I'm hesitant to consult a fundy, creationist ear, nose & throat doc.

[Ladyhawk]

After flushing my ears out with hydrogen peroxide, I'm having some hearing anomalies. When I play the piano, it sounds like I'm constantly changing keys and sometimes a single note sounds like two notes. I haven't even tried to sing, yet. This is NOT GOOD for a musician. Next week I have a voice recital, a piano recital and an audition for two solos in Handel's Messiah.

I saw a doc today and he said everything looked normal and that my next step would be to consult an ear, nose and throat specialist. He referred me to perhaps the only one in town, a doctor whose name I recognized. A big neon sign lit up and flashed in my brain: FUNDY NUTJOB!!!...FUNDY NUTJOB!!!...FUNDY NUTJOB!!!

Last time I saw this doctor, I was in a playful mood. As he started scribbling notes, I asked if there was a mandatory class for aspiring doctors that ensured their handwriting was completely illegible. The ear, nose and throat doc didn't want to joke. Trying to break the ice, I asked if perhaps his handwriting had simply evolved, becoming worse and worse as he was exposed to more and more note-taking. Finally, he replied, "No, it seemed to get worse in steps."

"Ah," I said, smiling, "punctuated equilibrium." He didn't say anything, didn't crack a smile. "Do you know what punctuated equilibrium is?" I asked.

"Yes," he said, "but it's nonsense. I believe in creationism."

Suddenly I didn't trust the guy anymore. I'm supposed to put my hearing in the hands of a doctor who doesn't believe in evolution? I suppose he might be smart enough to compartmentalize knowledge. Perhaps he's a competent enough doctor, but still...

Ugh.

I guess it's my decision to make, but I don't feel confident in the critical thinking skills of a creationist. Still, that's par for the course in this town. Even if there was another ear, nose and throat specialist, it would probably be another fundy...and folks wonder why I insisted on having my surgery OUT OF TOWN. :)

[castiron]

1. Listen to your hesitation and HEED

I flat out ask my health care providers whether or not they are fundies and I try to locate like-minded auto and home people. Plenty of docs out there for you!!!

[moc]

2. I don't trust a doctor who is a creationist.

In my opinion, it displays an extreme deficit in critical thinking skills. Critical thinking skills are a requirement for a good doctor. Therefore, "good doctor" and "believes in creationism" are mutually exclusive.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. Well, how can a scientist

not believe in evolution?

All the scientists I know - most of them are with the National Zoo - think this creationism stuff is religious bullshit.

[moc]

12. They can't.

A scientist who doesn't believe in evolution is by definition, not a scientist. That's like saying you can be a scientist and not believe in gravity.

I'm a scientist, by the way. Both of my parents were as well. In addition, my parents are very strong Catholics. They both believe in evolution.

[Ilsa]

28. And it is pretty cool that the Catholic Church supports evolution.

It is one thing about this church that my husband and I both like.

[damntexdem]

10. On the other hand, a Creo dentist was just fine:

he did good work and didn't charge much. I didn't discuss religion or science with him -- how could I, with all those things in my mouth?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

13. Oh, it's possible

One of my best girlfriends is also my dentist, and whenever she's checking me up, no matter if she's grabbing my tongue, we're talking about... well, we're gossiping.

It's possible, believe me. I get all the dirt from the hygienist who cleans my teeth and then check it out with Kim when she comes in to examine my mouf.

Then, because I always take the last appointment of the day, she and I go out for drinks and dinner and don't always end up chasing goodlooking men in her red Porsche.

Or drunk in Target, trying to find those cute little singing kitties, when we decided we liked each other's wedding rings better, so we switched.

I've said too much, haven't I?

[Ladyhawk]

19. Yes, I've gone to a 7th Day Adventist Dentist most of my life and

he's good. :shrug: The ear, nose and throat guy is probably a 7th Day Adventist as well, since they are the ones who sponsor the hospital.

It's just I don't understand how they can compartmentalize knowledge like that. While they are at work, they must acknowledge the fact that bacteria EVOLVE to be resistant to antibiotics, right? So, when they go to church, they disavow this knowledge? Or do they use the "it's only micro-evolution" argument?

