What are the ups and downs of joining a fraternity?

[ZombieNixon]

All the college frats have just stepped up their recruiting efforts and come down on me like a ton o' bricks, and I'm trying to decide if I should or not.

[aePrime]

1. When I was a high school senior

I would get mailings from fraternities. I was never called, because I wasn't signed up for rush, and a lot of the fraternities just figure you're wasted time if you show no interest. I had no interest. I never imagined that I would ever join a fraternity, and just ignored everything they sent to me.

When I moved up to school I moved into the dorms, but one of my friends joined a fraternity. Friends with my roommate as well, he convinced my roommate to join, and I was left alone in the dorms. Since I had several friends in the fraternity, I would go over there a couple of times a week and hang out. They guys in the fraternity were great -- they never pressured me to join, and just let me kick around.

After a semester of living in the dorms, I had had enough of the bad food, and I didn't really like anybody in my hall. I moved into the fraternity, and I don't regret it for a minute. I lived there for four years. Living with that many guys can be maddening at times, somebody will always make you angry, but there's always somebody to hang out with. There's also usually somebody who has taken classes that you're taking, and can help you out if needed. I joined because I liked the guys, and not because I'm a big beer drinker, but there is plenty of that, depending on the house you join.

On our campus, the fraternities and sororities have a higher GPA than the dorms, and they do philanthropies. The fraternities are also cheapter than the dorms here. We had a good cook, and I've made many of my best friends there.

So, my advice is, first and foremost, get to know the guys. Hang out with them, but don't let them pressure you into joining. Join if and only if you like the men behind the fraternity. I don't regret my experience at all.

[sundog]

2. frats suck

don't do it... you'll thank yourself later :)

:thumbsdown:

[aePrime]

4. I'm guessing this is coming from a person

who was never in a fraternity.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[sundog]

9. no, you are correct

:)

[Rabrrrrrr]

12. Really? You can say that as a blanket statement that ALL frats,

everywhere and for all time, suck?

How wrong you are. And how unfair.

A rather myopic vision, esp. from one who wasn't in a fraternity, and likely has experience of fraternities only on one college campus.

[sundog]

15. nah, i'm just snarky today

please take anything i say with a grain of salt :7

[Terran]

41. Come on man

ALL frats? Okay, maybe not. But the Greek system in general is a breeding ground for white male privilege and country club Republicans and exlusivity. "In general", it sucks hugely. It's not the kind of thing a progressive society should encourage.

[Squatch]

43. "The whole Greek system is utterly worthless." -Terran

link

[Terran]

58. Look, I'm sorry if my generalities offend you

since that seems to be all you have on me here. If being a frat boy was a good experience for you, I'm happy for you. The fact you're here on DU says something. But it's naive to deny my other statements: that the Greek system is a breeding ground for White Male privilege, exclusivity, and sexism (and let's not evenb get into the well-known racist aspects). Do you actually have the nerve to deny that those things are true? If you do then have no further use for you, because you're denying reality.

[Squatch]

59. LOL

"that the Greek system is a breeding ground for White Male privilege"

Except, of course, for that portion of the Greek system which is all female.

"the well-known racist aspects"

Except, of course, for that portion of the Greek system that has chapters at all universities, including Historically Black Colleges and Universities such as Tuskegee University and Grambling State, just to name 2.

I do believe that the only basis you have for your claims are movies like Animal House, because it's clear you are going to try to substantiate them.

[Terran]

66. You don't have a leg to stand on, do you?

When one says "Greek system" one refers to both the male and female contingents. Sure the WMP part pertains to the frats, but it also pertains to women. So, did you miss my reference to "sexism"? The Greek college lifestyle encourages the sexes to relate to one another on the basis of sex and alcohol and partying, and not in any way that encourages respect for anyone.

I'm well aware that there are Black fraternities and sororities; I probably know more about them than you, since I have relatives by marriage who are in Black fraternities; my closest co-worker is in a Black fraternity. I also live in a town with one of the oldest HBC's in the country. There were Black frats at Berkeley and they weren't the ones who ever got kicked off campus for injuring people in silly homo-erotic initiation games. The Black Greek system is about mutual support and community and professionalism. The other Greek system no doubt makes the same claim and it may well be about that too, but it's also about maintaining the status quo in this country, and about drinking to excess.

As for the basis of my "claims": I attended a major university for six years, what more do you want? I had roommates who rushed; I went to classes with them. I saw them around campus. I was a TA and graded their papers and helped them during office hours. My exposure to them was on a daily basis; not to mention what I would read in the "Daily Californian" about the latest disciplinary scandal. And I can assure you that back in those days in Berkeley the Greeks (the "white" Greeks) were almost universally detested by everyone who wasn't part of their system. In the 60's Berkeley almost did manage to be rid of them; membership was at an all-time low in that era, which should tell you something.

