Should Cats be let outside -- and why or why not?

[Cats Against Frist]

So I just got in a snit with the people at my local animal shelter.

I wanted to adopt one short-haird, non-white, female cat, of any age, that is good with a young child. I think that having a good practical fit, as well as an emotional one, is very important. My specifications: non-white, female and short-haired were arrived at by years of cat owning, in regard to what would be the best "fit" for my family.

Another thing: I've lived in the country, in rural towns, in suburbia, in huge cities. In the country, cats live outside. In Seattle, all the cats that I knew were indoor/outdoor cats. If someone declawed their cat, or kept them exclusively inside, they might as well have just said that they planned to skin the cat alive, and eat it in front of its mother.

I live in a rural town, have a big house, and a huge yard -- and, per my experience from the Pac NW, I was planning on getting a cat that would live inside, and be able to go out via "kitty door," whenever it wants to.

When I told the animal shelter people this, they responded with, "well, you wouldn't let your child outside, unsupervised, would you?"

Which is LUDICROUS, because equating my cat with my child, IMHO, should require me to be hospitalized. Second, the difference between cultural spheres and the living arrangements of cats is IMMENSE. Like I said, in rural places, the cats live in the garage -- if they're lucky. Seattle was very laid-back -- "you gotta let the cat out, dude," and the staff reacted with HORROR that I would even consider letting the cat get a whiff of fresh air. After that, they only showed me mangy, diseased-looking cats that didn't fit my description.

Also, it seemed like these people were way too attached to the cats. I was saying that it made me sad that the cats had to live in the cages. And they're like, "well, they get to get out of the cages," and I said, "you know, but it's not the same," and they're like, "they're very well taken care of, here," and I said, but it's not the same as a home," and she said, "there's nothing wrong with their lives here," and got a little snooty. I'm thinking: why are you fucking trying to adopt the cats, then?

It was a bad experience. What say you about the indoor thing?

[Kni7es]

1. My cat...

...is declawed, lives inside, and is very, very fat. Fat like Republicans are stupid. Maybe not that fat. Close to.

It was my parents' decision, and I fought them tooth and nail over it. He's miserable, and will escape at the first oppurtunity out the door. And for being an obese domesticated furball, he's done pretty well outside (once he got let out, and returned later with a bird he caught. I still have NO IDEA how he managed that with no claws).

[NV Whino]

2. i agree with you

I, too, live in a rural area. Cats are free to come and go via cat door. They know where safety is and how to get there. I'm off the road so car are not a problem either.

These rescue places get a little strange sometimes. I went to mine a few weeks ago lookiing to adopt a couple of female kittens. Although there were people in the place, they told me I had to make an appointment and come back. They, also, at one time had a thing about "outdoor" kitties. They have since had a change of heart on that one and do have many semi feral (but fixed) cats that they will let be adopted for "barn duty."

[TimeChaser]

3. My kitties are fairly terrified of the outdoors.

We let them out onto the porch or front yard under supervision, but they get either scared or bored and wander back inside eventually.


Please also keep in mind that domestic cats running free do horrible things to native wildlife.

[friesianrider]

4. I live in a rural area, and my cats aren't "lucky" to live in the garage.

In fact, I don't know anyone in my rural area (except for two assholes who live down from me a bit) who let their cats outdoors.

People do all kinds of sick shit to cats in rural areas (and urban areas too) - trapping and relocating (such was the case in the Pets group), trapping and killing, trapping and using as bait, trapping and dumping at a shelter, shooting...cats that are permitted outdoors are at risk for being hit by cars, attacked/chased by dogs, attacked/chased/tormented/killed by adults or kids, etc etc. They are also at risk for attacks by other animals and the diseases they carry. They can be scared away by a dog or other animal and feel unsafe to return home. Many owls pick up and eat cats, as do wolves, coyotes, and some foxes. Additionally, outdoor-access cats kill many forms of wildlife which irritates many people. Many enjoy the birds in their yard and if your cat is always there bothering and killing the birds - wow, talk about inviting them to hurt your cat. And I have over 12 acres and my cats RARELY stay on my property, so it isn't a matter of "I have a large yard." Other people don't want your cats in their yard.

There is really no reason to let cats outdoors, in my opinion. I've had cats that were outdoor-access before I got them and you know what...they got over wanting to go outside. They just aren't safe outdoors, period.

The sound like they care a lot about their cats, and I can say that from years of working in rescue their reaction was prefectly understandable. I wish more shelter workers felt this way about their animals.

IMHO, if you care and love about your cats, you keep them indoors always.

[Cats Against Frist]

9. Where I grew up -- rural RURAL

Most people have at least 5 - 10 cats and they usually aren't permitted indoors. A lot of that takes place on farms, but I still know a lot of families who have cats that live outside.

I think it's a real cultural difference -- and I would pin it on "rural" vs. "urban," but it was ultra-liberal people who owned cats in metro-Seattle that were the fiercest, cats-out advocates that I've really ever come across. I don't know if they just consider it more "organic," for a cat to get outdoors, or what. I think people have varying opinions -- and good reasons, like you listed -- to back them up, but it just seems weird to try to restrict adoptions to people who want to let their cat outside, if it wants to go out. Like living in a cage, and facing euthanasia is a better alternative.

:shrug:

I'm not saying one is that much better than the other, just that I wasn't prepared for their reaction, and I thought it seemed a bit zealous. Maybe it's the prevailing opinion. That's why I made a poll.

[misanthrope]

36. Hear, hear! Allowing...

...your cats, or dogs, to roam freely outside is irresponsible in many ways.

And, yes, your cat understands the dynamics of vehicles and traffic about as well as a small child. THAT'S why they made the correlation they did.

[Fox Mulder]

122. Amen to that.

I never let my cat out for those very reasons.

[XemaSab]

5. Cats should be indoors!

Indoor cats live an average of 7 years longer than outdoor cats!

Letting cats out is cruel to the cat and horrible for wildlife!

http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/

[Cats Against Frist]

11. Thank you for the link!

:hi:

[Missy Vixen]

6. We live in a rural area

30 miles east of Seattle. I would no more let our three felines outside than cut off an arm. Those owners that let their cats outside here usually make sure they're a nice snack for the coyotes and cougars that wander around. (One of our neighbors has lost two cats now. I'm wondering how many more she'll lose before she puts this together...)

Our two big Maine Coon boys and our scrappy eight-pound female pound cat are the darlings of our home. We want them to have a long and happy life, so they have more toys than they could ever play with, plenty of window space to sun themselves, and cuddling on demand.

Julie

[purr]

7. I did before my favorite cat got hit and killed...

She came up to my door with her head half smashed in. I had to take her to the emerg. vet to be put down. That was the last day I EVER let one of my cats out.

Before that, My mom just informed me not too long ago another one of my cats that I deeply cared for as a child was shot and killed by my then neighbor. His 6 yr old daughter yelled out 'did you shoot and kill the cat,daddy?' after my mom heard gun shots and we never seen him again. This cat was the sweetest thing you'd ever meet.

Besides, I also have two Sphynx's that cant go out due to becoming sunburned and/or frozen. I will take them out on leashes but other than that they're indoor ONLY.

[fudge stripe cookays]

17. Me too Purr.

It practically killed me.

My Larry was hit in front of our house on Halloween 1989. He could tell the sound of my mom's car, and would always come running across the street. It was a pretty busy street. And he ran right in front of a car. It happened right in front of my mom.

He was all bashed up, had bitten off half his little tongue, and was spasming uncontrollably from internal bleeding and pain. He was covered in blood.

My mom had a Toyota station wagon, and we sped to the pet emergency center with his head in my lap, me sobbing uncontrollably.

I will never let another cat out, because I couldn't put myself through that ever again.

fsc

[arwalden]

8. Back In The Day When I Had Cats...

... they would come and go through a kitty door as they pleased. Outside during the day... inside at night. (The only disadvantage to having a kitty door is that they would bring little gifts to me and leave them on the kitchen floor: moles, small snakes, mice, half-eaten birds... lovely!)

[bertha katzenengel]

10. Do what you must, and don't let anyone judge you. Here's my take:

There are some very good reasons to keep cats in always. I am an advocate of keeping cats in. But I can't/don't practice it at home. With eight cats in less than 2000 sq ft, they were driving each other and us nuts. We're systematically having them all microchipped, and once Skittles is spayed we're putting in a cat door.

It is a WRENCH to let any of them out because I am afraid they won't come back or they'll get hurt or killed. But they are too unhappy inside, and too happy outside. And after all, they're cats. Their physical survival skills and instincts far surpass ours. And they can mutilate or kill many would-be attackers. They're tough little critters.

Do what you must and don't let anyone judge you. :hi:

[Cats Against Frist]

12. I think that's where my hesitancy lies in keeping cats in ALL THE TIME

And I'm not saying that it's right or wrong -- but I simply view them as animals, and it seems to me that most animals enjoy being outside. There are lots of PEOPLE who just like being outside -- so why not a cat?

I think the people who believe that cats should go outside aren't being cruel, but simply believe that they're letting them have part of their "nature."

But, who am I to say, for sure? I'm not a cat.

[LisaL]

35. Because world is full of disgusting people, cats can't be outside.

There are people who actually do try run over a cat, on purpose. If there wasn't so many assholes around, then maybe cats could go out.

[friesianrider]

41. You're absolutely right, lizzy.

If I could trust people to be normal, compassionate individuals, I may consider letting my cats outdoors. Probably not because of other animals that would prey on them and the chance someone would accidentally hit them, but it'd sure make me feel a lot better.

Was just telling someone the other day who was trying to humanely trap an unneutered cat that they can't leave the cat trapped very long outside. A friend of mine had a cat trapped for a few hours until she could get home and get him to the vet to be fixed, and some neighborhood assholes stole the cat in the humane trap and tossed it in a nearby lake.

