So, what are kids expected to know at age 3?

[eyesroll]

My BF showed me a report sheet for his daughter's pre-school, and I was amazed at what the teachers said under "needs improvement."

This child just turned three in September, and she knows (and recognizes) all of her letters, recognizes numerals up to 8 or so (she can count to 15 before she starts getting jumbled). She knows all of her colors, and how to make green, purple and orange from other colors. She recognizes patterns ("red, green, red, green -- can I have the red-green-red-green square cup please?") and understands the concept of matching ("this potty is pink like my tongue"). Her vocabulary is amazing. She knows "critique" and "frustrated" and "velociraptor" and "anemone." She knows the difference between a tortoise and a turtle. She can point out a tiger lilly in a garden, and a pigeon or a seagull or a cardinal in the sky.

In other words -- this is a smart kid. That said, she's a bit clingy, just recently finally gave up the pacifier (still asks for it -- along with being fed in a highchair -- on occasion, and is turned down), is prone to tantrums and will often get frustrated to the point of not being able or perhaps not being willing to do things for herself (such as take her shoes off or put her crayons back in the box) that she's perfectly capable of doing. These are things that do "need improvement," and much of that will come with age.

Her teachers also said she needs to improve on math (?) and writing her name (!!?!?).

I don't know -- I don't think I knew how to write my name until kindergarten, and I know from the child-development classes I took in teacher prep that three-year-olds don't really have a sense of quantity beyond 10 or so. They get their numbers wrong because the numbers don't mean anything. (Ask her how old she is and she'll say "THREE!!!" Ask her how old I am and she'll say "EIGHT!" or "ONE HUNDRED!" before she remembers I'm 30.)

Since when do pre-schools teach academics? (This is a private pre-school, not Head Start or something else that's feeling No Child Left Behind trickle-down. I think.)

[progmom]

1. holy shit

that's a smart kid. and that pre-school scares me!! :scared:

my three-year-old can recognize his name written but he sure as hell can't write it.

[eyesroll]

4. That's Madison for you.

It's a really overeducated town (vs. the jobs that are there), and I think it's reflected in school.
The pre-school does seem really good otherwise -- it's clear she likes it there, and she's learning a lot. (She had a near-meltdown in my place a few weeks ago because...I didn't have Mr. Yuck on my cleaning solutions, which she learned about in school.) It's also a mixed-age classroom, which may have something to do with it -- there are kids nearly two years older than she is, and she can hold her own socially, but not always academically.

She can write a crude "H" no problem (she likes H -- you can get her to eat something she otherwise wouldn't by cutting it into an H shape), but the rest of it is tough unless you're standing right over her and guiding her.

[purr]

2. My son is 4 and my daughter is 2..

My 4 yr old can write his full name and his phone number. He knew his alphabet before he turned 2 along with his colors and numbers. I never baby talked to my kids so they both know rather 'adult' words such as - riduculous (i cant spell lol), hideous, outstanding, irritating, hilarious etc... and they know what the word means when you ask and uses it in correct context.

I too enrolled my kids in a private pre school and my 4 yr old is completely bored. My 2 yr old has a riot because she thinks its play time.

As far fetched as it sounds, I was able to read when I was 3.

[eyesroll]

6. I was, too.

I didn't write for awhile after that -- my fine motor development just didn't allow it. (My handwriting's still terrible.)

This girl's close to being able to read -- she recognizes a lot of words already, and she knows "b" makes a "buh" sound, and so forth.

Still...I wonder if setting up expectations that may be beyond her actual abilities won't set her up for more frustration later.

[purr]

12. Thats what I'm afraid of...

hes so bored with preschool because they're going over the letters and numbers and he already knows all of that.

I thought about entering him into kindergarden early and I would've had to put him through psychological testing and I didnt feel that it was right to put him through that mess.

He even helps my step son with his kindergarden homework. He was also able to use the computer at age 2.

I push him a lot to learn. I dont know if thats a right thing or wrong thing to do.

[miss_american_pie]

3. Honestly

I think they're all feeling the NCLB trickle. Kids are expected to have reading skills in kindie these days, and a lot of the pre-schools advertise on getting kids kindie ready.

About the clinginess, have there been any recent changes in her life? That all sounds pretty normal.

I'm looking for a play-based pre-school for my son next year, and having a really hard time.

