For Men: Whom here is mystified/disgusted by machismo?

[DerekG]

I don't think this is necessarily a liberal vs. conservative issue (although the Right does attract a good share of alpha-males). But hopefully I'll have the ear of somebody out there.

As a male of twenty three years, I've gotta say: I never understood machismo. When I was in public school, I couldn't fathom why a group of men would place emotional investment in a football (it was funny when one would get hurt, though); and I was usually one of three guys in P.E. who didn't try to perform well for the visiting military-instructor. In college, I just couldn't get why cars were extolled (they get ya from point A to B); nor did I ever feel the desire to hoot or whistle or drool when an attractive woman walked by (try internalizing once and a while).

I think George Carlin is right: promise a guy an electrical appliance, and they'll do anything.

Anyone else baffled?

(Note: Lest anyone think my aim is to initiate a gender war, rest easy; I can't venerate anyone who swoons over sparkly rocks, either.)

[fishnfla]

1. with all due respect

what the hell are you talking about?

[DerekG]

4. It's about the proclivities of considerable numbers of men

Nothing profound here--just a lounge rant about guy shit I don't understand.

[supernova]

2. Maybe it's more public displays of machismo

that irritate you? That's what your examples are about.

[Robb]

3. What a wuss

:D
:yoiks:

[alarcojon]

5. It's a pressure on how men are supposed to behave

and you can choose to opt out of some or even most it. Most men don't ever think about how constricting it can be to be an alpha male - you HAVE to watch football, you HAVE to "be in charge," you HAVE to ogle women openly, you CAN'T ever cry, etc. It is much more liberating to be able to do what you want, what feels right for you - not what other men think you should be doing.

[Wcross]

19. "you HAVE to watch football"

I have always had trouble with that one. In what way does watching football make you macho? The way you get up and yell when someone else does something? Wouldn't watching "ultimate fighting" make you even more macho? How about watching a hunting show, does that make you a hunter or are you still just a couch potato?

[alarcojon]

32. Are you suggesting football isn't a macho sport?

It's certainly very physical, only occasionally played by females, etc.

I'm not suggesting that watching football automatically "makes you macho" - but it certainly trends that way. Football was one of the activities the OP suggested that he didn't "get," and I tend to agree with him.

I'm not saying that watching football is a bad thing, only that many men put pressure (subtle or otherwise) on other men to follow it. Also, when you get groups of men watching football, often other macho rituals take place, such as drinking heavily, heavy wagering, or commenting on the physical attributes of the cheerleaders or the women in the types of commercials that tend to air during football games.

Sure, there is a scale of machismo, where ultimate fighting would rank above football, which in turn would rank above, say basketball, etc. In that sense ultimate fighting fans are more macho than football fans, but that was not really my point.

[Wcross]

34. How can watching anything define what you are?

My point was that watching something macho doesn't somehow inject it into the viewer. Will watching a cooking show make me a chef?
Sitting on your ass watching someone else do something is hardly macho.

[Oeditpus Rex]

35. If the sports networks were really in tune

with the "you are what you watch" thing, they'd show rugby and Australian football. Now, those blokes are tough.

[Wcross]

38. "with the "you are what you watch" thing,"

I guess I would go for Porn 24/7. I don't want to be macho, just a porn star!

[ghostsofgiants]

6. Never have understood any of that...

Never will.

[fudge stripe cookays]

7. Grammar Nazi here....

That would actually be ' "Who" here is disgusted....'

Sorry. Subject, nominative case. I do this for a living.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[DanCa]

8. Actually i never id'd with the tough guy.

I was always the richie cunningham, corey mathews, clark kent type of guy than the type a type. I dont know why. Being macho or tough never appealed to me thats not saying i didnt knew how to to take care of myself if the situation arrised i just never went out of the to prove myself to anyone. I guess you can say my motto is speak softly and carry a big stick.

[Rob H.]

9. I don't get it, either

I was a Navy brat growing up and spent most of my life (the earliest parts I can remember, anyway) overseas until the summer right before my 14th birthday. Some of the places we lived didn't have English-language TV and we typically didn't live on base since my parents wanted to get the full flavor of living in a foreign country. I didn't see football on TV often and when I did, I just thought, "Wow, this is really boring to watch." I have friends who are sports nuts, but I don't even pretend to know what they're talking about when they talk about that stuff. It just doesn't interest me.

