Should card counters be banned from casinos?

[Shell Beau]

I don't think they should. First, they are doing nothing illegal. They aren't cheating. They use no devices such as computers. The only thing they use is their brains. Casino's make such a profit. To me, it just goes to show that they are there to take our money. Which I think we all know anyway, but if you are smart enough to be able to do it, then you should be able to, IMO. Not only do they ban them, they send their photo to all big time casinos trying to keep them out of all of them. Discuss.

[kick-ass-bob]

1. it destroys the random chance factor.

What I don't get is why the casinos don't just reshuffle after every hand.

Seems like a pretty low tech solution to the problem.

[dr.strangelove]

4. I never thought of that

There must be a decrease in odds favoring the house or else they would have done this some time ago. Good idea. I'll have to think about the odds and whether this would work.

[ProfessorGAC]

81. It Depends On What You Mean

If they rehsuffle the ENTIRE deck(s) including adding back the just used cards, the probabilities of blackjack and 21 go DOWN! That's good for the casino. So reshuffling the whole set of cards (no matter how many decks) is bad for them.

Now, as to card counters reducing the randomness, that's simply not true. Without getting into a ridiculous level of technical detail, card playing isn't random anyway, it's pseudorandom, and people counting cards does not dilute the pseudorandom character of any single other player's odds.
The Professor

[Shell Beau]

7. Not necessarily. They don't always get it right.

The casino's have a higher chance of winning (I think about 2%) and it's not like every Tom, Dick, and Harry can count cards. It is an elite few who can do it. And it is not illegal. So why are they banning? Money!!!!

[TX-RAT]

18. It is an elite few who can do it. (More than you think)

Most people count cards to some degree, since you see every card thats been played, it's not hard to at least keep up with the aces or face cards. We do it without thinking, some just do it better.


Most casino's have solved this problem by just switching to dealing out of a shoe. They use 6 decks and they never go to the bottom of shoe.

[Shell Beau]

21. But there are people out there who

work in groups. And in order to get in the group, you have to pass a very extensive and strenuous test (that can last 3 days or more and can't make more than 58 mistakes in that whole time period). They are people who can memorize and sort things very effectively in their heads. Those are the ones making $80,000.00 or more in one night. They pool all of their money together and work as a team in casinos. They are very good and are very organized. They make a lot of money in one sitting.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

29. Have you read Bringing Down the House?

Sounds like you have.

That was such a fascinating story. I wish the writing had been a little better, but the story was good enough that it kind of told itself.

[Shell Beau]

32. Actually I haven't, but I will now!!

:)

I read an article about a woman who is part of one of these groups. It was very interesting. But now I will go get that book!!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

36. Oh, sorry

It sounded like you had.

You should check it out, though, if you're interested in that sort of thing. It's a pretty fascinating story about a bunch of Asian kids from MIT who figure out how to beat Vegas at blackjack.

On edit: And it's a true story too.

[Shell Beau]

37. I have heard of a story about some college kids

who did this. I wonder if it is the same story!! Is it based on truth?

[AllegroRondo]

59. Great story

basically a team of 4-6 people goes in. They all sit at different tables and play low $ amounts, except for one guy who "floats" and plays high $ amounts. When a low dollar player has a good position going (more 10's than low cards left) he makes a signal and the high dollar player moves to that table.

Technically, its not illegal, and they made a lot of money at it.

[Shell Beau]

60. I will have to get the book!!

Using your brain to help yourself out should never be wrong!! :shrug: :)

[pitohui]

63. it's sort of a true story but don't take it too seriously

it is highly exaggerated because they hoped to get a movie deal

certainly this mit team (there are several) did not figure out how to beat vegas at blackjack, people were doing the same thing before they were born

teams winning hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars are not writing books, which pay almost nothing, to spoil the game for themselves, it's the failed or burned-out counters who are doing that, there is one grand old self-promoter of blackjack who has the media fooled into thinking he's a card-counting great who almost never puts the money out

card counting, whether team play or not, is intrinsically boring if done properly, so if you want to sell a story to hollywood you have to get sort of creative, when you stop & think abt it, there is nothing particularly dramatic abt folks going plus one every time they see a five and minus one when they see an ace (to greatly oversimplify), anyone who can add and subtract can count cards if they had the balls to put the money out in the high count but i've learned it's a rare person who actually plays to win for whatever sick psychological statement that makes abt the human race

i'm actually abt to head out there but for obvious reasons won't be offering demonstrations