[Squatch]

67. "Attended a major university for six years" - LOL LOL

:rofl:

[BlueIris]

69. ?? How does this make Terran's perspectives laughable to you?

[Terran]

70. I guess you don't have any answer.

Okey dokey, thanks!

[BlueIris]

68. Yeah, I'm not sure how you see the existence of segregation

by ethnicity and gender as evidence that racism and sexism don't exist in the Greek system.

[Terran]

71. I don't think you'll get a decent response from this guy,

BlueIris. Thanks for the support.

[BlueIris]

72. I didn't really have a lot of hope that I would.

I just hope ZombieNixon gets a chance to re-read this discussion.

(And I'm still befuzzled over the idea that the Greeks even exist at UC Berkeley. I'm thinking of calling my little sister right now to see if she ever noticed or cared.)

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[democracyindanger]

77. I'm with you, but

after reading the thread, it's pointless to argue with certain folks. They have their broad brushes out, they're not going to change, so why bother?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

79. Seriously.

But it pisses me off the sheer ignorance of the matter. These people truly have NO clue what they're talking about whatsoever.

If it's not your thing, it's not your thing. Just leave it alone, ya know?

[aePrime]

3. I guess I could give you a more succinct list of ups and downs

Ups

You make a lot of great friends. At my wedding, 3 of my 4 groomsmen were fraternity brothers.

There's usually always something to do.

You get a social life (I met my wife at the fraternity).

There's usually somebody who can help you out with a problem (like homework, broken down car...).

Intramural sports teams!

Chance for leadership roles (I was membership orientation officer, vice president, and president while I was there).

Chance of scholarships through your fraternity.

Downs

Can be time-consuming with things like philanthropies, but those can also be fulfilling. Also, chapter meetings aren't much fun.

Somebody will get on your nerves. I was sometimes upset with the mess left behind by people.

I wasn't a big partier. Nobody forced me to drink, but I don't like dealing with drunken idiots either. Thankfully, this was usually just the weekends.

[johnnie]

5. I never made it to college

But I would try to get into a sorority instead if I were you.

[ZombieNixon]

7. I wouldn't mind that, but how exactly could a guy like me possibly

into a sorority (and I'm not dressing up as a girl, that's not my thing, plus I'm far too hairy)?

[johnnie]

11. Okay, I'll admit

I didn't work out all the details yet.

[ZombieNixon]

13. Oh, all right.

If you ever figure out a way, though, let me know.

[Rabrrrrrr]

14. There are some co-ed fraternities

Beta Theta Pi was one that was on my campus.

I know there are some others, but I don't know the name.

[ZombieNixon]

16. That is true, and I have been approached by some.

I will check them out.

[BlueIris]

60. Please stop using the term "co-ed." It's 2005.

Not 1963, not 1894, nothing like that. Thanks.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

78. Uhm, co-ed means men and women.

If you paid attention rather than merely attack, perhaps you'd have seen this is what Rabrr meant. Thanks.

[BlueIris]

90. The term "co-ed" is an antiquated validation of sexist social views.

Civilized, non-sexist individuals decided to stop using it a few decades ago. If you'd learned what any of those terms meant instead of rudely attacking me, maybe you wouldn't have embarrassed yourself like that.

[democracyindanger]

93. Interesting. You should write a letter to Ms. magazine.

You know, the magazine Gloria Steinem founded? 'Cause they use the term that's an 'antiquated validation of sexist social views' in their stories. I guess that means the writers and editors of Ms. magazine are uncivilized and sexist, huh?

Wonders never cease.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

98. Maybe you didn't get the memo.

It's still in common use when referring to members of both sexes. It's "antiquated" when it's used to only refer to young women. The embarassment is not mine, THAT much I can assure you. Going through life with your eyes closed is no way to live. I suggest you open them soon.

[Nikia]

91. What term should we use?

Most social Greek letter organizations are single gender organizations so which term should we use to say that both men and women are welcome to join on the same terms. I also have seen co-ed to describe sports teams that include both males and females, instead of a single gender.
What would be a better term?

[Rabrrrrrr]

99. Oh, gosh - Oh, I am forever so fucking sorry

I used the co-ed to mean "men and women", as per its definition.

Gosh.

It's 2005, better get a dictionary. It isn't 1894 or 1963 any more.

[trof]

6. I belonged to one in the late 50s, early 60s.

I enjoyed it for the most part.
We did some pretty immature things, but we were pretty immature.
;-)
I don't think I'm any the worse for the experience.
Oh, it was the same one both Bushes belonged to.
oh my

[ZombieNixon]

8. Oh my, indeed.

I guess you came out on the right side of the wash, though.