[eyesroll]

7. Yeah, clinginess is normal at her age.

Her parents' split isn't particularly new -- she has no conscious memory of them being together -- but the custody shifts still take their toll.

Have you considered Montessori?

[miss_american_pie]

16. Yeah, we're looking into a few

We're hoping to move in the spring, and having trouble finding centrally located, affordable schools.

My older son will be four in a couple months, still has his paci at night and wants to be fed all the time. But he still calls his nine month old brother "the new baby" so I think he's still working out the adjustment.

Custody changes are rough. How is the relationship between her parents? Does she sense any tension between them?

[eyesroll]

19. They're pretty good around one another.

They spent her birthday together, for instance -- and will spend Christmas together (um, with me too...eek...) I'm sure she senses tension because it's impossible to fully hide it, but she doesn't see fighting, and there's no badmouthing.

But, yeah, there is some separation anxiety -- she cries for Mama when she's either so overtired she can't see straight, or she knows she's lost the argument.

[Blue Diadem]

5. There's so much they have to know now just to enter Kindergarten

even in the public schools. I was surprised at the pre-kingergarten testing for my granddaughter, the amount of things they have to know upon entering that they used to learn during that year.

Her pre-school years were not like the pre-school of my children's era back in the late 70's early 80's. Pre-school now is like kindergarten and perhaps even 1st grade of years ago.

[eyesroll]

9. That sounds about right.

I was in pre-school in the late 70s, and while I remember that we had books and did things with letters and numbers, it was primarily about socialization -- not knocking over anyone else's blocks, not flinging paint, etc.

[LaraMN]

8. Imho- that's sick.

Whatever happened to letting a child be a child? This kind of grade-and-criticize-a-baby crap just pisses me off. It sounds like your bf's daughter is doing an amazing job. I am so afraid that these kind of educational environments stunt a child's creativity by picking at excessive aspects of practical learning. The most important things that I am focusing on teaching my three year old are empathy, respect and good behavior and creative expression. From my experience, with ample opportunity, involvement, and encouragement, the rest pretty much comes on its own.

[eyesroll]

10. There is, at least, a good deal of art and creative play at the pre-school

(It's a full day program -- necessary day care -- so she's there awhile.)

They sing songs in Spanish and visit the apple orchard and learn about fire safety from a Real Live Fireman. It's not a bad program -- and, from what I understand, "academics" are taught more through play, song and art than through sitting there with a pencil and a workbook, but the progress report was a bit jarring.

[LaraMN]

29. It sounds like a fun program, and I'd imagine the kids don't feel the

pressure that you did, upon reading her progress report. That's good, however, it's an extension of what I've seen as my son has moved into grade school. Compared to when I was in (the very same) school, the focus of learning has shifted so far away from a balance of obtaining knowledge and appreciating the "journey," to simply competing, shoving down facts, and regurgitating required information. It bothers me to no end. Every year my son advances in school, I'm shocked to see what's thrown at him, and how harshly he's graded on the information; I don't recall studying fractions, even and odd integers, or adding and subtracting two and three digit numbers in first grade. I want him to grow up to love learning new things and to be an insightful, creative, critical thinker. Public schools are really suffering, and I think I know of at least one person I'd smack a good deal of blame on, for that!

[eyesroll]

32. Wow.

I remember when I started piano lessons in first grade, my piano teacher actually taught me basic fractions (half note, quarter note, etc.) because it hadn't come up yet in school.

She does seem to enjoy the program, regardless, so I guess it'll all work out.

[LaraMN]

51. It sounds like a program I'd enjoy!

:rofl: As long as she's happy, I'd say it's all good.

[progmom]

14. Lara - sounds like you're an amazing mom

...or at least your priorities line up well with mine. :pals:

[LaraMN]

23. Amazing, alright-- you should see what I let her leave the house in,

this morning; my only priority for dressing was "warm." She wore: A cinderella costume dress, rainbow tights, floral capris, A black
"leather" jacket, an old-fashioned floral bonnet, mismatched mittens, a scarf, dress-up shoes, and a whole lot of necklaces. :rofl:

[eyesroll]

26. :D

I think your little one and my BF's daughter would get along fabulously.

