Why don't men ever approach women anymore?

[friesianrider]

I'm just curious. It seems like if *I* have the nerve to approach some guy while at a restaurant/bar/whatever their first words are ALWAYS literally verbatim "I was so hoping you'd come over" and then some comment about how they'd been checking you out all night. Why does it seem like guys won't do the approaching much anymore?

Personally, I think it's really hot when guys make the "first move" in terms of asking me out. Are men just so intimidated anymore or scared of rejection (understandable I suppose, but how will you ever meet anyone)? I'm all for women doing it too if they want to - it should be equal opportunity - but I'm really old-fashioned in that aspect. It certainly isn't a requirement for me, but I find it VERY attractive when a guy actually asks ME for my number instead of the other way around.

Ladies and gentlemen, I kindly request your thoughts. Someone explain it to me!

[GOPisEvil]

1. Speaking only for myself: I'm painfully shy around people I don't know

AND I have fear of rejection.

:sigh:

[no name no slogan]

6. exactly

for example, there's a woman at work that i run into in the elevator once in awhile. she even complimented me on my shoes once. i know she's single, and i'm newly single, but do i have the nerve to find her desk and ask her out?

Of COURSE NOT! I'm a total chickenshit. a pansy, if you will. a week-spined mealy-mouthed rodent.

i think i'll join a monastary.

[GOPisEvil]

7. I could have written that word for word.

:(

[ofrfxsk]

100. You missed it. I think she was trying to say she was interested.

I've never commented on a man's shoes or clothing unless I had some attraction to him.

[xmas74]

106. sounds like you might have missed a chance.

She might have wanted to talk to you further.

[no name no slogan]

124. i just saw her again last week

and had a brief conversation, and also prominently displayed my now ringless left hand for her.

do you think i dropped too big a hint? ;)

[xmas74]

125. It should be ok.

She probably already knew about the ringless finger, though.

[Darth_Kitten]

135. No, you have an opportunity......

Next time maybe start a little polite conversation. :)

[Wetzelbill]

13. hear hear

:)

[Wapsie B]

119. I just don't open up with people

man or woman until I've known them awhile. There's the fear of rejection of course. But my problem's been focusing on one woman wherever I'm at. If she shoots me down I'm off licking my wounds, all the while there could very well be a woman not 20 feet from me who'd love to say yes. I can't see the forest for the trees.

But honestly, I wouldn't know what to do if a woman made the first move with me. I really have not experienced that.

[Darth_Kitten]

133. I know the feeling.....

But GOP, you seem pretty cool to us. ;)

I wish guys, nice guys such as yourself, would have more faith in themselves.

:) just my say.

[GOPisEvil]

167. I wish I were more self-confident as well.

Believe it or not I'm better than I used to be.

[slutticus]

2. Fear of rejection.

It's as simple as that.


At least for me.

I wish I was more outgoing.

[mitchtv]

3. rejection with Mace is a distinct possibity

LOL

[friesianrider]

4. Most girls I know..

Won't be nasty about it, but I guess a rejection is still a rejection :(

But unless the guy is HIDEOUS, why would you turn him down before getting to know him a little first (and even then!). I'd be willing to compromise a LOT on looks for someone who is intelligent, kind, and a good person - seriously.

Are girls out there really this shallow?

[no name no slogan]

9. really? there IS hope for us?

damn, i may just start bathing regularly again

[spacelady]

47. Made me chuckle....

[slutticus]

10. No. They aren't shallow at all.

On the few occasions that I built up the courage to approach or ask out someone who was "way out of my league"...they were very nice and gentle with the rejection.

But it's still a fear I can't get over. It sucks when you believe that every woman on the planet is "out of your league".

:(

[GOPisEvil]

14. Exactly.

:(

[Darth_Kitten]

136. Maybe they just seemed "way out of your league"

maybe they just weren't that special to being with. :shrug:

I don't know, what's "way out of your league" anyways? Appearances or reputations can be deceiving. :)

[GOPisEvil]

12. Yeah, but on first impressions, do you know all that about someone?

If you spend some time with someone and get to know them, that makes sense, but if somone just walks up to you, do you really know?

[MrScorpio]

142. You?!? YOU?!? You've got to be fucking kidding me.

Not YOU?!?!?

[slutticus]

157. Yeah...I guess I'm a SINO......

Slut In Name Only

:D

[drumwolf]

5. Others pretty much said it -- fear of rejection.

And my understanding is that traditionally it used to always be the guy who approached the girl. As a guy who's never felt comfortable approaching women, I'm all for having it be equal-opportunity and having the onus being shared by both genders.

[neuvocat]

8. First of all you actually have to be interested in the guy.

Let some guy who you don't like come up to you and see just how "hot" it seems after that.

[friesianrider]

19. Well how would I know?

I won't know I don't like him until I get to know him or talk to him a bit.

It is flattering when someone has interest in you and thinks enough of you to actually act on that interest by asking you out. I don't think there's too many people that I would turn down *immediately* on looks alone. :shrug:

[neuvocat]

28. I think we're starting to see the problem.

There's no way for a guy to see if you're interested in them. Its no wonder they don't approach you then.

[friesianrider]

31. Huh?

There's plenty of things I do to show a guy I'm interested (I'm saying based on looks alone of course)..you smile, look over a lot, etc to try and get the initial contact and then get to know them better. They just don't ever act on it. I end up approaching them and it's like "whew thank God you came over I've been hoping you would." It's like they want to, but don't ever get up enough nerve to do it...

[GOPisEvil]

32. Some of us need to be hit in the head with a brick (figuratively).

A lot of men don't do "signals".

[friesianrider]

37. LOL, I'm realizing that! :) nt

nt

[Wetzelbill]

46. a woman would practically have to smack me over the head with a club

and drag me back to her cave before I got it.

[nookiemonster]

109. Signals .....crossed .....mayday .....signals ....help ......arghhh

Hey, you're right!

:P

[neuvocat]

43. ...hmmmm....

