Did Michael Corleone cross a line by having Fredo killed?

[bliss_eternal]

discuss...

:hi:

[geomon666]

1. Yes

He damned himself right then and there.

[Bunny]

2. Well, he did damn himself, but given the nature of his business,

he had to do it. There wasn't much choice, really.

[bliss_eternal]

7. That's a good point...

Given the nature of his business...was it out of line for Michael to kill his brother, or should he have 'turned the other cheek' and kept a closer eye on him?

Should he (his brother)have been treated like any other enemy?

[Bunny]

9. No, he had to kill Fredo. He could never trust him again, plus the

other families would have known that Fredo was a liability for Michael, and would have continued to try to exploit that liability. Michael had to do it.

[geomon666]

28. After the events of part 1.

I don't think the other families would underestimate Michael. They'd be stupid to.

[Bunny]

33. But they obviously did. Someone tried to have Michael killed. n/t

[geomon666]

34. That wasn't another family.

That was Roth.

[Bunny]

37. Okay. It was Roth.

Be that as it may, the attempt was made. The message was sent.

[geomon666]

39. Yeah, he could've just blamed it on Roth and kept his brother out of it.

Even he says he was hurt by it and that's why he killed him. He says that in part 3.

[bliss_eternal]

57. I think you are right...

I considered the possibility of just sending Fredo away, but that wouldn't have worked either...

[geomon666]

25. He was the only one that knew that it was Fredo

So he had all the power. He had a choice and he chose to follow his anger and his pain. He condemned his brother and damned himself.

[Reciprocity]

41. It also cost him his son's love.

In part three (holding nose) Kay tells Michael that Anthony knew he had Fredo killed. Fredo and Anthony were great pals. Michael was way to busy being Godfather to spend any time with his children and Fredo took up the slack taking him fishing and doing all the things Michael should have done.

[bliss_eternal]

50. Yes it did...

At the same time, I think it gave his son the freedom to pursue his interests, as opposed to being a part of the 'family business.' He saw it for what it was, instead of having some romantic idea of it.

Kay being around for her son probably had a lot to do with it as well...or at least that's the way I saw it. I'm open to other ideas and opinions.

[Darth_Kitten]

3. What made him so evil?

:shrug:

[bliss_eternal]

6. Are you referring to Michael or Fredo?

...as being evil?

:hi:

[Darth_Kitten]

17. Michael...

it's like he's normal at the beginning, and then becomes cold and vicious. :(

he never wanted to be in the business, and then, boom. :(

[bliss_eternal]

46. That's a great question, Darth Kitten--

I think everyone has a different theory as to what the defining moment that made Michael 'evil.'

Personally, I feel it was a combination of things--when he murders the people in the diner and the death of Apollonia, which was meant as a hit on him.

I noticed that after Apollonia is killed, he never smiles again. He rarely smiled prior--just in some moments with his family and with Kay--but after the night at the hospital with his father, and the other events I mention, he just never seems quite the same.

I change my mind a bit on this issue everytime I view the movies, though... LOL!

Thanks for participating in this thread! :hi:

[Darth_Kitten]

63. interesting observations....

:hi:

[bliss_eternal]

73. Thank you!

:pals: :hi:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Can You Be A Mafioso And Have Any Kind Of Moral Compass?

I mean John Gotti had the guy who accidentially killed his son in a car accident killed...

[bliss_eternal]

49. Excellent question--

I honestly think the answer is probably no.

I didn't know that about John Gotti. Whoa. I must have missed that American Justice, I'm usually so good about seeing them. LOL!

[Elidor]

59. In fact, Sammy "the bull" Gravano killed that guy

As a favor to Gotti. He copped to it years later, after he'd gotten a deal for testifying against Gotti. Later he ran afoul of the witness protection program and was popped for running a multinational Ecstasy ring.

[bliss_eternal]

61. What a dumbass!

They place him in witness protection, and he blows it running an Ecstasy ring?! Wow!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Didn't Fredo Try To Have Him Killed

eom

[bliss_eternal]

5. Yes-I think so...

Fredo was pissed and very envious that his father and brothers put their younger brother Michael in charge of things, so to speak. Fredo was older than Michael and felt he should have been given more responsibility and trust in the 'family business.'