[LynzM]

56. That *was* a fascinating book!

A whole subculture that I knew very little about... neat stuff. I guess I almost consider them the 'underdogs'... they're the hackers of the casino business. Find the loopholes, use your brains, and exploit them...

[TX-RAT]

39. True," BUT"

No matter how well you've memorized the cards being dealt, you have no way of determining the order they'll be dealt.

All your trying to do is determine when the deck has the highest number of high value cards, then raise you bets accordingly. Whats to keep the dealer or other players from receiving your high value cards. Now if theres only 4 people at the table, and they're all in on it, the ball shifts slightly to their court. Dealer can't catch all the good cards, but with my luck he would.

[Shell Beau]

42. Well I don't know enough about it.

I just read an article about a woman who was part of one of these card counting groups. And they ALWAYS win, unless they get caught. They are banned from all of the casinos. She said she has made over $500,000 in a couple of years. They pool all of their money together (and they have investors), so I am sure it is split someway. But the $500,000 was what she profited. So I don't know what they made as a group. She has to wear disguises every time she goes in there.

[pitohui]

64. no she doesn't always win, sounds like she is lying

it is really too bad that the poseurs make up these lies, because i think some casinos really believe them & get overly nervous, i have seen casinos ban even $5 & $25 players who couldn't play out their ass, for what, for basically being in the wrong place at the wrong time & surveillance thinks there's a whole "team" in the place because there's one counter there so everyone who said hello to that person must be a counter too, yeah right

i often wonder how much income casinos lose by backing off patrons who are not good enough to win

but in any case, no card counter wins every time they play, for mathematical reasons i don't have time to describe here, it takes abt 400 hours to get into the long run & to be certain of being ahead, indeed, the better the game, the more volatile it is, i've been down six figures before coming back up and getting ahead again, and every serious card counter who puts the money out can say the same

if the woman really wins every time she plays, she is not part of a card counting group, she is part of a cheating scheme, and there have certainly been some big ones on that scale, i wish the casinos would arrest and not merely ban the cheaters, i don't like it that they are laundering their money from a felony (cheating) by claiming they got the money from a legal activity that i've been involved in and that i know many good people still involved in

much more likely she is just another self-promoting boob, i cannot tell you how many people have sat a table and told me they were card counters and they never guessed that they were bullshitting the real thing

first rule of fight club, a real card counter is not going to give freakin interviews saying she's a card counter, that is just stupidity and can only hurt your income

you can pretty much assume that any famous card counter you've heard of on the history channel or anywhere else is a fake, well, ken uston actually did it, but ken uston was the freakin 80s for god's sake, today the reality is that those who can do and those who can't try to get a movie deal

there are hundreds of blackjack tables but there are actually limited numbers of great games being offered at any time, there is no benefit to the skilled player to encourage the general public to start chasing these games, people who can't zip the lip are not going to go too far in this business

[Shell Beau]

77. When I say she always wins, I meant that she always

walks out with a profit,not that she always beats the house. It may not be a lot sometimes, but sometimes it may be a very large amount. I have no reason to believe this woman was lying. It was an article in a magazine and she didn't give her identity for obvious reasons.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

Reshuffling takes time.

The more time per hand, the fewer number of hands that can be played, and ultimately, the fewer times the casino can take your money.

[kick-ass-bob]

54. that is probably the best/only reason.

:thumbsup:

[RPM]

71. prolly cuz their dealers are counting

two-faced shitheels.

[petronius]

75. I think shuffling every time would slow down the game,

and reduce the amount of money they could take from the 99% of players who are not experts. However, I believe there are machines that can continuously shuffle (some sort of automated shoe), which would destroy the card-counter's advantage.

