So you call yourselves open-minded Liberals?

[lildreamer316]

I have been meaning to post this for a long time and I will try to be as clear as possible.
I know I am young compared to many of you; and very unworldly. I know that as much music as I have been exposed to; there is that much and more out there that I have never heard. I know that what I am going to talk about will be perceived as coming from a space of commercialized music education. That tends to happen when you work in bigger nightclubs of the type I "grew up" in. My husband is not quite the same;although younger than me he has lived and worked over a large portion of the country--so has been exposed to more diversity than me. I am always learning about a new genre of music and trying to get the feel of it. I will honestly say the only kind of music I am at the moment turned off to is commercial rap and most commercial hip-hop. Alot of drum and base and acid tech does not really do it for me either; but I have listened.I am always open to listening to underground rap. With that out of the way; here goes.

Many of the posts I have seen on here disappoint me. I get a sense of music elitism; of snobbishness. I initially got this feeling whenever anyone DARES to broach the subject of even semi-commercially successful COUNTRY music. You know; it looks suspiciously like redneck-bashing when it comes to that subject here. Why is that a problem; you say? Because; LIBERALS; if you want to make a connection to the blue collar worker; maybe you SHOULDN'T put down his MUSIC. It is one of the only ways he/she has to express themselves; to find relaxation and release. So what if it makes money? Does that make it inherently BAD? Maybe it touches a chord in many that they cannot express otherwise? Do you want to succeed in getting through to the "typical Bush voter" who is voting against their own self-interest? Do you want to motivate the working class? THEN STOP PUTTING DOWN THEIR MUSICAL EXPRESSION!! Jeez. Try LISTENING to some of it without ASSUMPTIONS. You may be surprised. Where is your openness and accepting nature? That's what I thought this board was mostly about. There are gems in there; I promise. How can you put down the music that grew out of hard working immigrants from England; Scotland; Ireland; Africa; Germany? Folk and Bluegrass are the roots; as I am sure that you know.

I am so sorry I was not around for the 60's (at least not in this body). Sorry that I was a baby in the 70's. Strangely enough; when I was in high school in the late 80's/early 90's; it was "cool" to know your classic rock intimately; the "pop" music was not the rage where I was. But; I knew and loved that too. Was in my church choir for ages; learned the value and beauty of vocal expression. Parents were huge Bing Crosby; Carpenters; Platters; and Peter Paul and Mary Fans. Musicals were always on at the house. I don't know everything; and am learning daily. I certainly don't profess to know.

My husband came into my life 5 years ago; and brought a whole new appreciation for electronic music to me. I found it spiritually uplifting and progressive. It is funny--THIS should be the "music" of progression for the new century; yet many progressives and liberals that I know look down their nose at it and scoff. It is a whole new world of sounds and musicality that has more soul; if you are willing to look for it; than ever before. I have found myself moved to tears without one word being sung--as have many who listen to the quieter side of the industry (termed here for your convenience) "New Age". It gives me positive reinforcement that reaches across state; city and country boundaries and lets me know that the people in Greece and Germany and Detroit feel the same way I do when I hear it--hopeful. and PEACEFUL.

Sorry; y'all; I'm gonna call you on this. OPEN YOUR MINDS. I am willing to learn from you; and have; as to the loads of less commercialized music that I have not been exposed to. I watch many threads discussing such and go to my other pc; grab a few that have been mentioned; and listen. I have found a few I liked; and a few I didn't. But at least I TRIED. Have you? Maybe it is time you went back to some of the "commercial" artists and check. WHy are you holding them to an impossible standard? They are human too; and maybe they are being successful to get certain messages out that would have not been heard otherwise. There are many reasons they are successful; many quite irritating; some not. Of course there are artists who have NO talent that are millionaires and are promoted at the cost of much more talented people. Surprise surprise. Old hat. But some of them are also good. Gee. Imagine that.For goodness sake; don't hate an artist because they are successful. Dislike them because they truly have no talent; or that really isn't your cup of tea; no matter how much you tried.

Yes, it IS a political thing. If you don't have an open mind about a man's music; how can you get into his mind about why he/she voted for the imperialist neo-cons? It is one and the same. Turning you nose up at country because many "rednecks" voted for it is just what they think you would do as a "liburl"; and they are not surprised. Then you wonder why she won't listen to you when you show them all the evidence that she voted herself into abject poverty. Why are YOU surprised?

Donning the flame suit now.
Age btw: 32.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

1. Excellent post!!

[qnr]

2. Elitism? No, I just don't like Country. I worked as a bartender in a

Nevada casino, and was forced to listen to it my whole shift, for years on end. I gave it a chance, I just don't like it. It has nothing to do with elitism, any more than my dislike of melons has anything to do with elitism.

[Floogeldy]

3. Can you sum it up in just a couple of sentences or examples?

Let's cut to the chase.

:shrug:

[politicat]

4. Grew up with it. I just don't like it.

I don't like the musical conventions that go into it. I can appreciate the poetry of the lyrics, but I don't like the tunes and I don't like the repetitiveness. (I say the same thing for pop top 40, too.)

I like classical and EBM and folk. It's a preference, not a political thing.

[lildreamer316]

41. No argument.

If it's not your cup of tea; then it's not. I object to people using it to classify another group so as to look down on them; mostly because of the way they voted. If we are going to reach the people they are lumping together here; we need to be open to what moves them....even if we don't initially like it.

[Arugula Latte]

142. I grew up w/ it too -- my father was a C&W DJ (although he preferred

classical music). Although I give big props to Willie, Waylon, Johnny C, and a few other artists, and I like bluegrass, mostly the country I heard left me feeling depressed and nauseous, and it still does. I dont' know why. I just have a visceral negative reaction to most of it.

[xmas74]

5. I don't put down country because I'm a snob.

I put down new country because a lot of it really stinks. I hear it all day long at work and I can't stand the crap that they are trying to pass off. Most of it doesn't even sound like country-it sounds more like bubblegum twang.
I was more than happy to hear the station at work today play A Boy Named Sue but then it quickly switched to Kenny Chesney and that chick from American Idol(what's her name. I'm sick of tired of her singing that song that goes Jesus take the wheel and whatever other crap she's singing about). And you don't hear alt-country on those stations either. I would be quite happy w/ some Steve Earle or Son Volt. And, all the country stations in my area play news reports from Fox News (another reason to drive me nuts).
BTW- I'm 31 and I live in an area that listens predominately to country. The younger kids at work chastise me for my views on country while the older adults who have always listened to country agree with me about the style and what has happened to it. They agree that what is played on the air is no longer country.

[lildreamer316]

16. Then you

are not exibiting the behavior that I am speaking of. There seem to be ppl who put it all down simply because it is country; know what I mean?

[xmas74]

21. I know exactly what you mean.

Some do not want to listen-some just want to mock because country is associated w/ the working man, the poor and the "country folk".
I just hate new country. Some old country had great storytelling and deserves to be given a second chance-even if it is only to be read as lyrics on a piece of paper.

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. It's not political - pop country, like pop rock, is just shit.

That's the nature of simplistic, uncreative, inartful shit meant to pander to the lowest, most base ignorant "tastes" of the American illiterati.

[lildreamer316]

10. You and I have had

this discussion before; Rabrrrrrr....All respect. Was not calling you an snob ;)

[jobycom]

34. Yeah, but it's more fun than the elitist specialist crap that only the

"artist" and few people who pretend to understand it like. There's a lot of both types of crap out there.

[Rabrrrrrr]

37. Yes, there is crap in both genres. But the difference is the pop stuff

is intentionally shit, because it needs to pander in order to "sell".

The art music that ends up shit is sometimes shit because the composer is an idiot, but often it's shit because the composer is trying something new, experimenting, and taking risks.

And I don't find pop music, of any genre, to be "fun" at all. I find it to be unlistenable and illiterate excrement.

Music that challenges me, that forces me to pay attention - that's fun.

[jobycom]

42. It's not intentionally shit, it's intentionally derivative

because it is mimicking whatever sold last week, combined with some marketing ploys predicted to be popular this week. Sometimes that's fun enough for me. Depends on my mood.

A lot of "art" music (we aren't talking about the good stuff, obviously) is just as derivative, in reverse. Trying something different just because it is different isn't challenging, fun, original, experimental, risky, or anything noble. It's just as derivative, and often even worse crap. Someone with real talent should be able to hear that what they've done is crap. If they can't, I don't respect their talent just because they tried something different. They may the hundredth person to try the same thing, but the first to not realize it was crap. If it doesn't stand on its own, I don't care what they were trying to do. I have other outlets for my charity work.