I also don't get the whole giant rims, huge tailpipe, lowered suspension, ground effects, oversize spoiler thing about cars lately, either. There's obviously a market for it, but I always think about how much money all that stuff costs and that the giant tailpipe, in particular, makes every compact car I've heard one on sound like a hopped-up riding lawnmower. I just want my car to get me where I'm going as reliably as possible and that's enough.

Nothing wrong with 'em, though. Just different strokes, is all. I'd rather do things I enjoy because I enjoy them rather than do things I'm "supposed" to like doing. :)


Edited to add: I'm 37--after re-reading what I posted I realized that maybe I'm a little bit closer to "Hey, you kids get offa my lawn!"-dom than I thought. ;)

[begin_within]

10. It's all an act. All men are secretly crybabies inside. They don't show it

[johnnie]

16. That's bullshit!!!

Now see what you made me do? :cry:

[begin_within]

30. LOL

[ScreamingMeemie]

11. As a woman who places an emotional investment in football....

I think people worry about the small stuff to much. I mean, what's it to you what other guys, or in my case, girls do? :hi:

[TK421]

12. Ditto on everything you said, I feel the same way

[smirkymonkey]

13. I am so happy to hear that there are men like you in the world!

I was beginning to lose hope. I don't care for displays of extreme sexual stereotypes in either men or women. What bother's me the most is that it's phony, and I hate phoniness in anybody.

[Oeditpus Rex]

14. It's simple to *understand* machismo

Popular culture encourages it in males from an early age; we start with G.I. Joe before kindergarten and by the time we're 35 we've seen approximately 87 bajillion beer commercials with chest-beating guys portrayed in a manner that says "This is how you should act if you're a Real Man."

But understanding it's one thing. Buying into it's wholly another. I guess some of us just don't have that gene — and I'm thankful for that.

I am into the car thing, though — but not in the way the OP mentioned. But I'm not about huge chrome tailpipe extensions, hot-rod "shaker" hoods, wild-assed paint schemes or stereos that thump loudly enough to register on the Richter scale. I'm into restoring classic cars to their original beauty. Yeah, cars are a conveyance, but there's also something to be said about pride in appearance, the same as the way one dresses.

If you really want to understand machismo, read "Dave Barry's Complete Guide to Guys." Hilarious — and spot on.

[LeftyMom]

18. That book is a riot

It kills me because I relate to a lot of it (I love cars, sports and home improvement projects I lack the skills to complete.)

I was raised by my Dad so guys don't really mystify me- it's women I don't understand at all. For example, what's the point of wearing makeup if the idea is to apply it so skillfully one look like they're not wearing makeup? I have no idea, but as a girl I'm supposed to get it I think. :shrug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

21. Were you born without that gene?

You're supposed to wake up every morning with your hair, makeup and nails (fingers and toes) perfect and seductive — because, golly, guys just won't love you if you're not a combination of Donna Reed, Eleanor Roosevelt and (insert current pop-culture hottie here).

And, of course, you exist solely to attract guys.

:rofl:

[LeftyMom]

25. Yep, I'm a mutant

In the morning my hair looks like I slept on it and I have pillow creases on my cheek.

The horror. :scared:

[Rabrrrrrr]

27. I love that book!

[Oeditpus Rex]

29. The bit about 'buffer urinals' is spot-on

I've never seen that fail. You can be the most non-homophobic guy on the planet, but if you go into a public restroom with three or more urinals and there's a guy at one of 'em, you're gonna use the one farthest from him — or at least put a buffer urinal between him and you.

Meanwhile, women in adjacent stalls actually talk to each other.

:shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

31. Yes - totally true!

Even if the urinals have little walls between them, one still needs a buffer urinal.

Friends and I realized this in college; I was laughing like hell later when Berry put it in his book!

[Wcross]

15. I am 43 y/o, a former Marine and I don't get it either.

Most guys are posers. If you have to act macho you probably aren't. I see some men out in public that are pathetic in their attempt to be a macho man. I don't understand it either but I do get a chuckle out of it from time to time.

[radwriter0555]

17. Actually, offer them mechanical devices or sex and they'll do anything....

And bless their hearts for it.

I'm not baffled. Reduced EVERY action made by a male to sex and they're remarkably easy to understand, and in great humor, appreciate.