Again, just my personal opinion, but anyone who truly loves their cats should realize the dangers of allowing a cat outdoors are far too great. I think ferals (in terms of TNR) are a different story, but for people-friendly cats...absolutely indoor only.

[flvegan]

13. Ask them if they believe in TNR (trap/neuter/release) of ferals.

They probably do. Now ask them how many cats are euthanized in the town/city/county where you live. Maybe not by THAT shelter, but somebody, somewhere doesn't have room for another coming into the sheltering system. By adopting an altered, vaccinated cat, you create space for one that would be euthanized for space (again, maybe not at that shelter, but they could take in another cat that might wind up elsewhere).

Now, if it's a deal-killer that your newly adopted cat go outside sometimes, well then they must not really buy into TNR, which is EXACTLY what you are (in a MUCH better way) doing. You are just tnr-ing a cat that also comes inside. A stray is a stray. So long as that cat is happy, and he/she does minimal wildlife eradication, then so be it.

[Kashka-Kat]

14. Like most things in life-- there is no straight yes or no answer

Depends on the cat. Depends on the situation. Depends on the cat's human & willingness to supervise/train the cat (my cats know the drill--they only go out when I'm around to supervise and they go in when I'm not at home. As opposed to the care eless bozo neighbors who sometimes leave town and forget they left their cat out.)

I know what you mean about some of those shelter workers who'd rather keep their depressed cats (you can tell by the body language) in their cages for months on end than consider that maybe a "good home" isn't necessarily what THEY say it is. I've had cats longer than some of those naive people have been on this planet!

It's sad, but maybe you could just bite your tongue in order to get a cat. For now don't decide whether it'll be an indoor or outdoor cat--wait till you see what the CAT wants. Some cats will never tolerate being indoors, & as long as they live will spend every waking moment fixated on trying to escape. Other cats really honestly truly could take it or leave it, don't care one way or another. And then I've had several former strays who were NOT the least bit interested in being outside--after having been on the streets.

Have heard that plastic deer fencing is cheap and good for cat enclosures--they can't climb up it. I think that's what I'll do for my future cat, the one I get after my trusted street-smart 14 year old calico (who always comes when called) departs this earth.

[LisaL]

32. Oh gee. So now you are saying he should lie in order to get a cat?

Considering his DU name is cats against Frist, you are suggesting he does exactly what Frist did on order to fraudulently obtain the animal.
Nice, real nice.
:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

[Extend a Hand]

49. I don't think supervision always requires

continuous direct observation.

adj : under observation or under the direction of a superintendent or overseer; "supervised play"

If you have trained a cat to come in on command then they can be allowed to go out with out constant observation and still be adequately supervised. To me, that falls in the category of "under the direction of a superintendent"

[Kashka-Kat]

126. yeah and you know what... part of the training to "come in on command"

was my cat understanding that if she came inside when I wanted her to, she would be able to go outside again when she wanted to. Cats are terrifically smart, reasoning creatures. If they think (and they do think) you're never going to let them out again, then of course the outdoor loving cat is not going to come when he escapes and youre frantically running around calling them. My calico and I have a real understanding by now. Yes, there's a bit of a learning curve--a young cat would have to be watched very closely and I do agree w/ some of the posters that some environments are just too hostile....

[Patiod]

143. We have the same understanding

She is only out when we're home, and she always comes when she's called. It helps that we reward her coming when she's called with a cat treat. Most nights, though, there's no need to call - she wanders in and out, and we just close the door when she wanders in around bedtime.

We also live WAY far back off the road, have few kids or teens anywhere nearby, and we know she sticks around the house.

If we go too many days without letting her outside she lays on the floor in front of the door and wails.

[Kashka-Kat]

118. Ow! My head hurts

No need to get violent about it.

I suggested he sidestep the entire issue-- why even get into it with them? Maybe it's different in other places but I just got a lecture--didn't have to sign a sworn statement or anything. I actually agree w/ the shelter workers in many/most cases, I don't think a cat HAS to go outside. But you do need a "plan B" for the ones that have been out before and know what they're missing and are 100% totally miserable and obsessed and dart out the door every chance they get. Whether thats leash training, enclosure, or supervised outdoor time--I don't know, depends on the good sense of the cat's owner/caretaker.

[newyawker99]

15. I think that they are safer in the house. When I had

cats I did not let them go outside.

[caty]

16. I say keep them in.

I have three that only leave the house once a year to go to the vet and they are very happy and healthy.
I worked at a vet's office for several years, and I can't tell you how many cats were brought in for stitches and surgery do to fights and accidents they got into outside of their homes. Not to mention deceases, fleas, and ticks that they picked up. And, there are some really sick people out there who get their kicks out of torturing and mutilating cats.

[Patiod]

144. The fights are the main reason we limit her outdoor time

We have a bunch of ferals in the back of the property -- I call them "the bad girls". She mixed it up with them once, and I had to take her to the vet - I think she's learned to avoid their "turf" and I don't see them around hers either.

[riderinthestorm]

18. I own 10 cats

2 are house cats; in and out all day with a cat door. They are 10 and 12 years old.

8 are barn cats ranging in age from 2 - 18 years old (I have never solicited for a barn cat at a shelter - they are always dumped and find their way to my place). My cats die of the usual old age problems: heart issues, cancer etc. I have never lost one to cougars (?!), foxes, raccoons or coyotes.

I can't imagine having a cat that lived indoors all of the time. My cats would be miserable if they weren't out at least some part of every day (the house cats), or all day and night (barn cats). My barn cats even have "warm areas" like the tack room, feed room, viewing room etc where they can go and they still prefer the loft and other mouse-rich areas.

They don't prey on wildlife - they prey on mice and other rodents that get in the feed. I don't know what I would do without my outdoor cats - they are an integral part of the farmyard ecology.

[Runcible Spoon]

37. yes, this is true.

my parents have barn cats, and they are feral. I forced my parents to spay/neuter them, since last fall they were surprised with a (admittedly quite lovely) bunch of kittens and I gto stuck having to socialize them and find homes. But the barn cats are not pets, they are well-cared for in that they have soft warm places to sleep and catfood to eat and they are given periodic inoculations but they are not soft cuddly friends. They live to prowl the rodents in the barn and help keep my horses healthy. But I would never have a cat like that in suburban or urban area.

[riderinthestorm]

42. My field service vet takes care of the cats

Any cat that walks in the barn door will be trapped, neutered and innoculated by the vet asap. We work on socializing them to whatever degree they will accept it for a couple of weeks (they are kept in the viewing room during this time while the stitches heal), and then they are free to go.

But they never go! They stay and join the "herd" (is there a special name for a group of cats, 2 or more?).

They have free choice feed and they always have water.

I know there are strong feelings about keeping cats inside all of the time but after watching them outdoors for 40 plus years I can't even imagine what it does to a cat's psyche to not be allowed to be the predators they are born to be.

I haven't lived in an urban or suburban setting (except college but I wasn't paying a lot of attention to cat living conditions at the time!) so it's fair to say I only know one side of the argument here but it seems cruel to keep them cooped up all of the time.

[LisaL]

53. It's cruel to let them out, and then find them laying dead by the side

of the road. I realize barn cats can not be possibly kept inside, but then I doubt the owners of the barn would cry if one, two, or more cats go missing one day. Of course if you view animals as disposable, you not going to worry one of them is not going to show up one day-you can always get more.

[riderinthestorm]

60. nice (erroneous) ASS-umptions

I am the owner of the barn.

I do care.

I have never once had any of my cats dead by the side of the road.

I do not consider them disposable or I wouldn't go to the effort of neutering, vaccinating and annual checkups.

You do a serious disservice to those of us who do maintain barn animals, yes including cats, whereby the cats are an integral part of keeping the entire population of the farm healthy.

I am offended by your assumptions.

[SixStrings]

140. Thank you. This is such a stupid argument.

It all depends where you live. I live in the country with no neighbors. My cat loves it outside and on an average day is in and out 4-5 times. She always sleeps inside as well.
It's an ANIMAL people! I think it's cruel to keep them penned up inside all day. How would you people like that?

[Runcible Spoon]

64. wtf.

first of all, most people I know who have barn cats adopted them from Death Row. These are the ugly, wild, disfigured ones nobody would give a home to because little Anna didn't think kitty was cute. My neighbor used to work at the Humane Society, and took home as many death row cats as she could. And when she got too many, they ran away and hung around our barn. Don't be so freaking idealistic. These barn cats have a better life than a lot of the human population of the world, and here you are passing judgment. Don't presume that we don't care about them or that we wouldn't mourn for them if they died (which incidentally hasn't happened). I better never hear of you discussing animals as disposable unless you don't have pets. What did I just assume? That you merely use your animals for your own personal emotional gratification because the rotten truth is that if the cat had its own way it would probably prefer to be outside? Or if Kitty ran away you'd probably get a new one real soon? Well, I am not passing judgment on you for keeping your cats inside, and I keep my pet cat inside, but most of these throw-away pound cats have it pretty fucking good compared to what might have happened to them.

[LisaL]

66. Actually, my cats are terrified of the outside.

They never try to get out, and when taken out on a leash, freak out and don't want to be there. So, I guess I have to let my cats to do whatever the hell they want to do, which would be to stay inside.
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
And to prove it-does this cat looks happy to be outside to you?
P.S. Apparently persian cats are inferior, and maybe shouldn't be considered cats at all, so, I removed his picture.

[riderinthestorm]

69. Now you're avoiding your own arguments!

You make a lot of unsubstantiated, stereotypical, lousy commentary on farm owners and their pets.

And then you backtrack with this?

A picture of your (I'm guessing) Persian kitty and you are somehow trying to make comparisons to my situation? And you think you are having a discussion here?

Look, you are the one who brought up a lot of ugly commentary about those of us who successfully keep cats outdoors and when confronted with something that doesn't match your stereotype you fall back on a picture of your cat.

I echo the other poster... WTF?