[porphyrian]

26. I went to a fundie dentist for my root canal.

It was one of the most surreal experiences in my life. Everyone was sickeningly nice. They put me in a room that could've been in someone's house were it not for the medical equipment (which was fairly high-tech, I must say). The chair was facing this strange painting that was sort of a landscape, but with pigs running around. Then they doped me up and left me there for the stuff to take effect. The whole time, they were piping in Christian muzak that sounded like it could've been the ambient track at a Christian Epcot Center. Freaky.

[Ladyhawk]

27. And was the root canal pleasant? :) n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. If you go back,

you're crazier than he is.

Find someone else.

[Ladyhawk]

22. LOL...there really isn't anyone to choose from.

:shrug:

[castiron]

4. Of course when you go to naturopaths and chiropractors

it's pretty easy to tell. Kind of. I do a lot of stereotyping I guess.

[longship]

6. Nothing in biology makes any sense without evolution.

If I knew my doctor was a creationist I would dump her immediately. Before doing that I would explain to her why I was doing so. I do not trust anybody who doesn't trust the scientific methodology.

[damntexdem]

7. Hey as a Creo otorhinolaryngologist, treating a woman, he also knows ...

all about ribs. ;-)

Seriously, stay away. For one thing, he may not even believe in what Creos call 'microevolution,' so may not care about bacterial development of resistance to antibiotics.

[ChickMagic]

8. Anyone who devotes their life

to cleaning up God's messes is loony. Find a reasonable doc.

[ComerPerro]

9. I wouldn't trust the opinions of a creationist, especailly a doctor!

[Karmageddon]

11. I'd find someone else, for two (at least) reasons

1) I wouldn't trust him
2) I wouldn't want to support him financially. After all, why does he need your money? God will provide, right?

[SmokingJacket]

14. Heck, not being willing to make a handwriting joke is bad enough.

I like a little banter with a doctor.

He sounds a bit on the rigid side. I'd go elsewhere.

Hey, good luck on your recitals and auditions! :hi: from one pianist to another.

[mondo joe]

15. See him, and tell him you think a devil got in your ear.

See what he says!

[Ladyhawk]

32. He'd probably send me to the fundy psychiatrist at the local hospital.

LOL!

I've encountered her before and boy, is she a piece of work! I would not see her again. As for the ear, nose and throat guy...:shrug: I don't have enough experience to say whether or not he would do a good job.

I'm just raising a question: can fundamentalism cause doctors to perform poorly. I know the answer is "yes" in some cases (the fundy psychiatrist comes to mind), but I think it is "no," in others.

[triguy46]

16. Go elsewhere...

regardless of politics, if you don't trust/like your doc, go elsewhere.

[Skittles]

20. I agree with that

if you're not comfortable, you're not comfortable - find another doctor

[Lisa0825]

17. No way in HELL would I trust a supposed doctor who was a creationist!

I worked in a teaching hospital for 10 years and never met ONE! I absolutely would not trust the mind of a person supposedly trained in the sciences who did not believe in the sciences he/she was trained in!

[Divernan]

18. So go to a NEARBY town for another doc; you're in CA, not outer Mongolia!

If you insist on having your surgery out of town, you are familiar with other medical facilites in your general area. As someone who has struggled with hearing loss following an accident, I'm telling you to find a teaching hospital/university based ear, nose and throat specialty GROUP. If you are suffering some kind of infection, the longer you wait, the more irreversible hearing loss you may suffer, and this would be particularly tragic for a musician! ! ! Of course you must have a Board Certified specialist, and when you call for an appointment, tell them it is an emergency - exaggerate your symptoms, if necessary, and emphasize you are unable to function at work - offer to take the first available appt. and have them call you if there are any cancellations.

In a related area, a dear friend of mine went to a "local" eye doctor, who misdiagnosed him, and is near legally blind in one eye because treatment was delayed by the first doc.

[Ladyhawk]

25. I'm still having fatigue issues from surgery and California is a big state

Modesto is the nearest big town where there might be a non-fundy doctor...and even there the odds aren't very good. It's a one-hour trip, so that would make it a two-hour round trip. Plus, I'm not feeling very good because of the ear. Also, I would need a referral from my primary care physician and most likely, Medi-Cal would not pay for me to see someone out of the area. Even with a referral from my doctor, they wouldn't let me see a neurologist in Davis about my depression. I'm lucky they let me see a neurosurgeon at UC Davis. So, I go local or I don't see anyone. That is the way of Medi-Cal for most Medi-Cal recipients. It took them over a year to approve an MRI when I needed one. I waited years for surgery.