The dude worship thing isn't my bag.

[bbernardini]

20. I completely agree with all of your statements.

I'm one of the few guys I know who has absolutely no clue about sports, and I don't give a crap about that fact. I admire a nice-looking car, but I haven't a clue about makes/models/etc.

Me? I'm into music and the Internets.

[Tsiyu]

22. There are just some men who think they are the SUPREME

men of the universe.

Some are sure that they can kick anyone's ass, blow the biggest farts, eat the most wings at Hooter's.

Others step all over the faces of others while wearing well-tailored suits to have the most $$$$$ when they croak.

And then there are the dudes with the Religio-Machismo effect. This type believes by virtue of his external gonads, he can rape, abuse, oppress, murder any woman at any time because she has internal gonads and Gawd sez so.

Why they must feel superior to others I will never understand. I hate what they do to other people and to the planet. But they are easy to make fun of and that's how I cope.

[Wapsie B]

23. I'm not.

As a resident pop-psychologist here open displays of machismo are a way for some to beat their chests as it were, a way to get attention and a form of bonding. And it does get some of them laid;sometimes.

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. There is one kind of machismo that creases me up (in UK

parlance, "makes me laugh", not "cry"), it's so brilliant. It is that "talk quietly and carry a big stick" type. But, of course, it is not at all of the bonding, still less the posturing or show-off kind. It's the difference between acting and being; between peer-pressure herd instinct and being your own man.

But now that's getting into "character", and in that regard, in particular, there are plenty of women who have more machismo in their little finger than many blokes will ever have. What I was talking about originally though was the kind of machismo my late brother had, and an Aussie pal had who (sorry, fsc...!) I've mentioned on these threads before.

To my brother, who was relatively short and slight like me, discretion was never the better part of valour. I think he was mad, but there'll always be a big part of me that honours him for that madness - as well other wonderful (and more propitious to his health and safety) qualities that he had. And my Aussie friend, now a lawyer close to retirement, who is still also very much larger than life, used to carry around a crowbar in the glove-compartment of his Volks "beatle", which he explained to me was to even things up, if he had trouble with another motorist way above his size! But there are other stories I believe I related about him.

[Beware the Beast Man]

24. By your definition of "machismo," I must be a real man's man.

1. I like football.
2. Some cars are really, really cool.
3. If I see someone of the opposite sex who is appealing, I am going to call out that fact.

With that said, I have no need to point out my "manliness." I like expressing my feelings, I cook, I clean, I cry at sappy songs. I like design shows. My wife knows more about cars than I do. I call my cats my "kids." Machismo is when a man feels the need to point out what is manly and what a "real man" should or shouldn't do. I don't do that. It has nothing to do with liking sports, cars or hot women.

[Rabrrrrrr]

26. It's pure "I have a small penis" fuckin' bullshit, including the whole

"macho" thing from the community from which the word "macho" comes, the whole fake "honor" fucking crap.

And the football/car worship and discourteous behavior you mention as well.

[tjwmason]

33. I don't understand it - but not disgusted by it.

We all swoon over various different things - wave a C.D. of Marie-Claire Alain playing Messiaen on the Grandes Orgues of St. Sulpice in Paris in front of me, and I'll sure as hell go wobbly at the knees. It's just different things over which people obsess - I don't understand their obsessions and they don't understand mine.

Sports I do understand - that's the feeling of being part of a wider group. I don't follow any sports teams, but will watch most England rugby internationals on television, and try to catch a fair bit of their cricket test matches too.

[pokerfan]

36. Denis Leary on "Machismo"

Are You Man Enough?

by Denis Leary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a cold hard fact that you must now chew and swallow: if you are reading this, you are not macho. Period. Case closed. Real men do not read anything other than GUNS AND AMMO, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, or SHAVED BEAVER.

Do not mention FIRE IN THE BELLY. Do not clutch your copy of IRON JOHN. Sit your soft little ass down and listen up. Understanding macho means that you don't possess it. I have proven myself to be the pussy that I am by writing this piece. (I'm wearing a powder blue cotton print shirt and peach panties as I type) Ernest Hemingway, you say? Wrong. Ernest lived a very macho life and wrote some very macho stories. But Ernest threw it all away by blowing his head off with a shotgun. Very unmacho. Real men do not commit suicide. Real men know just how much life sucks. Real men grit their teeth and take it bill after bill, war after war, tumor after tumor. You don't greet Death, you punch him in the throat repeatedly as he drags you away. I think John Wayne said it best when he said, "Fuck Death and the lung cancer he rode in on."