[LisaL]

72. I realize that it's very hard to keep a feral cat inside.

But that doesn't mean someone should adopt an non-feral cat from a shelter, and then let the cat outside, because the cat has to do whatever he wants to do. As for my cat being persian, what exactly do you have against persian cats?

[Runcible Spoon]

76. I guess we should just gas them all then eh?

because sister, that's what happens. Every day. Thousands of 'em. Probably somewhere right now as we speak. So I guess we are just fucking mean asshole for giving a few of these a shot, even if it ISN'T airconditioned, quilted, pampered, and manicured.

And as far as for your cat being Persian, well the other poster didn't say anything negative whatsoever, but fuck this you brought it on yourself, so I'LL tell you what I think about that: beautiful cat. BUT unless this cat was a gift or a rescue or an adoption, what fucking right do YOU have adopting exotic expensive cat breeds and denying a perfectly fine unwanted stray cat a nice home while dispensing self-righteous bullshit at anyone who doesn't toe your ingrown view on things? And honestly I don't give a shit if people want to buy expensive cats as pets as long as they get good homes. I'm just giving you a taste of your own hypocritical rhetorical devices.

[LisaL]

85. I have the same rights you got. In case you didn't notice, it's a

free country. Or was a free country-whatever. So, I am going to do things the way I want to do them-whatever you approve or not. Just like you not going to change whatever it is you are doing because I tell you I don't like what you are doing. As for cats, it doesn't matter whether it's a persian or not- I wouldn't let them to be outside.

[Runcible Spoon]

91. you really don't understand rhetorical devices like straw men, do you?

I guess I need 50 rolling eyes smilies to make sarcasm apparent. OK here ya go: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[LisaL]

93. See-even you can figure it out.

[Runcible Spoon]

95. ummm....OK?

I'm in the fuckign Twilight Zone here. WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[riderinthestorm]

78. Unlike you , I will actually address your points

I have nothing against Persians, I just simply find no credible rationale for the picture of your cat in response to my post.

The shelters near me ARE adopting out feral cats as barn cats to do (gasp) whatever they want - which is what cats have been doing since time immemorial, hunt rodents.

Locally the shelter that I know which does this is called the Anderson Animal Shelter in Elgin, Illinois. Look it up - they have an adoption program specially set up for farmers. so clearly there are shelters that believe differently from you - they believe the cats will have a better quality of life out on a farm than stuck in the cage at the shelter all day.

An analogy can be made here for a house cat stuck in the house all day versus the kind of life I provide for my cats.

And I still find your asssumptions really wrong and stereotypical and offensive. I would fancy to say I know many, many more farm owners, managers and barn people than you, and NONE of them perceive of their barn cats as disposable!

[LisaL]

81. You implied in your post that my cats would want to be outside,

which is not true.
As for the barn cats, yes, otherwise an-adoptable feral cats are given to barn owners. But most shelters won't adopt pet cats to barns.

[riderinthestorm]

86. Please point out where I implied your cat would want to be outside?

I never did.

I am trying to counter YOUR blatent statements that outdoor cats are being treated cruelly and are unsafe.

I resent that.

And more shelters than you know ARE adopting out their cats to barn owners recognizing that kind of life IS eminently suitable for a cat.

[Runcible Spoon]

87. actually I think you should be addressing that post to me.

I "implied" (in quotes, notice) not because I actually know your cats or their habits or possibly how years of paranoid overmothering has shaped their personalities, but simply to construct a straw man and demonstrate how ridiculous it was. Please pay attention or this will cease to be challenging or fun for me and then it will be back to my good ole' research paper!

[LisaL]

92. Yes, I am paranoid. Maybe I should just dump them out, and see

how they will manage. It might be fun. Will they come back or won't they?
That is the question.

[Runcible Spoon]

94. OK this has ceased to be entertaining for me.

either you bother reading the posts or not. But I don't have to sit around in Micky Mouse land trying to explain sarcasm, strawmen, etc. to you. have a nice life and please stick to cats. just sayin'.

[LisaL]

96. By-by. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

[Runcible Spoon]

100. wait..you know what DOORS are?

does your house have them? How's Salman Rushdie? does he like cats? (OK now I'm really going :evilgrin:)

[riderinthestorm]

98. Me too.

I'm finding the purposeful avoidance of discussion annoying now instead of fruitful.


Good luck on your paper. I'm off for barn check (where I will probably even - gasp again - pet some of the kitties dozing in their cat beds!)

[Runcible Spoon]

101. here's some carrots for your guys

wait, since we're so cruel maybe I should just give you some arsenic for your animals.

[Runcible Spoon]

71. way to, like, not adress any of my points

and if ONE sarcastic rolling eyes smiley doesnt get your point across, TRY EIGHT!

[fleabert]

106. I believe it's called a 'colony' of cats...nt

[miss_kitty]

19. my cats have been indoor/outdoor kitties

but I think if I were to get another-I might want it to stay indoors all the time.

One of my neighbours HAD to indoor her indoor outdoor kitty-she has a little net tunnel out the window for him and he seems to be ok with that. But he'd prefer to be outdoors. He was declawed in a previous life and just picks fights all the time. :silly:

[Orsino]

20. I won't.

Cats aren't children, but they are still ill-equipped to survive in the modern world, and the pure meanness out there scares me. I'm keeping them safe inside.

[no name no slogan]

21. I had a cat killed by the neighbor's dog

It was outside and the neighbor's dog got off its leash. The dog bit the cat across the back, breaking her spine and killing her instantly. The dog was not normally aggressive, and even lived with another cat. It was a freakish incident, and one I'll never forget.

Since that episode seven years ago, I've NEVER, EVER let my cats outside. And I NEVER, EVER will.

Keep them safe. Keep them indoors.

[RebelOne]

22. No animal rescue group will adopt out a cat or dog if they know

that the animal will be outside unsupervised. A dog that will be outside during the day must have a fenced-in yard.

[Beware the Beast Man]

23. I lease, so I have to keep my cat indoors.

Some will curse you up and down if you let your cat out. I don't think I would even if I could. He loves to get out, but once he does, it's like leaving the Matrix for him- he gets terrified and wants back in.

[LeftyMom]

24. To be honest, I agree with them

It's a dangerous world out there and whenever possible cats should be exclusively indoor. Yeah, it's thier job to find kitties homes, but it's also thier job to find the right home.

They should have explained thier stance on indoor vs outdoor kitties to you in a gentler and more educational manner. Implying that your cat-raising habits are equivalent to child abuse isn't going to win you over to thier side, no matter how sincerely they believe it.

[LisaL]

31. There is nothing wrong with them saying

that cat shouldn't be let out. They should try to find best homes for these cats. And not sugar coat it for people who are not going to follow their rules.

[Cats Against Frist]

45. Well that was part of what pissed me off

I honestly feel that a cat is not equivalent to my son, no matter how much we want a cat, or how much we'll love it. It bugs the hell out of me, when people try to draw that comparison -- so, that was what set me off. If I have a cat, and something unexpected happens, I'd be very upset, cry for a week or so, and put a picture of it up on the wall. If something unexpected happened to my four-year-old boy, somebody had better pump me full of benzophadrine and put me in a suicide ward. If they have a hard time "warming up," to me, because I thought it was OK to let a cat outside, I think I'm warranted in being a little standoff-ish, because the shelter worker would say something so dumb and insensitive.

And, even if they're "right," or it's their prerrogative to let me adopt a cat, or not -- I think that, like you said, I, as a person who is obviously willing to listen, and explore this dilemma (I'm looking into one of those elaborate cat-fencing things), that they could have explained it a little better. Like I said, I grew up around outside cats, and I was backing that up with woo-woo cat-loving Seattle vegetarian liberals, who believe that their indoor/outdoor cats should have birthday parties. I had no idea that there was a major movement to keep cats indoors, or that shelters thought that living in a cage and facing certain death was preferable to having a kitty door.

That's why the tift-i-ness, on my part. I also questioned whether or not I have PMS, and that's why it rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not saying that it's not, perhaps, safer, and wiser, in certain worldviews, to keep a cat inside. I guess I question the premise that a domesticated cat doesn't need or want to be outside. In my experience, it almost seems like it builds a cat's self-esteem, or something. The proudest look I've ever seen on a cat's face is on the face of my friend's indoor-only cat that got out and caught a really big bug.

I don't know -- I'm open to keeping the cat inside, if that's whats called for, or that's the agreement I make, the fencing idea, or seeing what the cat wants to do, or what's safe, in this neighborhood. I don't know. I appreciate the input from everyone.

[Oeditpus Rex]

25. My cat has her own door

I installed it after we moved here (a rural area) and I observed that she wouldn't go beyond the yards immediately on either side nor into the street. She won't even go with me to get the mail, but waits for me in front of the house. (It's a private community — okay, a mobile home park — with speed bumps, so speeding cars aren't a factor.)

My feeling is that pets are, at base, wild animals, and it's against nature to keep them confined. I wouldn't keep a bird in a cage or fish in an aquarium, either.

Spare me the horror stories about evil people, etc. They can just as easily be applied to humans as the potential victims, and if I had kids I wouldn't shelter them, either. Living in fear isn't much of a life.

Lucy may not live as long as a cat who's locked indoors, but she won't lay around in the sun and get fat, either. She'll be outside part of the time, doing what's natural to her.

And FWIW, I absolutely adore her. Try to tell me I don't and you've got a fight on your hands.

[LisaL]

34. Did you spay her? Do you think that's natural?

If you had a dog, would you let your dog run around freely? Isn't that against the law now? Why should you let your cat run around freely?

[Oeditpus Rex]

39. I have a better question

Why should you try to impose your will upon me?

[LisaL]

40. I can't impose my will on you. But then it's my right to not let someone

who I see as unfit to adopt any cats from me, just as this shelter is doing.

[Cats Against Frist]

48. I just think "unfit" is a little arbitrary

To say that someone should not own a cat, because they're letting the cat go outside, is damn crazy, in my opinion. And I'm not even saying that I've decided. I'm weighing the options -- and I won't lie and adopt a cat that I intend to let out, if I didn't agree to it.