Oddly, though, if left to her own devices, her outfits match better than if her dad dresses her ...:D

[LaraMN]

50. Hahaa! My husband can match- he just manages to find the one

pair of pants still in the drawer that no longer fit her, and the top that she isn't going to fit for another year yet, and he dresses her in that.:rofl:

[jhain]

34. I agree- it's a crying shame

The little one you describe is WAAAAY ahead of most 3 yo- academically.

But, children have needs which are normally met through PLAY-
"Play is the work of the child".

Constant 'school' and the resulting ludicrous expectations at the toddler/ "PRE" School level can be detrimental to development.
The lack of knowledge regarding actual child development as exhibited by the 'teachers' here is damn frightening.
Maybe these books would be a good 'teacher present' for the upcoming holidays:
http://tinyurl.com/csot8

Unmet needs do not go away.
Many of these 'smart' children are still little babies on the inside-never having had the chance to develop mentally- as opposed to academically....

All this author's books are wonderful:
http://tinyurl.com/7wrx3

More on the subject:
http://tinyurl.com/8dvd4

[tigereye]

43. yes

:thumbsup:

there is a big difference between typically developing kids (wide range of variation) and kids that have real developmental delays.

Kids in elem. appear to be expected to know stuff about 2 years ahead of what we did in the old days. It is very weird, and pushing this stuff on young kids REALLY BOTHERS ME. I think it sends a very problematic message.

My son is doing stuff in 4th grade I don't remember doing until 6th grade or Jr. High. Just because some research says that kids can do all this stuff, doesn't mean they are ready on all fronts, or that they should.

[LynzM]

11. That's absurd.

Many countries don't even teach reading until 7-8 yrs old, and still have great literacy rates. She sounds like a very bright kiddo, and all three-year-olds are prone to tantrums when they don't get their way. It sounds like they are pushing them a little too hard there, to me... :(

[bleedingheart]

13. This is how Private Schools justify their existence...

the parents are paying all this cash and they wanna make sure that junior is on track for Harvard...

So they do this kind of stuff to make sure that the parents feel they are getting their money's worth....meanwhile they kids are typically out of the loop and just having fun at the pre-school.

When shopping for pre-schools...people will typically pay more for those places that offer all the "frills" and all the special programs...

meanwhile...I selected the daycare program that provided snacks and hot lunch because I didn't want my kids to starve because mommy was too frazzled to remember to make lunch....

[dolo amber]

15. Does she shave every day?

;)

I know this kid, there's nothing at all "slow and/or special" about this kid. She's a little whiz. That school has the problem, not H. :)

[eyesroll]

22. Only when she's "crispy."

;-)

Now, see, if the progress report had said she needs improvement in knowing the proper time and place to wear (vs. not wear) clothing, then I'd agree wholeheartedly. She met my parents for the first time, pantsless. She managed to fling them off between when my dad knocked on the door and when they came in.

[tigereye]

44. even that isn't so odd for 3

my brothers used to run onto the porch naked periodically when they were not much older than that. A lot of much older kids don't really get that stuff, that's the parent's job.

[eyesroll]

45. Yeah, I remember reading that a sense of modesty won't kick in until 5

or 6...

Right now, it's a matter of the "there's a time and a place for nudity and the grocery store isn't it" lecture.

She finds the concept of adult nudity hilarious, though:

"What are you doing?"
"I'm taking a shower."
"Are you naked? Hee hee hee."

Or:

"Are you naked, Papa?"
"No, I just don't have a shirt on. I'm changing my shirt."
"Hee hee. You're naked. My papa's naked. I'm not naked. Are you naked, Stacie?" (I should add I was visible and fully clothed.)

I think she likes the word...

[tigereye]

48. kids do so many things

that the "books" don't really cover. I'm supposed to be an "expert" in these matters, and sometimes I am still amazed by what mine does and what other kids, not just clients, do.

they just love to explore and they see the world very differently than we do. You probably used to do a lot of the same things... one thing I love is the stage where they talk to flowers and other inanimate objects - that is so sweet and developmentally appropriate.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. WHOOOOP WHOOOOOOOP

That is my teacher antenna going haywire.

This is not a good school. NO 3 year old should be asked to write her name. Sure, at home playing around. This school is WAY too academic. (BTW, the academic stuff is very popular with Christian acadamies in the south)

Appropriate pre school activities can be summed up in one word: PLAY. Play is the work of childhood. There should be play centers, and books and toys and kitchens and tools and all that good stuff. Once in a while, "circle time." Three-year olds should only sit in chair to eat lunch. They should nap in the afternoon.