That's not to say I don't skip half the songs I hear on every radio station. Only that it doesn't suck just because it's commercial, any more than it is worthy just because no one bought the CD.

[lildreamer316]

48. exactly! n/t

[EstimatedProphet]

7. Sorry, but it's just not my thing

I don't think i'm being elitist either. And I don't rule out all country-I like a lot of bluegrass, and I think Johnny Cash was a true artist. but it's my opinion that country music for the last 10 years has been like rock was in the mid-70's: it's prepackaged and marketed for a specific audience.

[ghostsofgiants]

8. I've actually never once called myself a liberal...

But I still contend that Nickelback sucks (which is obviously what this is about) and I predict right now that once the album is finished downloading and I finish listening to it, that I will want to stab myelf in the eardrums with icepicks. I predict this because every single Nickelback song I've ever heard has made me want to do this.

[Lavender Brown]

9. There are posts about country music from time to time in the lounge

There are quite a few fans here. :shrug:

[liberaltrucker]

11. You go girl!

Unfortunately, I plead guilty to elitism. Ah, from the mouths of babes(compared to me, that is. My daughter isn't much younger than you). You made this old fart think-keep it up, please:toast:

[caty]

12. I think most of the DUers here

are open minded. However, we are a mix. Some are more open minded than others. Some are not true DUers--they are freepers who post just to start an argument. Some are die hard music fans who only listen to one type of music. I am eclectic in my music taste. I love some of every type of music. I think you cheat yourself when you only listen to one type.

Be patient with us. ;(

[Maddy McCall]

28. I don't agree.

There are many closed-minded DUers who think that, to be a liberal, you have to subscribe to their imaginary liberal checklist.

It's bullshit. It hurts the progressive movement, because it's exclusionary.

There are MANY closed-minded people at DU. Not just on music, but on many philosophical topics.

[jobycom]

36. You preach it, too, sista!

:-) Nothing warms my heart like an angry Mississippi liberal!

[Qanisqineq]

100. Woo-hoo! Hear Hear!

I am with ya 100%. I can't stand the checklist. And I was raised a liberal and taught that to be a liberal meant you were open-minded and accepted others' differences.

*A round of applause for you from me*

:toast:

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lildreamer316]

18. See below

ADD.

[Floogeldy]

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[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lildreamer316]

40. Floogeldy...

Btw just so you know; I had nothing to do with that^^

I am genuinely sorry that my post was not clear; I have been out of practice for awhile and at home with a baby; so my communication skills are not what they should be. Unfortunately; I don't have much time to practice writing right now with work and 2 year old--DU is about it. I'm trying to do better. I do; however; have ADD; and have managed it without medication my whole life; because I believe meds to be a crutch. Having a baby seems to have exacerbated some of my problems with memory and cohesive thought groups; so I am doing my best. I'd appreciate it if you could understand that and I will try not to assault you with my craziness any more than necessary.

[Maddy McCall]

54. Seriously, the last person about whose criticism you should be...

concerned is floogeldy. Talk about nonsensical posting--he wrote the book on it.

Your post is fine and makes perfect sense. Don't let one person dissuade you, dreamer.

[Floogeldy]

57. You flatter me.

And I appreciate it. :)

[Mobius]

118. you know what they say?

people that rip on you for typos, generally can't find anything else to contradict in what you are trying to say.
Although I think there are many other ways to connect to a person's political beliefs, or seek something else as a common factor to break the ice, your post was very elegant and restrained for the emotion you were trying to convey.
I ADORE Johhny Cash, Roy Orbison, Slim Whitman and a few other country greats.
I do not agree however with it being the "Blue Collar Worker's" soundtrack to their lives. I have never liked the term, and believe that people that work with their hands, have a great deal more diversity in their musical tastes than just one genre.
Respectfully,
Möbius

[Aristus]

14. Country music is supposed to be about rebellion, passion, strong

emotions, love, hate, patriotism, sex, family, hard work, great times with good friends, and so on. And it is; it just sucks!

You can get all of the above PLUS good music with classical. B-)

Hell, you can get all of that and more with just one symphony by Mozart, one piano concerto by Beethoven, one nocturne by Chopin and some program music by Berlioz.

Plus, no annoying twang or idiotic catch-phrases. ("Hell, YEAH!";"Git 'er done!")

Don't like classical? Open your mind! :+

[hfojvt]

91. Really? How?

My computer is playing "Overture to Semiramide" right now and I do not get any of the "Rebellion, passion, strong emotions, love, hate, etc ..." Now, if I watched the Opera, then I might get that, but I am not about to listen to a bunch of singing in Latin or Italian. I like my lyrics to be understandable, like, for example "the land of 1000 dances" where he sings "na, na na na-na, na na na-na, na, na-na, na, na na-na, na na na-na (I need somebody to help me now)" or Journey in "Lights" when they sing about San Fransisco - "na, na, na-na, na na, na, na, ..." or when some un-named Bengali sings "Na. Na. Na amare shoshe che-oh na ..."
I just do not get how you are getting all of that from a tune, even if it is a pretty cool one, played with alot of energy.

[ChoralScholar]

15. I think I can appreciate what the OP is saying...

As a music teacher, and as someone who listens to the "SCAN" button, rather than a particular genre, I appreciate a lot of country, and I dislike a lot of it. My radio knob (button) comes in handy.

But, like rock, country encompasses a great deal of styles, not all of which are bad.

Judge the music, not the genre, I guess is my point.

[hobo_baggins]

17. I think every genre, be it pop, country, rock has some good stuff in it...

but usually you have to dig through a whole lot of shit to find it. There is no specific genre i'd ever say I dont' like, because theres always something good if you look hard enough...that being said...there is still alot of really really terrible stuff out there(read nickelback), and you can't shine shit.

[ChoralScholar]

19. Hehe.. I declare January 5 official Nickelback bashing day :) EOM

[lildreamer316]

35. THpppt.

:P

[CarpeDiebold]

20. i have no problems with country

i like some of it, and i don't demonize those who do.

now if someone listens to country AND votes for bush, thinks the war is right, supports wiretapping, and doesn't think karl did anything wrong, then i have issue with that person.

one's musical taste doesn't mean anything to me. and country isn't bad to listen to every once in a while...it's really nothign political.

[Fleshdancer]

22. I use to LOVE country music....

I saw the Judd's, Randy Travis, George Strait and Alan Jackson in concert...on purpose. What turned me off? Teaching ballroom dance.

Here's the thing, I'm a Texan. In Texas, when you're a female dance teacher at a ballroom dance studio, you're most likely teaching single men how to two-step. I have had my poor feet destroyed by uncoordinated men while listening to hours and hours and hours and hours of country music. For some reason, when you tell a guy to move his left foot forward, he suddenly moves his right foot instead. I was listening to too much of it 5 days a week and getting hurt and frustrated at the same time. Now I just don't listen to it.

So there! :P

[GirlinContempt]

23. Wow. Talk about assumptions.

I'm really really weary of this idea that if you don't like something and dare to express it you're somehow squelching others right to enjoy it, or implying they're bad people. There is tons of music I don't like, and probably never will, and I'll say so, er, in a discussion about music.
I don't buy that you have to have an open mind about someones music to talk to them about politics, that's bullshit. Generally speaking you have to be respectful of people to get them to listen to anything you have to say, but respectful and open-minded are different things.
I'm glad New Age music makes you feel fantastic. It makes me wanna stab my brain with a red hot poker.
About all I see in your post is a lot of assumptions about the 'working class', a lot of self-righteousness masking itself as intellectual discourse, and an overall vague idea of what the real issue probably is.
D+ overall.

[ghostsofgiants]

26. D+?

Generous.

[lildreamer316]

31. Not New Age. Techno/Progressive House/Hard House.

Breaks. I was trying to say that some ppl like New Age; I am open to it as much as the other things I mentioned. It seems as usual I was not as clear as I would like to be and I apologize.

I have no assumptions about the working class; I am/have been one and come from it. I was trying to point out that OTHER ppl look at it that way; which is what upsets me. I have experienced people from all walks of life who like all kinds of music. It seems that many who profess to be liberals think that, for example; most people who like country music are of the working class and that most of them voted for Bush; and express contempt for that fact. They do not try to understand t it; which is part of understanding why these ppl voted that way in the first place. If we are going to make any headway with the group they are speaking of, then we had better stop being contemptuous and start listening.