Luckily, the doctor I saw today said there is no sign of an ear infection. He said I probably have a bit of moisture behind my ear drum that is causing the problem and that, most likely, it will dry up in a few days. Let's hope he isn't a fundy nutjob, too. ;) He said a trip to the local ear, nose and throat guy was optional. The nurse encouraged me, saying the specialist was "competent." I almost started laughing, but that wouldn't have been very nice. :)

Also, I think it is POSSIBLE to compartmentalize knowledge and that some fundy docs can believe one thing at work and another at church and home. However, one of the reasons they work here is because, as one acquaintance put it, they couldn't make it in the big city. So, I'm leery of local docs, anyway. :shrug:

When I had my MRIs and surgery, I had to be driven to and from UC Davis every single time. Finding a driver wasn't easy. :( It's a six-plus hour round trip. It felt especially lovely coming home from having a double diskectomy and fusion. :)

I thank you for your concern and believe me, if the symptoms worsen, I may do just as you suggest. No one can afford to lose hearing, but it would really be tragic for me should that happen. You have my word that I will monitor the situation very closely and do whatever is necessary to get good care.

Thanks again. :)

[SoCalDem]

21. If you are in an HMO, call the benefits office and ask for a different DR

referral. If they ask why, just tell them you are uncomfortable seeing a specialist who is anti-science, and a religious fanatic. There might be another specialist within your group, and if not, they can surely send you outside the group if you cannot have faith in the doctor they want you to see:)

[no name no slogan]

23. I am sorry, but WTF does ones religion have to do with

ones ability to practice medicine? Would you feel the same way if this doctor was a Hindu fundimentalist, or a religious Orthodox Jew?

I call bullshit. It's this kind of hating which gives liberals a bad name. Quite frankly, I don't personally give a f@ck what religion my doctor is, as long as s/he does a good job of treating me.

Dividing people into good/bad based solely on their religious beliefs is something that intolerant right-wing assholes do, NOT tolerant liberty-loving liberals.

BTW why are you washing your ears out with hydrogen peroxide? Who suggested this?

[Ladyhawk]

30. As I mentioned above, I believe some fundies are capable of

compartmentalizing knowledge. They are able to believe one thing at work and another at church and home. However, one of the reasons they work in this small town is because, as one acquaintance put it, they couldn't make it in the big city. So, I'm leery of local docs, anyway, no matter what their religion or lack thereof. :shrug:

It's not the "religion" I question, it's how the religion affects a doctor's ability to think critically. If he / she is able to compartmentalize thinking, then the religion may not affect his / her work at all. At work, bacteria can evolve into antibiotic-resistant strains, but at home and church, evolution isn't true. :shrug: Maybe they are able to believe in "microevolution," which we all know is the same damn thing as "macroevolution." Still, it allows the doc to perform his / her job.

All I'm doing is presenting something to discuss. I wouldn't trust some fundy doctors at all. In fact, I do know of a few local fundy doctors whose religion does indeed adversely affect their performance on the job. This particular doctor struck me as stiff, but he still might be an "okay" doctor. :shrug: I don't have enough experience with him to know one way or the other. I'm not sure I want more experience.

Since you asked: doctors told me to wash out my ears with hydrogen peroxide. :) This is what doctors use in the office. I was told I did the right thing.

[no name no slogan]

54. And the doctor didn't come to his beliefs thru "critical thinking?"

This doctor could have easily come to believe what he does through "critical thinking". Maybe he's seen all the evidence on both sides of the argument and decided that it's entirely possible that the world was created by some sort of "intelligent design".

Believe it or not, it's entirely possible for two people, when presented with the same evidence, to come to two completely different conclusions. Why do you think we have jury trials in this country?

I think it's rather arrogant to assume that the doctor didn't come to his beliefs without thinking about them first. Just because a person is a "fundie" does NOT mean s/he cannot reason or think critically.