[Taverner]

2. In Atlantic City, laws prevent the counters from being banned

so the casinos reshuffle every hand...

[Shell Beau]

3. But what about Vegas?

They ban them.

[Taverner]

6. Yep...and they reshuffle the deck

Just in case they don't catch them...

But remember, in Vegas the house always wins

That is a truism, and ask anyone who's worked in a casino...

[kick-ass-bob]

5. wow. smart casinos.

Seriously, why don't they? That would end the whole thing.

:shrug:

[pitohui]

65. sure they do

come on, why make stuff up if you don't know

i was just in atlantic city, they do not reshuffle every hand

[Squatch]

8. Counting cards is part of any card game.

Any card player worth his or her salt counts cards as they are played.

[Shell Beau]

9. But only a few can memorize what is out there and what

hasn't been played. The casinos want drunk people. Not smart ones.

[Taverner]

11. But the house has to always win

It's in their mission, their reason for being...

Why else do they comp you a room if you win big...they want their money...back...

[Shell Beau]

13. Sure they want their money back. But people have to

win big sometimes or else no one would go. :P

They have an avereage that they check every night. If someone won big, it will show. They will start watching that person.

[Taverner]

15. True, but after that person wins big

Their room is comped, or upgraded for free...and the casino does all it can to get the money back

[TX-RAT]

20. Not true

Are you telling me that after seeing 30 cards come out of the deck, you wouldn't at least have some recollection, as to how many aces or face cards have been played. Most people do it without even knowing their doing it.

[Shell Beau]

26. No, we all may do it to an extent, but

not to the extent in which "true" card counters do. They spend time learning this technique. And not everybody can do it effectively. These people can take home a $100,000 in one night!

[brentspeak]

38. Some casinos now use multiple decks

(talking about Blackjack, here) So even if you remember that two aces have been pulled, there would still be a lot more left.

[Shell Beau]

40. That seems like cheating to me! (not cheating, but shitty at least)

They have all of the advantage.

[pitohui]

67. people who do it w.out knowing they're doing it

we have a technical name for such, we call them losers

look, i'll be the first to admit card counting ain't rocket science, but you do have to actually count the cards

[LoZoccolo]

50. It's can be easier than you think.

There are different systems, but a lot of them only require you to keep one running number in your head. You increment it when certain low cards are played, and decrement it when tens and/or aces are played. Over time you get better and better at it, and can practice at home by running through a deck one card at a time, then in pairs, then in threes, until it becomes pretty automatic.

[GumboYaYa]

55. You don't actually memorize the cards being played...it is really

as simple as adding and subtracting the number one. Basic card counting works by adding one for every low card that gets played and subtracting one for every high card that gets played 6-9 are neutral and are assigned zero. Add upp every hand that gets dealt and keep track of the points. When you get to about ten-fifteen as the count, you have a bunch of face cards in the deck and the odds favor you over the house.

It gets more complicated than that as you progress. Good counters know where they are in the deck and the shoe. A team will work by letting a sccout play low stakes until the count gets right, then the money player sits down at the table and plays high stakes.

I have a friend who paid for MIT by being a card counter. Sometimes we sit at the casinos here in St. Louis and count out loud as the dealer watches. Even using basic counting strategies, it is easy to even up the odds on the house.

[pitohui]

66. counting cards has nothing to do w. memorizing

blackjack is not poker, you don't have to memorize anything, if you know how to add, subtract, and divide single digit numbers you can count cards, hi/lo will get the money, it paid for my house

[Shell Beau]

78. Okay, well I am telling how the woman in the article

described how she did it. She did say she assigns each card a number such as -1, +1, etc. I don't know much about it except for the few things I have read. And that is what she said she did. And she said she memorized.

[TX-RAT]

25. I've seen some that could tell you the value of the last 20 cards.

Only one hitch with card counting, you don't know what order their coming out of the deck. It could be the dealer who gets the last 2 aces, and the 5 face cards.

[PeterPuck]

62. It's all about the 10s

The player usually has the advantage when a deck is full of tens. The dealer has the advantage with a deck with fewer tens.