Macho is a very slippery thing. You don't read about it, you don't write about it, you don't even know the correct spelling of the word. In a vain attempt to keep some semblance of masculinity, I didn't research the roots of the word while writing this article, but I can only assume that "macho" comes from "machismo," which sounds a hell of a lot like machine. Being macho implies a tough, hard, blocklike approach full of pistons and rods and axles and other big steel-type stuff.

It's hard to live by the old macho code these days. They've chipped away at it over the years, slowly but surely. Drinking has been reduced to a few beers or a couple of whiskeys, if that. Otherwise, your AA friends begin to stare across the table with that "I personally think you have a problem and that all alcohol should be banned so that I won't feel the urge to drink myself into a naked stupor but I'm not gonna say anything" look on their faces. No mess, no mauling, no mistress, no mas.

From time to time, people try to use macho as an image builder. Bush tries to make himself seem like a card-carrying Mace Club member. He's not. The last macho president we had was FDR. FDR-a man stricken by polio, stuck in a wheelchair, fighting the Nazis all the while smoking 3 & 1/2 packs a day. "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself!" Yeah, and staircases, of course. And soccer and dancing.

I think the death of macho is easily located on a very recent map. Sometime in the late '70s-right around the time the Village People released "Macho Man" and Barry Manilow sang "Copacabana" and Robby Benson was mewling his way into the hearts of teenage ultra-virgins, men made a serious mistake. We started TALKING to each other. We stopped punching each other and began discussing why we wanted to punch each other. I'll bet my right nut that if I had done some research, I would have found a dramatic decline in facial cuts and brain contusions starting in 1977. Now we're supposed to be sensitive. We are supposed to share our feelings and cry at funerals and care about our hair. We're, in short, supposed to be women. Hello, my name is Shirley. Touch me in the morning.

I believe in equal rights. I believe that women should get equal pay for equal jobs. I believe women should have control of their bodies and be in positions of power. I believe we should have the same size shoulder pads in our suits. But I also believe that men should be men and women should be, well, women. Women should be soft and smart and mysterious. And men should have their own tools. I pine for the sheer stupidity of the old macho days, when men would brandish hammers and build huge, bulky cars that sucked up gas and tore open the ozone layer and crushed small animals beneath totally useless but totally cool-looking tail fins. When men were apes with good shoes and a dental plan. John Wayne, John Huston, Bill Holden, Bob Mitchum, Clark Gable, Babe Ruth, Lee Marvin, Sam Peckinpah. Men who drank and fought and puked and ate raw meat right off the bone and drank some more and fought some more and puked again and kept on drinking. Men who died of massive heart attacks or sudden brain seizures or who just plain fucking blew up. Men who had cancer six or seven times. Men made out of leather.

My dad was one of these men. My dad once cut off his thumb with a power saw, duct-taped it back on, and drove himself to the hospital smoking a Camel un-filtered on the way. My dad's theory was simple: no pain - no fucking pain. My dad smoked 5 packs a day, worked 3 jobs 7 days a week, ate beef for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. One night in 1985, he ate a big steak dinner with a side order of bacon and extra steak fries. He ordered some coffee, sat back, lit up a cigarette, and exploded.

I don't wanna hear about Arnold Schwarzenegger. Even Arnold caved in. In Terminator 2, he was all of a sudden Mr. Caring Guy, protecting the kid and hoping the earth wouldn't end. Bullshit. There was even a sequence at the end of the movie where a huge truck full of flammable liquid tears down a highway for about 3 minutes and then doesn't blow up. A sign of the times if ever there was one. Every real man knows the one golden rule of macho movie making: if you see a truck on screen, blow it up. In Thelma & Louise, the women saw a truck. What did they do? Susan Sarandon pulled out her gun and blew the truck way the fuck up. Another sign of the times. Arnold's tromping around praying for the earth to save itself and Ms. Davis and Ms. Sarandon are drinking and shooting and screwing their way all over the macho west. Citizen Kane? A masterpiece. But every real man knows it would have been better if a huge Mack truck with the word ROSEBUD emblazoned on the trailer drove through the front gate of the mansion and then KAA-POWWWWW!

