Why don't "unattractive" men get a clue?

[KitchenWitch]

:popcorn:

[Heidi]

1. What do you mean by "unattractive"?

:popcorn:

[KitchenWitch]

4. LOL

copycat!

:popcorn:

[Heidi]

6. If I copycatted anyone, it was myself.

Everybody's saying "unattractive men" today, but not a single person has given a decent definition of "unattractive," which I believe encompasses a _lot_ more than physical appearance. :popcorn:

[liontamer]

25. maybe I should have said undesirable instead

:)

I'm just tired of people acting as if the fact that they're having trouble meeting people is proof that the opposite sex is fundamentally flawed. If someone isn't attracted to me, I don't assume that there must be something wrong with them. I just figure, different strokes for different folks.

And it's not just online either. I can't tell you how many times I've turned down the offer to dance/have a drink bought by a stranger, only to get the response"why not?"

I mean "why not?" If after exchanging two sentences with someone i've already decided I don't want things to go any further do they really need to know why?? I'm tempted to just tell the truth:
well I don't think you're cute, and I don't like your voice, or the way you approached me or some other aspect of your presentation and I've decided I don't want to waste another moment of my time with you.:eyes:

[Heidi]

26. I didn't take it that way, liontamer.

When today's first sad post from a DUer about his lonely situation came up, I didn't take it as a slam against women. Rather, I thought he was genuinely seeking advice and support.

Like I said in another post, there are hundreds of thousands of unattached folks in the US. Having 10 or 20 or even 100 people treat us as "unattractive" in the course of adulthood doesn't make "unattractive" a fact. Given the number of unattached peers in our country, 10 or 20 or even 100 "I hate yous" could be considered a character endorsement, rather than a diss. :shrug:

[liontamer]

30. delete dupe

and while some people are sincere a lot of people are really angry and misogynistic. Some of them even get locked. A couple of weeks ago someone posted that women should try to be more like pets.

I honestly feel like a lot of men(hopefully not most) feel that women "owe" them more. And the fact that women aren't jumping them in streets (which one poster said women were somehow to dumb to realize what a good idea that was) is seen as proof that all women are emotionally screwed up and don't know a good thing when they see it.

There seems to be a complete lack of respect for a woman's ability to make a choice and I find it rather frightening.

[liontamer]

31. the problem is that we get these posts often

and while some people are sincere a lot of people are really angry and misogynistic. Some of them even get locked. A couple of weeks ago someone posted that women should try to be more like pets.

I honestly feel like a lot of men(hopefully not most) feel that women "owe" them more. And the fact that women aren't jumping them in streets (which one poster said women were somehow to dumb to realize what a good idea that was) is seen as proof that all women are emotionally screwed up and don't know a good thing when they see it.

There seems to be a complete lack of respect for a woman's ability to make a choice and I find it rather frightening.

[Heidi]

32. Yeah, but we get similar posts from women . . .

who come here for support and guidance when they feel they've been ignored by guys, too, or their SOs have left them without financial support, transportation, etc. I feel there are lots of people of both genders who believe the opposite sex "owes" them something, and that anyone who doesn't honor that is out of step or emotionally screwed up.

No disrespect to you, liontamer, because I understand where you're coming from. I was raised to be my own Prince Charming, and my husband was raised to be his own "Cinderella," as well. I'd rather be a choice than a need _any day of the week_.

Thank you for your insights, and my apologies if I seem contankerous. That's not my intent at all. :pals:

[CAcyclist]

34. Right on.

I totally agree with you. I've had my share of men rejecting me, so I get annoyed when I turn a guy down and he starts doing the guilt trip thing. Sorry, I don't exist to please whatever guy off the street decides he fancies me.

On the other hand, I was at a comedy club/ laundromat in SF last night and this cute guy exchanged glances with me a couple times so I'm in alt. I can't wait until next Thursday to see if he's there again.

[Misunderestimator]

61. A guy once said to me "My mom would love for me to marry a girl like you."

I said "Then I hope you find one," very politely. I had just met the guy... I suppose he expected me to fall at his feet weeping in gratitude for his attention given his nastiness to me for the next few months that I had to endure his presence. :eyes:

[CAcyclist]

62. Good comeback

The ones that mention marriage after first meeting you are the worst, even if said in a joking manner. That's a huge red flag for me anyway.

Hello, I'm more than the hair and teeth you can see. I'm actually a very complicated person and people that make snap judgments about me and who I am on first meeting me usually don't last as lovers.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

87. his mom would like him to marry a lesbian?

thats cute!