[Taverner]

51. You're a Deke?

Oh my indeed!

Of course I belong to Sununu's Frat....yikes!

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. depends on the frat, of course - but I would never give up my experience

in my fraternity. That was the best part of college, and it kept me sane, and they helped me a lot.

I was a Lambda Chi Alpha, and I still support my chapter, and the national fraternity.

But it all depends on the fraternity - Lambda Chi Alpha is a really good one, well run, at the forefront of mostly everything (the first to officially abolish hazing back in the 60s, and one of the first to start trying to curb the partying and risky behavior, and talking about insurance issues, etc., back in the early 80s).

My chapter was fantastic - we had the highest GPA on campus my entire college career, even higher than those who were not in fraternities or sororities. We studied hard, partied hard, sure, it's college, did a lot of community service, but mostly built a community of love and respect and loyalty that continues in my life to this day, and I'm almost 20 years out of college.

And when I entered college, I was SUPER anti-fraternity, had no interest at all, but the Lambda Chi guys kept asking me to come check them out, and I did, and fell in love with them.

But even within an amazing fraternity like Lambda Chi Alpha, there are some shitty chapters - I just read that the chapter in Whitewater, WI, had it's licensed revoked (or temporarily suspended, can't remember) for alcohol problems.

And on my campus, the college kept a really good lid on the frats and sororities, and were very involved with us, but we still had a couple frats that were shitholes - the "jock" house, of course, but that's just standard for a "jock" house anywhere that it will be full of the assholes, we had a stoner house (good guys, though), and one house that was into hazing, even though it was officially not allowed by the college.



I suggest you check them out, see what they have to offer, and make a decision from that. I think everyone should give them at least an honest opportunity to present themselves - you never know, you might find an amazing house. Or, you might find that every house on campus is filled with assholes or stuck up fucks or otherwise.

My fraternity - and remember, I was VIRULENT anti-fraternity - was the most important experience of my college years, and I have friends all over because of it.


Anyone who says ALL fraternities are "stupid" or "not worth it" or whatever is a clueless asshole.

[WCGreen]

17. It all depends on the college....

If you are going to a small college, then I would suggest it...

If you are going to a large college, such as Ohio State, I would blow it off and join the organizations that most interest you....

[leftofthedial]

18. there are no ups

unless you wanna be a bushturd-like frat boy.

[xmas74]

19. I was in a sorority

(Alpha Xi Delta) and I loved it. I think that anyone who is interested should go Greek. It's nothing like the movie of the week shows that you see.
A few posts on here gave excellent examples on why you should consider it(friends, condition of the houses, studies, philanthropy work) . It's also a great way to network. I know of a few people who found decent jobs just because they were members. Think about that as another consideration.
Your brothers will be there for you when you need them-even if you have a major screwup or meltdown. They'll take care of you.

[BlueIris]

20. Downs: cultivating alcohol and drug addiction, being expected

to spend a lot of money on various house "functions," being expected to be sleeping with multiple partners a month, being expected to cheat on any serious partners you may have, being expected to rationalize the abusive, irresponsiblity of your "bros," including date rape, substance abuse and generally fucked up behavior--and facing cruel group rejection if you don't conform. Also, Lord help you if you are gay, bi, transgendered or curious/questioning.

I have a couple of friends who joined frats to fit in at their schools and lived to regret it. One stayed in the Greek system because he felt he would have faced social isolation if he tried to escape (his college was 90% Greek) and the other--who had an ex-girlfriend who was raped by one of his fraternity members--bailed on the whole thing, even though it meant not having as many friends (he was also at a heavily Greek school).

Unless you're absolutely dying to try it--I wouldn't let yourself get sucked in. I can think of a few Ups, I guess, depending on what the Greek culture at your school is like, but they don't outweigh that whole "being expected to overlook binge drinking and living with rapists" problem.

[Name removed]

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[BlueIris]

96. Again, Google "Greeks Against Rape"

if you're honestly unaware of how many members of the Greek system acknowledge the pervasiveness of sexual assault, unwanted sexual behavior and other crimes often connected with underage abuse of alcohol and other substances within the world of American fraternities and sororities.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

103. Please, feel free to present a statistic.

And a link from a valid source.

[cally]

105. On that long 'rape thread' last week, several posters

included statistics about rape. One that surprised me was the incidence of group rape involving fraternities. I can't cite it now because I can't do a search but you should read that thread when it can be found.

I worked against violence against women during college. (Late 70's) One of problems was rape and group rape by fraternities. We started an educational campaign about it.

I was considering joining a sorority during my freshmen year and hung with the fraternities and sororities the first part of that year. I chose not to because I was concerned about the sexism evident and I noticed that women in the sororities tended to not have close friends outside the Greek system. I felt it would limit my social circle too much if I joined.