So you're saying that you do in fact show an interest but you have to approach them anyway? Hm. Something's wrong there. (Maybe GOPisEvil just answered that one now that I see his post.)

[friesianrider]

48. Um...like what?

Yes, I show interest, and it is rare for a guy to come over. Same thing for my girlfriends. Yet, once I wait and wait for them to come (and they rarely do) they act so relieved that *I* did the coming over and introduction and go on about how they were "admiring" all night or something similar. Then why didn't you come over!? They always call, too, and some have been fairly decent relationships afterwards. But no approach from them.

[neuvocat]

56. Well...

the body-language thing you and GOP just talked about: guys are not that adept at reading body language. Even though non-verbal communication makes up for 98% of what's conveyed in courtships, a lot of guys manage to totally screw up what's being said (I happen to admit to being one of them who do so).

[friesianrider]

57. Perhaps...

I need to just get over it and if I see a guy who is physically attractive to me...just go and do the asking my damn self and be done with it! :P

[gmoney]

117. Women in a group are intimidating

It's one thing to make the approach one-on-one, but if the woman is sitting with five friends laughing and having a good time, interrupting that is even more daunting. It's rejection en masse!

Consider splitting off from the group for a few minutes -- go over to the bar or the jukebox or someplace by yourself -- and that may help the guy see the opportunity and approach you.

[Wetzelbill]

11. I'm a chicken

I had my heart smashed before, as a result, I'm much less assertive than I maybe would be. I never was all that assertive, though. I'm a bit eccentric. I was always more into my athletic career than women etc, when I was younger, plus I like to keep my space a lot. I do things that require me to be by myself, like read and write. Although, I've begun to feel that I do miss out a lot by not being more aggressive. I enjoy complimenting women and will do that from time to time, I am a bit of a flirt, but part of it is I'm a very humorous person. When it comes to asking someone out, I don't open up and go for it like I should. That's my case anyway.

[UTUSN]

15. Because We're Rebuffed When We Do? n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. I'm reluctant to approach men after having some bad experiences

asking men out and being turned down and then hearing secondhand that they thought it was "pathetic" that I'd asked.

I'm middle-aged, so this may be a generational thing, but I grew up when the prevailing rule was that any female who approached a male was "showing desperation."

[Union Thug]

17. My creeping weight problem and slightly unruly hair get in the way...

and then there's the whole older than dirt thing. And then the whole "unfashionable till the end thing". And, well, I guess just plain and simple acceptance of the fact that I'm an aging radical.

Real appealing to the females... yeah. that's it.

[Doctor_J]

18. I would say this, about that

This is going to come out pretty sexist, but here goes anyway. If YOU as a woman approach a man who's alone in a bar, the odds of you being turned down flat are pretty slim. Meanwhile, if a mope like me hits on a woman, it's probably 50-50 I'll end up drinking both drinks myself. There are probably many factors in this, but it's how I see it.

So flame me.

[Union Thug]

20. No flame here..I think you're dead on.

Most of the males I know would be hard pressed to turn down anyone to better side of Babs Bush in the situation you describe...Add some alchohol and even that could change for the more desperate among us (and for those with a secret zombie fetish).

[friesianrider]

21. Won't get flamed by me :)

But I'm in all seriousness curious: are you saying then that most guys would be receptive to *any* woman who approached them?

[Doctor_J]

23. Not any one, but

your gender is much more discriminating in that regard, IMO.

[friesianrider]

27. Really?

I would guess they're about equal, given some of the losers my friends have been dating (no ambition, ex-cons, etc).

Heck, as long as you've got a job, have some hopes and dreams, and are a good person with a brain there isn't too awful much more I'd want.

[Doctor_J]

40. See my next post

(38)

[jurassicpork]

104. Damn, honey...

...where were *you* 12 years ago? ;-)

JP
http://jurassicpork.blogspot.com

[Doctor_J]

38. And a few more words on the subject

From my own situation, I have what may be some handicaps in the first-impression dept (maybe you can comment on this). I am pretty average looking, in reasonably good shape for my 48 years, with nice head of hair and almost-black eyes, and I smile alot. I am extremely personable, riotously funny, and compassionate. However, I am a math professor, which in my case translates to: a) not alot of nice clothes (I work in khakis and jeans and polo shirts - I own one suit), b) not very much money, c) a pretty ordinary car.

So you can see that from acroos the room I would have much cometition from the commodities traders and real estate investors, first-impression-wise.

Thoughts?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. Never assume that alll women would turn down a math professor

in favor of a commodities trader. (Hey, I've dated two math professors in my life, one for one year, and the other for two years.)

There's nothing wrong with khakis, jeans, and polo shirts, as long as they're clean.

The trick is to gain a feeling for who the shallow golddiggers are and who the quirky women who dig math professors are.

Also, stay out of fern bars (where the shallow golddiggers congregate) and seek out your ladyfriends at political and cultural events.

[Doctor_J]

84. It could be just me, too

I right now am interested in a woman whom I have known for years as a friend. She is unspeakably attractive of body, mind, and spirit. Both of our personal lives have been in some upheaval. I am ready to try some long walks and dinners at French restaurants - twice-weekly rendevous at least. She, OTOH, is not, preferring once-a-week phone conversations. The point, as it pertains to this thread, is that I will likely wait, playing by her rules, at least a couple months, instead of looking around for someone else.

Why does someone called Lydia Left Coast have a MN graphic for an avatar?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

86. Because I was living in Oregon when I joined DU

and even now, I live on the "left coast" of a lake. :-)

[Doctor_J]

87. Where are you in MN?

I almost took a job in St. Cloud, decided to stay home in IL for another year or so.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

147. Minneapolis

Much nicer than St. Cloud, and far more liberal!

[hickman1937]

79. Try a blue collar bar.

Just don't expect the women to be stupid, and looking for a free ride. Maybe I'm wrong though. Grew up in white collar family, was planted in a factory after I flunked out of college the second time. Lay low till you find the small business owners.