[Misunderestimator]

88. Indeed!

Crazy thing to want for your son, eh? :rofl:

:hi: :D

[Misunderestimator]

2. Men suck.

:popcorn:

[Heidi]

8. That's only true of the desirable ones.

:blush:

[Misunderestimator]

10. LOL!

:rofl:

[Heidi]

24. Stop LOLing

while I'm blushing! I'm a redhead. Our ears get rillyrillyrilly hot and red when we're blushing, dontchaknow. :blush: It makes us rather unattractive, I'm told. ( :eyes: )

[RevCheesehead]

11. hey!

I was gonna say that!! :banghead:

[Heidi]

13. Bad girls think alike.

:thumbsup:

[RevCheesehead]

15. Hooray!!

:bounce: I made it into the Bad Girl club!! :bounce:

[Heidi]

20. NEWSFLASH!

You, like all the other clergy I've ever respected and whose company I've enjoyed, FOUNDED that club. :thumbsup:

[RetroLounge]

41. You call?

:rofl:

RL

[RevCheesehead]

49. Well, not necessarily person-to-person,

but you'll do in a pinch. :loveya:

[Deja Q]

33. You got that right!

:7

[xmas74]

64. You find one that does that, you keep him around.

They are few and far between.

[DanCa]

14. Dont judge us by our worst examples :D

[Misunderestimator]

16. I don't date nice guys.

nor any other sort... :rofl:


Donald Rumsfeld is giving the president his daily briefing. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed."

"OH NO!" the President exclaims. "That's terrible!"

His staff sits stunned at this display of emotion, nervously watching as the President sits, head in hands.

Finally, the President looks up and asks, "How many is a brazillion?"

[WCGreen]

51. Sign me up!!!!

[Maestro]

58. But you like me, right?

:shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

59. Did I say sucking was bad?

:shrug:

You know I like you :pals:

[Maestro]

60. Did you say sucking was bad? That is funny.

:rofl:

[TK421]

3. Yeah....popcorn

:popcorn:

[Wapsie B]

5. Cool.

Two hot threads so early in the day.


:popcorn:

[DS1]

7. Why don't big fat bitches just stop eating?

:popcorn:

[RPM]

63. you're an asshole

I like that!!!! hee hee hee :toast:

[ComerPerro]

83. LMAO

[RevCheesehead]

9. because they're enamored with the brazillion joke?

:shrug:

Unattractive, to me, is not about physical beauty.

[ghostsofgiants]

19. Well I know I am

[Dangerously Amused]

21. You're enamored with the brazillion joke?

What are you, some kinda NUT?!

[ghostsofgiants]

23. Apparently

I love it haha (as well as the reaction it elicits from others, haha, gold).

[Schema Thing]

12. Curcumcision IS attractive, dammit!

:popcorn:

[DanCa]

17. Howabout us shakey men do we need to get a clue :D

It's the tremors chicks dig the tremors.

[Heidi]

29. We Nighthawks chicks dig your heart and mind, DanCa.

:hug: :loveya:

And we'll spank ya, tremors or not. SeattleGirl is an equal opportunity spanker, I've heard. :evilgrin:

[MrSlayer]

18. Good question.

Hey ugly guys, get a fucking clue.

[hfojvt]

22. I have several clues

If you forget you are unattractive, someone will quickly remind you.

"Hello, my name is John Merrick, I am very pleased to meet you."

[Heidi]

27. You think it's all about physical presence?

I'd really like to know, hfojvt. The reason I'd like to know is that every man I've ever dated, and the man I married, has these wounds from having been spurned as "unattractive" by women. Yet, all of these men had wonderful intellectual spark, treated others with compassion and equanimity, and had a beautiful inner life.

[hfojvt]

38. for me there are several factors

First, I am outrageously thin. This, apparently, is not an attractive look on a man, nor was there anything my years of over-eating and weight lifting could do about it. Second, I have always been a lone wolf who did not socialize comfortably, perhaps mild Aspergers. My brother, OTOH, is a master charmer, and although he looked alot like me, never had that much trouble, and still does not. Third, I do not fit in my socio-economic class. I am a college educated person in the lower class. I do not have the mannerisms of a lower class man, and so do not fit with lower class women. OTOH, I do not have the income or career status that most middle or upper class woman require. Does a teacher or professional woman want to date a janitor or factory worker, even one with an MA? I highly doubt it.

[xmas74]

66. Where are men like you at?

Not in my neck of the woods.

[CAcyclist]

67. Many women have learned not to be taken in charmers

And take a look around - lots of really skinny guys are happily married. I happen to really like the skinny look.

