossary treatment instead of a more thorough examination of character, plot and themes which I normally enjoy in a film.

[kwassa]

33. I don't understand your point of view

"I felt the end where the samurai express regret and the farmers are shown as manipulative hucksters undermined the moral themes of the film."

Why? To me it makes it more realistic. The moral universe is not simple and one-dimensional, where people are clearly saints or villains. The universe is more complex than that, with people being pulled many different directions. The basic theme is unrewarded heroism and honor. The were living for an ideal, their honor as samurai, and were not rewarded for it. Each samurai character represented something different.
Another theme is the ultimate emptiness of the warriors life, lived without families or children.

You also clearly are not a fan of action films, so this would not be your genre to enjoy.

I liked the character you disliked, and did not think him one-dimensional at all. He clearly was conflicted and driven.

The acting style is of its era, and that style is larger that the currently more naturalistic style that has taken over the world, this being a more theatrical approach.

[Radical Activist]

34. honor?

The first samurai they recruited turned them down until a bystander guilt-tripped him into it by pointing out that they were feeding the samurai rice while eating millet for themselves. The youngest Samurai later becomes motivated to help when he tastes how bad millet is. Yet, near the end of the movie we find the farmers were only pretending to be so poor. Am I supposed to be happy that the Samurai were tricked into helping a village of sly cowards?

The film also failed to show how several samurai were convinced to join, leaving their motives in question. The youngest wanted to gain experience (nothing heroic there) another seemed broke and desperate. Perhaps the Samurai who first went on his own to retrieve one of the guns was acting for noble reasons. I found his character to be interesting and mysterious, but he had very few lines, leaving me disappointed.

[kwassa]

37. Bushido is the samurai code of honor, the way of the warrior

http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/bushido/bsamurai.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido

This is what I am referring to.

[genie_weenie]

41. Samurai also called themselve Bushi

after the code of Bushido.

Man it sure sucks that the root of Bushido is now tainted...

[Radical Activist]

39. Maybe had I known of the device

of having seven people represent different sides of the same person I would have enjoyed it more. Instead I found myself constantly frustrated as the most trite elements of the story were highlighted (like the "romance" with the young Samurai and the antics of the crazy peasant samurai) and the more interesting characters were brushed aside as the film progressed. Also, why did there need to be two comic relief samurai? The first one was killed quickly and had almost no lines after his first scene. He seemed like a throw-away character.

[necso]

42. To adequately

describe what I see in the movie would take too many words to be practical.

However, the Seven also represent elements of the Samurai character and (ideal) code (this to a lesser extent, as there are some undesirable and unideal elements in some of the characters -- although these are more concentrated in the Mifune character.) And one can see a logic in who survives and who doesn't -- and one can see this as a metaphor for what happens to the Samurai class over time.

(And even the Mifune character rises to the Samurai ideal in his death (note that he's buried equally with the by-birth Samurai), taking a mortal wound -- but then with a terrible (and terrifying) display of will*, rising to strike down the bandit captain (the enemy leader) with his last breath. A death any Samurai -- or Ronin -- would be honored by.)

Moreover, the issue of regret (as you phrase it) is a much broader one. For the selfless act (the selfless in act, if not entirely in motives) will often benefit, or be taken advantage of by, the selfish. -- And the regrets embodied in this movie extend also to the "death" (diminishment) of the Samurai class (and ideal) itself.

As for plot development, characterization, etc, this is to some degree how you look at it. For example, the scene where the (eventual) leader gets his head shaved (Samurai could be somewhat fussy about matters of appearance and form) and rescues the child, speaks volumes to someone who is familiar with the Samurai code and (their actual) behavior. This is an unconventional man, a man of cunning mind, a skilled warrior, a natural leader -- a leader of those who can come to recognize his leadership-by-example (a leadership responsibility, BTW, that he is not over-eager to take on). (And this exceptional man is the principal driving force behind the Seven doing something that was largely unthinkable for even Ronin to do -- risk their lives for nothing more than being fed -- with no chance of any more substantial reward, or even of recognition... And I just love how he rubs his head from time to time)

And, if you have the "eyes" for it, there are numerous little beauties in the movie, like the scene where the master-swordsman returns from his personal foray against the enemy. He comes back from this brave act, quietly hands over the rifle that he has captured, says "two" (so that the leader can update his count of enemy dead) -- and goes off to rest for the coming battle (that is, he acts in a modest, selfless and unassuming manner). And when the young Samurai fawns over him as some exemplar of what it means to be a Samurai, he responds rather gruffly... But when the young man moves off, the master-swordsman smiles to himself... and only for himself. (A public display of such pleasure in being so honored would be unseemly, and it would go against his personal code -- and perhaps even call his motives into question... And perhaps the incident also recalls to mind how he was himself as a young man.)

However, in addition to needing considerable cultural understanding to fully appreciate the movie, it is also necessary to see what isn't there as well as what is -- and to see what runs against the expected flow. (For example, the true Ronin more or less accepting the masquerading one. For while in the pre-Tokugawa-Shogunate days, demonstrating loyalty, courage and skill on the battlefield could result in advancement, even for the lowly peasant spearman, brazenly pushing oneself forward or "putting on airs" would pretty much always be seen as being un-Samurai-like.)

As for the plot generally, there are several threads going on, along with different levels of metaphor, making up in depth what it might lack in immediacy. And if the viewer has the eyes for it, I can think of no better parable for (and study of) what it means to take up the warrior's mask -- and to fight in a superb manner. As one more small example, the peasants turn to a great military mind to lead them (advertently or not) -- and follow his orders pretty faithfully -- and they prevail, although only to revert immediately to their old ways.

...

will*: Courage, discipline and self-control. (And normally including patience, but here the time-frame is so short that this isn't really called for -- the heat of passion would suffice.)

[oneighty]

20. I saw that film in Japan

when it first came out. My girl friend Kazuko took me to an obscure movie house (no way it could be called a theater)The movie of course was in Japanese with no English subtitle. I did not have a good grasp of the language so really did not understand the movie.

What I remember as being remarkable was the tears in my Kazuko's eyes as well as the eyes of many of the movie goers. I was the only American in the audience.

The story must have had great emotional meaning to the Japanese.

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