When another family approached Fredo, he agreed to help them off Michael. He just didn't know how or when they would do it. He had no idea they would do it at the house, while Michael was with his wife and children...while Fredo was there, too (wasn't Fredo there that night? Haven't seen it in a while and I'm kind of vague on this point...)

[Lethe]

10. Fredo says that he didnt know they were going to do a hit on him

and also in the movie where Hyman Roth's guy calls Fredo, Fredo says they lied to him and didnt want to talk to them anymore

[bliss_eternal]

44. Yes--

thank you so much for refreshing my memory! You know your Godfather info! :thumbsup:

[Lethe]

58. another strike against Fredo - he was driving Vito when he was shot

another thing that everyone blames Fredo for was in the first movie, Fredo is driving the car with his dad, the Godfather Vito, when they came and shot him as he was buying fruit. Then they sent him to Las Vegas after that.

[bliss_eternal]

62. Didn't Fredo just shut down

and start crying while they were shooting Vito?

My memory could be failing me, but that sounds vaguely familiar...

[Lethe]

67. yep (nt)

[NashVegas]

79. Fredo Betrayed Him - And Then Lied About It

Bad enough that Fredo agreed to help someone against Michael, but then he later lied about his first meeting with Johnny Ola in Havana.

At that point, Michael knew he would never be able to trust Fredo.

[Reciprocity]

16. From the screenplay.

http://imsdb.com/scripts/Godfather-Part-II.html

FREDO
I didn't know it was a hit. I
swear to you I didn't know. Johnny
Ola contacted me in Beverly Hills --
said he wanted to talk. He said
you and Roth were in on some big
deal, and there was a place for me
in it if I could help them out.
They said you were being tough on
the negotiation, and if they had a
little bit of help, they could
close it fast and it would be good
for you.

MICHAEL
And you believed that story.

FREDO
He said there was something good in
it for me...me on my own.

MICHAEL
I've always taken care of you.

FREDO
Taken care of me. Mike, you're my
kid brother, and you take care of
my. Did you ever think of that.
Ever once? Send Fredo off to do
this, send Fredo to take care of
that... take care of some little
unimportant night club here, and
there; pick somebody up at the
airport. Mike, I'm your older
brother; I was stepped over!

MICHAEL
It's the way Pop wanted it.

FREDO
It wasn't the way I wanted it! I
can handle things. I'm not dumb
Christ, not like everyone says.
I'm smart; and I want respect.

MICHAEL
There's nothing more you can tell
me about this investigation?

FREDO
The lawyer; Questadt, he belongs to
Roth.

MICHAEL
You're nothing to me now, Fredo;
not a brother, not a friend, I
don't want to know you, or what
happens to you. I don't want to
see you at the hotels, or near my
home. When you visit our Mother, I
want to know a day in advance, so I
won't be there. Do you understand?

Michael turns, and starts to leave. A frightened voice
behind him:

FREDO
Mikey?

Michael doesn't stop, doesn't turn back. He continues off
through the veranda, and out the summer doors.

Neri stops by him.

MICHAEL
I don't want anything to happen to
him while my Mother's alive.

Michael leaves.

[bliss_eternal]

51. That's such a powerful scene--

thank you so much for sharing the screenplay! As I was reading it aloud, I could see the entire scene in my head...

So cool--love the Godfather!

[Reciprocity]

60. Anytime.

I needed to refresh my memory and though others might need to as well.

[NewJeffCT]

22. Killing the cop & Solozzo didn't?

He was at least on the path then...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. The Cop And Solozzo Had It Coming....

eom

[NewJeffCT]

36. whatever happened to sending him to prison?

not a very liberal point of view to say they had it coming.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. I Was Putting Myself In Michael Corleone's Shoes...

And if I read about a real life cop who was in bed with the mob and got killed by them I wouldn't lose any sleep over it....

[brentspeak]

27. But this was killing his own brother

This is the moment when Michael became truly cold hearted.

[Lethe]

8. yeah

it was pretty obvious that Fredo was distraught and genuinely sorry about the whole deal, he was pretty miserable in general

he could have just exiled him, he didn't have to kill him.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I Wouldn't Kill My Brother If He Tried To Have Me Killed...

But I can understand Michael Corleone's motivation...