My advice to you would be to introduce yourself to a woman who's also a loner or wallflower. She's much more likely to understand if you are awkward or act shy. That can be quite charming in itself. When you do decide to introduse yourself, give her a chance to return a look you glance in her direction first. If she avoids your glances, then skip her and try someone else.

Don't worry about status or upper or lower class - you're not looking to get married tomorrow, you're looking for a date. One step at a time.

Finally, don't tell yourself negatives - negatives are self-defeating.

[Heidi]

70. Thank you for that explanation, hfojvt.

I don't think any of those factors would automatically make a man unattractive. I've dated heavy guys, exceptionally thin guys, medium guys, bald, hairy and in-between, men of various colors, religions, nationalities and educational income levels. What they had in common, however, is that they were loving, compassionate and intelligent. :shrug:

[hfojvt]

72. those are hard to quantify

Also, how do you know about those characteristics until you have gone out a few times, unless you are dating people that you work with? I probably do not come across as loving, compassionate and intelligent as I do bizarre, awkward, and disheveled and that spells BAD. 10 of the 16 women I asked out in the 1990s, declined the offer. My first date I think went out with me to make her boyfriend jealous because she ended up with another boyfriend about a week after our date. That hurt bad, because I thought, okay wrongly assumed, that getting a date meant that I had a girlfriend, a feat I have never been able to manage. Anyway I was 0 for 3 from 1998 to 2001 which was not nearly as bad as my job application ratio which was about 0 for 20. Since then, after another move, there has been a paucity of single women in my environment. I have not asked anyone out since Valentine's day 2003, but it ends up being an exercise in rejection anyway so what am I missing?

[Heidi]

73. How I often learn about other people

is by observing how they treat others. (I haven't dated business colleagues since I was in my early 20s and became a "boss" . . . too much potential for harm when mixing personal and business matters.)

If you're an intelligent man who treats others with genuine (not just for show) love and compassion, a woman whose company is worth having is eventually going to notice. (I'm assuming that your "bizarre, awkward and disheveled" appearance doesn't mean "unclean.")

An example: One of the most meaningful relationships of my life was with a mid-40s-aged attorney who had absolutely no perception of fashion and/or color-coordination. But I had the good fortunate to observe him doing good things for literally hundreds of people for very little return before we ever began "dating." He was, and is, an extraordinary human being in all of the important ways.

Sometimes, what we perceive as "BAD," others perceive as "interesting." I'm not blowin' smoke up your butt, I promise.

Edit to add: There's a line from a Leonard Cohen song that says all this much more eloquently than I have. That line is, "Let me see your beauty when the witnesses are gone."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

86. One of the men I was most attracted to in my life was

extremely thin, had never finished college, and was supporting himself at poverty level as a free-lance musician. Unfortunately for me, he was gay, but if he hadn't been, I would have been more than willing to take up with him, because I just loved the way his mind worked.

[leftofthedial]

28. because you gorgeous broads are just so overpoweringly alluring

damn you

[Ellen Forradalom]

37. Correct Answer!

LOL

[khashka]

35. Because even us ugly dudes live in hope?

Ah, hell. The pathetic thing doesn't work any better than the coming on to strong thing. Damn.

You know, if you girls would give us a clue... we might all be better off :)

Khash.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. Be friendly to everyone, male and female, whether you want to date them

or not.

[RevCheesehead]

39. Here's what I'd like the "good guys" to know:

(I posted this on another thread, but I think it belongs here.)

Neediness, whining, and self-loathing are a real turn-off.
It tells me "this guy is going to be high-maintenance," and I just don't have the energy or desire to lift him out of that.

Don't tell me "I can't get a date," or "No woman wants me."
My first question would be "why are you telling me this?" followed by "what am I? Chopped liver?" If you then ask me out, I'll know that I wasn't on your "A" list, and you had to settle for me. No woman ever wants to know she wasn't your first choice.

(And yes, I can tell the difference when someone is kidding, vs. someone with real self-esteem issues.)

And that's all I'm going to say about that. (maybe)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Preach it, sister!

:-)

If there's anything I can't stand, it's the "whipped puppy look," the guy who approaches me with the "Oh, I'll just curl up and die if you reject me" look in his eyes. It almost ensures that I'll reject him, because that whipped puppy look tells me that he needs therapy more than he needs a ladyfriend.