Read my post above at why I got a little huffy with the people. Of course, it's their decision to decide to adopt a cat to me, or not -- but I can also, just as easily go spend a hundred and fifty bucks more, and get a purebred, or go pick up one of the numerous farm kittens that are advertised in the local "shopper," if I'm that insistent about letting the cat go outside. It's not like they can keep this horribly "unfit" person from getting a cat. They can keep their bored cats locked up in little cages, and create their own little bored-cat paradise. It sounds like they'd rather keep them there, anyway.

I have no problem discussing this topic, but I'd like rational discussion from the shelter people, and not the ignorant comparison to my child -- or immediately dismiss me because I thought that an animal could go outside, if it wanted to -- which seems to be a fairly common opinion.

[LisaL]

50. No responsible breeder would let you buy a cat from them, if they

knew you plant to allow that cat outside.

[Cats Against Frist]

65. I don't know -- this whole thing makes me feel like

I laid down to take a nap in 1987, and I woke up eighteen years later and Fluffy is cutting her kibble with a knife and fork at the dinner table. My parents live in the country, and they've bought at least two labrador retrievers and one beagle from good breeders (AKC champs, dogs in commericals), and no one ever asked or cared if the dog was going to be fenced or kept inside. In fact, I thought it was cruel to pen the beagle up, so it would be rabbit-crazy, when it was let out.

You have to understand the cultural divide -- we probably had 40 cats, at my house, counting litters, etc., when I was a kid (not all at one time), and maybe 20 dogs -- not one of those animals was a house pet -- and they weren't "feral" anything -- they layed around in the yard, chased balls, drug up fox heads and went exploring in the gullies, swam with us in the lake, rode with us in the back of the pick-up, slept on our stomachs, in the sun, caught mice, ran alongside us on bikes and four-wheelers, went hunting with my dad, sat and shook and walked around on our shoulders. They were always fed, always watered, vaccinated, given treats, given beds in the heated garage, or the heated dog house -- and, when I was a kid -- the dogs, especially -- would actually comfort me when I cried. I loved those animals with all my guts, when I was a kid, and cried when (now you're really going to be horrified) they either had to be "put down" with a shotgun, or I woke up one morning and they were laying in a bloody, mangled mess, at the end of the driveway, after being hit by a car. I've seen a puppy get shut in a garage door, two kittens suffocated in a cooler, and heard my dad say "that cat'll move," about two seconds before we felt the tires roll over it. And, as far as I can tell -- nothing, back there, anyway, has changed. And it's not "hickville," either -- it's just rural people on farms and in modular ranch houses, who always wear clean white underwear and have puffy couches.

After I left that, for a period, I thought that animals SHOULD be kept in the house -- I don't know, as a backlash against it, or something, and I thought it was the "PC" thing to do, until I moved to Seattle, and all these total left-winging, PETA-loving artists and musicians in their eternally blooming cape cods, and VW buses, with their Stravinsky records, thought it was akin to a Holocaust to declaw cats and keep them in the house -- so, I had thought my backlash was wrong, and adopted a "let the cats roam" attitude, and went back to believing that animals needed "organic" time, outside.

Then, I get treated like the Charlie Manson at the animal shelter. It's a bit fucking confusing, Lizzy, and I'm trying to figure it out from a variety of angles. Help me -- and don't give me the same snooty crap as the neurotics at the shelter.

[LisaL]

73. We used to have inside-outside cats too.

In fact, that's all we had while I was growing up. But times change, and you can change. It's not what it used to be, and cats are not safe being out there anymore, even in a rural environment. I personally know a woman who used to have outside cats, until several of them were run down by cars, on purpose, I might add.

[riderinthestorm]

84. Did she find rope and the cats tied down?

So they could be purposefully run down?

You want to stack your one anecdote against numorous others (and some shelters as well) that claim that outdoor cats ARE safe.....

I knew one woman who stumbled over her cat in the dark on the way to the kitchen and broke it's back, ergo, no cats should be kept in the house since people may stumble over them and kill them!

And some people keep cats in their house and purposefully kill them!

No cats in the house I say!

[LisaL]

88. Those cats weren't even on the road. They were purposely run

down, she found skid marks going to the bodies. Whatever you believe it or not, people do all kinds of horrible things to the animals.

[riderinthestorm]

145. Skid marks usually indicate somebody was trying to STOP!

No skid marks would indicate somebody wasn't trying to stop.

Ergo, I'm not sure why you would believe skid marks indicate a purposeful hit and run.

To me it indicates the opposite.

[the_spectator]

44. You can't let dogs out because -

1) They don't take care of themselves as well as cats do: ever see a cat chase a car?

2) Some dogs bite people. MANY dogs will bark at and chase people. Cats don't do that.

[friesianrider]

119. Bwahahahaha!!

"Because dogs don't take care of themselves as well as cats do."

:rofl: :rofl:

And, *cough*, last time I checked... cats bite, too.

How unbelievably selfish to keep your dogs indoors or confined to a fence! Sooo evil and selfish!

Or, maybe just hypocritical. :eyes:

[Extend a Hand]

26. I've always thought that it's kind of mean

to keep a cat cooped up inside all the time. And yes, I let my child go outside unsupervised too. geez.

I've trained my cats to come to a whistle so they can hear me whenever I want to get them in. I just go out on the deck and start my kitty whistle and they usually show up within minutes.

I think they are happier going outside and where we are it's pretty safe. My cats are 15yrs, 12yrs, and 5yrs.

[the_spectator]

43. EXACTAMENTE!!!

I "lol"ed when I clicked on the Lounge and saw ANOTHER indoor/outdoor cat flamethread. I come down on the side of outdoor, but I understand and respect the fact that some people's inclinations or home environments lead them to keep cats indoors. There are good reasons and defenses for both sides of the argument.

But I think the shelter-person in the OP really put his or her foot in it with that "children" comment, and confirmed my suspicion that too many indoor-cat people are just part of a larger, misguided, over-protective, over-fearful strain that is growing by leaps and bounds in contemporary society.

I think a cat needs outdoor time to be happy and well-balanced. I think children need it too!!! I'm 37 - I remember going out to play with neighbor kids around the block when I was in 1st grade! Tricycles, bicycles and training wheels; endless games of tag, expeditions to a park a few blocks away for the swings, etc. And in elementary school, I walked to the bus-stop! By myself even! Without adult supervision!

I feel so sorry for the kids of today's over-protective parents who never allow their kids the simple freedom to be outdoors on their own with their friends. I feel so sorry for the kids whose mothers all DRIVE them to the bus-stop in their SUVs - and then WAIT, engines idling, until the bus gets there!

No wonder we have so many screwed-up teenagers today! Hopped up on ritalin, stuck to the video-game console, over-eating in front of the TV. Cutting themselves. Becoming obsessed with wierd and obscure things - like "anime."

Free the cats! Free the children!

[Cats Against Frist]

46. I think I'm kind of an overprotective parent -- but the boy's only four

And what the shelter workers don't know is that I would be damn near neurotic about the cat having food, shots, love, playtoys, etc. I just had no idea that, these days, you weren't supposed to let animals outside. I had NO IDEA. Like I said, above -- most PEOPLE can't stand to be cooped up inside, all the time -- I thought that it was GOOD for the animal. I'm really freaked out about this.

[LisaL]

51. It is not good for the animal to be exposed to the

dangers every day. How many people let their cats out, then cry that the cat get hit by a car, killed by a dog, or got into neighbors antifreeze? Too many to count.

[DS1]

27. My cat grew up in the country

It's in his blood to go outside.

[just a girl]

28. I have a fenced in back yard

My little guy (9 yr old cat) can't get out of the yard, so he can go out whenever he wants.

[LisaL]

29. Frankly, I agree with the shelter. I wouldn't let anyone to adopt

cats knowing they would let those cats out. I sure wouldn't let my cats out. I don't want my cats to become road kill, but hey, maybe it's just me. And it's good these people are attached to the cats. What would you have them do-say they can't stand the cats? They take care of these cats, of course they are attached to them.

[xultar]

30. NO! Too much danger and too many diseases.

[Mz Pip]

33. I have a cat door

and my kitties come and go as they please. I have never had one get all deseased. They have their shots, they are healthy and happy. I live on a quiet street.

I do think that some shelters go a bit over the top with that requirement. There are so many kitties languishing in shelters that to put a requirement that any adopted cat remain indoors is pretty unreasonable. It certainly narrows down a lot of potential good homes for animals by putting that restriction on adoption.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Hatalles]

38. She's let out in the morning.

She usually comes back to the door 10-30 minutes later and that's it for the day.

[Aimah]

47. I used to think it was a good idea.

I would let my cat go out but then he would come in with fleas. Even with those flea collars. Plus the kids in my neighborhood are Jeffery Daumers in training.

[northzax]

52. NEVER! what, you think it's some kind of Animal?

that you can simply let live? next you'll tell me that you want to leave your cat home alone, without any humans around, all day while you're at work! that's simply cruel.

sheesh. it is completely contextual, as everyone knows. I grew up in the suburbs, with a cat and a dog. The cat did whatever it wanted, indoors, outdoors, whenever it wanted, in three houses in two states. and lived to be 18. would I do it in the city? no. I think that many of the claims presented on this thread are frankly selfish. yes, I know that losing a pet is painful, but restricting them simply so you don't get exposed to something like that is frankly more about you than the cat. Some want to go outside, some don't, why not let them make that decision, if the circumstances are right? don't you think they might be more happy then? even at the risk of some strange danger? cats are predators, they stalk and hunt, it's what they do. denying that denies them a large part of their nature. but hey, when it's all about the owner, not the animal, I guess that's ok.

[LisaL]

54. Cats can not do whatever the hell they want. I am not going to sit

here and decide to let my cat to do whatever the hell he wants. It's amazing to me that people who argue the most that cats can not be possibly compared to humans then turn around and declare that cat should be allowed to do whatever the hell he wants to do.
Hell, even humans can not always do what they want to do.

