Yeah, i'm new here...

[theoldgeezer]

I hadn't read all that much, just picked some topics in the subject forums that fascinated me and then discovered people don't visit them much. Too bad. I love a good discussion.

So, what's with the all the shouting? I always thought myself a careful thinker, and LOVE to see and read other careful thinkers and speakers. They don't need to agree with me either, just demonstrate to me they think and can present that thought coherently. Is this not the place for such? What has "progressive" become? A bastion of partisan yelling? Reminds me of a visit recently to Yahoo Chat, where questioning one of the chatter's statistics - and then proving him dead wrong - got me labelled a "Communist fascist, idiot liberal Sheeple". I, for one, feel no need to bolster my own beliefs with raised volume. Surely, among this group, there's others with the same type of approach... Isn't there?

I even have a couple of threads which have responses that sound a bit menacing referring to "reasonable" as something bad. Now, I realize that there must be every personality type known to exist here, as well as probably people of most political stripes. I'm just looking for the kind that are more like me... Have definite and studied opinions, and are willing to argue them without assuming the other guy has bad intentions - just for disagreeing with me. Over the years I've lived in several states, in a variety of cultures, from "middle class white america" to the center of and working within, the largest Indian Reservation in the country. Over this time, I have discovered that there is a fundamental layer where most people are very much alike - regardless of political leanings, cultural background, race, ethnicity, economic status, or other factor. This wasn't really how I was raised.

My mother and father grew up during the Depression, and they carried the common attitudes of the day - racial prejudices and stereotypes included. To thier credit, thier good character prevailed, and they meshed well and came be dearly loved and respected by people from every background - and quickly and completely abandoned the baggage they brought from thier backgrounds. I was old enough to observe and understand this transformation, as it was during my teen and young adult years. Perhaps it is this observation that has effectively altered my outlook to be quite unlike a lot of people. I have faith in the humanity of all. This is what I came to believe to be the ultimate in terms of being "liberal" and "progressive". I prefer to peel away the layers of our speech and find that nitty-gritty point where we have some commonality, and then work forward from that.

This place bills itself as a home for "progressives", and not associated with a political party exclusively. It is a place for open, honest, and unpretentious debate... without fear of being personally attacked, is it not?

And, if I'm in the wrong place... WHAT IS the right place?

[Heidi]

1. Welcome to DU, theoldgeezer . . .

I understand where you're coming from. The progressives at DU are not in 100 percent agreement on every point, but I think DU is as close as you'll probably come to finding "the right place." Welcome. :hi:

(By the way, I'm with you all the way on the thoughts below.)

Over the years I've lived in several states, in a variety of cultures, from "middle class white america" to the center of and working within, the largest Indian Reservation in the country. Over this time, I have discovered that there is a fundamental layer where most people are very much alike - regardless of political leanings, cultural background, race, ethnicity, economic status, or other factor. . . I prefer to peel away the layers of our speech and find that nitty-gritty point where we have some commonality, and then work forward from that.

[enigmatic]

2. It happens

First off; welcome!

DU is a great place, but it's full of flawed humans, too; just like life. In life, you have to go through it w/ a thick skin because it's frequently not pretty; DU is like that, too.

The best advice I can give you is just to stay detached to a certain degree w/ the hot-button issues; internet forums are notorious for bringing out the best and worst in people, especially from the safety of anonymous posting.

And if it gets too hot there, hang out in The Lounge; we're friendly, unless you like Tom Cruise:)

[Maddy McCall]

7. Don't know about Cruise...

but he defends Rove AND Reagan. :eyes:

[murielm99]

3. There are all types of personalities here.

I am amazed by the depth of knowledge, the careful research, and the variety of people who post here.

You can find thoughtful debate. But, given the state of the country and the world, you will find a lot of anger and disagreement, too.

You don't have to agree with every opinion expressed. You can verbalize your disagreement, or you can ignore the post. Read the rules, to get an idea of what is acceptable. Use the ignore and alert features as liberally as you wish.

This is the Internet. Sometimes, you will need a thick skin. Some people say things online in ways they would not if the discussion was face-to-face.

Welcome to DU. I love this place.

[stellanoir]

4. Welcome to DU

and consider not being so quick to judge. We have a delightful mix of people here who often do not agree. But there are some phenomenal minds who post and lurke here often, and when there is breaking news, I swear there is no better site.

Yes of course there is rangling as well. But what used to make this country great was that it was the land of the "lively discussion" which spoke far above the propaganda. Sadly it's no longer so.

I hope we all stick together here through thick and thin, through the revelatory, conspiratorial, frivolous, spurious, and intermmitably locked threads, and remain friends.