[xmas74]

115. You're a math professor?

I know an entire group of women who would be on you in a heartbeat! As some women get older they get tired of the pretty, rich boy type and look for the down to earth type.
You don't know how many women I hear talk about how they would love to date someone in math or science. They see you guys as "safe" compared to some of the others out there. They see people like you as secure and someone who is willing to work hard, someone who values education instead of money. And, many of my friends see someone in math or science as future father potential(not kidding by any means. They figure that it is someone who can hopefully pass on an intelligent gene or two and maybe stick around to help w/ homework).
BTW-the women that I am referring to are attractive and intelligent. They just don't know where to meet these guys since most of you don't seem to be hanging out in clubs every night.

[Doctor_J]

141. Thanks for the encouraging words, but at this point

those women haven't wandered into my life. And BTW, my kids are grown, and I like it that way, so any woman who is looking for sperm donation will have to look elsewhere. FWIW, mine ARE very smart.

[xmas74]

149. I'm just using those women as an example.

They see something different than looks or wallets.
(and I like the aside about how smart they are. Much smarter than most pretty boys or men worried about their portfolios).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

151. Women don't "wander" into your life

They sure don't go door to door while you're writing equations on napkins or playing with your graphing program.

Go to a concert of whatever kind of music you like. During the intermission, strike up conversations with the women in the refreshment line. You don't have to be profound. Just say "How do you like the concert so far?" or something like that.

Go to political meetings. Volunteer to go hold up banners or door knock with women wo interest you. (This is the one exception to the rule that says that women don't go door to door.)

Hell, I know for a fact that there are women mathematicians, and I bet that they have trouble attracting men, because there a lot of insecure guys (insecure in ways other than the men on this thread) who practically run away screaming when faced with an intellectual woman. You should see the way my saying "I'm a Japanese-English translator" sends 'em off in the other direction. So I advise you to go to the social hours at math conventions, and instead of trading equations on cocktail napkins with the other two guys in the world who understand your area of math, approch the woman who is standing alone and looking about hopefully.

[NewJeffCT]

22. shyness for me was my problem

after my ex-wife filed for divorce, i kind of took a "What the fuck" attitude about asking women out & was a lot more successful.

But, there is a reason I was voted shyest in my junior high school & then in my high school, because I just couldn't get up the nerve to do it... not out of fear of rejection, just fear that I wouldn't know what to say, my brain would freeze, I wouldn't know what to do with her if she said "yes", etc.

[friesianrider]

24. See!

And you've been successful with asking more women out...why can't more guys be like that? Of course I am not a man so it is hard for me to say for sure, but I think if more guys went out on a limb more often they'd be pleasantly surprised :)

[GOPisEvil]

26. It's one thing to know what you should do intellectually,

it's quite another overriding the negative thoughts.

[Wetzelbill]

36. I usually have done pretty well when I'm assertive like that too

I do ok, but I rarely pull the trigger. I'm pretty shy about that. I hide it well with humor though. Most people wouldn't consider me shy, but I can be painfully so. I wish I could be more like that more often. I have been pleasantly surprised a few times in my life.

This thread is convincing me to try to be more assertive I think.

[NewJeffCT]

42. I would't recommend divorce beforehand, though

not a lot of fun...

though, the 18 months or so between my ex filing for divorce & me meeting my current (& last) wife, I had lots & lots of fun.

[enigami]

25. you women are scary

and you have lawyers

[tarkus]

29. I just don't want to be considered an asshole.

I think that is exactly what would happen if I just approached strange women out of the blue and talked to them. That could also generate awkward situations, and I really can't stand those.

[hickman1937]

30. I've been out of the game for awhile,

but my experience is that a man approaching a table full of women, and getting turned down faces much more snickering, and snark, than a woman approaching a table full of men, and getting turned down. My experience is 10 years old though, Maybe women have become kinder.

[KG]

33. like i need my heart ripped out and stomped on in a public place!

any more rejection, and i might have to buy a black market eastern bloc semi-automatic and climb up in a tower.

[spacelady]

34. Skeert. We are too ...whatever it is, turn it down a notch?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

35. It's simple:

After you have had your teeth kicked down your throat a few times, you are a little gunshy about making the move.

There are a lot of women out there who are more than a little tough to deal with. You can trust me on that one. Not all of them, just a representative number.

[friesianrider]

39. It's really that bad?

Geesh, I'll need to apologize for all these nasty bitches soon...

[neuvocat]

45. Nah.

You don't have to apologize for them anymore than guys have to apologize for other guys being jerks.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

50. Yeah.

My experience is that it is really that bad, especially if you aspire to be something other than a complete gigantic prick asshole.

On the other hand, it is also my experience that complete gigantic prick assholes seem to always have a full dance card. You tell me, I can't figure it out.

[friesianrider]

53. I'll go along with that.

I know many girls who turn down a perfectly nice guy to go with some asshat who cheats on her. Somehow that is seen as attractive. :shrug:

[hickman1937]

54. Don't. Just be nice to the poor slob that walks into that mess.

I(back when I was out there) used to spend as little time at the table with my girlfriends as possible. They always accused me of trolling. I just couldn't take the gang mentality.

[Wetzelbill]

52. yeah once you get shattered a few times....

you totally become gunshy. You hit that right on.

[Ready4Change]

41. See nothing but jerks in bars.

Makes one think only jerks do that?

Actually, I dunno. Not much of a bar guy.

[On the Road]

44. There's an Added Element Nowdays

There have always been shy men, but approaching a woman, even pursuing her after rejection, was looked on favorably. It was something that applauded and that people could aspire to.

Now, you never know when you'll be considered a pig. Unwanted advances are frowned on, and you never know when it will be considered unwelcome. I'm not even sure a lot of men realize it, but I'm convinced it has an effect.

[friesianrider]

51. That's true..

I hadn't thought about that. Probably many women are quick to be freaked out too by a guy who just is determined - and instead they're labeled a stalker.