Just because a person doesn't pass our ideological litmus test doesn't mean s/he is incapable of critical thought. That's like saying you wouldn't take a car to a southern mechanic because you believe all southern people are ignorant.

[IntravenousDemilo]

55. You say...

"Just because a person is a "fundie" does NOT mean s/he cannot reason or think critically."

Ummm, yes it does....

[GaYellowDawg]

73. No, it doesn't .

Just because a person is a "fundie" does NOT mean s/he cannot reason or think critically.

It means that s/he will not reason or think critically when faced with the slightest conflict with his/her creed. It may seem like semantics, but it's an important distinction. Fundamentalists are no less capable of critical thinking and independent reasoning than anyone else. They simply have chosen not to use those capabilities.

[GirlinContempt]

31. THANK YOU

:loveya:

[ghostsofgiants]

34. My thoughts exactly.

:thumbsup:

[Az]

38. A good question

Would you consult a Christian Scientist doctor for a transfusion? How bout would you go to a Scientologist for depression?

A lot of religious views have very strong beliefs concerning health. Increasingly many sects are finding themself at odds with science and medicine.

It is possible for individuals to keep their belief and profession seperate even when they conflict with each other. This creates a condition called compartmentalization. It is not a stable condition. It leads to stress and anxiety. Often resulting in the colapse of the wall leading to an abandonment of one side or the other.

But the real question is are they going to do good work. Having a strong belief in something that contradicts one's profession is perhaps an indicator of conflict that could impact their work. If not create a downright dangerous situation.

Particularly with todays highly charged atomosphere. Harm can be done by not informing someone of some vital information. And if such a thing is an anathema to the practitioner they may be likely to rely on their faith rather than their professional ethics.

Furthermore in a Doctor/Patient relationship it is vital that they both be on the same page. Ethical issues can arise and any conflict between them could lead to a reluctance to broach the subject. Asking a fundamentalist doctor about the ramifications of an abortion could well lead to conflict.

It is also worth noting that fundamentalists have been increasingly creating networks of businesses that only deal with other believers. They are actively seeking to exclude nonbelievers.

I say if the person is uncomfortable with the doctors beliefs that is a viable reason to consider a new doctor. It is their health on the line. Anything that might preclude the best treatment should be modified or removed.

[asthmaticeog]

49. I think the OP is valid.

I wouldn't have a doctor of ANY religon or no religion at all who rejected the very foundations of biology. I question what anyone with such ill regard for science is doing in medicine to begin with.

[GirlinContempt]

52. Creationism doesn't reject biology

[Az]

53. Ask a biologist

You can't really accept biology without accepting evolution. If you are rejecting evolution then you are rejecting biology. And in medicine evolution has a real day to day impact. Those little bacteria keep adapting to medication. Unless you argue that god is creating new bacteria on a regular basis that seem bent on thwarting our medical practices you are going to have to incorporate evolution in your treatment of a patient.

[GirlinContempt]

59. Not all

creationists dismiss or reject evolution.

What I'm finding most interesting here is that I'm being told that people who believe in creationism basically can't be Doctors (I mean, if you refuse to learn this stuff, how the fuck do you go through med school?!) but that there are lots of them out there. Somehow.

[Az]

62. I am not going to suggest that

But there is an increasing conflict between the medical sciences and certain extreme fundamentalist groups.

As to how they got through medical school with their beliefs it may simply be that they didn't. Fundamentalism can happen at any time in one's life. And that actually creates an additional problem.

Consider the ramifications of having a doctor going through a crisis of faith where his/her professional understanding of things is being challenged by an extremely strong religious awakening. There potential for conflict here.

[asthmaticeog]

63. Yes, they do.

You're confusing creationism with I.D., perhaps? I.D. folks at least make a pretense of accepting *some* tenets of the Darwin model.

And nobody's saying that creationists "can't be doctors," which flies in the face of the demonstrable fact that some are. You're inferring that assertion on your own. What reasonable people on this thread are saying, by and large, is that they're suspicious of practicioners of science who reject the fundamental model from which all modern biology is based.

[GirlinContempt]

65. No, actually not with ID

I'm using YOUR distinction of MY misunderstanding about ID, being that evolutionary creationism is different (another way of saying theistic evolution). evolutionary creationism is a very, VERY widely held belief.
I'm saying that creationists can't be Drs based on the 'facts' that are being presented here.
What I'M saying on this thread, by and large, is that assuming someone is a fundie nutjob because they believe in creationism is wrong, and that saying that a person with this kind of faith rejects the very principals of medicine is ludicrous.