[GirlinContempt]

39. See, I think your point

would make a lot more sense if you focused on addressing peoples lack of respect for others tastes. All too friggin often I hear that I should respect some band because they're artists or whatever, or I shouldn't say anything bad about them, or I should listen to everything before forming an opinion of a genre. It's crap. The real issue is how we address and relate to people around us. Music isn't the only issue, it's an example of the issue, and one that's incredibly divided owing to personal taste. Some people are way way too defensive and take "That band sucks" to mean "I think you suck and your taste sucks and I don't like you". And on the other hand some people DO have the attitude of "You listen to that so you're uncultured, stupid, deaf, etc."

I guess I just found that your post seemed to come closer to the "Don't critisize music others like" side than the "Be respectful when expressing yourself" side. And I personally think the respect is the REAL issue.

[lildreamer316]

43. Okay

I can understand that; and obviously I need to express myself better. I do believe respect is a big part of it; but I also think we could all be more open to different types of music; because to co-opt a different saying; it can be a "window into the soul". Thanks for letting me know what I was not clear on--I really need constructive criticism.

[GirlinContempt]

47. OK glad we're on the same page-ish now

[hfojvt]

93. but you really did not like the play-list you asked me to make for you

Did you? :cry:

There are some examples on this thread of putting down the fans of music along with the music itself, or didn't you notice? Music for the illiterati was the phrase I recall. Yet we probably are agreed in that neither of us can stand to listen to the other's music. I call music "the great divider". If you wanna start an argument, just bring a boombox into a random group of people and there will quickly be a fight about what is going to be played. Even compromise music will probably be impossible to find.

[GirlinContempt]

117. haha I don't even remember

But, ya know, no matter what you bring up in a group of THOUSANDS of people, theres gonna be some rude people, or some offensive comments, or someone getting their lil feewings huwt.

[Lars39]

24. I grew up listening to the classic country artists.

What I hear as "country" nowadays is either mindless dreck or the most depressing stuff I've ever heard.

[jobycom]

30. I grew up on 70s country, hearing the older stuff played a lot, too

I don't find it any better or worse than the current stuff. There's a lot of junk now--maybe more than at other eras, although 80s country was stale, too--but there's a lot of junk in every era. I remember the good songs better than the bad. Twenty or thirty years from now country fans will be talking about how great this era was, and how music then just doesn't sound as good.

It's the same old story--the older generation always tells the younger generation their music is crap, and are absolutely convinced they are unarguably right.

[Lars39]

38. Sorry, you're not describing me.

I live near Nashville, so I've got a little bit of a different take on dreck. :)

[jobycom]

44. I was responding to the content of your post, not trying to describe you.

I live in Austin, so I'm in the other country capital.

[Maddy McCall]

25. Preach it, sista.

Elite snobbery on the left hurts us across the board. You will find, however, that most of the leftist snobs on DU do very little besides sit at their computers all day, ridiculing other people that they have never met in person.

As I've said numerous times before, I came from a long line of rednecks, and of that I am proud. I liked Patsy Cline, Johnny Cash, and the Dixie Chicks when liking them wasn't cool.

I'm amazed now that the elitist snobs have suddenly "discovered" Johnny Cash, and consider him a musical genius, when they scoff at many of his peers, from whom Cash drew influence. I loved Johnny Cash when Johnny Cash wasn't cool.

I'm with you in every last word of your post. You rock, sister. :yourock:

[lildreamer316]

32. Thanks.

Glad you could understand; seems my writing skills need alot of work.
Whew.

[datasuspect]

110. well, this elitist snob

never really cared for johnny cash.

even when he wasn't "cool."

and i don't get how the "cool kids" jumped on that bandwagon. i guess they were issued johnny cash at the same place they get their mechanic shirts.

and don't even get me started on that,

[jobycom]

27. Yep. nt.

[last_texas_dem]

45. Great post

The music "fans" that make me the most suspicious are the ones whose tastes line up almost exactly with those of music critics. Sure, we've all got types of music we generally like more or dislike more than others, but stereotyping people based on the music that they listen to is very closeminded. And what exactly, with the exception of songs with a blatant liberal political message, makes some music more "liberal" or more "conservative" than other music? I think it has a lot more to do with cultural elitism and snobbery than with the sound of the music itself.

[qnr]

49. No, it IS the sound, for many of us. I've been fortunate enough to

live in or spend significant amounts of time in all 50 states. While I have my prejudices about some of them, I don't think I have an "elitist" bone in my body (well, except I'm inordinately proud of having bought only 1 Microsoft product in my entire life, that being Atari Microsoft BASIC back in 1982).

[last_texas_dem]

55. Well, we're in agreement then

My music taste is all over the map, and there isn't much of a pattern to what I'll like or dislike. I like to think it's basically up to what sounds good to me, whether my tastes are compatible with those of the public in general or with the music critics. If you like what you like based on the sound and don't hold the tastes of others who like different sounds against them and judge them as people based on them, more power to you.

What bothers me are the large number of people I know who seem to fall into one of two groups. They either seem to base what they listen to almost entirely on what is popular and what they think the majority of other people are listening to, to the extent that they will focus entirely on one genre for a couple years while it is popular and then abandon it entirely, or they seem to base what they listen to entirely on critics' tastes or listen to only stuff that isn't considered "mainstream" and that few others have heard of. I have known a lot of politically liberal people who fall into this second group in particular and who are highly judgmental of others who don't share their tastes. This seems to be based more on wanting to be perceived a certain way for listening to a certain type of music and not listening to other types of music than genuinely based on the sound of the music itself, and this is the type of musical elitism I'm referring to.

[NMMNG]

46. I don't like country music

It has nothing to do with the "type" of people allegedly associated with it (one of whom is a very close friend of mine), I simply don't like country music and never have. I won't apologize for it any more than I will apologize for the types of music I do like. :shrug:

[lildreamer316]

50. Buffy..

Certainly not asking for you to apoligize for that. It seems as usual my writings skills suck. What I mean is that many who describe themselves as open-minded and liberal ; lump people who like country into a group; call them a name and describe them as ignorant while bemoaning the fact that they voted Republican/for Bush. Then they want to know how to comunicate with these same people and convince them they are not elitist. See what I mean? Again; sorry I was not clear.

[NMMNG]

61. I see, point taken

:thumbsup:

[khashka]

51. Musical elitism?

But you say you dislike some rap and hip hop.

I detest country - except for Willie Nelson and Patsy Cline. So I hate rednecks?

I also don't like soul music - does that make me a racist? If so you are too.

Music is a very personal thang - I like what speaks to me,

Judging people on their musical tastes is a fool's game. Which might be what you are saying.

But I won't pretend to like country music to get the job done, I'll put my energy into real life issues for real life people. And they can hate my music.

Khash.

[jobycom]

52. That wasn't her point. nt.

[khashka]

69. No that was her point...

That by dismissing other peoples musical tastes we alienate them and aren't able to reach them.

Lots of people detest my musical tastes - that doesn't mean their words and ideas don't inspire me.

I just think she's wrong.

Khash.

[jobycom]

74. Read her other posts up and down the thread

She's complaining about people who close their mind to country music simply because they make assumptions about the people who listen to it, and who make assumptions about people who listen to country just for listening to it. She's said all over the place that she wasn't talking about people who listen to it and don't like it. That's not being closed-minded, it's just forming an opinion. She's talking about the people who mock country music as the music of "mouth breathers (whatever that means)" and "inbreeders" and such. She's not saying you have to like country, only that liberals shouldn't be trashing a form of music because we make close-minded assumptions about the music or the people who listen to it.

If I'm wrong, lildreamer, correct me, but that's how I read it.

[lildreamer316]

77. Perfect; thanks.

I seem to not be very clear in my posts--really got to practice that.

[khashka]

94. I have read her other posts

and she makes a good point. My disagreement was not an attack on her. I just thought she was just tarring us with a very wide brush in the OP.


Her additional posts made her thoughts more clear.