[Wetzelbill]

66. I had a woman pull that on me

she was hurtful too. She used to come over to my house, hang all over my friends and had the nerve to say stuff about me. If you have a stalker why do you go to his house and party all the time then? I really wanted her, but I pretty much loved her from a distance after a while. I've never been more hurt in my life to be treated like that. Our mutual friends despised that she did that though. It made her look worse than me, but still...being determined and trying for someone does have it's risks. Especially since you can't just turn off those feelings like a faucet, if you are rejected. A woman can be quick to judge a guy who can't get her out of his heart that easily. I also know it works the other way. I heard guy's say awful things about women who cared for them.

[On the Road]

95. Nobody Agrees on the Ground Rules Any More

and many people are quick to make accusations of various kinds. It really muddies the waters. There's something to be said for societies with couring procedures that everyone knows and follows. We may be freer without them, but it comes at a certain cost.

I'm sure there are a lot more women who feel the way you do and are easygoing about it, but it adds another layer of complexity and social risk. Enough to make the difference in a lot of cases.

[I Have A Dream]

49. I've always felt bad for men since they're the people who were...

expected to initiate dates in the past. I was always thankful that I didn't have to do this. It's wonderful that society has changed so that some women feel comfortable doing this, but I'm too self-conscious to do it myself.

If I were a heterosexual man, I'd probably never had had a date unless the woman asked me or was REALLY clear with hints that she wanted me to ask her. I'm devastated by rejection, so it has been extremely difficult for me to say that I'm not interested when asked out by someone who doesn't interest me because I don't want to cause someone else to feel the horrible sting of rejection that I feel. It's difficult on both sides.

I think that the more attractive the woman is, the more likely men will be intimidated and not have the courage to ask her out.

[Kenneth ken]

55. when was always my

problem/stumbling block.

Along with an, "if she is attractive to me, she must be attractive to a lot of guys, so she probably gets approached often, and doesn't that get tiresome for her?" attitude.

It always seemed strange-tacky to me to think that just because a woman is in public by herself that it *must* mean she is looking for some guy to hit on her.

So, when is an appropriate time to approach a woman in public? I never really figured that out. I used to see women at the health club, but figured they were there for the same reason as me - to exercise - and so that was probably not the best time; apart from being hot, and sweaty myself thinking that wasn't a particularly appealing first impression.

Women in bars, HI WOULD YOU LIKE TO SHOUT AT EACH OTHER FOR A BIT? YEAH? WHAT? :eyes:

things like that. . .

[friesianrider]

60. I'd be all kinds of flattered if somone thought *I* looked good at the gym

Talk about flattering!

I think as long as a man isn't really cheesy with an approach, most anywhere is a good place. To think of all the potential soulmates we've missed out on because we were too chicken to introduce ourselves...:(

[GOPisEvil]

61. I woul never hit on a woman at the gym.

I figure she's there to work out, not be bothered by some sweaty guy. :)

[u4ic]

65. Plus

we prefer it when WE make them sweaty, not some darned treadmill. :D

[GOPisEvil]

67. Well...um...

:blush:

:D

[BiggJawn]

72. According to my ESSO, that's spot-on.

You MIGHT get away with chatting up the step aerobic girls in pink, but don't EVEN approach that woman over on the free weights doin' squats with 375 unless you wanna spot for her...

Frankly, I'd be...Oh, hell, what am I talking about? I'd sooner vote ReTHUGlican than be seen in a gym in work-out clothes...

[Kenneth ken]

64. yeah but

a) is the disheveled, hot, sweaty, sweat-stinky guy going to be appealing? :)
and
b) do you really want to stop your workout for however-long to chat someone up?

I guess I could have said something like, 'Hi, I don't want to interrupt you, but would you have time to stop somewhere for coffe/juice/something after you're done with your workout?"

That never occurred to me. I still go to the gym, just to swim (which is a really hard place to strike up a convo), so I guess I could find some other activity there and give that opener a try.

Though I'm kinda old now, and set in my singledom ways, so dating in general has less appeal than it did when I was in my twenties.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. Start by saying hello, for heaven's sake!

If she doesn't seem happy that you said hello, move on.

Women are human beings, too.

[friesianrider]

75. WELL said, Lydia!!

Hear, hear!

[Kenneth ken]

82. I say hello all the time

men, women, kids, dogs. I guess I don't think of that as an opening approach, so I don't use it as a way to gauge interest. I just think of it as a way to acknowledge someone's existence, in a friendly way.

You may have posted this before I posted my reply to the OP on her being flattered response to my first post.

:hi:

[SarahB]

78. I think...

when a woman hits you with enough eye contact to let you know she's interested is probably the key. If you see a woman in sweatpants (capri sweatpants no less, Matcom) and her tank top looking rather pale and sickly buying Twizzlers at CVS at 8:00 on a Friday night, she's probably not looking to be picked up or checked out.

I'm big on eye contact. When the eye contact becomes mutual, then give it a shot. Otherwise, she probably wants some space, isn't interested, or is otherwise spoken for. :)

[Kenneth ken]

96. yeah

probably right. I'm pretty sure I passed up a few opportunities with women who would have been amenable to being asked out. My hindsight is better than my in-the-moment-sight.

But there were also several opportunities that I did recognize and act on, and they led to dating experiences that lasted varying lengths of time and ended for a variety of reasons.

So I did learn to read and recognize at least some signals. :)

:hi:

[Wetzelbill]

58. I should also add that most women I am interested in

I usually develop a friendship with first. I get nervous about taking that next step because I'm always nervous about messing up and not only getting shot down, but losing her friendship as well. That's really tough for me, making that type of a transition. I'm very worried about crossing a line, you know? Most of my female friends are pretty spectacular too. I think a guy often worries about whose in his league and who isn't. All of that ties in.

[GOPisEvil]

59. Are you my twin?

:D

[Wetzelbill]

62. I think I'm your alter ego or something

Kinda like Tyler Durden. You post as me when your not posting as the real GOPisEvil. :)

[GOPisEvil]

63. Heh!

:thumbsup:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

74. I don't know, somebody should give you guys a

"signals reading" class.