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. Only if they go "Ha ha ha!!" after every count and lightning and thunder

occur behind them.

That would just get annoying.

[ForrestGump]

12. No way

The house always has the advantage -- card counting just makes it closer to a 50% shot for those who are good at it. Even then, the house retains an advantage. Even very basic, unskilled 'card counting' (keeping more-or-less track of face cards and 10s when not using a multi-deck machine for blackjack) can give you an edge, but the casino still has the odds on their side. Banning card-counters is unfair, to my mind -- the casinos are greedy crybabies, in that respect. And I say that as one who's trained as a dealer and worked in the industry here in Vegas.

Vegas wouldn't exist, and the power bills wouldn't get paid, if the house didn't always win in the end. Don't ever come to a casino expecting to do anything but lose your money -- if that turns you on, and you have fun doing it, fine. Just be careful.

[Shell Beau]

14. I play slot machines. I have won a little. But

I am certainly not a high roller. I play quarter slots. I always expect to lose. If I don't, then yippee! But I never expect to win! Never!

[seemunkee]

24. Try video poker

Better odds and some machines have over 100% payout. Go for a nickel machine and play max bet to get the best paybacks. Unfortunately you can't get the same odds in Atlantic City that you can in Vegas.

[Shell Beau]

27. I have tried nickel machines.

My mom won close to $400 on the penny slots. We have casinos here in Mississippi. So, I have been to several and have tried several games. Slots just last longer and are fun. :)

[pokerfan]

19. Card Counting does work

because BJ is one of the few games where the odds can actually favor the player at times. Bet small when the odds are in the house's favor, bet big when they are in your favor. Of course, varying your bets is the first tip off that you are counting.

Google the MIT Blackjack Team if you think it doesn't work. The downside is that it requires a fucking huge bankroll (because you will still have losing streaks) and it's also really, really boring.

Now, here's something that really pisses me off: PREFERENTIAL DEALING! Seems that some casinos are teaching their dealers how to count cards and to call for a shuffle whenever the odds turn towards the players' favor. Very crooked, IMO, because it gives the house an even larger edge against even "honest" players.

I'd rather just play poker.

[SteppingRazor]

35. Better than googling, read "Bringing Down the House"

Great book about the MIT team.

[Shell Beau]

43. Someone mentioned it. I will have to read it.

[TX-RAT]

44. How are the odds truly in anyones favor.

Other than knowing that there are X-number of high value cards left in the deck, theres no-way of knowing who will receive them.

[pokerfan]

52. Wiki explains it better than I could

Unlike casino games such as roulette and craps, where the outcome of one play has no effect on any future play, a hand of blackjack depletes the deck of the cards used in that hand, and this can alter the probability of certain events occurring on the next deal. In proper statistics terms, this is known as the Law of Independent Trials - past events have no effect on future probabilities. Specifically, if the remaining cards have a higher proportion of 10-count cards and Aces than normal, it is more likely that a player will be dealt a natural, which is to the player's advantage (yes, it's also more likely for the dealer to get a natural—but the dealer wins only even money, while the player is paid 3:2). When the deck has more small cards such as 4s, 5s, and 6s, it is more likely that the player will be dealt a bad hand and bust, favoring the dealer (likewise, it increases the chance of a dealer busting as well, but when the player busts, the dealer wins even if he later busts himself).

Because the house advantage in blackjack is so small to begin with, it is quite common for a deck that happens to be "rich" in remaining 10 count cards and Aces to offer a positive expectation to the player on the next hand. By keeping track of the cards played, a player can take advantage of these situations by betting larger amounts when the deck is in his favor and smaller amounts when it is not. In the long run, the deck will be unfavorable to the player more often than it is favorable, but it is the amount bet under each condition that counts. The player can also use information about the deck's composition to alter strategy. For example, basic strategy calls for hitting a 16 when the dealer's upcard is a 10, but this is a very close play; one loses less by hitting than standing, but not by much. If it is known, however, that the deck is depleted of small cards such as 4s and 5s, and rich in 10s, that may alter the odds in favor of standing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackjack#Card_counting