Hang out for a while. It changes constantly. I assure you.

[Tallison]

5. Thanks for the reminder...

"I have faith in the humanity of all. This is what I came to believe to be the ultimate in terms of being "liberal" and "progressive". I prefer to peel away the layers of our speech and find that nitty-gritty point where we have some commonality, and then work forward from that."

So well said.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theoldgeezer]

8. Wow... Just precisely what I"m talking about.

Here, in post 51, you insinuate that the Clinton administration is to blame for the Plame outing. Hmmm…Karl Rove defenders don’t fare well at DU, because, honestly, what is there to defend?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

>>> NOWHERE do I blame "The Clinton administration" for any of it. I don't mention OR IMPLY anything of the sort. I said that I have read opinion bits that seem as credible as current rumors, that say that Plame's identity was leaked well prior to any comments by Novak - possibly even prior to the Bush administration. This does not blame the Clinton administration, NOR DOES IT ACCUSE. Did it ever occur to you that sometimes "secrets" slip out unintentionally? Nowere am I accusing ANYONE, actually, of "outing" Plame. On the contrary, I'm pointing out that people are in all-fired hurry to pin it on one person, and that's not reasonable. I prefer to know the truth, and right now, ain't a one of us knows what that is for sure.

You say that there was no “substantial fraud” in the recent election (do you defend Bush in the 2000 election, too???) Post #9 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

>>>> That's right. That's my firm belief, that there is no evidence of any election-altering fraud. I've read a million things about it (well, ok, that's not true, maybe a thousand..), and remain convinced that nobody has yet to prove fraud. Maybe my "level" of what it takes to convince me is higher than yours. That's fine. I fail to see why this makes me some sort of evil person.

Against ALL intelligence about 911, YOU say that Al Qaeda and Iraq had “a relationship of sorts” prior to 9/11. Indeed, you started a thread about it, and quoted the Weekly Standard as you source:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

>>>> Yes, I posted it. I read the article through, and comparing notes with what I've read elsewhere, and my own memory from a few years ago, I find it interesting. I do note the author is careful to disclaim many things as only "possible" and I figure that one person's work will eventually be obsoleted by later work, or other information. It seems to me you're not even faintly interested in exploring the possibility. Read it, remain a skeptic. Disprove it. Whatever you like, just explain why you have to attack me over it.

This one pisses me off…you insinuate that poor people are stupid and incapable of making wise choices. You, somehow, are superior to them because you once were poor. But these poor people deserve no subsidies or entitlements, according to you. What do you propose? Faith-based initiatives? Post numbers 13 and 15:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

>>>> Really? I "insinuate" that poor people are stupid and incapable? No, I said that a lot of people make bad decisions and that ends up causing them to be poor. If you're unable to accept that this ABSOLUTE AND UNVARNISHED TRUTH is real, then I guess you'll just have to be mad at me ... or whatever it is you're doing. Why not just join the thread, if you want to discuss the topic, and see where it goes, instead of making totally uncalled for assumptions? Again, if it somehow evil to realize that most "poverty" is caused by bad decisions on SOMEONE'S part, then we're just spinning useless yarns. Been poor, know lots of people who are, and I know some who CHRONIC poverty cases, and I can point out over and over again, in each of thier cases, how decisions were PRECISELY the cause of thier financial woes. I mean, I'd have to be calling myself "stupid and incapable", as well. Or maybe you didn't notice that part.

Yes, there are people who face desperate times due to things outside of thier control, but the conversation hadn't even gotten to them, last I read the thread.

So, would you care to point out for me because I might have missed that post—Just where at DU do you demonstrate anything close to progressive thought???


>>>> I haven't noticed you displaying any. You're leaping to conclusions, accusing me of saying things I didn't say, and saying things that don't add up to "progressive" either. Again, I refer prescisely back to my original post in this thread... About people disagreeing, or at least discussing something - WITHOUT ASSUMING BAD INTENT on the part of others. I didn't ask you to 'defend' me, as I didn't feel I needed defense. I'm just looking for conversation and debate about how we talk to each other...

But, if I don't display "progressive" thought, then why not tell me what "progressive" thought is?

[MrScorpio]

9. Welcome to DU

Stick around!

[ClintonTyree]

10. Well, it IS named" Democratic Underground"...........

so I guess your assertion that we're not connected to any particular political party is somewhat flawed, but we do have a number of Greens, some Libertarians and a smattering of Socialists, perhaps even a few Communists. The opinions of posters will usually reflect that sooner or later although overtly, rabid members of these more fringe groups aren't thumping their chests all the time.