[friesianrider]

57. I forgot to mention that...I thought the same thing!

Cats cannot possibly be even mentioned in the same sentence with humans, but it's really best to let Fluffy fly free like a bird!! (where he can be hit by a car, killed by a dog, eaten by an owl, or tormented by some sicko) :sarcasm:

:eyes:

Wow.

[northzax]

59. actually, I keep cats in cages

that way nothing can ever happen to them, hey, they don't know what they are missing, right? I guess a gilded prison is better, that's why we keep animals in zoos instead of letting them go outside.

do you keep a pet for you, or for the pet? if it's for you, then certainly keep them locked up. but don't pretend it's not selfish.

[friesianrider]

62. Yeah, I'm such a selfish jerk.

My cats are all cats people DUMPED on me because they "shed too much" or the novelty of a kitten wore off. So no, I do not keep pets for me. I had no choice in the matter. It is "hey, you can take them or they're going to be put down/dumped in a shelter/dumped at the nearest park." So I took them in. Yes, that's me: selfish. You got me there.

My cats are unable to understand and comprehend that being outdoors may be fun, but the dangers are too numerous for me to risk their health and safety. I can understand and comprehend those dangers and make the decision that is best for me AND them. I love them yes (I know, yet again I must be such a selfish ass), but I'm sure if you asked them if they'd prefer to live a long, healthy, and comfortable life with good food, good care, and good love, they'd choose that. Yeah, how selfish of me.

:eyes: Give me a friggin' break.

[northzax]

75. those would be special circumstances

and I congratulate you for doing what you can. But why is an indoor/outdoor existance inherently less 'comfortable' for the animal? maybe they'd be more comfortable getting to go outside sometimes, how do you know that? by the time they are adults, it is too late to socialize themselves to the outdoors, no doubt, so you may not have a choice in the matter.

You haven't, I noticed, addressed the idea of zoos, certainly it's safer to be in a zoo than in the wild, should all animals be rounded up an put in zoos? they'll be safe there, after all. they live longer than in the wild, so it must be a good thing, right? should we put every dolphin into sea world? every Orca into aquarium tanks? they'd be safer, for sure.

In my experience, cats that get to go outdoors are happier than those that don't. I judge that based on socialization, ability to adapt to change and activity level. It's not possible in every circumstance (like a city) but for me, I would never volunteer to take an animal into a situation where that life was not possible, any more than I'd keep a dog in a small apartment without a park where he could run. That's not a judgement on you, since you didn't have that option and you do the best you can, it's a judgement for myself, based on my experiences.

[friesianrider]

83. No, they are not special circumstances.

Every person who is a good owner loves their pet. That isn't selfish. Spending the gobs of money pet owners do on food, vet care, toys, pet beds, etc isn't selfish. Yes we love them, but to claim that that we are selfish in wanting them to live long, healthy lives is absolutely absurd. That's like saying it is selfish to not let your 5-year-old kid play near a busy street. And it is a fact that indoor cats live longer than outdoor cats.

"But why is an indoor/outdoor existance inherently less 'comfortable' for the animal?"

I am not sure, but I don't think I said it was "less comfortable." I said it was less safe, which it is. I know my cats would probably like to go outside. My nephew would probably like to eat candy four times a day and watch TV all day. I make the decisions I *know* are best for them and me without reservation. They may or may not be more comfortable going outside a bit, but I personally doubt it. If they want to go outdoors, they do it in the safety of a completely enclosed kitty run or on a kitty leash (which I supervise). And if you think my cats are remotely unhappy or uncomfortable with being indoor only...I invite you to my house to meet the clan!

The zoo thing isn't really interesting to me because the issue here is cats - don't know much about zoos or zoo animals to say one way or another.

"In my experience, cats that get to go outdoors are happier than those that don't. I judge that based on socialization, ability to adapt to change and activity level."

Well, my experience has been the total opposite - and I say that as a cat owner for the last 19 years and as someone who has been involved in rescue for the last 7 years (and as someone who has had both indoor and outdoor cats).

[northzax]

90. yes, they are special circumstances

you didn't go out looking for a pet, you had already grown ones foisted on you. that's not how most people end up with animals in their houses, most people go out looking to adopt a pet. that's what I was referring to.

and the comfortable line came from your previous post: I'm sure if you asked them if they'd prefer to live a long, healthy, and comfortable life with good food, good care, and good love, they'd choose that.

[friesianrider]

97. No, I'm sorry, they aren't.

I have cats I adopted. I don't see what difference that makes.

[northzax]

111. then, I believe, if you can't let them outside ever

you never should have adopted them. In my opinion, you obviously disagree, is that it is cruel to keep them locked in a house for 15 years. When you were taking in other's pets, you were doing a good service and had to deal with what you have. when you went out looking for more, you join the ranks of the gilden prison-keepers.

so you're right, I guess there aren't any special circumstances, just another selfish pet owner. or would you argue that the ones you go out looking for to adopt are purely for them, it's an emergency and you have to take them? or is it for you?

[friesianrider]

113. Yes, I'm such a bad owner! Bad, bad me!

You don't know anything about me or the OUTRAGEOUS lengths I go to to keep my pets happy and healthy, so you can get right down off your high horse. It is a PROVEN FACT that indoor cats live longer. Debate that. If they were just soooo miserable and unhappy and depressed, that wouldn't be the case.

Seriously...where the hell do you get off telling me I am selfish - BECAUSE I KEEP MY FRIGGIN' CAT INDOORS?! I also don't know why you're targeting me for your little rant - you can try to justify it all you want but if you care whether or not you'd like to prevent your cat being squashed to death, you'd keep them inside.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4237346&mesg_id=4240159

You've got to me kidding me. You are making a total fool of yourself if you think anyone who keeps their cats protected from the NUMEROUS dangers of outdoor life are "selfish." I love it. I'm selfish because I don't want to keep my cats safe. Yeah! Selfish - that's me! I'm such a selfish owner. :sarcasm:

You sound like a very unfortunate person, who lacks any compassion or tact. I feel very, very sorry for you. Because of that, and the fact that you can't seem to concede even the most universally accepted truths about cats and indoor life, you're not worth my time arguing with - you can't even seem to comprehend the simplest of facts. But I truly hope that you never, ever own any pets. You'd never be a good owner with that attitude or "logic."

[northzax]

121. can I adopt you

and keep you inside too? I promise to feed you the same thing every day, you'll get medical care, a nice comfy bed and all the toys you want. deal?

why is it that the indoor only people are so defensive about it? not just you, everyone? it's almost like you feel guilty about something. I notice the outdoor cat people don't get defensive, they just say "hey, that's how it is, deal" but the indoor cat people fill pages and pages with rationalizations for their behaviour. I just find it interesting, that's all.

[friesianrider]

125. No, it's just that your position has no merit.

And ours does.

[northzax]

129. well, I guess we disagree there

if that's what you have on the table. how big does the space I need to keep my cat in have to be? 2 feet square? 3 feet square? seriously, you must know, since your opinion is right, exactly how many square feet a cat needs, indoors, to be happy and comfortable.

after all, you have all the science backing it up. right?

so tell me, right now, I want to adopt a cat. how many square feet of indoor space do I need for each cat I adopt? I want a number, since you have the right answers.

[friesianrider]

131. It's not about having *all* the answers.

It's about there being proven evidence that cats who are outdoors live shorter and less healthy lives, and face greatly increased chances of becoming injured, killed, tormented, or seriously ill from poisonings, animal bites, etc.

It really isn't a complex issue to understand, but I'm sorry that you can't seem to comprehend it.

And if you really do want to adopt a cat, I'd advise against it. You don't seem to me personally to be someone who would be a good owner...of course I don't know you, but from what I do know that's just my personal opinion.

[northzax]

135. and I don't think I could say any more

that I won't be a pet adopter until I can provide them with the lifestyle I think they deserve. I would not be happy with a soley indoor cat, you may be, that's fine, but I could never lock an animal inside without any room to explore. I have a personal problem with it, I think it is cruel, you don't. so we have different beliefs on the matter. But don't worry, I will never force an animal to live a lifestyle opposed to it's nature, I would no sooner keep a house cat inside for it's entire life than I would a rhinocerous. So don't worry, I won't contribute to the pet industry any more than I'll shop at Wal Mart. I don't think participating in an industry like that makes you a bad person, just misguided.

in my opinion, animals do not exist for our enjoyment. You disagree, which is fine, from your point of view. I just don't see how you can accept locking a feline in an enclosed space for it's entire life, any more than I can accept locking an orangutan in an enclosed space. in the wild, a cat the size of the average house cat needs two to three acres of land as a natural habitat. you've either got a very large house, or you are shrifting them.

let me make it perfectly clear: if you cannot provide an adequate habitat for an animal, you should not keep one. yes, that means you. why does a feline differ from every other animal on the planet, that it's acceptable to lock it inside for its entire life? you wouldn't, I assume, do that to a tiger, but you'll do it to a house cat. maybe you are the problem, not me? I don't keep an animal, any animal, in an enclosed space. you do. but I'm the bad one? I'm always amused by cat owners who won't eat veal, both are raised in areas much smaller than their natural habitat, both are fed a forced diet, what's the real difference? that one is killed for food and the other kept alive for entertainment?

what is the real difference, in your mind, between keeping a cat in a house and a seal in a swimming pool? honestly, what's the difference? one's cute and cuddly?

so yes, I would not be good at keeping another living being in my house for my amusement. sorry about that. you apparently are, which is a great skill to have, I suppose.

and by the way, about half of the people on this thread seem to let cats go outside, are all of them unworthy 'owners' as well? or is it just me, because I am willing to talk about it? please, say it "half the people on this thread are bad owners and should not have cats" that's your point, right? I'm going to bed now, but I hope when I get up in the morning every single person who has said they let cats go outside has a comment replying to them that they should not have pets, and that you aren't simply picking on me. if not, I can assume that you aren't serious, and that you simply have an issue with me, for having a reason. I have counted the posts on this thread of people who let cats go outside, if you feel this strongly, you should tell them, the people who actually have cats living with them, how bad they are, not me, the person arguing a theoritical. if you don't, I'll assume that you are, frankly, full of shit. so tell them, the people actually engaging in the behaviour you find so abhorrent, or stop harrassing me about it. walk the talk, or stop bitching, your choice.