[asthmaticeog]

66. Re-read the OP.

The Dr. in question explicitly rejected the mechanisms of evolution. So all your hair-splitting is quite beside the point. If you don't believe in evolution, you reject modern biology, period. There is no one without the other. They're far too deeply intertwined to reject one and keep the other. And there is no medicine without biology. Thus it is absolutely reasonable to be suspicious of a doctor who explicitly rejects evolution.

[GirlinContempt]

67. Ok

Point that the OP says that is taken. Point that being suspicious isn't wrong.
I still stick by my statement that believing in creationism doesn't make you a fundie, and judging his intelligence based on that is wrong.

[asthmaticeog]

69. "I still stick by my statement that...

...believing in creationism doesn't make you a fundie, and judging his intelligence based on that is wrong."

I never said either of those things.

[GirlinContempt]

70. I never accused *you*

of saying those things.

[GaYellowDawg]

72. One thing that you haven't considered.

if you refuse to learn this stuff, how the fuck do you go through med school?!

Simple. Regurgitate what you think the instructor wants to hear. You don't have to believe in a concept in order to pass a test on it.

[IntravenousDemilo]

56. Ummm...

Yes it DOES, if it relies partly on some unseen and unprovable spook.

[GirlinContempt]

58. Wow, thanks for showing that

you have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever. At all.

[IntravenousDemilo]

68. You live up to your name very well.

There is no place in science for ideas for which there is no evidence.

[asthmaticeog]

60. Yes, it does.

Quite explicitly.

[GirlinContempt]

61. Show me.

On edit:
But remember we've had this conversation.

[asthmaticeog]

64. See post 63 n/t

[Ezlivin]

24. He can still do a good job

If you aren't comfortable with him, then by all means choose another doctor.

But he may be an excellent physician, despite his medieval religious views.

I used to be a hard-core fundamentalist who "believed" in creationism. If an atheist hired me to do anything, I would do my very best.

Why? Because I was "witnessing" to him/her through the quality of my work. A kind of "Hey, look at the great job I did. Will you listen to my spiel now?"

As a born-again atheist, I have no problem hiring or using the services of Christians. I'm after the best quality work I can afford. Just recently I hired a man who was a devout Christian. His bid for the work was the lowest and the resulting work was very, very good. I would gladly hire him again. Did religion factor into my decision? Not at all. When the man came into my house to discuss the scope of the job with me, he sat before a bookcase stuffed with "atheist-type" books. Oh, and he found out that I was an atheist (through our conversation).

He may be praying for me, but I don't care. I got a good job for a good price. And now he knows a "real" atheist and perhaps his world has opened up a bit.

[Ladyhawk]

29. As I mentioned above, I believe some fundies can compartmentalize

knowledge. They are able to believe one thing at work and another at church and home. However, one of the reasons they work here is because, as one acquaintance put it, they couldn't make it in the big city. So, I'm leery of local docs, anyway. :shrug:

It's not the "religion" I question, it's how the religion affects a doctor's ability to think critically. If he / she is able to compartmentalize thinking, then the religion may not affect his / her work at all. At work, bacteria can evolve into antibiotic-resistant strains, but at home and church evolution isn't true. :shrug: Maybe they are able to believe in "microevolution," which we all know is the same damn thing as "macroevolution." Still, it allows the doc to perform his/her job.

All I'm doing is presenting something to discuss. I wouldn't trust some fundy doctors at all. This one struck me as stiff, but he still might be an "okay" doctor. I wasn't impressed, but it is a rare local doctor that can impress me anyway. We just don't have many good ones to choose from up here. :shrug:

Peace.

[GaYellowDawg]

33. I don't know about that...

I came down with a bad case of viral labyrinthitis and had to go to a local ear/nose/throat clinic. There was really bad gospel music playing in the lobby and fundamentalist tracts on the tables. The receptionist, doctors and nurses were all very professional and very nice. They ran me through an extensive battery of tests for my balance (totally shot) and hearing (no damage, THANKFULLY). They gave me a very good rundown of their diagnosis.