Graduate student males are some of the shyest creatures on earth, and I recall many an occasion when I did everything but deck myself out in green lights, and they would just smile as if they thought I might bite their heads off for speaking.

You are safe in approaching if the woman smiles back when you smile at her.

Half your platonic friends may be lusting after you, and you don't even know it.

Here are some clues:

1. Does she treat you differently than she treats other men?
2. Does she make excuses to be near you?
3. Does she wink at you?
4. Does she touch you a lot (assuming that she's not touchy-feely with everyone)?

I'm sure that other DU women can add some more signals that women give off.

[friesianrider]

89. Totally...

I always make excuses to ne around a guy I am interested in.

[Kenneth ken]

90. true

men definitely need to be better at reading signals. At the same time, only one of those you listed might be applicable when encountering a woman in a neutral location for the first time.

Women need to wink more :7

:hi:

[Wetzelbill]

97. damn I am such a fool

......

a big one....

[Mutley]

126. I'd be careful about the smiling thing alone.

I smile at everyone I make eye contact with, it's just a habit from years in retail, plus I'm just a friendly person. But, I'm not available, thus unapproachable. I'd make sure smiling is in addition to some of the other signals.

[Doctor_J]

92. Well said, WB

worrying about where one's sights should be set is a problem. I read an interview with Teri Hatcher in which she claimed that no one ever asks her out any more. well, shit, is it any wonder?

I too tend to become attracted to women whom I already care deeply about as friends, and there is no easy way to bring up the subject of the transition.

[Elidor]

70. A lot of guys' confidence is inversely proportional to

The hotness of the babe. Beautiful women often complain that men don't approach them. Funny, huh? Perhaps you should work on appearing approachable. Smiles and eye contact make a big difference for chickenshits err...guys like me. Yeah.

I'm happily taken, otherwise, Yowza!

[friesianrider]

73. I TRY to be approachable.

Is it my shoes? :P

I smile I lot, and ALWAYS look over to a guy a lot of I find him physically attractive. And whenever I make the move, the guys act all relieved. I just don't get why, if they were checking me out, they didn't make the first move.

[Elidor]

80. I'm so glad I found my true love

I hated all that awkward shite involved with dating. It made it hard to enjoy myself. It's amazing we ever work it all out.

[Dastard Stepchild]

71. I never approach women either....

Even when I am on the prowl.

:evilgrin: <----- they really need a devil woman pic.

[BiggJawn]

76. Fear of Pepper Spray.

Yeah, nothing says "Feck OFF, Dork!" like a dose of capsicum oleoresin in the eyes.

Face it, girls, you just ain't worth the risk.

[sleipnir]

77. Role reversal in the 90's had a lot to do with it.

Say what you will, but dating and the bar scene changed drastically in the 90's. The 60's might have been the revolutionary decade of love and sex, but 90's were the revolutionary dating decade.

Women could feel free to ask men out without the social stigma. The whole scene changed in the 90's, now it was almost equal in terms of "first approach." I think this is a good thing, but the reality is that now you are expected to approach a man, if you are interested. Men can still feel free to approach women in a bar, but a good deal of the single-sided pressure was removed in the last 15 years.

There was also the darker side to the 90's freedom, the legal aspect. I think that a lot of men became afraid of asking strange women due to a deeper fear of legal reprisal. This may sound ludicrous, but I know this is true to some degree, because a couple friends of mine joke about it in the bars, but there is an underlying fear in their humor.

Let me say, I believe their fear is quite misplaced. But, the whole explosion of "sexual harassment" lawsuits really did socially change a lot more than people are willing to admit. At risk of hyperbole, some guys see this as "Look at woman the wrong way or say the wrong thing, you might get sued." Even though what I'm talking about was primary in the workplace, you still carry over fears and concerns into your everyday life.

I think what you and many others are experiencing is, to some degree, an aftershock of that era.

[SarahB]

81. I'd say make yourself approachable.

Smile, use eye contact, humor, etc. Seems to have worked at times for me anyway. :shrug:

[The Straight Story]

83. SO, you wanna go out?

Just kidding, happily married here! :)

[stlsaxman]

85. As Capt. Beefheart once so aptly sang-

"Men- you been lookin' all a-round for the women,
but they always been right there.
nowadays a woman has to haul off and hit a man
to make him know she's there,
The other day a woman came up and hit me
like I wasn't even there!
Then it dawned on me, man
that a man been doin' a woman unfair...

none o' my women have tears in their eyes
you can ask 'em about me, i swear and they'll tell you-
'That's one Man, I swear! Yeah- that's a Man!'"

"Nowadays A Woman Gotta Hit A Man" by Capt. Beefheart And The Magic Band
on the album "Clear Spot" 1972

[khashka]

88. I can't speak for all men

but I don't approach women because

1) I'm gay
2) Many of them are armed


No, seriously. A lot of guys can be real assholes when they come on to women and almost every woman has had experience with that. The sort of guy you would like to make the first move is aware of that and doesn't want to come across that way. So he's subtle. Instead of coming on to a girl he just makes himself available and let's her control the action. And, also, a lot of guys just find it incredibly sexy when the gal makes the first move.


Guys have a major problem here. There was an earlier thread about leaving your business card with an attractive waitress with your phone number and a note saying "call me if you'd like to go out". And several women said they would find that offensive. Huh? So he makes himself available to her but leaves the situation entirely within her control ? And that's offensive? What's a guy to do?

I'm not trying to trash either gender, here.... but some women need to loosen up. A dinner invitation is not a minor species of rape. And some women act like it is. And it makes men timid.

Just the way I see it, sorry if anyone finds it offensive.

Khash.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

122. The waitress and business card situation

I would find it creepy and cowardly, because it would say to me, "I like your looks, but I don't want to bother to talk to you and establish a rapport before asking you out. If you like my looks and just want to fuck, call me."

That's how it would come off.