[AlCzervik]

11. Not at all, Fredo knew the rules.

[Ellipsis]

13. Fredo new the rules.

*Smooch*

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. He Would Have Made An Awful Godfather

He would have been as feckless in that position as Bush* as in his....

[AlCzervik]

19. yes, worst Godfather ever---no managment skills

he wouldn't be able to delegate and his crew would rob him blind. Fredo would be like a drug dealer that was an addict.

[Darth_Kitten]

43. But he could fish....

:silly:

[Floogeldy]

47. He could also bang two cocktail waitresses at a time.

Not too shabby.

:silly:

[Darth_Kitten]

64. so he could multitask? Gee, that's part of being a good manager.

:D

[bliss_eternal]

52. Yes, he did...

I don't know what made Fredo think he was immune, or maybe he just thoought he would get a deal of his own, and wasn't all that concerned about what happened to Michael...

[Rising Phoenix]

14. Fredo was killed?

[Darth_Kitten]

18. so was the poor horsey...

:(

[CanuckAmok]

20. "Why the long face?"

That horse had it coming. Couldn't be trusted to keep a secret.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. The Horse Was The Only Innocent That Was Killed In All Three Godfathers

eom

[Darth_Kitten]

23. Michael's first wife...

she was driving the car then boom. :(

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Forgot Her But That Was Unintentional... The Horse Wasn't....

She was "collateral damage"...

[bliss_eternal]

53. ...and his daughter, in part three...

wasn't she an innocent?

I don't know a great deal about the third one, I've only seen it in parts.

[Darth_Kitten]

65. Godfather 3 is the only one I've seen in full..

I've seen most of Godfather II, and some of Godfather I. (I somehow always manage to fall asleep whenever they air it on t.v.!!)

Yes, his daughter was another innocent.

Just an aside, Robert De Niro's performance in Godfather II is just magnificent. I am not too often blown away by an actor's performance, but De Niro was just fantastic in this movie. :)

[bliss_eternal]

71. OMGosh! I was just thinking that....

the other day while watching Godfather 2!!! How incredible DeNiro's performance was!!

It's the reason I got caught up in watching the movie--when I should have been working out! LOL!

You have great taste in acting performances!!! :hi:

[Darth_Kitten]

80. LOL Great minds think alike!

Too bad De Niro is reduced to doing credit card commercials, what a waste! :( ;)

[MrSlayer]

29. No, he was warned and still fucked the family anyway.

Fredo had it coming. And Michael had the decency to wait until their mother was dead to do it.

[bliss_eternal]

54. That was good of him.

In a manner of speaking. Sadly, his son had grown attached to his uncle,maybe he could have waited til his son went to college or something?

Just a thought... LOL! In theory, I suppose Fredo had to die.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. Get in the boat, Fredo

Michael stepped over a lot of lines before he got to Fredo. But I'm sure he went to confession and it's all okay now.

[geomon666]

32. Actually he did in part 3

lol

[CantGetFooledAgain]

35. Okay, what SPECIFICALLY did Fredo do?

It's always been unclear to me. Did he draw back the curtains in Michael's bedroom? How could he not have known the reason for that?

[DS1]

38. No, Fredo tried to have him offed

End of line for Fredo

[Jamastiene]

42. No, I don't think.

But then again, I've been grumpy for the last few days.

[Elidor]

45. Never side with outsiders against the family

Fredo was a sweet guy, but he had it coming. In spades.

[bliss_eternal]

56. He was sweet...

I kind of felt bad for Fredo. Until I watch part two and see Fredo inadvertently tell Michael that he was more than well acquanted with Michael's enemys. When they went to that weird, kinky club...

Fredo was so stupid, he didn't even realize he screwed himself over.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. Michael Has Scruples...

He walked out....

[Blue_Tires]

48. several lines

my two major gripes is that if fredo had to die, then michael should have at least had enough sack to:

1. not be cowardly enough to wait until ol' mom's dead
2. pull the trigger himself

but then again, that whole mafia 'code of honor' or whatever never seemed to make a whole lot of sense to me

[KittyWampus]

81. there is no mafia 'code of honor', it was made up in Puzo's novel and

the modern day cosa nostra decided that liked that image of themselves.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

55. ehh it happens ...family of murderers chances of you getting murdered

is high

[bridgit]

66. Michael was an egomaniac warped in that 'mafia respect thing'...

he had plenty of money and could have built Fredo a little boat house down on the lake, slapped him upside the head with an aluminum baseball bat, slowed his high-rolling back-stabbing ways way the hell down, and let him drool on himself forever and ever while leaving an even more sustained image of revenge 'Corleone Family Style' but no...