It's all about play. There are lots of good resources on line about this. Florida has just gone through the trauma of licensing pre K programs that are now free and this is the theme I keep hearing. Play, Play, Play.

[eyesroll]

20. Well, there is all of that, too.

I wouldn't say it's a bad school. (And it is very secular.)

I tend to think that a poster upthread had it right -- these progress reports keep the parents happy that their little prodigies are learning.

Oddly, this center isn't any more expensive than any other in the area, and is in fact much cheaper than her last caregiver (a home-based caregiver who had a lot of weird rules and scheduling issues, which is why they finally gave up on the otherwise good program).

(She's largely outgrown her nap, though, and she prefers a chair to the floor for art. But I get what you're saying.)

[jhain]

35. brainshare! n/t

[AirmensMom]

18. Oh, Jeez, when are kids allowed to be kids?

:banghead:

Sorry, but I think kids need to be able to explore the world a little more before they're expected to fit into that little academic box. So, a kid reads or writes by the age of 3, or gets potty trained at the age of 10 months ... and now they "graduate" from kindergarten. Are people really convinced that this helps the child? I'm not.

Perhaps the clingy behavior, need of the pacifier, tantrums, etc., is this child's way of dealing with the frustration over all the expectations placed on her at such a young age. Just a thought.

[eyesroll]

24. I did "graduate" from Kindergarten in 1981.

I think we sang a couple of songs and had cake. :D

That's an interesting thought about dealing with frustration...it's hard to remember she's only three at times, because you wouldn't know it from talking to her. It's like talking to a little adult a lot of the time, until she throws in a little bit of kid speak: "Today we learned about fire safety, and I know I need to get out of the house if there's a fire, even without permission, and call 911 if there's an emergency, and look on the wall -- that's a fire alarm. (beat) Fish sticks smell like a stinky potty."

She's emotionally still very much her age, though, and that's hard to remember.

[AirmensMom]

30. Exactly.

She is a child. Just think about what happened to all those child TV stars. We have enough expectations forced on us throughout life. It was always more important to me that my kids were happy, caring people than it was to have the smartest kids on the block. (Mission accomplished ... and they're smart, too, and very creative.)

So, you "graduated" from kindergarten? I've always wondered -- when they do that cap and gown thing at such a young age (and without any real accomplishments), did it diminish your sense of accomplishment when you graduated from high school or college?

[eyesroll]

31. I think we made our "caps," and didn't wear a gown...so no.

Unless the ceremony is overly formal and too much like a hs/college graduation, I don't think there's much chance of confusing the two.

I "graduated" from elementary school in similar fashion -- we had a breakfast and we all got ribbons or maybe certificates. No caps or gowns or diplomas.

[AirmensMom]

33. Oh, I've seen some pretty formal ones here.

And I've seen some where the caps were cleverly made out of paper plates and squares of cardboard, decorated by the kids.

Holy cow! They "graduate" kids from elementary school these days, too? Very interesting. I'm feeling old ... and old-fashioned.

[XNASA]

21. Whatever they know, they forget 90% of it by the time they're 16.

Ask me how I know.

[kick-ass-bob]

25. I don't know the difference between a tortoise and a turtle.

And what about a terrapin?

My daughter goes to preschool to interact with kids, not to prep her for Harvard. But LOTS of preschools do this kind of stuff, and it annoys the hell out of me.

[underpants]

28. Okay Bob sit down here on your SpongeBob nappy mat

Q. What's the difference between turtles and tortoises? A. Water!
Or where you live.

In North America, we call them "tortoises" if they live almost entirely on land and don't need constant access to water. We call them "turtles" if they do need constant access to water. This includes box turtles, basking turtles, mud turtles and sea turtles. We use the word "terrapin" only for one type of turtle that lives in brackish (slightly salty) water-- the diamondback terrapin.


http://www.turtlepuddle.org/kidspage/questions.html

[NNadir]

27. We're making a mistake with this stuff.

We're removing the fun of childhood.

I will say that I was guilty of this sort of thing myself. My son knew the periodic table up to the first transition element at age 4, and his first kindergarten "show and share" involved building a circuit on a breadboard with an LED.