[Rabrrrrrr]

102. Well, fuck. Totally fuck. I went through my four years of fraternity life,

and totally failed to rape any women, change partners, have out-of-wedlock sex, or do any of the things that you, in your all-knowing wisdom, atrribute to each and every fraternity and fraternity member.

Fucking fuck. Obviously, I was never "really" a fraternity member, now was my fraterity a "real" one, since we didn't have rape contests or any of the bullshit you spewed in your ignorant rant.

And the black, Asian, and foreign members of our house - we obviously totally failed to be a "real" fraternity because we liked them, and never committed hate crimes or race-based crimes against them, because I assume we also should have been racist.

And, goddammit, we failed as a "real" fraternity because our gay members weren't raped or beat up in the communal showers, either.

GOsh.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

106. Damn, me too!

And not a single person I know did any of that stuff either!

I want my money back! I obviously did not join a real fraternity!!

[Rabrrrrrr]

107. I just wonder if we're now legally required to regather our brothers

and make up for all the rape, non-marital sex, sex crimes, hate crimes, and race crimes, etc., that we were supposed to be doing.

Do you think I'll lose my membership in the fraternity? Will national pull our charter if they find out that we weren't raping, etc.? That was twenty years - I'd hate to think that my inappropriate behavior then might jeapordize the house today.

[Name removed]

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[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. A professor's perspective

I taught at a large state university that was heavily Greek, and I felt that the Greek system was so demanding there that it sapped the energy of the whole campus for other things.

Students seemed much more worried about crossing their "brothers" and "sisters" than flunking their classes. If it was rush week, they just wouldn't show up.

They raised money for charity, but it was usually "safe" charities such as Special Olympics or The Kidney Foundation, not that these aren't worthy, but you didn't see them getting in there and actually feeding the homeless themselves or building Habitat for Humanity houses.

A lot of them were fundamentalist Christians.

A 16,000-student university had only a 50-person choir and had to go off campus to cast its plays.

The last small college where I taught also had a strong Greek system, and there were parties not only on weekends but on Wednesday "hump day." Teaching a morning class on Thursday was a real challenge. Professors could plan a field trip for a weekday evening, and if it was "hump day" or if it was the night of the compulsory fraternity/sorority meetings, forget it.

The sororities were okay with their GPAs, although the all-women dorm with 24-hour quiet hours consistently came in first, with an incredible average of 3.6. Second was the dorm that functioned as an "international house," with lots of hard-working foreign students and American students who were interested in getting to know foreign students. (There was an awards day on the last day of classes, and the president announced the highest GPAs in each category of residence.)

The fraternities always had trouble breaking 3.0.

One year, the inter-fraternity council decided they were going to do something about this. They proposed a "study-thon" on the weekend before finals, during which the fraternity guys would spend the whole time in the gym, cramming for their tests. They went around trying to sign up faculty members to be on call to answer questions.

Two of the most sarcastic faculty men wrote a column in the student newspaper suggesting that the fraternity men should try a "semester-thon" after winter break, as in studying hard all semester, or even better, a "college-thon."

My experience with both fraternity and sorority students at both institutions was that their social lives were much more important to them than their academic lives or otherwise broadening their minds and experiences, and if there was a conflict, their social lives won.

Your experiences may vary.

[BlueIris]

23. Thank you for sharing that, Professor.

I didn't even want to go near the G.P.A. issues faced by the fraternity members I knew--created not so much by their substance abuse, but by the perverse expectation that they wouldn't try to "outsmart" their "bros" by applying themselves in their courses. Their fraternity cultures were profoundly anti-intellectual from what I saw, an insane tradition passed on from their fathers' years in the Greek system, when even at public universities, the influence of a parent's social standing could help a person get into graduate school despite low grades. The friend I have who got out of his fraternity actually managed to get a master's degree (I think his G.P.A. survived his Greek years) and the other somehow schlepped his way into a second-tier law school, an "accomplishment" he refuses to acknowledge happened mainly as the result of some favors done for him by his (actual) brother (a non-Greek attorney who had graduated from Pepperdine). Other fraternity and sorority members I knew in college faced significant obstacles achieving their post-graduate agendas.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

75. Uhm, I built for Habitat for Humanity four years in a row.

And served at a soup kitchen in DC. And the Greek GPAs on campus were much higher than non-Greek GPAs. :hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. Well, obviously you were on a different campus

than I was.

The Greek culture at the two colleges where I observed it was decidedly anti-intellectual.

[Name removed]

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[aePrime]

89. I would hope a professor wouldn't paint with such a broad brush

If you are a professor, chances are pretty good you have a Ph.D. It is too bad that you do not use it for critical thinking. Mass-generalizations are much easier to think about, are they not? Adapting views that reinforce your stereotypes is easier than thinking, is it not? Do you know any of these fraternity members, or do you just remember the ones that did poorly. I am betting on the latter. Did you ever live in a fraternity or sorority? I know the answer to that.