[pitohui]

68. the house don't always win in the end, sorry to pee in yr cornflakes

your post don't make sense -- what is this sentence supposed to mean:
Even very basic, unskilled 'card counting' can give you an edge, but the casino still has the odds on their side

by definition, if i have the edge, i have the odds on my side, unless there is some other obscure definition of edge i'm not aware of

by counting cards i shift the odds from very roughly speaking abt 1 percent in the casino's favor to abt 1 percent in my favor

if the odds were ALWAYS in the casino's favor, why do they kick me out, why don't let me stay and play until i give it all back? could it be they have figured out that, nope, they are not going to have a long-term edge against this player?

once i was allowed to sit and play at a game, with 4 or 5 other team members, where we had a 1.67 percent advantage on a top bet of a pee-pitiful $100, we were allowed to play for 14 hrs before the game was shut down

we won $60,000, that's sixty thousand dollars

just on $100 bets!

now imagine if they'd let us put out real money

the casinos are not crybabies, they are in business to make money, if advantage players were allowed to sit and play all they wanted unmolested, well, there wouldn't be an asperger's person left on the internet, we'd all be in the casino raking in millions

blackjack was a game invented and popularized by mistake, before they realized that the odds were NOT always in the casino's favor, that is the great beauty of the game

much as i would like to be the next bill gates, i accept that they are justified in banning players to protect their income

[JVS]

16. I thought that Casinos reserved the right to eject patrons at will

[Shell Beau]

17. Yes, they do I believe.

But that isn't really my point. Not only are these people getting ejected, but they are getting banned from other casinos they have never even been to.

[Initech]

22. They pretty much are!

I mean really, you cant even do math in your head in a casino anymore without guards dragging you out by force and leaving you in the middle of the desert outside of Las Vegas.

[Shell Beau]

23. I think it is bullshit. If they have the advantage

(and we all know they do) then what's it going to hurt them if some are really good at counting and memorizing the cards. They will still make lots of profit off everyone else. And it is legal what these counters are doing.

[pitohui]

70. i have never been left in the desert outside las vegas

:-)

heh heh heh

casinos do participate in little faxing parties, but hell most of them can't even remember everybody they've banned themselves much less a face on a fax

[Wapsie B]

28. Well, what would Sonny Corleone, err I mean James Caan do?

>

[Shell Beau]

30. He'd kick my butt out pretty damn fast!

I like that show even though I don't watch it regularly.

[Wapsie B]

34. Yeah he'd take 'em out for a ride

in the desert.

[SteppingRazor]

31. Of course they should -- if they're caught

Like any other business, a casino has the right to refuse service to anyone. It's not a public area. They can ick you out for not wearing a shirt (also not a crime), so they can certainly kick you out for counting cards as well.

That said, card counters who are dumb enough to get caught deserve to be booted, anyway.

[Shell Beau]

33. Well, it's not that cut and dry.

They send their photos and profiles to casinos all over and they are banned before even walking through the doors. Do you think that is fair?

[SteppingRazor]

41. Fair? No. Legal? Absolutely.

A lot of pawn shop/check cashing places do it with check kiters.

[Shell Beau]

45. I don't know what a check kiter is. But, I

don't think it should be legal to ban someone who isn't a criminal or anything from somewhere they have never even been. JMO!! :)

[TX-RAT]

46. What we think doesn't matter, it's their casino.

[Shell Beau]

48. Well, we put our money in it!

We are the reason there is a casino, so what we think absolutely should matter.

[pitohui]

72. it's not so big a deal as you think

it was prob. a bigger issue in the days when vegas and northern nevada were the only places to get a game

now when one town is too hot, you just go somewhere else, and after awhile you can go back

if you have ever seen any of the griffin books, for one example, they are huge, and some of the people described and photographed in the book have been dead for a decade or two, also plenty of the information is quite inaccurate

although i liked the fax that put me as ten years younger (a friend in surveillance mailed me a copy)

i would prefer to be allowed to sit in the wynn and play until i've won all their money & only then get up and trouble myself to go to another casino or another town but this is not realistic, if you had a business and a customer was consistently costing you money, you would no longer do business with that customer, correct?