Khash,

[lildreamer316]

75. We?

(speaking to your first sentence)
I am saying some do think that way. I don't know if you personally do; and by even stating such I would hazard a guess that you don't. But I do think that it can be a problem; and have seen evidence of it here. Music is a vitally important part of many people's lives; and to many (as I said in another post) a "window to the soul". When someone puts down the music that touches your innermost feelings; how does that make the average joe feel? Well; if we are to try and understand/reach the average joe to help him or her realize they are voting against their best interests (voting to end some of their very lives); is it productive to attack soemthing they hold so dear? Don't tell me they don't hold it dear--in this tough time; for some it is one of their only escapes.

[asthmaticeog]

53. WTF does this have to do with the fact that Nickelback blows asswater?

A lot of people hate one scheissey band of opportunist hacks. So the fuck what? Extrapolating that into a fucking manifesto about how we're all bad liberals if we don't share your taste is a logical fallacy so greivous that committing is essentially conceding that you have no argument. It's called a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter. Look it up and quit doing it. The only thing you know about the people you're feebly trying to excoriate here is that they dislike one thing you like.

Age btw: 35

[lildreamer316]

60. No no no

I have been meaning to post this for about 2 months now; the Nickelback thread just reminded me of some of the things I wanted to say. It is really about the many times I see the country bashing/lumping together of people who listen to it into a group and calling them ignorant; etc. etc.Then same people wonder why they are percieved as "snobs" by this group; and want to know why they voted as they did...."how can we reach them?" Again,if we don't understand where the people are coming from; how are we to reach them politically?

[asthmaticeog]

64. You're being chumped by a right wing argument.

One needn't have the same consumer preferences as another person to reach him or her politically. You're making the "brie and latte" argument from the other side. It's crap.

[lildreamer316]

71. But I see it here

/have seen it here several times. I am basing this on personal observation. Now; maybe my observation is tainted with personal predjudices; but I did not just take a right wing argument and look for evidence in one thread here. This has been bugging me for awhile. I am willing to admit I may not be seeing things clearly--but does anyone really? I do think it is an issue that needs to be addressed. An open mind is an open mind; and I am open to the fact that I may be wrong--but the motivation came from an honest observation.

[asthmaticeog]

79. OK, here's something to mentally chew on.

I listen to music NO ONE likes. They've never even heard of it. For the most part they're happier not knowing it exists. I don't even TRY to start many music threads anymore, because nobody will respond but Random Koolzip, jpgray and Fenris, and as much as I like them personally, we're all pretty much on the same page already, so what's the point? Hardly anyone tries to listen to or "understand" the stuff I'm into, and yet I can still discuss public policy and current events with people. So I can't buy your argument. And by the way, it works both ways. Preach acceptance of musique concret or Pere Ubu to Appalachians, and I'll buy into your "can't we all get along" crusade.

Plus, you're defending the stuff we're all subjected to whether we like it or not every time we turn on the car radio or set foot in a shopping center. It doesn't need your defense. We've all heard it, we've all had a chance to make up our minds about it.

[Beware the Beast Man]

82. Hey, what about me? Am I not snobby enough for you anymore?

:cry:

[asthmaticeog]

85. How many names does a guy have to drop?

*sigh*

To the aforesaid DUers, append Beware the Beast Man, CanuckAmok, XNASA, primate1, GirlinContempt, flamingyouth, Enigmatic, whoisalhedges, tigereye, swag, the late lamented Screaming Lord Byron and any other of DU's tiny handful of freak-jobs I may be forgetting this late at fucking night. Depending, of course, on who happens to be logged on and surfing in the Lounge at any given time.

See why I kept it to three? Yeesh, try to make a goddamn point...

On edit: dolo amber. That one, I will catch hell for missing.

[Beware the Beast Man]

86. Eh, she likes Supertramp. She is disqualified.

:D

[asthmaticeog]

87. You know, Supertramp fans vote too.

This is why we lose elections, Beastie, because YOU'RE not making enough of an effort to reach out to the chuckleheads.

On edit: am I *really* still up? WTF is wrong with me?

[lildreamer316]

88. Dupe

[lildreamer316]

Well of course

YOU can discuss public policy; etc. But there are some that would; if knowing that I owned more than one country song; lump me right into the "stupid redneck" group and wonder aloud how I mangaged to scrape together the intelligence to vote for Gore and Kerry.
Here's where we seem to be misunderstanding each other: I am not defending country music per se. I am defending the people who like country music. To reprint what I said in a post below:
Music is a vitally important part of many people's lives; and to many (as I said in another post) a "window to the soul". When someone puts down the music that touches your innermost feelings; how does that make the average joe feel? Well; if we are to try and understand/reach the average joe to help him or her realize they are voting against their best interests (voting to end some of their very lives); is it productive to attack soemthing they hold so dear? Don't tell me they don't hold it dear--in this tough time; for some it is one of their only escapes.
Therefore; attacking it is seen as attacking them..wether that is TRUE or not; it is a matter of perception. Of course we should all be able to tell the difference....sorry; the world is not that advanced yet. You work with what you have. All I am saying is don't bitch because the people you are trying to get through to aren't listening....maybe there is a reason.

[asthmaticeog]

120. "how does that make the average joe feel?" etc. etc. etc.

Any idea how patronising that is? Right there, with those words, you implicitly set yourself above the "average joe." Well, I pretty much AM an average joe - I work my ass off for not quite enough money to get by, I scrimp during the week so I can afford to go out for a few drinks on Friday and Saturday -- shit, lildreamer, by that yardstick my life's a fucking Donnie Iris song. I just happen to like weird art. Your presupposition that class differences are entirely based on consumer preferences is entirely bunk, and it's a wedge the right uses to alienate non-city dwellers from the left. Your will to use that presupposition to encourage "mending fences" is A) based on mistruths and B) condescending beyond belief. You may not be calling anyone a "stupid redneck" (which is to your credit - I HATE racist, classist "white trash" smears), but it's no less insulting to talk about 'em the way social workers talk about retarded people.

[GirlinContempt]

124. Took the words right outta my mouth

"About all I see in your post is a lot of assumptions about the 'working class'"

I shoulda elucidated on that

[lildreamer316]

136. Not so much.

"Your presupposition that class differences are entirely based on consumer preferences.. "
It is not MY presupposition.It seems to be that it is the general presupposition on the board whenever someone posts about "rednecks; average joes; blue collar workers" and etc.; and country music! When people here are wondering about why a particular GROUP of people voted for BUSH (therefore AGAINSt their own self-interests); they tend to lump them together in one of the above terms or something similar. I was just trying to get people to understand that if they want to reach the people that THEY THEMSELVES PERCEIVE to be in this group; WHETHER OR NOT IN REALITY THESE PEOPLE ARE IN THAT GROUP;they need to understand that MANY of the people in the group they want to speak to listen to country, and learn how to communicate or/and understand where they are coming from (instead of demeaning them through their music choice). Example--I live in NC. The biggest radio station in NC is WTQR 104.1; a COUNTRY station--It's huge. We are a red state with a fair amount of manufacturing an labor/blue collar jobs. Um; I believe the SLIGHT generalization that a few minds of COUNTRY listeners here need to be changed is in order. Excuse me for looking at the FACTS. However; I personally do not demean their music choice on a PUBLIC board. Nor do I PERSONALLY assume that every country listener I meet needs to be "reeducated" politically; or that they are even to be lumped in a group.
I don't really understand how; under your model; how we are supposed to make ANY progress at all. I am not putting these labels on people; it is simply a way for me to get my idea across using what I am seeing OTHER PEOPLE on this board do--so that maybe they will understand me. Music speaks to a person's soul--at least it does for me. If you come to me and are trying to get me to understand a vitally important idea; one that is potentially life-changing; you are going to get ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE if you call me; (using myself as an example) an ignorant airhead who does not appreciate talent because I happen to think that Sammy Hagar took Van Halen places that David Lee Roth could never go musically. Eh? Turned me off right there. "How can you like techno? It has no SOUL!" I'm going to be a bit more wary of you than at first.Personally; I will still listen to you; because I have an open mind; but in honesty; is that the norm? Give me a break. You can't get through to people by attacking something they think of as personal; like music choice.