[JVS]

68. The movie doesn't specify what Fredo had done that put Mike in danger.

So we don't know if Fredo plotted against Michael or if somehow he unwittingly gave detrimental information to Michael's enemies.

What Fredo did could range in severity between "Mike's having a celebration for his son's first communion next Sunday. Why don't you try to settle differences on this issue then." and the most extreme "Michael sleeps on the Southwest corner of the house, where there is a picture window facing the lake. Why don't you scare some sense into him." A more extreme betrayal justifies a more extreme reaction.

I lean towards thinking that Fredo was on the less severe side of transgression. After all, Mike did not allow himself to kill him before his own mother had passed away. This indicates that he did not consider Fredo to be an immediate danger.

Mike clearly crossed a line, in that he still felt bad about it GFIII. He had obviously passed the threshold of what he could bear. Whereas Sonny's tragic flaw had been his uncontrollable temper, Mike suffered because he was unable to distinguish when forceful methods of pursuing his goal (Wellbeing of the family)would preclude him from realizing his goal. By not knowing being able to decide when to kill and when not to, he destroys the very family he seeks to protect. We can see this in his destroyed relationships with his sister, his wife, and in the absence of his brother.

[Lethe]

69. what is the significance of the ending scene in GF2?

where it goes into a flashback with the brothers sitting around the dinner table......Fredo is the only person who is proud of Michael, and congratulates him on joining the Marines.

is that it or is there something else?

[Reciprocity]

70. I think, he had another life he wanted.

but gave that all up for his family. Then ends up without that life or his family.

[bliss_eternal]

72. I agree--

it was a reminiscent moment for Michael, in that he was reflecting on the life he was going to have. A life away from his family and their 'business.'

Back then, Michael seemed to embrace everything that his family was not. He wanted to serve his country--not work on the other side of the law. He was attracted to a woman that thought for herself--Kay. Kay was not Italian, she had a career, was independent.

One of the first thing's Michael does when he makes the shift to being 'like his family' was to embrace and marry a woman more in line with the women of his family. A Sicilian-Italian woman, much like his own mother. A woman that would have probably not questioned Michael's business, the way Kay did. A woman that would have given Michael children and been devoted to him, and may have even been proud of his success and power (much as his mother was of his father).

This is merely one example of how Michael's life veered from what he initially had in mind--by contrasting what he stated he wanted initially, with what he eventually became--a man attempting to be like his father. But a man that ultimately loses his family, unlike his father.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

74. It shows the contrast between the way Michael and Vito did things.

Vito was a powerful mobster too but somehow there was still a close vibrant family life.

Michael, while successful, has ratched up the "ruthlessness" factor on how he's run the business--killing his own brother Fredo for Fredo's betrayal was the biggest illustration of this.

The end result is that he is alienated from all the family, from Connie, from his wife, of course his brother... the reminiscence shows the contrast with the hollowness of his life. Kate getting the abortion of course was symbolic of all this too.

[bliss_eternal]

76. Yes--very well said!!

I would give you an "A" in Godfather 101!

Seriously though, I love how Godfather 2, features so many wonderful flashbacks--allowing the audience to truly see the contrast between Michael and his father.

On Kate, I was frankly shocked he didn't try to kill her--for aborting his child. I guess freezing her out was enough for him. You make a great point about that aspect of the film.

[Reciprocity]

77. For me the most chilling thing he did was...

you see him at his house looking onto the lake and watching Fredo being killed, right before the flashback at the table.

Also when he hugs Fredo you see him look straight at Neri and you just know that Fredo is a dead man walking from that point on.

[bliss_eternal]

78. That was chilling.

I watched it once, looking for moments when Michael smiled. Other than the wedding, earlier flashbacks and maybe a few brief moments with Appolonia, Michael Corleone never smiled.

That said a lot to me about the character, and I found that rather chilling, too.