Another movie matter I'd like to get off my girly little chest: asses. Part of this new male code has men baring their butts on screen the way women used to do. Mel Gibson, Kevin Costner, Michael Douglas, and of course, Arnold. Hey, if I wanted to see Kevin Costner's ass, I would've married him. You never saw Bob Mitchum's ass. I am in a macho movie called GUNMEN, and I can guarantee you that you never see my ass on any screen but if you do, it will not be shaved. It will be hairy and hoary and very, very white.

Our macho movie idols have changed forever. No wonder they end up baring it all. Listen to the names--Mel, Kevin, Michael, Arnold. In the old days movie stars had real names: John, Bill, Duke, Buck, Chuck, Rip. Kevin sounds like your skinny Irish cousin with the big Coke bottle glasses and a heat rash; Mel, the guy in charge of aisle five at Woolworth's. ("Excuse me Mel, where are the light bulbs?")

It's getting very bad, boys. We don't blow up trucks anymore. Hell, we don't even drive trucks anymore. We drive simple little Japanese cars with air bags. In the old days we used to rip out the seat belts and fly through the windshield ready for action. "Thrown from the car." Remember that phrase in accident reports? Always the sign of a very macho driver.

We seem a little more sorry, a little more plump, a lot more ladylike around the edges. If you really want to reclaim your macho self, if you really want to be a macho, macho man, stop reading this article.

If you are still reading, you probably need a little more help. Forget Robert Bly or FIRE IN YOUR PROSTATE. Don't go on a Male-Bonding Self-Discovery Weekend, which is just another term for Circle Jerk as far as I'm concerned. Here, instead, is a guide:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BALLS, A.K.A. COJONES: You should have several. Preferably brass or steel. Extra large.

CRYING: Never. Ever. Over anything. Not death in the family, not a bullet in the chest. You may tear up ever so slightly in one eye only when watching a favorite sports legend retire. You may tear up in both eyes only when kicked, accidentally or on purpose, in the COJONES.

KISSING: see "SPORTS"

HUGGING: see "SPORTS"

SPORTS: Once all men within reach are dressed in a team uniform, it is perfectly acceptable to kiss and hug and grab each other's ass. This is probably because all men are latent homosexuals and prefer male company to female company. But if some guy points out this fact to you, punch him directly in the throat. (Optional retorts: "Prefer this!" or "Fuck You!" or " Shut the fuck up!"

HEALTH: Never go to the hospital or visit a doctor. If you have a stroke, keep drinking and act like you prefer to use only one side of your body. If you cut off a limb while using a power tool--so what? That's why there's duct tape and staple guns. If someone tries to drive you to the hospital after a heart attack or maiming, punch him in the throat. (Optional retorts: "Drive This!" or "Fuck you!" or "Shut the fuck up!")

DIET: meat, cigarettes, meat, booze, meat, and coffee. In case of aneurysm or alcohol-induced coma, see "HEALTH."

FIGHTING: At all times, over anything. Never hit a woman. Or a child. Or a bus. Never hit a priest until he takes off his collar. (If it's the pope, wait until he removes the large hat.) Clergy will often provoke a punch in the throat with their "violence doesn't prove anything" pontifications. (Optional retorts: "Prove this!" or "Fuck you Father!" or "Shut the fuck up, Padre!")

DRINKING: No falling down. No puking--unless to empty the stomach in order to continue drinking. No slurring of words. Tell a few war stories: "See that scar? I was in 'Nam and I ate a grenade and it blew up in my colon." If your aim is off due to alcohol, it's acceptable to punch someone in the head or solar plexus.

SEX: You're probably too drunk or just plain stupid to have sex but pretend you get a lot, i.e. "You should've seen me last night, blah, blah, blah, blah."

Absorb this info and you should be on your way. If you have any further questions, call 1-800-COJONES. Remember: We're men. Big, boxy, sweaty, ignorant men. We have penises. Well, we used to have penises. Either way, I think Billy Martin, the late Yankees manager, said it best when he said, "Hey, I can drive."

[PatriotGames]

37. I have always wondered why guys are afraid to ask for directions.

I'm a guy and I'll ask for directions as soon I know I am lost.