[lildreamer316]

89. Dupe

[seemunkee]

112. I recognize all those bands and probably many others you listen to

I have always listened to music that was on the edge like The Residents when they first started. I can't stand the pablum that is on the radio no matter what the genre. But I do also like bluegrass, western swing, and old country. What is being played today is not country its commercial music that is promoted by the large labels. Just like the rock and pop stations. The only cutting edge music being played on the radio is rap which I just don't like. I have tinitis and lyrics are too hard for me to make out on most music and that is what rap is about.
Last week I had to rent a car when mine died on a trip. I was excited to try XM radio that came in the car. I soon realized that every channel played "safe" music. The stations that played 70's, 80s and 90s music played the same shit that I tried to avoid when it first came out. The punk and hardcore channels sucked. I'll stick to the CD player and the local Pacifca/jazz channel. On Sundays I'll listen to the bluegrass and old country shows but leave the new Nashville shit alone.

[XemaSab]

56. I've worked VERY hard to appreciate country

and I'm at the point now where I can say that some of it is OK, but for every song played on country songs that I like, there are 2 that I'm indifferent to, and one that sucks hard.

[lildreamer316]

63. If

you don't like it; then you just don't like it. My problem is with those who put it down without listening to it even once; or trying at all. Speaks to thier open-mindedness about other things; don't you think?

[XemaSab]

66. It's like racism or sushi...

one bad experience goes a LONG ways...

[LSK]

73. your in Chicago right?

US99 is one of the WORST stations in the countries. Ive traveled around a lot and trust me, IT SUCKS.

[XemaSab]

76. Napes

Redding, California!!!!

Woo!

[XemaSab]

78. But I'm not, like, FROM Redding

I'm from Oakland, CA.

[LSK]

80. Paris? Atlanta? Boise? Denver? Miami?

Where are you right now?!

[XemaSab]

84. In Redding

NORTHERN California! :D

[Elidor]

58. FREEBIRD!!!

Alas, there is no smiley for dripping cynicism. :evilgrin:

[fishwax]

59. commercial country long since ceased to be an expression of the blue

collar working man. I just can't buy that it is. It's sold that way, because the political right has managed to convince the media that working class values primarily feature jingoism, misogyny, etc. (in the same way the right has managed to corner the perception of "christian" values). I don't think commercial/pop country is really much different from commercial/pop rock, and among the many many working class people i'm fortunate enough to wander among, there is certainly some love for country music, but it's far from the most popular music form (rock, classic rock, southern rock, blues, hip hop seem to be equally as popular). Most of the people I know who like contemporary commercial country are middle-class right of center types.

Anyway, I'm a HUGE country fan, I just don't like much of anything that comes out of nashville these days or is played on country radio stations. Nor do I like most of what's played on rock/pop stations. Some people like it, and that's fine for them, I suppose, but i don't think there are huge blocs of voters who might consider the democratic platform if only we didn't make fun of their music, and even if there were, I think we can discuss politics with them without pretending that toby keith or keith urban are somehow organic voices of the people rather than prepackeged media objects.

:)

[RandomKoolzip]

62. Whatever. If I think something sucks, I'm gonna say it.

Sorry. :shrug: We're dealing with aesthetics here, and they should never knuckle under to sociology.

Oh, and by the way, I play drums in a country band, and no one in my family has ever made more than 30,000 dollars a year.

Age: 30

[lildreamer316]

68. Sorry; not the point I was

attempting to make (seems I really suck at my writing these days). If you don't like it; you don't like it. I am assuming you have listened to it more than once to arrive at this decision. My problem is with liberals lumping all those who like country (or a majority of them)into a group; calling them ignorant/redneck; and decrying the fact they all voted for Bush. Then; they wonder why same group is calling them (liberals) elitist and snobby; and wondering why the can't change thier minds to vote for liberal candidates? "Why can't we get through to them?" they wonder. "why won't they listen to us? How can we communicate with them?" We can start by not demeaning their music--not that all of them DO listen to country; it just seems to be what many THINK.

[leftstreet]

65. Did you know CW music can be sung to military cadence?

Military Cadence:
This is my rifle this is my gun
This is for fighting this is for fun

C/W Lyrics:
I'm gonna live where the green grass grows
Watch my corn pop up in rows

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[bridgit]

67. i don't know but i been told...

lee ann womack is solid gold http://www.leeannwomack.com B-)

[leftstreet]

70. LOL!

:spray:

[LSK]

72. not too many years ago I LOVED Country music

Then Toby Keith started getting political. Then Daryl Worley wrote that Iraq War propaganda song "have you forgotten". Then I start reading about how a lot of country music stars are Republican supporters. Then the 2004 election has Brooks and Dunn and Toby Keith campaigning for Bush. Lee Greenwood is there too. Clint Black was going to highlight a concert put on by the Pentagon.

Someone who 3 years ago was thrilled to finally get CMT today NEVER watches it.

I caught a Brad Paisley video recently at my sisters house about great Americans. One of them was Ronald Reagan.

Im sorry, but I HATE country music right now.

I truly despise it.

:grr:

[lildreamer316]

83. You are right.

Many of them drive me absolutely nuts....which is why I applaud and listen to those that are NOT on that bandwagon personally.
Again; I am complaining about those that trash it without listening to it; or lump those that listen to it into a group; call them a name and sneer. I am complaining about the lack of open minds on the subject; and the fact that if we are not careful; as a group we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We cannot attack those that listen to this music and voted for Bush as ignorant and stupid and then expect to "convert" them. There is good and bad in all music. Sometimes it is not just for you; know what I mean?

[lukasahero]

123. I'm so on board with you here

I still listen to what I call the "real" country music of today, bluegrass and appalachian mountain music, but I just got so pissed off when "our" celebs get told to STFU and stay out of politics but it's ok when it's Toby Keith having an opinion.

I have stacks of country music cds, have seen lots of concerts and even had one particular country song tied to my wedding but I am tired of the "it's ok for them but not ok for us" mentality. I'm sick of pop country music as a genre because of the hypocrisy.

As to the quality of the music, I think it has gone downhill but only because it is being run more like the pop industry now and they're just cranking out tunes and "acts" to keep up with the new demand from mainstream America that never existed before.

[William Bloode]

81. I see the snobbishness as well.

But to me their opinion matters one whit. If they don't like my personal choice of music they can kiss my big country ass!

I think a lot of it has to do with Southern bashing as well. That tends to be a sport for some on D.U.. For those folks refer to the above statement.

Sometimes i can get over how a party thats supposed to be for and about the common man/woman can put him down so much. It almost like we are unwanted relatives to some. We don't know anything, we don't have taste, we don't have class.

I love country music personally. Along with Jazz, Blues, Rock, Heavy Metal, and Classical. Each genre has it's good and it's bad. Some like what others don't, but some folks can't see past other peoples choices. Many i think get a kick out of putting down people they think they are Superior to. Elitism under a veil.

We get this kind of attitude from the so called big tent party, where everyone's differences are supposed to be respected. Sometimes we are just as bad as the freepers around here.

[lildreamer316]

90. Pretty much what I am saying..

But I want to move past bitching about it and just say --Look..if you want to reach these people who voted for Bush last time;then you need to open your mind and try to understand them...or at least not pass judgement so quickly.-- I want to show them there is a POLITICAL advantage to having an open mind about this. Whatever it takes. We really need to pull together--it is that important.

Thanks to your big country ass! ;)

[newspeak]

99. you know, I don't where ya'll are coming from

most people on DU are more broad range with their music---yeah, there are some that are pretty much against (including me) the commericalized bullshite----that seems to get played over and over again---year, play a song with American in it and kicking some butt and that's a number one song!!!! I think some are tired of "ignorant country". I listen to folk, which the music can be traced back in ballads two hundred years or more and bluegrass, which I love (working man's music), but plastic fantastic corporate country is nothing to sing home about. Old country music, yeah and some of the artists's today that have it together, but don't go slamming us at DU about all of us not appriciating country. Some of us are very, very versatile.

[JCMach1]

92. Love country music, but it tends to be the older 'classic'

variety...

Give me Hank Williams any day...

[newspeak]

95. okay, you can go on a rant

I was raised on country, bar type, cry in your beer country. My father, though is a bluegrass musician. He plays banjo and guitar. I like some country, Dixie chicks and Willie Nelson. I do not like it all. I'm from the sixties and seventies, so I am more rock and roll--my daughter (I don't know how) listens to more country--but we have basically the same political and idealogical beliefs--I really don't know what your rant is about--of course, both of us would agree we're not going to be listening anytime soon about a song that says kick Iraqui butt and USA is the greatest--and oh by the way, I'm not a country listener, but I do love the Dixie Chicks and have two of their albums. So what's the problem? I also listen to classical music, besides rock and some country.