Yeah, the whole sexual harassment thing is a lame excuse. Sexual harassment is precisely defined in law, and asking someone out is just fine as long as you aren't a supervisor who hints that going out with you is a requirement for keeping the job, or if you aren't a married or otherwise attached guy who's looking for a bit on the side, or if the woman hasn't already told you no. No woman is going to slap a sexual harassment suit on a male co-worker of equal rank or from another department who says, "Wanna go to lunch?"

[bettyellen]

146. wow, i don't think it's creepy at all...

i mean, if you're a waitress, you're not usually supposed to be hanging out with the customers getting to know you them so well, and that goes for most jobs. and when someone gets to see you work with people, they see your personality on display too, it's not all about looks necesarily. i think it's cool because you can just ignore it or go for it without involving your job in the least. and he spares himself face to face rejection. better than having a customer comimg back just to see you when you're not interested.
anyway, the cowardly part? well, it's less cowardly than most of the men on this thread, apparently. LOL.

[khashka]

161. So I prove my point

Lydia thinks it's creepy and Bettyellen thinks it's cool, Two ladies who totally disagree on this. So what's a man to do? Make a rather oblique approach, make a direct one, or wait for her to do the job for him?

I agree with Bettyellen (but since she agrees with me that's no surprise). My situation is slightly different as a gay man. But it's comparable. I would never openly approach someone who's working. But I would find a way to let them know I was available if they were interested. And then leave it at that. He can either ignore it, go for it, or politely say "Thanks, but no thanks"

And sure, we guys find it difficult to go for 30 seconds without thinking about sex. But it's not all we think about. And letting someone know you are interested doesn't always translate as "Hey wanna fuck?", a lot of the time it means "I find you fascinating and would like the chance to get to know you".

Khash.

[CanuckAmok]

91. Fear. Big fat fear.

Big fat monsterous fear.

Big fat monsterous eye-eating fear.

Big fat monsterous eye-eating spleen-splitting fear.

[RandomKoolzip]

93. "Beer?"

Dude, I'm totally not reading you.

"Spear?"

[Floogeldy]

94. Fear of arrest

:o

[CanuckAmok]

114. No, no...

Being arrested is like anything else. Once you've done it once, it becmes routine.

[enigmatic]

102. Fear of rejection is the ultimate paralyzer

No doubt.

[ChaoticSilly]

98. Several reasons for me

It's a little bit of fear of rejection, or at least being rejected in a rude and condescending way, a little bit of being uncomfortable around people I don't know, and a little bit of not wanting to presume that a smile means anything but just being friendly.

I think the biggest reason though is that I just don't have anything to offer. I'm not physically attractive - downright ugly is more like it. I don't have a career, I have a job - and a rather dead end job at that. I'm not really comfortable around people until I get to know them, which is another way of saying I'm pretty terrible at communicating. Maybe it's just sort of media created myth, but it seems like the number of women actually interested in poor, ugly geeks is pretty low.

Also, like a lot of other people have said - a woman making the first move is sweet. A man making the first move is a potential stalker.

[trackfan]

99. I would like to associate myself with the comments here

stating that fear is the main factor. I'm not only afraid of women; I'm afraid of everyone.

I would also like to know where are all these women that nowadays supposedly feel free to approach men?

For the record, I am married 6 years now. One may ask: how did it work out for you. The answer: pure happenstance luck. We cannot underestimate the role of Fortune/Chance in these matters. Hence the expression "to get lucky".

[Wetzelbill]

105. I'm hoping dumb luck will come my way, hell it's worked before

in other areas of my life. Why not love?

[WCGreen]

101. Dudes... Go out and ask a woman for coffee...

All she can say is either yes or no....

The problem, and I had it once, is that you build up such expectations about a love, you are fantasizing before you even get to know her....

And so you are afraid to ask her out on the chance that the no will short circuit your fantasy world...

Don't wait. Life is far too short to waste on imagining....

Look even if ten women say know, there are still thousands of more out there who would say yes...

If only you asked.....

When I finnaly started to ask, I was surpised at how much I was going out, having fun.... And believe you me I'm not eye candy by any stretch of the imagination.....

Everyone loves a confident person... Be confident, look her in the eye and tell her you would like to have coffee sometime soon...

Just Do It for christshake...

[enigmatic]

107. Oh, I'm confident now..

But I was confidently scared of rejection for a long time, too..

[WCGreen]

108. Yes, marriage tends to make one confident doesn't it....

[enigmatic]

112. Yep

And she made the first move, so I never had to worry about that, too..

[WCGreen]

116. Mrs. WCGreen told me she wanted to be friends....

I told her, in the door of my apartment that I had enough friends thank you and if you didn;t want to spend the night with me, why did you come over to my apartment....

I made her breakfast in bed......

Confidence

[Mutley]

128. Wow! Sounds like a romance novel!

I didn't think that scene actually ever happened in real life.

[Wetzelbill]

163. damn who the hell is this guy?

that might be the smoothest move I have ever heard.

[KitchenWitch]

184. Shit

You could market that as a motivational poster...:rofl:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

123. Great advice!

One of my fellow students in grad school told me that when he was a senior in high school, he decided that he wanted a social life. So he listed all the girls in his class that he found attractive and went down the list, approaching each one of them and asking them out on a casual date. He was turned down a couple of times, but he just moved on to the next girl on the list. Eventually, one of them said yes.

[jurassicpork]

103. Two words:

Sexual and Harassment.

JP
http://jurassicpork.blogspot.com

[KeepItReal]

110. One word: "QUIT"

Can't be sexual harassment if you don't work there...

[gmoney]

111. You're pretty intimidating...

Based on the photos you've posted, I think most guys would guess you're either taken or way out of their league. You're gorgeous.

Every time I've approached a woman anywhere near as attractive as you, she ALWAYS says she has a boyfriend. Maybe it's just me and my approach and/or appearance. But it hasn't been encouraging.

So, in a way, I guess you could consider it a compliment? :shrug:

[jurassicpork]

113. Where are the pics?

I'd like to see some.