I am a graduate student. I am working on my Ph.D. I am a fraternity member. I teach courses. Last semester two of my best students were fraternity members, and they looked the part.

Last semester my fraternity had a 3.16 average, which was far from the highest of the fraternities. This is not bad, considering there are always those who get close to a 0.0 in the house every semester. Like every large group, there are bad seeds in the fraternity system. The dorms had less than a 3.0.

My fraternity is small. We have about thirty-five active members at any given time. We recruit about ten members every year. From my four years in the house, I know of four brothers who are working on a doctorate. One is a chemical engineering Ph.D., one is an electrical engineering Ph.D., one is an M.D., and one is a computer science Ph.D.. I cannot count the number of masters students produced in those years. Ten members a year over four years gives forty students. Wholly 10% of my fraternity brothers are now working on doctorates. If the national average for college-bound students were so, we would live in a different world.

I did not drink much while living in my fraternity, and was never pressured to do so. In fact, at any given time, we have three to five members who do not drink at all. They are not ostracized, and I can think of two presidents in my time who drank not at all.

[Shell Beau]

24. I was in a sorority in college.

There are definitely ups and downs. The ups are meeting lots of new people. Always having something going on. Being part of a group.

The downs are paying the dues monthly, the rules suck, can be hard to keep grades up (even though it is probably required)...

:shrug: I had fun for a while, but it definitely got old.

[Taverner]

53. Hmmmmm...Shell Beau a sorority girl...say it ain't so!!!!!

Seriously, which were you in?

I was in a fraternity (not gonna say which one ;) )

[underpants]

25. I joined an accounting fraternity

I just thought I would share that.

Actually it was all for networking, which didn't pay off (long story)

BUT

I did meet my wife because of this :loveya:

[LynneSin]

26. I loved Sorority life

even though most of my sorority was filled with a bunch of rich princesses, somehow myself and my friends made it in. My closest friends today were people I met through my sorority.

I have no regrets - but choose wisely!

[Squatch]

27. Say goodbye to your liver.

Pi Kappa Phi, Alpha Delta Chapter, University of Washington 1991

[MN ChimpH8R]

28. Mine was a mixed experience

There were a lot of shallow,hard-drinking Repuke assholes, but also some very nice guys. I was the hard-drinking Democratic wise guy. Hung around for a couple of years, but eventually drifted away fromt the Greek system. Too shallow, too social for my tastes - I was laser-focused on academics, and it took too much time. I will note that two of my best friends today were my frat brothers from the early-mid 1980s, though.

[Mizmoon]

29. They'll make you swallow goldfish and say "23 skedoo!"

I have seen it in stories!

[Terran]

37. That's "skidoo"

Just be to be historical-like and all.

[Terran]

30. Don't do it!

The downsides include living with a bunch of moronic sexist assholes, and then you run the rsik of becoming that yourself.

[Squatch]

31. So, I take it that you were in a frat/sorority?

If so, did you become a moronic sexist asshole? :shrug:

[Terran]

36. Hell no

I went to UC Berkeley for six years with those cretins around. At Berkeley they tended to stand out a lot; you don't have to be a Greek to see what jerks they are. And while I was there a couple of the "houses" were banned for hazing incidents. The whole Greek system is utterly worthless.

[Squatch]

38. You really enjoy speaking in scathing generalities, dontcha?

I was in a frat, but don't consider myself a moronic sexist asshole, a cretin, a jerk, or worthless. But, I guess since you say I am, I must be.

:freak:

[Terran]

44. There are always exceptions.

The *system* is worthless. It doesn't mean every single person who goes through it is made into a Country Club Republican. Congratulations.

[BlueIris]

39. There are Greeks at Berkeley?

My sister just finished there. I live up north, in OR. We visited her a lot, and I heard not one word about the Greek system even existing on UC's campus. It does, seriously?

[Terran]

42. When I was there, yes

1977-83 for undergrad and grad school. If by some miracle they've all been uprooted and banned, I would be overjoyed to hear that.

[Squatch]

45. Sorry to disappoint you

Frats at Berkely

[Terran]

47. Pity

Try spelling "Berkeley" right, eh?

[BlueIris]

50. Snerk.

[Squatch]

56. Oooooh, you got me.

[formerrepuke]

52. *

[Taverner]

49. Not all frat boys are morans!!!

I take offense - we were too busy getting stoned to do anything moronic!

Seriously, you can't paint all fraternities with such a broad brush!

[Rabrrrrrr]

104. Terran, I love every bit of reasoned, painstakingly researched,

heavily footnoted and bibliographed bit of pure shit you spew in this thread.