[newspeak]

96. oh, and my son

punk rock--=he was in a punk rock band--to me, that goes beyond country music.

[Maddy McCall]

97. Sooo many people have missed the point of the OP. That's sad.

The point is a valid one. She's not proponing country music as much as she's pointing out how our snobbishness toward other people's cultural expressions hurts our own cause.

Yet just about everyone who's responded to this thread is replying with posts about how much they like or hate country music.

The point was missed by many. :shrug:

[newspeak]

101. you know that's just BS

okay you want to think that way, go ahead. It's not about music then, is it? It's about culture. So speak about culture---yes, some people are threatened about a perceived conception of ideals that is a threat with our political environment today. So speak about that, not about the music!!!! So, do you think some should be worried that there are some people who are Americans who don't even know about the Constitution or the Bill of rights---that is their own legacy? Shouldn't that concern some who are attempting to fight to keep it intact, for what purpose when there are some that don't even know their own legacy? If you want to make this more than music, than we can--

[Maddy McCall]

103. If that's what you have to say, start your own thread.

So that I can reply to you, "Huh?"

[lildreamer316]

104. You know;

it seems as if they didn't even read half the post. NOBODY said anything about my techno references; and how I think (if you are going to pick a genre for the movement) it should be more closely identified with the progressive movement; etc. etc.
Very strange how just the word/idea of country music makes some ppl so defensive! Interesting!

[Maddy McCall]

105. I know! This thread has turned out to be quite humorous.

I bookmarked it so that I can go back time to time for a laugh. Seemingly intelligent people completely lost the point. Aaargh! :banghead:

[GirlinContempt]

125. "NOBODY said anything about my techno references"

Liar

[lildreamer316]

131. oops

tired; forgot; sorry....speaking in general terms.For some reason I had that convo separate in my mind.Late night.

[AntiCoup2K4]

98. Some country music can be great.

Hank Williams Sr. Johnny Cash. Waylon & Willie. Chet Atkins might have been one of the most underrated guitarists in the history of recorded music. Garth Brooks made some of the best music of the 1990's, and songs like "We Shall Be Free" were amazingly progressive considering the mentality of the Nashville establishment. Not sure why Garth decided to turn into a WalMart sellout, but I still pull out the old albums now and then.

Recent country, of course, has had a lot of Bush propaganda bullshit infused into it, and that's why I haven't kept up with modern country music radio for years. But sadly, MOST genres of music have been worthless since about 1996. Or at least what the corporations will sign and the corporate radio will play. Since 1996, I think I've bought an average of about 3 CD's a year of what would be considered new material. And even most of that is from bands that were around long before then.

What we could use right now is the rebirth of political punk rock like we had when Reagan was in the White House. Hopefully Green Day's "American Idiot" will inspire such things, whether or not you consider them a "punk band". Right now I wish The Clash or the Dead Kennedys were still around to show the kids how it's done.

[newspeak]

102. amen AntiCoup, amen

I agree Hank Williams Sr and Johnny Cash---and you know I grew up with them (through my mother) and Jim Reeves. And, Woody Guthriie (folk).

[Borgnine]

106. Excellent post.

And I'm not even a country music fan. Your post could be applied to dozens of other topics and still be applicable.

I love DU, I love a lot of the people who post here, but some of the snobbery is ridiculous and keeps me lurking more than posting.

[njdemocrat106]

107. I'm in agreement with you

I'm glad I read this thread after I read your thread in praise of Nickelback's latest album, which subsequently caused a massive smackdown of the above mentioned band. While I can't say I'm a Nickelback fan (I'm not much for late 90s/00s contemporary hard rock/heavy metal), I do enjoy a fair bit of country music. However, I have noticed an extreme snootiness when it comes to music here in general. I pretty much only listen to mainstream rock, pop, r+b, and (a little) country music from the 60s, 70s, and 80s, (and a little 90s and 00s), with heavy emphasis on pop. Almost everyone here at DU (well, in the Lounge anyway) seems to be obsessed with indy-label and unsigned underground bands that 99% of the country hasn't heard of. In my opinion, the reason most of these underground bands stay underground and don't get major-label record deals is because they blow chunks, but I don't sit around chastising people for listening to music that I don't care for. Tastes in music are kind of like people's driving abilities: everybody thinks they have the greatest taste in music, much like how everybody thinks they're an excellent driver.

Just remember, people, good music is whatever YOU like, but it's also whatever I like. (I remember reading that phrase on a website a few years back, so don't credit me for that saying :) ).

And BTW, looking at your username, you don't happen to like VH by any chance, do you?

[lildreamer316]

139. Whatever gave you that idea?

Just a little tiny bit (read:slightly obsessed)B-)

[DanCa]

108. Music is suggestive

I get slammed for my musical choices, Springsteen, Manilow, and Diamond, it doesn't bother me. I also listen to folk and blues. As far as country goes well I just dont get the country pop stuff but i wont insult anybody for listening to it. I am not in jurnior high after all.

[Mutley]

109. Very well said.

I'm even younger than YOU are (26), but I like all sorts of music; some dating back to thousands of years ago, some dating back to my grandfather's childhood, some dating back into my mother's and father's childhood, and some dating back to my childhood and teen years.

There are not really any entire genres that I "hate", though I like some more than others. I don't like country much, though there are country songs that I enjoy. It's the same with modern day rap, hip-hop, pop, and rock (okay, most music that has come out of this century so far -- though again, I do like some of it). I'm more into older music, I suppose, though I never really thought of it that way until this moment.

But I, for one, would never presume to look down my nose at anyone else's music, even if I don't like it at all. I don't begrudge anyone what THEY like for THEMSELVES. Hey, if I don't like it, I don't have to listen to it, right?

[datasuspect]

111. LIBRULS!!!

don't alienate this guy:



every time you diss rascal flats or big and rich, this whole family cries together:

[ScreamingMeemie]

113. This 35 year old, Bobby Goldsboro's "Honey" loving mom says

right on, lildreamer. But you will see...there are many of us who come from the same space as you. :thumbsup: We just don't talk as loud.

[LostinVA]

114. Why do I refuse to listen to Country? I'll tell you.

I'm 41, and loved Country when Country wasn't cool. About 50% of what I listened to and bought was this genre. I watched CMT's countdown every night, went to concerts, etc. No more. Why? Because of the Dixie Chicks debacle. Country music as an establishment -- labels, stations, performers, fans -- blacklisted and vilified them in a most horrific way. Worse than anything I've ever seen. No one has EVER apologized for it. Ever.

The ONLY people I still listen to are those like Tim McGraw and Faith Hill who spoke out for the Chicks at the beginning of this assault. I'm sure many singers supported the Chicks but refused to say so publicly. Fuck them. Silence is taken as agreement. And, look at the crazed posturing by Toby Keith and the scads of sickening "patriotic" songs that came out after this.

So, no, I no longer listen to Country. I refuse to give a dime or any support to the huge majority of those who allowed censorship and blacklisting to occur. I'm not an elitist, I'm a real American.

[lukasahero]

126. Bra-frickin-vo!

Thank you! Sounds like we're in the same place. :yourock:

[LostinVA]

152. Bravo back to you!

Although, I keep hoping Keith Urban starts being played on Pop Music stations!

[Skittles]

115. I can't stand country music because it depresses me

so f***ing sue me

[Burma Jones]

116. So now we're not allowed to like and dislike whatever music we want

Any time anyone tells me that a certain kind of music (or art or film or whatever) should be THE music for progression (or whatever), I cringe.

There's music that people think is lousy in every genre. If we can't talk about it without people getting offended, then people need thicker skins. If we can't choose which threads get our attention, then I just give up.

There's no accounting for taste. I don't judge people by their taste, but if there's a discussion bashing some sort of expression the I don't like, I would like the ability to join in the bashing and not have someone take such umbrage at what is, essentially, just a matter of taste. In short, I don't want to be judged according to what I like either, and I want to be able to join in discussions that mock things I don't like, can't we have our fun? Threads do have a hide option.......



Now, I'm waiting for Thomas Kinkade's defenders to rip us a new one for cultural elitism......