[friesianrider]

138. Hey, I'm not the one calling *you* selfish...

You did it to me, sweetie. I suggest taking a dose of your own advice before accusing me of "harassing you" (whatever the hell that means). You started in with the name calling.

The fact is your argument has no weight whatsoever so you're attacking me personally because you have nothing substantive to say. You started saying that I was "selfish" for protecting my cats from harm, now you're telling me I'm full of shit. You refuse to acknowledge that you are being a hypocrite if you then don't allow your dogs to roam the neighborhood because that's what they would like to do, too. Sometimes what we or our pets WANT to do is not always best. But of course you won't respond to that. Now who is the one writing three pages of diatribes?

Again, I'm sorry you are having such a difficult time understanding this elementary concept that is not only backed up by many caring cat owners, but also factual research. I doubt there's anything else I can do to help you comprehend this...you're obviously refusing to admit you are wrong (which you so painfully are) and have nothing factual to backup your beliefs. And that's OK. I deal with people like you all the time. But to continue to engage you in a fruitless discussion is like arguing with a closed-minded Republican -- not worth my time, and frankly, to continue to attempt to engage you is beneath me.

Hope you have a nice day :hi:

[northzax]

141. oh, this is amusing

I couch everything in my experience, which obviously is wrong and never happened. Over half the people on this thread agree with me that there are circumstances in which cats are happier in an indoor/outdoor situation. But their experiences are wrong and never happened either.

you are the one with an absolutist position for everyone, I have an absolutist position for ME. mine is based on personal choice, that people can decide for themselves, yours is infalliable doctrine applicable to everyone. in every circumstance, and I'm the closed minded one? it is my personal belief that keeping animals for human pleasure in enclosed environments is selfish and inhumane. That applies to zoos, pets, game parks and Sea World. Sorry if that offends you and strikes a little to close to home. There is no qualative difference, in my opinion, between your cats and the elephants at the zoo, except that your choices support a vastly cruel industry of pet owners and breeders who are often abusive to animals, while the other putatively, at least, supports scientific research and conservation. but that's just me.

[northzax]

58. not at all

but if they can do more of what they are born to do, I think it's likely that they will be happier. Why not simply keep them in cages? they'll be perfectly safe then, after all. you might consider that cruel. I consider denying an animal the ability to be outdoors in their natural element to be cruel. So there you go. denying a cat the ability to hunt, even in vain, is like denying a dog the ability to chase it's tail.

If you cannot provide an envrionment for your pet that allows them to experience their nature, then you shouldn't have that pet. period.

[LisaL]

61. What exactly were they born to do?

If you cat should be allowed to do anything he wants, are you going to let him use your living room as a litter box? Are you going to let your cat decide whether he should get treatment, or be put to sleep, if he gets hit by a car? If he decides to scratch the hell out of your walls, I suppose you just let him do it, cause, after all, it's what he wants to do... How about spay or neuter? You have to be dead set against it, I imagine, cause, after all, it's not natural to spay or neuter your pet...

[northzax]

67. cats were born to hunt

they are hunting machines. that's why they were bred in the first place. and yes, all pets, unless you are a breeder, should be spayed or neutered.

you may have noticed they stalk things? and have claws and sharp teeth? what are those for, exactly? eating 9-lives?

and it's funny, in my experience, the only cats that are destructive are indoor cats who get bored. I don't recall making my dogs use doggy litter, maybe you do?

[LisaL]

79. Born to hunt? What about born to breed? In case you didn't notice,

there is horrible overpopulation, but spaying or neutering isn't exactly natural, is it? After all, I am sure you wouldn't like if someone neutered you, would you? Why do you think your cat would like it?

[northzax]

82. oh please

is that really all there is? you compare allowing an animal outside to spaying or neutering them? then I guess this is a fruitless discussion.

can you address the zoo issue? are all animals better off in pure capitivity? or just small felines?

[friesianrider]

89. I think you're missing her point..

Which is that cats (like people, especially kids) may want a lot of things that are well-known to us (as dare I say, more intelligent, mature, and experienced)...but that aren't good for them. I'm sure most cats would prefer to remain unneutered, just as they would prefer to be outdoors. But is it best, given the information we KNOW about overpopulation and the health risks of not neutering, to not fix our pets? Is it best, given the information we KNOW about the perils outdoor cats face, to just let our cats go outside?

Our cats may want a lot of things, but that doesn't mean it is in their best interests. That is what lizzy is trying to say.

[friesianrider]

55. I hope you never own any pets.

"...but restricting them simply so you don't get exposed to something like that is frankly more about you than the cat."

WOW. That's all I have to say. Wow. Yeah, the cats will be real happy until some ratty ass brat thinks cats should be target practice for his BB gun. Or until some teenager tries to impress his pimple-faced friends by aiming for and running over the cat. Or until the cat gets attacked by a dog or other animal and then the owner can't be bothered to take it to the vet because it'll "cost too much" (that is, if the cat doesn't die right away or go somewhere to die in agony and pain). Yeah, sounds like a great life. I'm sure the cat will thank their owner for "letting them be free." :eyes: When it is dead because some neighbor thought it was peeing in his immaculate garden, I hope you can look the animal in the face and say "well gosh Fluffy, I thought it was part of your nature to be exposed to countless dangers. Sorry!"

We all (since we are, after all, animals too) have natural desires that shouldn't always be acted upon because it isn't in our best interests. It's why we don't let our kids eat candy all day and watch TV and play video games even though they may WANT to do it. There is absolutely no reason to let a cat outdoors, and the arguments I've heard are really un-convincing. The arguments *against* it, listing the many dangers involved, are overwhelming.

[northzax]

63. until I can provide an area for their recreation

no, I will not own any pets. any I must say, you live in a very sick place if this type of thing happens all the time in your neighborhood.

I grew up with pets, as mentioned above, and none of them were ever shot by pimply faced teenagers, in fact, I'd never heard of any of that happening in my towns. Everyone had outdoor cats, so you'd think the torture would happen all the time, right?

and as for the 'not taking it to the vet' dilemma, that's an owner problem, not a pet one. I vote we take every animal in the world and put them in zoos, that way nothing will ever happen to any of them. The indoor/outdoor cats I have known are more social, better able to deal with people and frankly happier. Indoor cats, in my experience, tend to be lazy and anti-social, but I guess to you that means they are happier?

imagine living your entire life and never feeling rain on your head, or the crisp autumm air, or knowing what snow feels like, or a spring breeze. happy? imagine being bred, having evolved for millenia, to stalk prey, and never getting to do it. imagine never being in the dark, never catching a mouse, never lying in the grass in the summer sun. That's the life you provide for your cats. and you somehow think they're happy? like the lions in the Bronx Zoo are happy?

having an indoor/outdoor can in no way diminishes the responsibility of the owner to provide food, shelter, medical care and attention to the animal. Cat doors or other ways to ensure they can enter the house if they feel threatened, cold or hungry is a neccesity. And you know what? they come back, by choice. do your cats get to choose anything, at anytime in their lives?

There is absolutely no reason to let a cat outdoors yes, actually, because it's a CAT, it's an outdoor creature that you have domesticated for your pleasure. it belongs outside, it may choose to come inside to be with you, if you treat it well.

now a cat that has been raised indoors for years does not have the skills to be outdoors, that's sad, but it's the reality. they should be kept inside, (and probably won't go outside if you tried, but I guess you'd say that's natural) and yes, people, spay or neuter any animal that will ever be in contact with other animals or out of your sight at any time.

[friesianrider]

99. So then I guess dogs should be able to roam freely, too

I mean, it's "natural" for them too right? And they were outdoor creatures that were domesticated for our pleasure. I guess then those people who get a dog and leave it tied outside 24/7 or for 20 hours a day are perfectly ok, because it's so much more "natural" for them to "feel the autumn breeze" and "the chill of -20 below temperatures."

I guess, according to that logic, it'd be ok then to let my dog have indoor/outdoor access to the entire neighborhood half the day.

Right?

[friesianrider]

102. It doesn't happen "all the time" where I live...

But it happens all the time all across this country.

"I grew up with pets, as mentioned above, and none of them were ever shot by pimply faced teenagers, in fact, I'd never heard of any of that happening in my towns. Everyone had outdoor cats, so you'd think the torture would happen all the time, right?"

Please...educate yourself. It DOES happen all the time.

"and as for the 'not taking it to the vet' dilemma, that's an owner problem, not a pet one. I vote we take every animal in the world and put them in zoos, that way nothing will ever happen to any of them."

Yeah, that's what I said. :eyes:

"The indoor/outdoor cats I have known are more social, better able to deal with people and frankly happier. Indoor cats, in my experience, tend to be lazy and anti-social, but I guess to you that means they are happier?"

Well, that's interesting. The indoor/outdoor cats I know are more flighty, more feral, sicker, have more health problems, and cost more in terms of vet bills. They also live shorter lives (and that is proven). I don't know what kind of indoor cats you've come across, but my guess is not too many. None of mine are *anywhere* near lazy and they surely are far, far from anti-social. And even if they were, that hardly justifies letting them outdoors where they can experience any number of tragic fates.

"imagine living your entire life and never feeling rain on your head, or the crisp autumm air, or knowing what snow feels like, or a spring breeze. happy? imagine being bred, having evolved for millenia, to stalk prey, and never getting to do it. imagine never being in the dark, never catching a mouse, never lying in the grass in the summer sun. That's the life you provide for your cats."