Bravo!

Ann Coulter couldn't have done better in terms of speaking falsely with such a broad brush.

:applause:

[JohnnyBoots]

32. Screw the frats, go play rugby. You'll have a better time and learn a

game you can play for the rest of your life (well, late 40's). Rugby is pretty much an international fraternity anyway. Where do you go to school?

[livetohike]

33. I was a GDI

(God damn independent). At least that's what we called it in our hippie days.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

76. It's still GDI

:-) And I certainly don't knock that. Greek life isn't for everyone.

[Dastard Stepchild]

34. What would you like to get out of the experience?

If you would like to be involved in political or social justice activities, then perhaps finding student groups on campus would be a better choice. I know that frats and sororities do engage in volunteer efforts, but they are generally, in my experience, without a highly political bent. An activist could certainly join a frat, but if that is how you see yourself, then another group might be a better fit.

If you are looking for a group of people to hang with, and interested in the frequent socialization inherent in frats and sororities, then it may be a good choice for you.

Your college is not die-hard Greek - the frats and sororities look way different at DePaul than they would at schools like U of Illinois. So, your experience would prolly be a bit different from the "typical" frat experience. This is my guess, anyhow.

good luck!

[Tafiti]

35. Pay no mind to the naysayers.

Especially those who likely had little to no actual experience with the Greek system, besides what they see on TV and movies. A lot of the naysayers are using extreme hyperbole and blanket statements that often do not apply whatsoever.

You are your own person, so don't let a bunch of people on a message board make this decision for you. If you feel like it's something you'd like or are interested in, then at least check it out. If you find it's not for you, don't do it. It's that simple.

[Name removed]

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[Taverner]

46. I was in one - The ups and downs are...

Pros: -It gives you a party every weekend. This is nice.-
- Depending on the makeup of your campus, there are some really cool, liberal and progressive houses
- You can meet some really cool guys
- Usually the house will keep copies of previous tests given in classes, and professors usually don't change their tests a whole lot. Hence, you can browse the test database as a study guide.
- The house will more than likely help you keep up a decent GPA through study halls, carrot and stick systems for grades, etc...
- Our house had a series of phototrons set up. This meant we always had smoke. This is nice too...
- Instant network upon graduation. Often, you can call on one of the brothers who graduated a while back and get a job after graduating yourself. This never helped me, but I have helped others. Of course my honest reccomendation after graduation would be "do the peace corps" but that's just me ;)

Cons: - Hazing. NOT ALL HOUSES DO THIS, and it is fallingout of favor, but some houses still do this barbaric practice.
- You can meet some really fucked up guys.
- Depending on the house, they may treat women like shit.
- If you get distracted easily, this can add to your distraction.
- Privacy. Basically, you don't get any.

If you rush, check out the following things:

1 - Do they haze? If no, good. If yes, stay away. The Delta Upsilon has a nationwide no-hazing policy, and although many houses say they have this, they have open rituals, so anyone could walk in and see if they are or not.

2 - What do they do to help keep up GPA's? This is a benefit that is often overlooked, but many houses have great ways of helping out each other in school.

3 - Do you see any "W" stickers? Are there enough darts in them?

[Lilyhoney]

48. I think it depends on what you want to do when done with school.

Sometimes it is not about what you learned, but who you got to know. Know what I mean?

[BlueIris]

54. Ew. College should also be about what you learned.

There are lots of ways to network effectively after college. Undergraduate work is important. People who claim that it isn't--in my experience, all frat people--didn't go very far after completing that work, or in their case "work." Saying that the educational skills a student should master during those four years aren't important is like saying that the foundation of a house isn't important.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[formerrepuke]

57. The ups: a place and a group of people who serve as a surrogate

family- a far more comfortable living situation than living among relative strangers in a dormitory. The downs: People who were never in the greek system think you're an assh*le just because you decided you wanted to get something more out of the college experience.

Personally, I think it was one of the best decisions I could have made. It did not interfere with academic work, but each individual chapter and each individual campus will result in a different experience. In my own experience, my frat brothers made up an oddball mix: Republicans, Democrats, jocks, artists, Christian fundies, a gay rights activist, and even some die-hard teetotallers. The diversity compelled us to get along with each other.
The diversity I experienced isn't necessarily what you'll find everywhere- but remember that joining a fraternity does not change you; you change it by bringing into it your own unique perspective. If the current members of the chapter you look into don't agree with that last statement- then look elsewhere for a social outlet, whether it's another fraternity, or a group of GDIs.. the choice is yours.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

84. My fraternity was extremely diverse as well.

And you bring up a good point - you pick the fraternity, the fraternity does not pick you. You join a group that you can see yourself belonging to. I would be most willing to bet that if you want a diverse and open minded fraternity, you can find it on most any campus that offers greek life. If you want to be with the jocks, there's a place for you. Want to concentrate on studies? There's a fraternity for you. Want to drink more often than not? There's a fraternity for you.