[bridgit]

119. i draw a further distinction between country music...

and country & western music, so that doc watson is to my mind 'country' music, so is allot of dolly , who i have no problem with (she's just a big ole hillbilly girl and that is fine by me); however, by not caring all that much for toby keith is not to say that i am culturally insensitive to the 'country' or 'southern mind', when much of the 'southern mind' is insensitive to the vast bulk of america unless & until alan jackson is standing on the empire state building singing about how country everybody may-should like to be...a song, which, by the way, i like.

there's no way around it. america was founded sacred native american, european 'country', and delta blues. you can like it, love it, OR leave it imo that is the way it is.

country music has been known to sell very well in the cultural hubs of america because i think those hubs to be intellectually honest and accepting. i hope i have understood this OP, i read it a couple times, as well as certain responses...but who can say for sure

bridgit ~


Little Omie Wise ~ Traditional by Doc Watson

Oh, listen to my story, I'll tell you no lies,
How John Lewis did murder poor little Omie Wise.

He told her to meet him at Adam's Springs.
He promised her money and other fine things.

So, fool-like she met him at Adam's Springs.
No money he brought her nor other fine things.

"Go with me, little Omie, and away we will go.
We'll go and get married and no one will know."

She climbed up behind him and away they did go,
But off to the river where deep waters flow.

"John Lewis, John Lewis, will you tell me your mind?
Do you intend to marry me or leave me behind?"

"Little Omie, little Omie, I'll tell you my mind.
My mind is to drown you and leave you behind."

"Have mercy on my baby and spare me my life,
I'll go home as a beggar and never be your wife."

He kissed her and hugged her and turned her around,
Then pushed her in deep waters where he knew that she would drown.

He got on his pony and away he did ride,
As the screams of little Omie went down by his side.

T'was on a Thursday morning, the rain was pouring down,
When the people searched for Omie but she could not be found.

Two boys went a-fishin' one fine summer day,
And saw little Omie's body go floating away.

They threw their net around her and drew her to the bank.
Her clothes all wet and muddy, they laid her on a plank.

Then sent for John Lewis to come to that place --
And brought her out before him so that he might see her face.

He made no confession but they carried him to jail,
No friends or relations would go on his bail.

[kwassa]

121. Much current country is thinly-diguised pop

I find it uninteresting because, like much current pop, it has been done better before by other artists. This isn't elitism; it is been-there, done-that. Simple4/4 time signatures and pop tunes.

Much of what used to be folk rock migrated into country, also power pop, stadium rock, etc. It's all homogenous show biz stuff.

as to the older honky-tonk lifestyle, it is really no more appealing than the bling bling of the hiphop artists. It is all false messages.

I do like this old joke about country western:

What do you get when you play a country record backwards?

You get your dog back, your truck back, and your girl back.

[Strong Atheist]

122. Country music is just

plain annoying, with all that twang. Had to put up with it for 7 years because a girlfriend liked it. Bleach. Hate it. Has nothing to do with politics for me.x(

[sweetm2475]

127. i love country music

:yourock:

[Left Is Write]

128. I worked in country radio during the hottest of the "hot country"

craze in the 90s. I saw firsthand what was happening - many, many, many quality artists were being shunned in favor of slick, packaged "hat acts." Wave after wave of new acts crossed my desk: they all looked alike and sounded alike. Unique, innovative or otherwise "different" newcomers never even had a chance. It was hugely disillusioning.

Commercially popular country music then and now is largely about selling an image.

I love good roots country music that comes from someplace more real than a record company songmill. I love the music my parents raised me on. And speaking of my parents...aren't you doing a little pigeon-holing yourself? Not all country listeners are blue collar, and not all blue collar people listen to country.

[hyphenate]

129. I usually don't post to music threads

because sometimes I am very much out of my league. (Now TV, on the other hand--that's a whole nother thing!)

I like almost all music, but I have a preference for pop and classical most, I guess. My list of "favorites" does include some country as well, but my mom used to listen to country 24/7 and I got sick of it. I have no objections to it as a genre, though, and really admire some country singers who have made it despite difficult lives.

[Texasgal]

130. I agree Dreamer...

The same problems happen here not only with music...

It happens with football games and geographical location too.

The other night I was an asshole Longhorn lover that lives in *gasp* TEXAS!

The eliteness and snobbishness is HUGE on this board, and anyone who thinks it isn't needs to lurk ALOT more.

Thanks for your post! :hug:

OH, and I am a PROUD REDNECK who ENJOYS Country music as well as other types! I am 36!

[johnnie]

133. .

:eyes:

[Texasgal]

134. Oh whatever Johnnie...

I'm not crying in beer over it, but it DOES happen.

[johnnie]

141. I agree... It does happen

I just don't think anyone hates anyone on here for where they live. Or even what college football team they like.

I'm not trying to start an argument with you Texasgal, it's just that there are a hell of a lot of people on here with ten times that many more opinions. I see a lot of the "elitism" on these boards too, but it is just easier to let them go than it is to debate them. It can be frustrating sometimes if you let what people say get to you, but it is best to realize that there are a lot more people on here that won't bash your opinions as there are that will.

[Texasgal]

145. Spend some time in GD

Then you'll see what I am talking about.

Ask any TEXAN or SOUTHERN person on this board if they have ever seen geographical snobbery and see what they say.

As far as the football thread... I think you missed some threads above that night where lots of people stated that they would never cheer on a TEXAN TEAM...simply because they were from TEXAS, the shittiest place in the world with shitty people to boot.

Just ask around... I think you'll find that the reason why us southerners have become so defensive is because it happens WAAAAAAAAY to much here on DU.

[johnnie]

132. I believe there is room for everything out there

Music is a very personal thing with most people and they can get pretty opinionated about it. I used to say that this sucked and that sucked, but I was much younger then.

I came to the conclusion many years ago that nothing really "sucks" it is just an acquired taste. I have my opinions on what I like and dislike, but for the most part I leave it up to each person to decide what they like or not.

[DS1]

135. Oh fuck this bullshit

I know what I don't like, and I don't like Nickelback, and I'm not gonna force myself to listen to ANYMORE of their SHIT MUSIC just because YOU think it's good.


MUSIC IS SUBJECTIVE

WHY CAN'T YOU BE OPEN-MINDED ABOUT PEOPLE NOT LIKING WHAT YOU DO?

[jonnyblitz]

138. THANK YOU!!!

a fucking drawn out dissertation rationalizing difference in music tastes as cultural/geographical elitism and/or narrowmindedness is a stretch. hell i am getting on into geezerhood and i still like Marilyn Manson and I am not going to freak out because people think I am nuts because of it. :shrug:

[SiobhanClancy]

148. If you're getting on into geezerhood...

then I must be getting on into mummification:) Really,who bloody cares about what people think about our musical tastes? I'd hate to think about what people might think if they knew how many times I played my Joan Baez Christmas album recently...horrors!

[lildreamer316]

140. Because this post had nothing to do with the Nickleback one.

As I said twice before; I have been wanting to post on this subject for at least 2 months; and was using the time to mull over what I wanted to say. I don't give a rat's ass if you like Nickleback or not. I don't care WHAT you like. If you really think that is what this is about then you either did not read the OPost here or you did not understand it. To me; if one is going to be a Democrat/Liberal/Whatever (non-republican) on this board and complain about why a particular group of people did not vote against GWB in the last election; and wonder what we can do about it; I felt it was best to point out that we here are not going to get ANYWHERE by attacking the MUSICAL TASTE (which it seems to be most people here THINK is country) of the VERY PEOPLE whos minds we are trying to change.
Get it?
Wow.

[Burma Jones]

144. Thanks DS1

[johnnie]

147. Seriously though

I didn't quite get all of the OP, but I have seen people try to belittle other people just because of a certain type of music they listen to or a band they might like.

Music is very personal to each person and it can be frustrating when people tell you that what you like sucks and is crap. It's like telling someone "You named your son Frank...what a stupid fucking name".

[jane_pippin]

137. I've read your OP a couple times, but I still have to take issue

with a few things.

You make a lot of good points about assumptions and a live and let live attitude is admirable. When it comes down to it, I really don't care what people listen to because it's their ears and their money, not mine, and whatever makes people happy makes them happy. Good for them.

However. People listen to a lot of crapola. A lot of crapola. I don't think being a liberal means I'm not allowed to think certain kinds of music are total crap when, in fact, it is. I also think I'm allowed to hold the opinion that most mainstream music is pretty much unlistenable, focus grouped, over-produced, masturbatory, noodlely garbage, no matter what genre it hails from.