[Shell Beau]

79. Again I am just telling you what I have read and seen.

They do send photos of the people to other casinos and they do keep their eyes out for certain players. That is fact. Maybe for some people, they aren't that concerned (like maybe you :shrug:) But someone who walks out of the casino with $100,000 or more, they will be watching.

[pitohui]

74. you don't know how to count cards obviously

it is impossible not to be caught if you are actually putting the money out in the high counts

it does no good to know the true count in your head, you don't win by magic, you have to actually put the money out

sooner or later, even the dimmest surveillance team or their computer program is going to catch on that i am only putting out the $3K bets in the high counts

we have a name for the counters who never get backed off, they are losers

counters who are afraid of back-offs can't win, they have backed themselves off the game in advance by refusing to bet sufficient $$$ when they have the edge

every counter who has won significant $$$ has many, many, many back-offs, it's just part of the deal

whenever we had a counter who never got backed off, it was a bad sign that he wasn't betting enough in the high counts, these players never worked out to be long-term winners for the team, they were just bums who wanted to use the team bankroll to get churn $$$ and get comps

[SteppingRazor]

76. No, you obviously don't know how to avoid getting caught...

One very simple example --

Card counter -- dressed in typical tourist clothes -- bets small amounts throughout the evening. Signals at a high count. His partner -- dressed in, say, an expensive suit, a bolo tie, and a cowboy hat -- sits down at the table and bets HUGE amounts. This way, no one ever varies between small and large bets.

That's one of the more simple ways. They can get a lot more complex.

Don't tell me I don't know card counting, fish :evilgrin:

[LoZoccolo]

47. No, because I'd like to win more money.

You might think this is a one-sided view, but it's no worse than the alternative: to let the casinos ban the card counters...because they want to win more money! Either way someone is acting in their self-interest.

[Shell Beau]

49. Absolutely! But they will win more money either way.

There are several other games there that bring in lots of money for the casinos.

[tjwash]

51. Blackjack players that count cards are banned from casinos.

First of all, counting cards is not cheating, it's what good card players do, it's knowing the odds for or against you at all times.

There is no law against counting, but if they think you are counting cards, you are gone. Casinos are like restaurants, they can reserve the right to refuse service to anyone they wish. So, god forbid, you are a good card player that can actually WIN a casino's money constantly, they will show you the door fast, and put the word out to the other casinos in town.

That's why I hate casinos.

[noonwitch]

53. It's the owner's establishment, and if the rules are posted....

Some people still have a gift for it. My dad can count cards without realizing he's doing it. He's just lucky that way. He says the only place he can win is Vegas, because everyone else rigs the card games completely, especially Indian casinos.

I have no clue. The Lottery is about as close to gambling as I get. If I had $20 to spend, I'd buy a book or give it to charity. If I had thousands to spare, I'd pay off my house/car loan.

[pitohui]

73. your dad is a poseur

more cornflakes peeing but some of the best games i've played have been on the reservations, it's a bit racist to assume that all natives cheat, they do have gaming commissions you know!

anybody who thinks they can count cards without realizing they're doing it is not counting cards and that is the real reason why he's a loser

[Shell Beau]

80. Your posts are coming across pretty arrogant.

Just thought I'd let you know.

[barb162]

57. No, and I wish I could card count well

[Shell Beau]

58. That makes two of us!!

:)

[barb162]

61. I knew a guy who could do it. He was a champion bridge player

(a grand master I believe)and also had a bachelor's in math. He could remember all the cards at a table and how they were played from 5 years ago.

[Blue-Jay]

69. Would you ban a basketball player who can dunk on you?

Card counters who can win without the aid of calculating devices are not breaking any laws. It's a skill that most people don't have. It's no different than people who can instantly calculate the odds of having a winning hand at poker. They might lose a few, but they'll come out ahead in the end.Unaided card-counting is not illegal.

[mongo]

82. Casinos are private property

and they have the right to refuse service to anyone they chose.