Most people who have problems don't take the time to decide what's right for them. It's important to do your homework and decide which, if any, fraternity is right for you.

[StraightMaleNurse]

61. To Quote Peter Gent's "North Dallas Forty":

"There's nothing more pathetic than a man who thinks that, by having his ass paddled bloody, his tormentors will have learned to love him."

(Probably not exact, but haven't read the book in 20 years--kept me outta the Greeks, though)

[LincolnMcGrath]

62. ZZE is my choice for greek clubs

[RedCloud]

63. Dormie versus Frat rat versus Rugged Independent

Go for the third choice! And room with gals. I had six female roommates at one time. No hanky panky however. I worked the night shift and took day classes. They were hardly there. But it sounded impressive until the details got in the way.

[no name no slogan]

64. I'm a guy, and I pledged a sorority

It was the first co-ed greek organization on campus. It went co-ed the year after they elected an out lesbian to be president-- and the sorority was made a pariah on campus.

It was actually pretty cool, as it drew all the "wierd" people at my straightlaced, small midwestern liberal arts college. We had a lot of fun, and didn't discriminate against anybody who wanted to join. All they had to do was attend a meeting once in a while and come to our parties. For Hell Night, we all went roller skating. It was a lot of fun, and a good excuse to hang out with interesting people.

[BlueIris]

65. Interesting. Say more about what made your house "a pariah."

Also, please stop using the term "co-ed." It's 2005.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

81. Co-ed is a proper term if using it for both men and women.

It's sexist if you're only referring to women with the term. Thanks for playing.

[BlueIris]

83. "Co-ed," a term which validates the idea that educational

systems can or should be segregated by gender, went out of style as a "proper" (read: non-sexist) way of referring to social organizations decades ago.

Please go pick up and read a copy of a "Dictionary of Cultural Literacy." Thank you for playing.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

87. Really? You might want to tell that to just about every college in the US

Or are they all sexist institutions?

Working directly with a large number of colleges and universities, "coed" is most definitely used by a large percentage of them in their brochures and pamphlets.

[no name no slogan]

85. Well, this happened back in the late 80s

...and we were in fact the first (outwardly) poly-sexual greek organization on campus, so it was quite a big deal.

My college is/was fairly conservative, although we've always had a strong progressive presence. Most of our graduates either majored/minored in business studies of some sort, even though we were technically a liberal arts college, and have a number of noted artists as alumni (including writer Kevin Kling, who is on NPR every so often).

My college is in a fairly small town in southwestern Minnesota, which
is as conservative as South Dakota or Montana. It's very rural, mostly agrarian with a lot of "traditional values"-type Republicans who thought that anybody from Minneapolis was a "city slicker".

Needless to say, there were NOT a lot of "out" people at my college in the late 80s. Unfortunately, those that were out faced harassment and discrimination, or worse. I know of at least two people who left because of the shit they had to go through, just to live a normal life on campus.

I had a gay roommate my junior year. He was a columnist for the school paper on gay rights, and penned it anonymously, fearing harassment. He eventually came out in the last issue of the paper my sophomore year, because he thought he wouldn't be coming back the next year.

He decided to come back the next year after all, and continued writing his column under his real name (I was the OpEd editor at the paper that year, and consequently worked with him on the column). The second day on campus, he got an anonymous phone call from somebody on campus, calling him a "faggot".

And that was just the start for him. Needless to say, he didn't finish the semester, and dropped out of college. It was very sad, because he was (and is) one of my best friends, and I missed him greatly.

The on-campus GLBT group also had to meet behind closed doors, too, when I was there. They routinely had their signs and posters in the student union defaced, and their offices vandalized. Campus security was of little or no help, although the administration was fairly supportive of the fledgling GLBT group.

Things are a lot different now on campus, and the GLBT/supporters group is very active. But it wasn't that long ago that our GLBT brothers and sisters literally risked their academic careers (and more) to be out, even in a supposedly liberal state like Minnesota.

[Dukkha]

86. Enough with all the crying about "blanket statements"

:nopity:

Jesus I'm so SICK of seeing these whining crybabies on here complaining about it every fucking day. People are allowed to make ANY kind of statement they want! Deal with it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

88. Sorry, I don't like being called a "rapist".

I'm not so sure you would either.