JP
http://jurassicpork.blogspot.com

[friesianrider]

118. Wow...thank you so much :)

You've made my night :)

[Wetzelbill]

121. I know

I rarely ever find a single woman these days. Most women I talk to have boyfriends.

Fresianrider is gorgeous though. You got that right. :)

[Wetzelbill]

120. For the record, friesianrider, I probably..........

would suck it up and ask you out if I ever met you. You're gorgeous and a horse lover, so if I passed that chance up, well, I would be an absolute idiot. :)

(I'd totally chicken out)

[flvegan]

127. I'm very shy. Though, with you, considering, I'd SOOOOOO

ask you out/ask you for your number.

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

129. Maybe you should go to Italy or France

There, the men chase women down the street and it's considered a type of sport. The women know this and either keep walking away or eventually speak to the guy. The men expect rejection in the majority of cases and its no dishonor, but they play the percentages.

[Schema Thing]

130. You people scare the hell out of me

That's my excuse. Women, and clowns. Scary.

[Buns_of_Fire]

131. Read "Love Signals" by David Givens

I got it several years ago, and it's fascinating. Link to Amazon

It also helped me understand why just pointing to my crotch and whimpering probably wasn't the best approach.

[Schema Thing]

132. I've always been able to find a toilet facility in a foreign country

using that method, so it isn't completely useless.

[Misunderestimator]

134. It shouldn't be a man/woman thing... Everyone appreciates someone making

the first move. I'm pretty shy when it comes to actually expressing interest in someone romantically, so it usually takes someone being the first to approach me. And there are no guys involved. ;)

[Wetzelbill]

164. I have a question

in your position, it would have to be pretty odd just approaching someone, because, you face not only the risk of them not being interested in you, but they may not even be a lesbian. So, my question is would you mainly only look for someone when you were, say out in say a gay club or something like that, or were you comfortable looking for someone pretty much anywhere? I don't know how women react to that, I know some guys get violent if a guy hits on them, I was curious if women had those same risks too. :)

[Misunderestimator]

174. It's definitely a challenge in a "normal"...

non-gay environment. But, no, women (at least in my experience) don't have the same risks of a woman taking offense and becoming violent as a reaction to flirting. I've never seen that, and the few times I've made a mistake and approached a straight woman that way... they've either responded, or they've been flattered (right here I need a little full-of-itself smilie).

Oh... and I have NEVER met someone I've become involved with in a "gay" place. :shrug:

[Wetzelbill]

176. thanks for answering

I had a bisexual friend when I lived in Seattle and I knew he mainly got his dates online within the local GLB community, but he didn't ever go up and hit on guys ever. He pretty much said it was too risky unless he was at a GLB club or something. Nice guy though, I got along with him really well.

I like the idea of you wanting a full-of-itself smilie, lol. Just don't get too arrogant now. (damn, I bet you get waaayyyy better women than I ever have :cry: )

:)

[Rabrrrrrr]

137. Fear of rejection, and fear of a lawsuit/being arrested

[Doctor_J]

138. Here's what it boils down to

I posted some thoughts up above (last night), let me sum them up.

Let's say I am in an establishment, and see an attractive woman whom I'd like to get to know. I'm pretty average looking and I'm 48 (I am also bright, warm, funny, a great listener, and compassionate, but we're sitting in a bar, so wtf does all that matter?). You can bet that that woman knows, with 95% certainty, that within 20 minutes someone younger & better looking is ALSO going to show some interest. Why would she bother with me?

[bettyellen]

150. no no no no... really good looking guys are sooo spoiled

we dems want more average looking, but interesting and fun guys.
we ain't about the money, that's the apolitical and repug selfish bitches who like the shallow hegde fund pretty boys.
and every guy who hits on me has been younger, often too much so...and it's wearing thin.
:cry:

[leftofthedial]

139. because of how we are treated when we do

[MrScorpio]

140. I got married

That's the way the cookie crumbles, ladies

[bettyellen]

143. guys are such dumbasses- every woman i know has to make the first move

and the second, and the third...i'm not kidding, every single woman i know made the first move with her SO or with everyone she's dated in the longest time. we don't get it. we don't even talk about it anymore because we've done the topic to death.
seriously, you know who that leaves hitting on women? men who have found way too much courage in a bottle and are now super obnoxious and skeezers casting a very wide net trying to get laid. and those are the guys getting turned down.

[Doctor_J]

144. I am in the opposite situation, Betty

I am carefully pursuing a relationship with a long-time friend, and have had to give up trying because she's simply not responding. At all. I don't really want to "cast a wide net" - I want to very gradually develop something with THIS particular fish.

[bettyellen]

148. do you think she knows you are interested?

what signs have you given her? and her response?
does she talk about really liking other guys in front of you? if we just wanna be friends that's usually how we put a wall up, so to speak.

[Doctor_J]

152. She knows

her response - "I'm not ready for any type of relationship". In this case it might be true, since sh'es ending a 15-year thing legally this week. She's doesn't talk about other guys. In fact I hardly see her. Two friendly phone messages I left this week remain unanswered, so the message is becoming clear.

[bettyellen]

153. okay, that sucks

but at least you know. so you gotta start looking elsewhere, right?
i'm horrible at flirting myself, but i love excuses to talk to strangers. so whenever i see someone i think looks interesting, i ask to borrow a pen. or i ask them where they got their shirt or watch, and say i'd like to get one like it for my brother. i became a lot friendlier years ago after i heard people thought i was stuck up- i was actually just awkward and kinda shy. i was mortified anyone would think i was rude or aloof, so i worked on it. a lot.
of course when i have a big crush i'm like a deer frozen in the headlights and all i can do is just follow them around and hope for the best. :shrug:

[no name no slogan]

154. could that possibly mean

that the woman in the elevator who liked my shoes may have been FLIRTING with ME? ME?

lordy i am such a dork :banghead:

[bettyellen]

155. fuck yeah! now go find her, and compliment her purse! say you think your

sis/ mom/ sis/ cousin is very stylish in a classic/hip/funky /whatever way and she would love that fucking purse. this way, you are not complimenting her looks (even though you like em) and so not objectifying her or starting an awkward conversation- you're complimenting her taste, her judgement- always a good thing.
if she is still smiling ask about what stores carry it, etc. or where you can get something similar.