Yes, I'm such an evil wench! I provide my cats with a life living in the lap opf luxury. If my babies have so much as a runny eye or nose, they are seen by the vet. They eat the finest food I can find and get a steady diet. They have tons of toys (which they absolutely adore), a kitty condo, and all the love and attention they desire. Somehow, I think they are going to survive...call me crazy.

You can remind yourself of that dreamy-eyed rant when you see your cat flattened in the middle of the road in front of your house. Or has been shot by a neighbor. Or got chased and bit by a dog so went somewhere remote to suffer and die a slow death (which cats naturally do). And then when and if you get the dead body back, you can tell the kitty "but! but! You got to feel a raindrop on your head! It was all worth it wasn't it, pal!?"

"having an indoor/outdoor can in no way diminishes the responsibility of the owner to provide food, shelter, medical care and attention to the animal."

Oh right. And how will you even KNOW if your cat is injured or sick if he is 6 houses down and had both his legs broken by the neighbor's dog?

"Cat doors or other ways to ensure they can enter the house if they feel threatened, cold or hungry is a neccesity. And you know what? they come back, by choice. do your cats get to choose anything, at anytime in their lives?"

You're right. I should ask my cats if they'd choose to be castrated. Or if they'd choose to get their rabies shot. Let me ask them what they think. Surely they'd prefer not to receive medication they need, vaccinations they need, or surgeries they may need to save their lives. They need a choice, don't they!?

"There is absolutely no reason to let a cat outdoors yes, actually, because it's a CAT, it's an outdoor creature that you have domesticated for your pleasure. it belongs outside, it may choose to come inside to be with you, if you treat it well."

I could say the same about a dog. Maybe I should let my dog roam all around my neighborhood.

[northzax]

110. nice bogeymen

and yes, our dogs always had free roam of the backyard, along with the cat. When they wanted in, they came in, when they wanted out, they went out. we had this thing, see, called a fence? kept the animals on our property (which isn't really fair to them, but trespassing laws make it a requirement) Not once were they tied up, not once were they forced outside into the elements without a known way to get back in.

[friesianrider]

115. You keep your dogs fenced in!? That is SO selfish!!

OMG, how selfish! I'm sure your dog would love to chase that squirrel just outside the fence - and you deprive him of that!? That is the most selfish thing I've ever heard of! You ought to let that dog go wherever he wants whenever he wants, just like the cat. It's cruel to keep your dog confined!

Cats can leave a yard...should I guess I should let my dog roam the neighborhood too? 99% of cats will not stay in a fenced in yard. And there is NO WAY you could keep 99% of cats in a yard unless you had them in a completely enclosed pen (top too).

So if the cats can just go wherever they want in the neighborhood like outdoor-access cats, why can't my dog? Should I just let my dogs roam all around my street and neighborhood? They should be able to go wherever they want and run free like a bird to feel raindrops on their heads, right!?

Because I mean gosh...it's just selfish not to, right!?

[northzax]

120. dogs are fenced because the law says I have to

if there isn't enough land for them, don't have a dog. sorry if that's too hard of a concept to grasp.

[friesianrider]

127. So if there was no law, you'd let dogs freely roam the neighborhood?

So they can feel the raindrops on their head? And the sweet autumn breeze?

You surely must be selfish if you don't allow your dog to do whatever he wants just like your cat! Even if that includes allowing your dog to kill your neighbor's cat, right? Or chasing cars, right? Or chasing neighborhood kids, right? Because that's what they like to do. And because God knows it is totally selfish to deprive an animal of whatever they want to do naturally...right?

:sarcasm:

[Lindsey]

56. When I adopted my little one, I had to sign all kinds of papers...

agreeing that I wouldn't ever let her out, that I wouldn't have her declawed, etc. I live in West L.A. and would not think of having her go outdoors. I make sure that the blinds are up every day and she has plenty of windows to enjoy many views. However, I have some friends that live up in Fresno and they used to have four cats (and two dogs).One of the cats was miserable unless she could go out for a little bit every day. They lived in a very quiet neighborhood and their critter never went far from home. I think it depends on the cat, the environment, and the individuals involved. I'm too overprotective, but that's my personality. Maybe you can find a place that is okay with your wishes.

[begin_within]

68. Statistically, cats that stay indoors live longer than outdoor cats, but

their lives may not be as fun or satisfying. Kind of the same as for people.

[northzax]

77. same for all animals

those in captivity live longer. but better? that's a judgement call.

[Runcible Spoon]

70. Am I hallucinating or...

are we like fighting like the tenth installment of CAT WARS? Only slightly less vehement, pointless, and self-aggrandizing as KIDS IN FANCY RESTAURANT WARS. :shrug: I'm guilt of it too...I guess we're pretty damn bored, or procrastinating on something else (in my case :evilgrin:)

[Cats Against Frist]

74. I'm sorry -- I had no idea

I know there's a lot of "cat talk," here in the lounge, so I thought it would be a good place to ask the question. It's incredibly salient for me, as the shelter incident happened this afternoon, and I'm near-traumatized to hear that I'm an "unfit" cat owner, because I think that cats might like to go outside, sometimes, if they want.

I must say, though, right now, this is as interesting to me as just about anything -- I've seen and fought the "Kids in Restaurants" wars and the "Vegetarian Wars," but I've never read, nor participated in a "Cat War" thread. It is helping me work out the confusion, though, I think.

[Runcible Spoon]

80. oh, sorry..that wasn't exactly aimed at you...

more like a question for the room...and like I said it's pushing all my buttons too. LOL. If it makes you feel any better, I pretty much agree with your take on things.

[HeatherG.]

132. rude workers

I work at a Humane Society, and I don't think that everyone who lets their cats out is unfit to be a pet owner. I would like people to use some judgement though, and make a decision based on a cats personality and how safe your area is to a roaming cat. Certainly, you should keep it inside for the first couple weeks, so it doesn't wander off. I have four cats. One of my cats is allowed outside. She was an indoor/outdoor cat when she first came to us. Her previous owner let her outside, and when she decided to move in with us, it stayed that way. She is a very cautious cat, and is about 17 years old. The two I got from the Humane Society (one was born there) don't have any desire to go outside and are very easily amused. I can understand the shelter workers reaction though. Despite, what they told you, they know that living in a cage is not fun, and they want the cats to live long happy lives to make up for the bad experience of living at the shelter. They probably had an image in their heads of the kitty being crushed under the tires of a car shortly after it finally got a home. The shelter I work at, is working on making the stay at the shelter more comfortable for the cats. Fewer will be caged, and more will become part of the colony. The colony room is filled with toys, cat trees, and steps to climb up.

[Extend a Hand]

136. Good Post

I posted earlier that I let my cats out and thought it was kind of mean to keep a cat cooped up all the time. I now realize that that was kind of an insensitive thing to say. In fact, when I lived in an apartment near a freeway for 6 months I did keep my cat in.

I got my 12yr old cat from the humane society when she was 9 months old. For the first month that I had her she pretty much lived under my couch. I had to put her box and food behind the couch until she got used to it here. When she finally wanted to go out, I went out with her until she got used to coming in to my whistle and she has never roamed more than a couple of yards away. Since we all have a small wooded area behind us on our street this has never been a problem for the neighbors.

Even though I think my cat is reasonably safe going outside in our area, I would certainly not call someone who chose to keep their kitty in a 'bad kitty parent.' An adopted cat in either kind of loving home is certainly better off than a kitty living in a cage in a shelter waiting for adoption.

I'm getting a digital camera next week for my birthday. In honor of your post and most noble work I'm going to take a picture of the prettiest kitty in the whole world ;) and send it to the shelter where I adopted my cat with a small donation.

[lakemonster11]

103. Well, I had an indoor/outdoor cat

when I was growing up. We didn't have a cat door, but we would let him out whenever he wanted (though we did try to make sure he was in at night, especially when there were cougar-sightings).

He lived to a healthy middle-age, but was killed by the neighbors' dogs.

Sure, it was sad (I cried for days and days) and I loved him very much, but I wouldn't have kept him inside all the time, even in retrospect. (The dogs, on the other hand, should have probably been on leashes or in the neighbors' fenced backyard.)

If I ever get another cat, I'll let it go outside. I wouldn't get a cat if I lived in a place where I couldn't let it out.

If other people want to keep their cats inside all of the time, that's their business (and, like you said, if this shelter has some sort of policy, it's up to them to make decisions about adoptions), but I don't see any problem with letting cats out (or even having them live in the barn, like they do at my rural relatives' places).

But then again, I'm from Seattle. :shrug:

[crispini]

104. Ok, I have to get in on this.

For the record, my two are inside-only, but I live in the city, and I think that's how it should be. Too many cars, too much traffic, too many careless people.

Now, I have many country cousins who have indoor/outdoor cats. I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with it; however, these are all people who have, like, farms, and their house is NOWHERE near the road.

So I guess I'd ask you: How close is your property to the road? What is the average speed of vehicles on the road? Do you see a lot of roadkill on it? How about your neighbors, do they have cats and do they let them out? Do you have mostly decent and kind neighbors or do you have some that you wonder about? What's the percent population of asshole redneck hellraiser types?

I would also disagree with the "whenever it wants to" idea. Need to get kitty in a routine -- come in at 5:00 for dinner and then we stay in, etc. Because if they have too much leeway they can get too wild, IMO. Also if you leave the kitty door unlatched at night you could very well get raccoons, possums etc. coming to visit you. :D

As for the shelter people -- well-- some of that type get really wiggy about critters. :shrug:

[fleabert]

105. cats should be indoors, outdoors only under supervision...

I feel the same way about dogs. Very few things sadder than dead dogs and cats in the middle of the road.

[Dangerously Amused]

107. Now hold on!

Okay, let's try to find a little common ground here, shall we?

The shelter workers care about the cats, and want only what's best for them.

YOU care about a potentially adopted cat, and want only what's best for it. Yes?