Then for various reasons, I let up with that stuff which was a good thing. My son is a very fine eleven year old, and he does science and math when he feels like it, which is occasionally, but not often. Sometimes we do proofs together, but it is just a way of us having father and son time. No stress, no drilling, no quizzing.

His brother, my youngest, got none of that steroid for the mind stuff, and he is doing just fine. Many people think he's smarter than his brother, and his brother is smart.

They actually learn more about the world though, by playing outside and turning over rocks.

If I had my life to do over again, I would send my children to preschools where they play.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. Is that preschool run by Anjelica Houston perchance?

Get her off it and into the one run by Eddie Murphy.

[Beware the Beast Man]

37. What kind of school is this?

I would think, at age three, she is way ahead of her peers in all those things you mentioned. I wasn't writing my name until I was four, and didn't have any real concept of mathematics until i was five.

[eyesroll]

39. It's a pretty standard child-care center/pre-school in Madison.

The home-based ones generally have more personalized attention, but they have schedules and rules that are hard to live with. H's old daycare provider had a great program, but she took off every Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Wiccan holiday, plus scheduled random vacations, during which parents had to scramble to find alternate care. Plus, if she was sick, she had to close.

H is naturally bright on her own, but her highly verbal nature makes her seem more mature than she really is.

I think I was similar when I was little -- I was reading before I turned 3, and had a very adult demeanor throughout elementary school (to the point where a camp counselor had wondered what made me grow up so fast). But I was very much a little kid inside, even if I wouldn't accept that at the time.

[LeftyMom]

38. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a 3 year old to write her name

Many (if not most) kids that age simply don't have the fine motor skills to do so yet, no matter how smart they are. Likewise math for a three year old should consist mostly of counting and comparing quantities. If she can do that, she's fine.

My opinion: She sounds like a smart kid. She'll figure out what she needs to know with little trouble. You're better off keeping her home if the alternative is an overly academic preschool that will always demand more than she is ready to give and may ruin her confidence and love of learning.

[eyesroll]

41. Well, it's not my call to make on keeping her home.

Her mom (weekday custody) works full-time. She has a masters' degree and works in a bookstore. This is not an uncommon scenario there.

Her dad (weekend custody, 90 minutes away) is a student, getting his BA (he's a sophomore at 30) so he can have better employment in the future. He's also looking for part-time work.

Neither make enough money or are independently wealthy enough for one of them to stay home full-time (which is hard enough in a single household but damn near impossible when parents live apart). So, preschool it is.

[LeftyMom]

52. Just a thought

Hopefully her next school will be a better fit.

[flvegan]

40. I dunno, but she's already overqualified to be a Freeper.

Counting to 15 and all...

[eyesroll]

42. Heh -- her dad does a Dick Cheney impersonation, and this weekend,

as we were leaving the art museum, he did a Cheney scowl for some reason or other.

She ran away, screaming, "DICK CHENEY SCARES ME!!!"

[flvegan]

46. I'd love an mp3 of that!

[MountainLaurel]

47. Fabulous

:spray: :rofl:

Incredibly bright child, obviously!

[tigereye]

49. and

she is wise! ;)

[0007]

53. Shit, eat, Sleep and play.

When they start school everything changes.

[Cats Against Frist]

54. I have the exact opposite problem

My son's preschool teachers are still teaching their class the letters! I'm sorry, but if a child doesn't know the alphabet by age 3, there's some slack parenting going on.

I asked them if there was some way that my son could skip ahead -- he can count to 100, read simple books & write simple words (& recognizes all color and number words), does simple math, knows his months, days of the week, his planets, he can point out half the states, has an advanced vocabulary, and can tell some time (hours and half hours), and can do some simple operations with money. He learned most of this from his computer, which he's been playing, since age 1. I wish I could take credit.

But they say that there's a law in Iowa that says you can't move a child ahead to Kindergarten. So, he comes home with "A is for Apple" pieces of paper, and I just deal with it.

I too have had some bad reports, as far as listening, frustration, etc., goes. For that reason, I'm sort of glad they're keeping him in his age group -- the maturity thing could eventually make a difference. Too, if our kids are bored (it sounds like you have a very smart daughter), or the teachers are just emphasising rote operations, that could be a reason for the behavioral problems. My son just turned four, in August, and he was very much like you described your child, a year ago, when he was the same age as her. I wouldn't worry about it.