Unfortunately, what had happened was nerve damage to the vestibulocochlear organ and/or its nerve and my central nervous system had to make an adjustment for altered input (which made the time frame for recovery pretty much "when it happens"). Nevertheless, they gave me some good tips on adjusting to it, told me what kinds of visual stimuli to avoid.

I would go back to them if needed. The fundamentalism had no effect on how good a clinic it was.

[Ladyhawk]

36. That's good to know. I have had some bad experiences with fundy docs,

but I also know about the phenomenon of "compartmentalization," which allows some to function as competent doctors. Somehow they can "believe" in evolution long enough to help you...or perhaps they believe in microevolution. Whatever.

I've never had a bad experience with a fundy dentist I know. He's very good at what he does. In fact he saved me from another dentist's bad diagnosis. On the other hand, fundy beliefs caused another doctor to really mess up my case, so it can happen.

Also, thank you for not resorting to flaming and for discussing this in a calm, rational manner. All I wanted to do was bring up the possibility that fundamentalist beliefs can adversely affect the performance of a doctor. I believe that in some cases, it can. I've experienced it. I've also had very good experiences with a fundy dentist.

It's amazing to me how some people automatically assume "flame" mode when rational discussion is called for.

[GaYellowDawg]

46. I didn't see any point in a flame. :-)

FWIW, I can't stand fundamentalism. I'm interested in science education, and fundamentalism, is, quite frankly, a foe of legitimate science. I completely understand your viewpoint.

As much as anything else, I wanted to maybe save you the trouble of going out of town if you didn't absolutely have to. Someone who raised antibiotic-resistant bacteria, though, really had a salient point.

Rational discussion is something that I can always use practice in. :-)

[GirlinContempt]

35. Discrimination is a shitty, shitty thing

to have happen to you.

EDIT:
And assuming fundy nutjob or stupidity isn't raising valid concerns, it's discrimination based on religion.

[GaYellowDawg]

48. While I agree that discrimination is a bad thing...

I'm not sure that this would qualify as discrimination; ladyhawk is not impeding this doctor's ability to practice medicine. She's simply going somewhere else. If someone refused to buy anything but organic foods, are other food manufacturers being discriminated against?

Something to consider: anything that disagrees with a given fundamentalist creed in the smallest fashion is considered evil by adherents to that creed. Science does not agree with a literal reading of the Bible or the Koran. Therefore, fundamentalism is, in a very essential way, antagonistic to science. Recognizing this is not discrimination. It's simple fact.

This means that I'd be a little more wary of a fundamentalist doctor. I don't think that I'd go out of town immediately, but I would be more apt to check around and see what that doctor's reputation is like.

Assuming that a fundamentalist is a nutjob or stupid is discriminatory, but considering that it might impair their job performance in certain fields is not. For example, I would never take a fundamentalist geologist seriously. I would also be hesitant to be treated by a general practitioner who was fundamentalist. How would s/he take precautions against antibiotic resistance? That doesn't mean that the GP wouldn't be good. I'd just be a little leery at first, that's all.

[GirlinContempt]

51. I didn't see anything in that post that indicated

that the doctor was a fundamentalist. Assuming that Christians are fundamentalists is just silly, and you should judge a person based on how they do their job, not the fact that their faith may somehow someway interfere with you even though they've gone through med school and taken an oath to help and heal you.
I don't go out and check on a Drs rep if I find out, somehow, that they are muslim, jewish, well actually anything. I go to find that out when I feel like I'm getting insufficient care from them, period.
Based on your definition of these 'fundies' I don't think they COULD be doctors.

I could take this to so many different levels where it WOULD NOT be ok to do, using all of this same reasoning.

"I'm not sure that this would qualify as discrimination; ladyhawk is not impeding this doctor's ability to practice medicine. She's simply going somewhere else. If someone refused to buy anything but organic foods, are other food manufacturers being discriminated against?"
If one food manufacturer that wasn't organic fed someone something that gave them food poisoning and then you met another food manufacturer that wasn't producing organic food and accused them of poisoning people based on the other guy, yeah, its discrimination.