The shelter worker's concern about cats not being let outdoors is based upon their life experience with cats. With all due respect, they probably have more life experience with cats than you do, by virtue of their employment. I'll bet they have stories about cruelty, neglect and gruesome deaths that would rip your heart apart. It is probably their experience that most of the cruelty, neglect and gruesome deaths occurred to outdoor cats, otherwise they would not be so adamant that their cats remain indoors. Right? And they want to prevent any of those bad things from happening to the cat in your life.

You also, I believe, would be very upset with yourself if any of those bad things happened to your cat after you let it outdoors, and especially now after posting this thread and having so many people advise against it.

On the other hand, you are very concerned with the quality of your cat's life, and that is certainly a good thing. I think the shelter people did not fully appreciate that about you. I do not think it wise or professional of them to insinuate that you would necessarily be a bad cat owner because you questioned whether or not a cat should be allowed to go outside. On the other hand, it probably didn't help your case when you insinuated they they were just as bad or worse for wanting to keep the cats in a cage instead of letting you adopt one. This unfortunate exchange seems to have had both of you "taking sides" against each other, when in fact you are both on the same side - what's best for the cat.

It seems to me that in a situation such as this, where both parties ultimately share the same goal of doing what is best for the cat... that each should give thoughtful consideration to the other's point of view, being mindful of the fact that the other's intentions as based on life experience are pure, even if their method is a bit rough. It seems to me that in situations such as these, the parties can always reach a principled compromise.

I have been in your position. I have kitties who enjoy being outside, but I am also concerned about their safety. Here is my compromise: I live in a house with a back yard. I used to let them outside on halters and leashes, tethered to ground stakes, in a safe spot where they couldn't get tangled with each other, or in the bushes, etc., and where they had some sun and some shade. I would stay close enough in the house where I could hear them if they made any distress sounds, and I would check on them every so often. Eventually I was able to afford having an eight foot fence enclose the back yard. Then I could just open the door and let them out. This worked splendidly for several months, until the boy cats figured out how to jump the fence. Oner of them jumped the fence only a few times, got scolded, and decided his own back yard was good enough. The other jumped the fence more frequently, despite being scolded.

So I had to think about the one who kept jumping the fence. He is the one with the highest metabolism, and always hungry. So I started letting them all outside first thing in the morning, and letting them back in for their first meal an hour or two later. The one who jumps the fence still jumps it on occasion, but when I call them in to eat, he always comes running up with the others because he knows he's going to get food that he likes. Apparently he never goes farther than a few feet beyond the other side of the fence. I do the same thing for their evening meal. So the fence jumper gets out at least a few hours a day, and the others I'll let out, beyond mealtime, whenever they ask to go out. Which is not all that often.

If I couldn't afford a fence, I probably would have bought a larger enclosed dog kennel (I mean the big ones, that are 9x12', or whatever) and let them out in that (making sure it had places for them to climb and some area of protection from the sun and wind). If I lived in an apartment, well, I just wouldn't let them out unless I took them to the park on a leash. But I would make sure they had plenty of perches next to windows, and keep the windows open (screened) whenever possible. If I lived on a farm... well, I honestly don't know how I would handle it. I know cats are important to farm life, and I would rather see feral cats living in a sheltered, warm barn with constant access to clean water and food, than fending for themselves in the more dangerous areas. But I would probably not let house cats unsupervised outside, I would be too worried about them getting injured, and bringing fleas and such into the house.

One thing my friend did was to build a large (probably 12x12x12) enclosed screen "porch" which is attached to the house for his cats, they can access year round anytime through an open basement window well.

I don't think it is cruel to always keep a cat indoors, especially if there is no safe alternative, provided one plays with them to offer the same type of stimulation they would receive chasing bugs and whatnot outside. Also, a well loved cat is a happy cat, no matter where they are; it is more important that a cat is happy, than how it gets to be happy.

Two more points I wanted to touch on quickly:

First, please reconsider taking offense at those who equate pets with children. I know you disagree with that concept, as you have a child, and for you there is no comparison. But please understand that people who do this often don't or can't have children, or are elderly and lonely (their children are fully grown and long out of the house, perhaps living far away), so - to them - their pet is the equivalent of a child. It is probably the only source of constant, unconditional love they have in their lives, the only creature dependant on them as your child is dependant on you, the only one who comes running up to them at the end of the day. Their love for their pet as a "child" in no way denigrates your love for your child, nor is it intended to. It is simply their expression of the closest thing they have to a parent-child bond. I doubt any of them would ever criticize you for stating that you have a deeper bond with your child than you do with your pet. By the same token, please do not criticize them for stating they have as close of a bond to their pet as they would to a child.

Finally... the "that cat will move" thing really disturbed me. I think that experience alone is a very strong argument for never letting cats outside unsupervised, presuming one cares whether or not the cat is unnecessarily crushed to death.

Just my opinion. Hope it helped.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

108. I've had this discussion

with an animal rescue buddy who absolutely believes cats should sty inside because they are not native to this area and they eat the birds.

Well...I can't deal with cat litter. If I lived in an apartment, I would. But I live in a very wooded area.

So I don't have a cat anymore because I worry about being politically correct and all. Now, it does tick me off when I don't get cool birds at the feeder because the next door neighbor cat is sitting there licking his chops!

[2bfree]

109. Mine stays inside.

I've had too many outside/inside cats that got run over or just disappeared so this kitty stays inside.

[Alenne]

112. As a person who works in an animal shelter

I feel cats should be indoors.

Just recently we had to take care of a cat whose whole right side was a huge open wound. It was painful for him and a fight for us just to give this cat clean bedding.

People do horrible things to outdoor cats and horrible things happen to outdoor cats. It won't kill them if you keep them indoors.

[Taverner]

114. In DC...no for gods sake!!!

Frists are running amok!!!

Seriously, Im all for indoor cats. Otherwise, the cat is exposed to a lot of danger...

[Seabiscuit]

116. Cruel and unusual to prevent an indoor/outdoor cat like my Hobbes from

going outside. That's what his kitty door is for.

[Rob H.]

117. Our cats are always indoors

Admittedly, we had a couple of cats years ago that we let outside. One was a badass (killed snakes, even!), one was not (came home beaten and ragged more than once from fighting with other cats). The badass one wasn't such a badass that he could survive being hit by a car; the one that wasn't a badass had to be put down because an infection he picked up in his travels was killing him. :(

Since then, all of our cats have been indoor cats. We know they're safe, we know where they are, and they don't seem to mind not going outside (we do take them out sometimes for a few minutes but they're in our arms the whole time).

[jpgray]

123. If you live on a farm or otherwise have a lot of property, sure

If you live in an urban/suburban area, you are just asking for trouble. The likelihood of the cat messing around on your neighbors' property or being hit by a car (doubtless while pulling apart some unfortunate city mouse at night) goes up exponentially. The only time our family had cats habitually outside was on a farm--it just makes for a happier neighborhood. It's not natural to keep them indoors, but neither is it "natural" to keep cats/dogs/whatever at all.

[Deep13]

124. Want a box of shit in your house? Get an indoor cat.

When I walk into a kittie-inhabited house, I can tell immediately by the vague smell of urine.

[Chovexani]

128. I am too scared to let my cat outside

I live on a busy street in the city, in a neighborhood with some truly bad ass kids. No way would I let my kitty outside.

[MissB]

130. My gawd.

I have to have something out there for the chickens to chase. :eyes:

[Xithras]

133. It honestly depends on where you live.

Nobody in an urban area should have an outside cat. Outside urban cats get diseases, get eaten, or get hit by cars.

That said, all of my cats are outside cats. I live in a ranchette subdivision on a dead end road. There's plenty of room, the dogs are friendly, our road has virtually no traffic, and they LOVE the fact that our local mouse population is astronomical. These cats would go nuts if I tried to keep them inside our house.

My garage has a kitty door, and inside the garage is a small, heated kitty room where the cats can sleep or hide when it gets too cold outside. That's as close to "inside" as they come unless they're actually being held.

If you live in a place where your cats can roam safely, what's the problem? If you live in an area where their life is in danger anytime they're outside your home, allowing them outside is simply irresponsible.

[Craig3410]

134. I let one of mine out but only because...

A) if I don't, he'll get pissed and shit next to the litterbox, seemingly out of spite, and
B) my house is about 500 feet from the road and he never goes anywhere near the road (he just runs into the woods on the other side of my house)

and I've been doing this for years and he's never gone anywhere near the road.

[SoCalDem]

137. Only if you do not mind finding their lifeless bodies on the road,

or spending eternity wondering "what ever happened to...."

Our pets are like perpetual toddlers, needing our help to feed and shelter them.. Would you let your 3 yr old out for the night?

[Bridget Burke]

139. If you want the cats to live longer, keep them indoors.

They won't be lonely if you have more than one. Mine have the run of the house & do quite well.

Keeping the catbox clean is not that hard.

[demnan]

142. I've been on both sides of this issue

Lily was let outdoors when she was young and could go in or out when she wanted in a big suburban yard on a quiet street. I tried to leash train her but she wouldn't do it. Then I moved to the city and had an apartment. It was too busy to let her out. She was an indoor cat then. Later I got Pad Thai and he was indoors.

Last year I bought a condo in the suburbs. I live at the end of a quiet court (which is just like a parking lot for those of us who live on the court) On the side of my place are some pretty deep woods and in the back there are power lines and open fields.

I let Lily out for brief periods only when I'm home and outside and I call her in after 20 minutes or so. Pad Thai gets an enclosure or leash walking. I really don't know what to do with Charley, he's a recent addition and was declawed and living in the wild. I'm keeping him in for now because if I let him out he may want to stay out for long periods of time.

I think it just depends on the location. I do think it's more dangerous for cats outdoors. I've found a good rule of thumb is to keep kittens inside at all times until they are 6 months old, then if you live in an ideal location you might introduce them to short supervised visits outside. The kitty walk and the leash are even better.