[RevCheesehead]

42. Tell me about it.

"that whipped puppy look tells me that he needs therapy more than he needs a ladyfriend." :thumbsup:

I don't know if it's the job, or just my personality, but I'm a magnet for the overly-needy. I need to get away from that stuff, and certainly don't want to come home to it (believe me, I know many clergy who do just that, and they have my pity).

And it's not just the guys, or those looking for relationships. I remember when one woman told me she was so glad God sent me into her life. When I asked why, she said, "because you are so strong, and I need that." I told her she had to build her own muscles, and not use mine.
Scared the shit out of me, that did. :scared:

[chknltl]

68. Here is a strong lady...

I know it's a little off topic RevCheeshead, If she were here in the DU right now she would be all over this very thread. I went out with her a couple of times. I could have pursued a relationship with her but that would never have been fair to her or I in the end. I'll not deny her beauty, both inner and outer. Last I heard she was still single, I hope she is doing fine. Check her out:
http://www.toddscostumes.com/Xena%20Fans/naomi_beebe.htm

c

[GrpCaptMandrake]

71. "I'm a magnet for the overly-needy."

Lotsa guys go down that road, too. It usually begins with "I really think of you as a friend . . ."

[Oeditpus Rex]

43. *Now* you tell me

Okay, I've got some major adjustments to make. I shall be incognito for... well, years, maybe.

:hide:

[RevCheesehead]

44. YOU - -

are perfectly fine, just the way you are.

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/hg/timgrail.wav

:loveya:

[Oeditpus Rex]

46. I seek not the Grail

Just a bit of peril.

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/hg/spank.wav

:evilgrin:

[RevCheesehead]

48. Do we really need "others" for that?

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/lb/cheese.wav

[Oeditpus Rex]

50. Now you're mixing movies!

That's goin' to cause a bit of conFUSion.

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/lb/hearthis.wav

[RevCheesehead]

52. I think that mixing things up a bit can be exciting.

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/lb/sexsex.wav
http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/ml/ping.wav

[Oeditpus Rex]

53. Well, then... it looks like

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/ml/clitoris.wav

[RevCheesehead]

54. YES!

:woohoo:
http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/lb/wolfnipl.wav :bounce::bounce:

[ComerPerro]

84. Self-Loathing is a turn-off? What about self-indifference?

Like, "I really don't give a shit".

I'm not arrogant, but at the same time I'm not self-loathing.

[RevCheesehead]

90. No, that's actually a turn-on.

It tells me that your world is bigger than you. And that's good. :)

[Dukkha]

45. I got your clue right here

[Guy Fawkes]

47. I'm not very good at puzzle games...

can you give me *a few* clues? Perhaps a walkthrough?

[Strong Atheist]

55. .

:evilfrown:

[Dave Reynolds]

56. Because not only am I unattractive,

I'm dumb as a fucking stump, too.:hi:

[Fountain79]

57. Because...

We are hoping to strike gold with a beautiful woman with ridiculously low standards...

[CAcyclist]

65. Bingo!

:hi:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

69. That's my philosophy.

:)

[MrScorpio]

74. I've had my share of turn downs by women, no biggy

I've never held it against them. Why bother?

I guess I wasn't what they were looking for.

But there was one thing that I noticed; after I got married, I suddenly became a hot commodity.

Sorry, ladies, too late.

That shit still freaks me out.

[billyskank]

75. 'Cause we were hit with the ugly stick

:)

[Robeson]

76. If they had millions of dollars, they'd have clues all over the place....

...with protruding breasts....In other words, Money = Bimbos....

:popcorn:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

77. Because, thank god, some women

are into "hideous!"

And we thank our lucky stars, every day!

[Heidi]

78. Isn't it more likely

that some of us are into kind, intelligent and funny? :shrug:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

79. Perhaps

But you still have to get past the initial double-take. Sometimes this helps: :beer: :evilgrin:

And besides, CMW don't count for hideous.

[Heidi]

81. You're right. He's not hideous.

He's among the smartest, kindest and funniest people I've ever known, and these are the qualities that initially attracted me to him. Ask him. He'll tell ya. :)

[RevCheesehead]

82. What an adorable photo!

I haven't seen this one before. Beautiful couple!! :loveya:

[gmoney]

80. Because most of us are pretty stupid, too.

"Fat, dumb and stupid is no way to go through life." --Dean Wormer

[BreweryYardRat]

85. Some of us have a clue...

...we're just having trouble putting it into practice. Bloody damn all-you-can-eat college cafeterias...

[NNadir]

89. Speaking as an unattractive man, one of the things that makes us...

...unattractive is that we're clueless.

All we ask is that people accept us for what we are.