Does this make me an elitist? Maybe. Do I happen to care? Not particularly in this instance, no. I spent about 5 years working in independent record stores. One of them catered to everybody--they had everything from Britney Spears to Pussy Galore and everything in between and around them. Another one catered to, for lack of a better term, record nerds. The owner--one of the nicest, sweetest guys I know--flat out refused to stock Britney Spears because it could be taking up space where a good record could be. Last I heard, both stores were doing well.

Why am I telling you this? Because I want you to know that it's completely possible for me to not judge people based on the music they like while simultaneously thinking their music is the worst sounding crap ever to be recorded. For instance, if New Age music becomes the music emblematic of the progressive movement I'd like someone to jam stick-pins in my ears until I'm deaf with no hope of recovery. Do I think less of you for enjoying it? Not at all. You might have the same reaction to music I think represents it. That's fine by me.

As far as being open minded goes, you've got a point. But being open minded doesn't mean I should force myself to see something good in something obviously terrible just because someone else likes it. I have no problem being exposed to good music of all genres. In fact, with a good record I can not like it and still see why it should be liked, written about, and remembered as a great record for decades to come. Example: New Pornographers. They're great. They deserve the praise they get and they deserve to have a lot of fans. I'm not planning on buying their record any time soon, but if I got a copy as a gift I'd probably listen to it a few times and like it well enough, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I love them or anything like that. If, on the other hand, someone gave me a copy of a Creed record, I'd politely thank them and march down to the used cd store as fast as I could to beg them to give me 2 dollars for it or at least get it out of my house if they couldn't give me money for it.

I know I'm rambling here, but I just have a thing or two more I want to say.

I see your point about some commercially successful bands being good. Except I think the ones that really are great happened to be at the right place at the right time, and had some commercial appeal in addition to the music being great in and of itself. For some reason Beck keeps popping into my head as an example of this. (And plenty of people hate Beck too). I mean, I've seen bands play in front of 70 people who went on to become internationally successful bands playing in arenas making more money than they know what to do with, and they deserved it. I've also seen bands who deserve that not get anywhere close to that kind of fame. For bands trying to do it themselves, (as opposed to bands assembled by a major label to mimic other good music and repackage it for the masses), commercial success is something of a crap-shoot. Most of the people I know in this situation happen to be ok with that.

As I said, I don't give a flying fuck if somebody likes Toby Keith or J-Lo or Creed. But to claim that these groups aren't in existence (or at least successful) solely because of the record industry's marketing machine is absurd. They're actors who know how to play instruments. Again, I agree with you that commercial success does not necessarily equal bad, but there sure is a whole lot of terrible crap that's commercially successful too. Finally, I'm frankly not surprised one bit that someone wouldn't listen to me when I try to tell them about a different band, or expose them to something that might be better than Toby Keith or whatever bullshit New Country band is popular now. I don't have a billion dollar marketing machine behind me to back me up like the music industry--and the RNC for that matter--do. My cousins fit into this stereotypical country fan/conservative blue collar person you describe, and I'm going to continue giving them mix cds with songs I think they should like and songs I know they do like, just as I'm going to keep talking to them about why Bush and the GOP are bastards out to screw us all. (Politely of course). I'm going to keep calling out crap for what it is, and it's not going to make me less of a liberal for doing it either.

I really hope I didn't misunderstand you--I read the post a few times and I think I get what you were saying but I apologize if I didn't. I just needed to get this off of my chest. Thanks.

[lildreamer316]

146. Generally; yes.

Again; it seems to be that most people thought I was talking mostly about the music when really I was talking about reaching the people. I am not saying that you should force yourself to listen to music you don't like.....or am I...hmm...well; sometimes something you think you are going to hate will grow on you 10 years later. I just believe an innate unwillingness to hear anything you don't like speaks to a closed mind..but that does not seem to be what you and I are talking about.

BIG misunderstanding (and this is because I was not clear; sorry) I see New Age music as the quieter side of techno (hard house; progressive house; breaks; drum and base; etc.).That (techno/dance) is the music I was speaking of in that paragraph. Personally; I wish more people would give it a chance; but that is as it is.

Commercialism is as it does.....I really do agree with most of your thoughts on that; it just seems that a commercial artist can put something out that actually does have some value and many people will dismiss it SOLELY because of who it came from--not taking into account that said artist may have actually (gasp!) learned something! These commercial artists are people too..they are here on earth to learn. Why deny them the opportunity to grow? Of course 9 times out of 10 they will take the easy road out and put out some drivel....but if you don't listen then you'll never know. But; I am losing sight of my original point in the OP. The main gist was that we as a Dem/Liberal movement need to try to understand those that some here tend to lump together as country listeners and equate them with "rednecks" or etc. if we want to get through to them POLITICALLY; Attacking their music choice does us no good.

[jane_pippin]

151. I get that you were talking about people but

what I'm telling you is that I'm perfectly capable of liking people, being friendly and nonjudgmental toward people I don't agree with, while also finding their taste in music completely terrible. I would hope they'd do the same for me. As in "I can't stand that noisy crap Jane likes, but she's still my friend."

"I am not saying that you should force yourself to listen to music you don't like.....or am I...hmm...well;"

Well? Are you or not? Yes sometimes something I didn't like will grow on me in time. I used to dislike Bob Dylan. Now I frickin' LOVE him. But there's no way I will ever in a billion years utter the phrase "You know, that one Creed record is kinda good! They really do rock!" or "You know what I could go for? Some noodley 20 minute Blues Traveler live jams! Honey, toss me a Snapple and crank it up to eleven! We're gonna have some fun tonight!" Now. Just because I won't ever say that doesn't mean I think good decent people who would say that are bad, or less than me. That would be pretty stupid of me, don't you think?

Sorry I misunderstood which techno/house music style you were talking about. I'd still want stick pins shoved in my ears though. It's just not my thing, though I know there is great music out there in the genre. As far as commercially successful bands having a good tune here or there--you know, more power to them. Good for them. I highly doubt one good song would be enough to win me over to say, Creed, because yes, I think they're awful and I'd rather spend my time listening to one not-so-good song by someone who I mostly like than listen to the one mythical "good" Creed song just because they managed to squeeze out something that isn't totally puke-inducing for once.

"The main gist was that we as a Dem/Liberal movement need to try to understand those that some here tend to lump together as country listeners and equate them with "rednecks" or etc. if we want to get through to them POLITICALLY; Attacking their music choice does us no good. "

Yeah, I get what you mean. I still think that as people we can function on a few levels when we think of each other though. I can hate that people are marketed absolute shit for country music (or any other music for that matter). I can hate the fact that they buy it and eat it up. I can hate the alleged musicians who make it. I can make fun of the "Are you ready for some FOOT BALL" jingle and the fact that people asked if it was available to buy on CD. I can do all of that and still talk to the people who like it and, as in the case of the cousins I mentioned earlier, love the people who love it. Hell, my cousins make fun of the football song with me. People can like whatever they want to--I don't care. But just because somebody likes something it doesn't mean it's all of a sudden sacred and nobody else can make fun of it or dislike it or notice patterns among people who buy it and say "my, isn't that interesting." (Which again, goes for all genres, not just country.) And, if I was going to try to get through to people politically, I'd hope that music would have little or nothing to do with it. AND if my not liking their music is what is going to turn someone away from the Democratic party, then something is wrong with their noggins and self-esteem. (Or, more likely, if my not liking their music is going to turn them away from the Dems, it's probably because Rush or Sean told them that's how it should be.)

Sorry for being so long-winded again. I hope this made sense, and if not, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree a bit. (Though I think we agree more than it may seem).

[KG]

143. wtf does musical tatse have to do with attracting votes to the dem party?

i mean :wtf: ?????

[Gormy Cuss]

149. Lou Rawls has died.

Was his fan base the kind liberals understand, or were they more in the conservative camp?

My question is as ridiculous as the notion that we as liberals can't attract blue collar voters because we turn down our noses at 'their' music, whatever the hell that it.

There are some idjits who get caught up in the NASCAR/country redneck labeling baloney but from my anecdotal observation it's mostly conservative blowhards who are in to that sort of categorization of liberals. Very few liberals write off people based on their tastes in music.

[Taverner]

150. I like country

Although I prefer the traditional stuff (Hank Sr, Patsy Cline) and the stuff that follows in that tradition (Dwight Yokham, Hank III)

[Midlodemocrat]

153. Locking

Once again, I offer for your listening pleasure.



Thank you
DU Moderator