[GaYellowDawg]

71. I disagree on a number of points.

First, if a doctor dismisses evolution as "nonsense" and proclaims a belief in creationism, it's a pretty fair bet that he's a fundamentalist, as is anyone who holds onto a literal creationist viewpoint after having taken science courses at the collegiate level. That's not unreasonable at all.

Second, please note that Ladyhawk didn't even mention the doctor's religion. She simply said "fundamentalist." Both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists dismiss evolution. It could have been either. I think it's awfully hard to level a charge of discrimination based on religion when the religion wasn't even mentioned.

Third, for the reasons I outlined earlier, it's perfectly legitimate to make additional inquiries based on fundamentalism. It's also perfectly legitimate to reject someone in a particular field based on fundamentalism. I wouldn't care whether a plumber or an architect was fundamentalist, but I'd yank my kids out of a science classroom run by a fundamentalist in a cold heartbeat. When the fundamentalism has the potential to affect job performance, additional scrutiny isn't discrimination. It's wisdom, especially when it comes to health issues.

Fourth, it's entirely possible to disregard evolution and get a medical degree. All that the doc had to do was to regurgitate the appropriate answers while in his classes. The problem is this: once the doc gets out of med school and past boards, he can disregard anything having to do with evolution that he pleases.

Fifth, you have zero evidence from that post that Ladyhawk not accused that doctor to another one, or to any kind of standards or practice board. She didn't mention his name here. She did not impede his ability to practice medicine in any fashion.

Discrimination is a very ugly phenomenon. It's also a very ugly charge. One should take care in levying such a charge.

[GirlinContempt]

75. On most of your points

I agree with you. And I jumped the gun a bit.

Of course it's possible to get a degree in something you totally don't believe in, I guess my biggest confusion was WHY anyone would do that.

And no, additional scrutiny isn't discrimination, but assuming that they are somehow less intelligent because of their faith IS. And lumping someone in with 'fundies' (different from fundamentalists in the usage of the word) based on a statement of belief is wrong.

[knitter4democracy]

37. As a doctor's wife, this is what I would do.

1. Find out from the state medical board if he's had any sanctions. That should be public knowledge. If he has, don't go see him. Sanctions only happen after a lot of crap has happened, so if he's been slapped, run away.

2. Call up the medical floor and ask to speak to the head nurse. Ask him or her if s/he would send Mom or Dad to see that guy. Then do the same with the surgery floor nurse. The nurses know. They can't recommend, but they can say yes or no on whether they'd see him or not.

3. If both of those turn out clean, reconsider your position. My husband, an internist, works with an evangelical who's a good doctor. They may argue politics, but I would see him if I were a patient there.

There are many doctors around here who believe more in something like Intelligent Design. It's not that they're stupid, it is that they see so many miraculous things that they start wondering if there is a God behind all of it. The human body is an amazingly beautifully complex thing, and it takes a lot more faith to think it all just slowly happened over time rather than Someone or Something intervening. That said, they fight like heck to keep evolution taught in our local schools.

4. There's nothing wrong with driving to get the right doctor. I don't see a local Ob/Gyn because of my disease being apparently too much for the local docs here. That, and the one I saw whom was recommended by another doc in Hubby's practice was not the doctor for me--she started arguing with a specialist's plan because she hadn't heard of it, which meant that she hadn't researched it much. Ultimately, you have to go with your gut and get the right doctor for you.

[obxhead]

39. Bum some gas money and go to another town.

[Wapsie B]

40. I think some of them love the assurance that fundamentalism gives them.

There's no fuzzy uncomfortable grey area here with eternal salvation. It's either black or white; save or the damned. They don't want to have to think and wonder if they picked the winning team with something as important as the afterlife. They go and don't have to question a thing. They just accept what they're told. It's very comforting to people even highly educated folks.

[Az]

41. It is vital that you trust your doctor

Lack of trust can lead to you withholding information or worse. Even if the doctor is completely able to provide an unbiased care for you despite conflicts in their belief and profession your lack of trust could lead to complications.

[Ladyhawk]

42. Ever been discriminated against by a fundy doc? I have!

I don't want to go into the particulars because it was a very personal matter. All I want to say is that I did NOT intend to start a flame war, here. I just wanted to discuss whether or not fundamentalist beliefs can hamper the critical thinking skills of some doctors. This is a fair question since critical thinking skills are of the utmost importance when it comes to diagnoses.