[BlueIris]

92. The problem of frequent sexual assault within the Greek system is a

recognized issue even within the Greek community. Google "Greeks Against Rape," if you aren't already familiar with that group, and the known epidemic they are trying to stop. Perhaps you have never raped anyone in your life, (I would hope not) but do you really not know anyone from the fraternity world who has not engaged in non-consexual sex with one of his partners?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

94. No! I absolutely do NOT!

Quite frankly, my fraternity would beat the living piss out of any one we found out did something like that. Hell, we almost beat up someone who wasn't in a fraternity for doing that to one of our female friends (turns out she was being slightly less than honest and fessed up before we did anything).

And after googling them, I don't see them being very prevalent either. A group being against something does not an epidemic make. I would love to see you post a statistic of sexual abuse by members of greek letter societies as compared with all other college students. Here's betting you can't.

[BlueIris]

108. It's great that you feel you've never known a person

who, as a member of a fraternity or sorority, raped or was raped by another member of the system. But it's interesting, and disturbing, that you're basing your opinion--an ill-informed one, from what I've read--that this issue isn't a problem among the Greeks on your own personal experiences, despite asking others not to make subjective judgments. It's also disturbing that your example about the way rape, particularly acquaintance rape connected with alcohol and drug abuse, was addressed by your members, involves your opinion that the woman who told you she had been raped "was being slightly less than honest and fessed up before we did anything." Ever heard of the "blame-the-victim" attitude? Here's betting you haven't.

Your little testimony on this website should offer me some comfort that rape and sexual assault is somehow a minor, negligible quibble within the Greek system--but it doesn't. Because it reflects a profound ignorance about the subject of rape, statistical patterns kept about the crime (particularly the estimates about how difficult accurate statistics are to collect because of the number of rapes which still go unreported) and the attitudes within the world which promote and excuse this egregious act.

[Rabrrrrrr]

109. I don't know any frat brothers who raped anyone, either

Do i think it happens? Absoutely. Of course it does.

But becuase it happens does not make all fraternities dens of rape, nor all fraternity members rapists.

Lots of crime takes place in African-American urban areas - does that make all Africa-Americans criminals? No, it doesn't.

So stop saying shit like that.

Is rape an issue in colleges? Absolutely. And in fraternities. And amongst the GDIs. Rape in college is an issue with colleges, not confined to the fraternities, sororities, or any other campus groups.

[HughBeaumont]

97. I wouldn't call them rapists, necessarily . . .

But I do agree with your statement about the whole "sick of blanket statements". I ain't gotta appease GOTdamn anyone.

That being said, I feel that most people who are in fraternities carry the victimizing, "I'm better and more exclusive than thou" HS mentality with them, and want this worldview to continue on as long as possible (and often times, it does). I'm not going by what I see in movies (hell, if Animal House were any indication, I WOULD have joined one), but by independent videos online, news of hazing accounts and first-hand visual experience of how they act. COME on, you all see this and don't deny you do.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

100. No one denies there are SOME who do this.

But a couple of videos shouldn't condemn the entire system, nor should it taint everyone who's ever been in a fraternity or sorority.

[Orsino]

95. What kind of frat?

I take it that you are being rushed by social frats?

No use for 'em. I saw the attitude, and though individually many of them were nice, together they were a bunch of chowderheads.

Me, though, I was in a professional fraternity, one that ran a house on campus but was otherwise pure Revenge of the Nerds. Good experience for me, without the elitism of the social frats. I was also a member of an honorary frat in recognition of my theatrical efforts.

I'd recommend establishing jsut what you're getting into. What does a frat have to offer you that others don't, or that remaining independent can't?

[Nikia]

101. I was in a sorority

I really think that they are great organizations for women, when done correctly of course. My sorority did philanthropy, encouraged scholarship, put on useful programs for members or even the campus in general, and encouraged members to be involved in other activities as well. It also provided leadership oppurtunities and a social network that was like family (you pledge not only to the organization but to each other). Most, if not all, sororities are officially dry and discourage hazing now. I was never hazed. I never felt a lot a of negative pressure to binge drink.
I suppose that to be fair, I would say that they are great organizations for men too. My reservations about this though is that the fraternities, both nationally and on my campus, seemed behind the sororities as far as going dry and hazing. Some organizations of young men are more likely to be sexist and accepting of sexual assault as groups than individuals. Be sure you know the group well to make sure that things that you don't agree with don't go on. If you want to know for sure, be brave and make statements about things that matter to you and ask questions. Make sure that you truly like them rather than trying to get into a prestigious fraternity. You can't get along with everyone, but these men are your "brothers" for the rest of your college career and actually life. Such a decision shouldn't be taken lightly (Think of it as like marriage). You always could deactivate if you need to, but it usually results in hard feelings in most organizations (Think of it like divorce).

[Midlodemocrat]

110. Locking.

The ups and downs have been pretty thoroughly examined in this thread, along with a lot of hmm, shall we say, less than polite responses.

Thank you.

DU Moderator.