[no name no slogan]

156. woohoo!

actually she first noticed my shoes when i was still married-- although i've seen her since and i'm pretty sure she's seen my "empty" ring finger on my left hand.

she does work on my floor-- now i just gotta go looking. time to grab that manilla folder and notepad and pretend i'm looking for a meeting! :woohoo:

[bettyellen]

159. go for it.

we don't usually compliment guys for no reason, unless they are really good friends and we know they are bumming. otherwise, she likes you.
use the purse line, because if she really was flirting, she'll get it, and get it that you get it.
you know what i mean? but don't be a dummy and stare at the purse the whole time, okay? that's too scary and she may think you do mean the purse.
let me know how it goes!
:)

[GOPisEvil]

158. I fully admit to being a complete and total dumbass.

If I were any better at reading all the body language, then I'd make more 1st moves.

:hug:

[NewJeffCT]

170. I think you're right

With my ex-wife, she was the one that initiated our first dates, made all the initial moves - including sex, said that she loved me first, etc. Kind of made it easy for me, though I did ask her to marry me. Unfortunately, when we had some bad luck right after we got married, I didn't really know how to take the initiative and things went downhill quickly. Granted, it wasn't as simple as all that... but, that is part of it.

[friesianrider]

177. Seems to be my experience! nt

nt

[Wapsie B]

179. That wasn't my experience at all.

I have to wonder who and where are all these guys who get hit on by women?

[MrScorpio]

145. I never had a problem making the first move

I met some pretty bad, bad girls that way.

Nothing like a little excitement to make life worth living.

[bettyellen]

160. i don't doubt it.

:loveya:

[Wetzelbill]

169. blah you good looking smooth people

have all the luck. I just get by on charm and humor, it serves me ok, but I'm cursed with not being very assertive. :)

[dpbrown]

162. I guess it would be because I'm married

;)

But you were looking so cute!

DPB

[supernova]

165. Well, this explains a lot to me

I was curious about this phenomenon as well.

I would love to go out more, but I find it hard to meet men that I might be interested in.

I am very shy also, as a woman. And like Bettyellen, I've worked on being less shy when in public. I'm not really aloof, either. "Shyness" is really the sense of feeling overly stimulated in loud, busy environments... such as bars. I tend to become more lively when the background decibels and activity are lowered. And I especially like it when there are maybe 3-4 other people.

So guys like being approached? I suspected but I had no idea. The other thing for me is, I have absolutely no judgement about men whatsoever, if you're just talking about finding a guy in a bar one night. Odds are heavily in favor I'd pick up the creep. And no, I'm not talking about a one night stand kinda thing either, though I've done that too. Talk about mixed signals. :crazy:

So I miss a lot of the signals men give out too. I think at this point in my life, I'd rather get to know someone over a little while: coffee, a movie, or a night out, and since this is a political board, a couple of campaign events. IOW, let me see you in context.

People have to grow on me. I know it's not fair, most men are good. But it's really my initial judgement I don't trust. There are lots of DU guys I'd love to go out with. :loveya: But, I've "known" you all for a while too. So, I would have no problem transferring that to RL.

*Sigh* It is a wonder how anybody finds anybody.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

181. LOTS of women won't go near the bar scene

It's not just the creep to good guy ratio. Like supernova, I can't deal with loud, noisy environments like the typical bar or, in my earlier life, the typical student house party, unless I'm with a group of friends. I literally get sensory overload and the strangers in the crowd become one big blur.

I've met my gentleman friends in smaller, less high-pressure environments, such as classes, small parties given by friends, meetings of social, artistic, or activist organizations, libraries, coffee shops, or blind dates.

I'm 55 years old and a veteran of the 1970s social scene, and I've NEVER made ANY kind of a romantic connection at a bar or a "zoo" type party.

Guys, get out of the bar scene unless you want to meet more Republican yuppie wannabes who have their heart set on a hedge fund administrator. I don't know any intelligent, liberal women over the age of 30 and very few under the age of thirty who frequent the meat market bars.

[yvr girl]

166. I wish they would, because I'm too shy to do it myself

Of course I'm rarely around strangers either, so it's a moot point.

Destined to be single forever... *sigh*

[Doctor_J]

168. You won't be single forever, yvr

Your pics are beautiful, and the personality that eminates from your posts is as well. I am trying to get a job in Vancouver. when I get there, I will come and see you.

[yvr girl]

171. It's a date

And thanks.

[leftofthedial]

172. a beautiful, smart, funny woman like you

can't stay single for long (unless you want to)

it would defy the laws of nature

[PittPoliSci]

173. mace and tasers.

:evilgrin:

[Courtesy Flush]

175. That's easy.... because I'm married! :):):) n/t

[JI7]

178. i don't think many women would like to be told how hot they were

and how they were being checked out all night by a total stranger.at least i wouldn't. so i would not really go for that.

for me i just prefer someone who says hi and starts a normal conversation. and if interested they ask for your number or give you their number afterwards. it's probably better for guys who are afraid of rejection also. they might be able to figure out if someone is interested in them by the way they speak to you.

[friesianrider]

180. Oh, of course not...I agree.

Particularly by a total stranger...in the comfort of a semi-committed relationship or something is different.

I too prefer just a simple hello and a normal conversation as an introduction. Even if there is no chemistry romantically, I've met a fair amount of guys who are my good friends that way.

[JI7]

183. i agree with this

a normal conversation can lead to common interests or anything else that might get one interested in the other which would not happen just based on looks and one liners.

and many times i (and many other women) find a guy more attractive as they get to know them even though they didn't feel anything at first looks. of course the opposite is true also. a guy you found totally hot at first can completely turn you off by something he does or says.

[Greyhound]

182. I'm sorry we've never met, I never hesitate to approach women. n/t