I've had some very bad experiences with fundy doctors. I've also had some good experiences. All I wanted was to explore this topic with others. Some have shared good (or bad) experiences with fundy docs. The worst experience I had I will not share here, but it was directly related to the fundamentalist beliefs of the doctor in question. On the other hand, a fundamentalist dentist saved me from a bad diagnosis. He also kept me from owing a shitload of money for dental surgeries. If it hadn't been for him, I don't know what I would have done.

Sheesh...why must everything erupt into flames around here? Why can't we discuss these things reasonably instead of assuming someone is an intolerant bigot who sees things only one way? I was (and am) open-minded on this issue, but something about this particular doctor has me on edge.

"How fundamentalist beliefs can affect the performance of doctors" = fair question. Perhaps the answer is it affects some and not others? Is that so bigoted? No. Is that discriminatory? Yes. I discriminate against doctors who have shown they cannot be trusted.

DU, thou art constantly shrouded in kindling and gasoline. Was this flamebait? I don't think so.

[Az]

43. Belief taps into some of the most emotionally significant things

Its vital we discuss such things. But it is foolish to expect that they will not sometimes boil over.

[GirlinContempt]

44. Let's put it this way.

I don't think that the topic itself should be flame bait, but I think the language used in your post was inflammatory and basically read like this guy said he was a creationist so he was a 'fundie nutjob'. Even just 'fundie' is enough of a stretch from just saying you believe in creationism.
You never said anything about any kind of critical thinking skill that this Dr exhibited, except that you happened to find out he believed in creationism. You didn't tie that in to what it was about his belief that called his skills as a Doctor or his intelligence into question.
You didn't even ASK the question. And you didn't say anything about what would cause you to mistrust this person.

[Taverner]

45. Where in the name of all that is pure and decent do you live????

Good gawd it sounds like a fundie compound or something!!!

[DanCa]

47. Good luck on your surgery.

:hug: Please keep us posted and get well soon. :hug:

[bliss_eternal]

50. Go with your gut, LadyHawk!

You have the feelings that you have for a reason. The only time I have any regrets at all, is when I don't listen to that inner voice.

Seriously, I'm always sorry when I don't.

[IntravenousDemilo]

57. Lose the doc...

...and refuse payment for your last visit. Should he ask why, tell him. If he takes you to court, take him all the way to the Supreme Court. There'll be plenty of lawyers willing to take your case pro bono.

[bettyellen]

74. i went to a coked out young republican ear nose throat guy: TORTURE

i really should have reported that fuckhead. no one that stoned should shove a loooong tube up your nose.
:(

[IntravenousDemilo]

77. Though admittedly he does have some experience...

putting things up noses. You'd think a ear/nose/throat doctor would know better than to do something that's that destructive to the sinus passages, though.

[bettyellen]

78. he giggled through like a foot of hose shoving.

he was numb, i was not. i'm not sure why i didn't pummel him. i think it was the shock. or intense pain. one of those. grrrrrrr.

[IntravenousDemilo]

79. Hmm...

Well, the only time I've ever had cocaine was from a doctor who was checking my nasal passages a few days prior to a deviated septum correction. He needed the coke to dilate the passages -- two blasts up each nostril with a solution of 75 per cent coke, 25 per cent alcohol. The drive home along the bike path was very interesting, but I couldn't swallow the cabbage rolls I had for supper because my throat was numb.

[bettyellen]

80. oh he used something up my nose, but i wasn't numb yet when he did it.

so i was a little freaked. but in a half hour i was numb, so it got better. he was numb before i got there. i guess i'm just jealous.
:0

[XemaSab]

76. Go to the fundie

He's probably a competent doctor, and are you honestly likely to find someone better in Modesto?

:hide:

[u4ic]

81. I have no idea if or what religion

any of my doctors practice. I think that's the way it should be. It has no place in a dr's office, unless it's through the patient.

Sorry, doesn't answer your question, though.

If he makes you rinse your ears with holy water, RUN!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robeson]

82. If a doctor went through medical school, after taking tons of biology...

...and chemistry classes, and still believed in Creationism, then I'd have a problem with that doctor. He sounds like a Christo-Moonie to me.