People are always going to be attacked for various reasons. When you have so many people in the "big tent" there's bound to be disagreements. Don't take it personally, I've been banged around somewhat here myself, as have most others. No one's right all the time.

Don't take it personally and continue to enjoy DU for what it is, a melting pot of ideas and personalities that aren't going to mesh all the time. You opinions are as valid as anyone else's. :hi:

[theoldgeezer]

11. It wasn't my assertion, it was DU's own assertion

Is there some kind of error? I"m assuming this is not some party organ of some kind, right?

[Maddy McCall]

12. Are you asking if Republicans are welcome here?

Just wondering.

[uppityperson]

15. You do not need to belong to the Democratic party

You should be somewhat open minded and not a bush supporter though. There are all types here, from all along the political line of moderate to way liberal, all types religious and sexual and color and height and movie likes and cat or dog or no animal and food and family and all those sorts of things. Provided you are open minded and not a rabid bush supporter, at least not wanting to promote that here.

The forums get a bit reactive at times, right now seems to be one of those times. There has been a fair bit of emotional happenings this last week but it will calm down again. Stick around, listen, talk with us. Welcome to DU.

[Lex]

19. Party organ?

LOL!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

13. Welcome to DU, oh geezerly one.

I believe your "fundamental layer" theory is correct. However, there is a negative element to that layer as well as a positive one. Our tendencies toward prejudice and developing stereotypes, knee-jerk reactions, and our concepts of "the ideal human" which we can never live up to are all a part of that.

Personal attacks should certainly be frowned upon, and apologized for. But maybe we also need to accept that they'll occur from time to time since we are, after all, only human.

There are so many wonderful discussions here, as well as genuine demonstrations of caring and decency. And while the attacks kind of jump out and grab us; I'll bet there are several thousand personal attacks written every day that never get posted, simply because the author gave a little thought before clicking that "post message" button.

Not to worry, Theoldgeezer. You've come to the right place! :hi:

[baby_mouse]

14. Nice style, sir

I look forward to your posts!

Hi, from fellow newb

:hi:

[Floogeldy]

16. Fuck that!

Let's talk about you and your perceptions, instead.

Or was there some other subject to your post that I missed?

[Wapsie B]

17. Welcome to DU!

Glad you're here.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[khashka]

18. We're not that bad really

Likle all people we can get a bit carried away and a little emotionally invested in an argument. And a lot has happened lately, so things have been a little contentious.

I think you'll find that most people are welcome, I'm a Libertarian and I feel very much at home here. Give it some time.

Anyway, welcome!

(The Lounge, however, is not the best place for reasoned debate - it's where we hang out to be silly, flirt, discuss what's happening in our lives, stuff like that.)


Khash.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

20. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[I Have A Dream]

21. Hi, theoldgeezer! Glad to have you here.

I am a progressive. In reference to some of your past posts, some of the things that you've said I agree with, and I disagree with others.

However, you're obviously a very intelligent, thoughtful person, so I feel that you have much to add to the forums.

I think that many people come here to vent and rant because it's the only place that they can do this. Many of us live in areas where there are no other liberal people like us, and we're constantly bombarded with what feels to us like propaganda (whether true or not) throughout our day. I feel that you will have a very difficult time here if you expect people to be really willing to have "an open mind" about Bush and his administration. I think that most of the people who are here have already come to the conclusion that this administration is one that we can never trust. Many of us started with what we considered to be an open mind but we're never going to be back to the place where we're ever going to give them the benefit of the doubt again. (Particularly when they don't make any effort to include people like us in any way in the decision-making process in this country.) I guess I'd have to say that, to me, the Right started it! (Maybe it's childish, but it's truly how I feel.)

I think that one thing that you have to realize is that, as a low poster, things that you say are more likely to be viewed as possibly being from someone who is trolling. (I am absolutely NOT saying that this is the case, but it is something that you need to be aware of when people look at your posts while your post number is low.)

I don't think that this site fits anyone 100%. However, I've not found anything like it in reference to finding a place that feels like home. When I don't agree with someone, I make a decision as to whether this is a battle in which I want to invest my time. Sometimes I just let things go, and other times I choose to speak my mind. However, I try to keep in mind that I'm still a new member of DU, so they really don't know that I'm not just here to cause trouble. I try to take this into account in reference to how I word things.

I hope that you'll stay, but you will need to be willing to be called on some things because some of your beliefs are not what many of the other posters believe. Just as you feel that you're correct, they also do.

(I do admire your open mind -- I'm sad that I've lost mine in reference to politics in the United States. However, this is irreversible for me in reference to the current administration.)