Texas BBQ: African American Style and Caucasian Style?

[Taverner]

Texas DUers...tell me if I'm way off here...

But I noticed a big difference in BBQ sauce made by an African American chef and that made by a White chef. Without going into too many details, I found the caucasian stuff sweeter, and I like the African American style sauce better.

But am I way off here? I hit a Texas BBQ shack in Oakland that was African American owned, and it fit this description. And don't forget Stubbs in Austin.

Anyway...comments from BBQ lovers...

[mike_c]

1. that red stuff they pour on dead cow meat in Texas...

...isn't barbecue sauce at all. It's just not right to barbecue beef while pigs walk the earth!

[BikeWriter]

44. The 11th Commandment: Thou shalt not defame Texas Barbecue.

[yellowdogintexas]

61. AMEN to that and I actually live in Texas..but I learned to eat

barbecue in Kentucky..

The sauce must be vinegary, and HOT!!!!!

The meat must be PIG.

[VelmaD]

2. First off...

what the hell were you doin' eatin' "Texas" barbq in Oakland? :eyes:

I don't know that it's a race thing so much as a regional thing. I come from the part of Texas that is over 1/3 African-American and about 15-20% Hispanic and everybody up there pretty much eats the same way.

[Taverner]

5. that might be it

In that section of texas do they make their sauce less sweet and more spicy?

[VelmaD]

13. Both

Depends on where you go and what the person cookin' likes. Usually pretty spicy.

We've had this conversation before. I've had barbq from all over and it's ALL good. :)

[Taverner]

16. Um, there is BAD BBQ....

Besides chains, there is Honkers in San Jose.

They swear they have honest Texas BBQ, but tell me - would honest Texas BBQ involve jellied garlic? Dijon mustard BBQ sauce? Cabernet Sauvingon?

[VelmaD]

18. No, no, and HELL NO!

Some chains are not bad. But you are better off going to a red metal building with a gnarled little old man or woman in their late 60s in back doing the cookin'.

And if they don't give you a slice of white bread...run. It's not real barbq.

[Taverner]

20. So I guess Firehouse Grill in Los Angeles would be out?

They serve only lean meats (chicken breast, pork loin, turkey breast, fish) and their BBQ sauce has no sugar. They also serve you your choice of whole wheat rolls, sprouted wheat rolls, kamut bread or low-carb soy bread.

[AngryAmish]

27. I have vomited all over my keyboard

Chicken breast bbq is gross. You need a fatty, tough cut to make good bbq. That is why pork shoulder and ribs are good. Beef should never be used, but that said, brisket does stand up to the smoke process.

[Taverner]

So I assume the fact that you can order from the oxygen bar

Before your food gets there is also blasphemy of some sort ;)

[AngryAmish]

33. Get me the address

I'm burning the fucker down...

[texastoast]

54. Excusez-moi??

Apparently, you haven't tasted MY barbequed chicken breast (which, granted, must have the ribs and bones to taste just right), but it is incredibly delicious and juicy. :9

Beef brisket, beef/pork sausage, and pork ribs are the best meats, but pork shoulder???? Is that what you get that stuff called pulled pork from?

[yellowdogintexas]

63. pulled pork just means it has been pulled apart. It can be whole

hog, shoulder, or loin.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

60. Sigh....

[Scout1071]

62. Amen Velma.

A true statement indeed. I'm from KC...we know a thing or two about BBQ up here too and a slice of white bread is a must. Don't forget about those pickles either!

Also, there are two different kinds of BBQ: lunch and dinner. Lunch is a bit more casual - beef brisket on bun, burnt ends or burnt end on bun, pulled pork or some smoked turkey.

Dinner is more ribs, burnt ends, crown prime ribs, seafood, chicken.

The key to BBQ is slow cookin'. If it's cooked right, you don't need to worry too much about the sauce!

[AngryAmish]

64. Burnt ends

Again, I'm from Chicago and I'm in a Barbeque desert here. However, a burnt end sandwich is heaven.

As things go, I'm a western NC guy for pulled pork and a Memphis guy for ribs.

I gotta say, I'm not a fan of KC bbq, mostly because of the vile KC Masterpiece sauce.

[Scout1071]

66. Eating KC Masterpiece in Kansas City is like going to Red Lobster in the

New England area. Mmmm....kay?

Besides, Clorox owns the brand of sauce these days.

No self-respecting Kansas Citian would eat at KC Masterpiece.

If you get to town try Fiorella's Jack Stack, Gate's, LC's, Zarda, Arthur Bryant's, OK Joe's. If you get thru those, PM me for a few more!

[TX-RAT]

40. jellied garlic? Dijon mustard BBQ sauce? Cabernet Sauvingon?

Thats a hanging offense?

[wryter2000]

48. I'm with you

That's totally gross.

[wryter2000]

6. Them's fighting words

:)

We can do anything in Oaktown if we set our mind to it. You don't want to be dissing Oakland, now. We're the home of the Black Panther Party and the Hell's Angels.

[leftofthedial]

10. and don't forget the most indiscriminately violent group on earth

Raiders fans

[NuttyFluffers]

25. damn str8! raider nation baby!

oakland's great fun. live hard, play hard... throw car batteries at sporting events quite hard too. ;)

[wryter2000]

50. And don't forget the music.

Tower of Power!

[wryter2000]

3. Where in Oaktown?

I've never heard of a Texas barbecue place around here. I'd love to try it.

We are the home of the original Everette and Jones. I buy their sauce at a butcher shop around here. I put it on everything but ice cream.

[Skittles]

4. Stubbs trivia from Skittles

many years ago I was at Stubbs with friends and Stubbs wanted to make me a sandwich - I said I DON'T LIKE BARBEQUE and he said I WILL MAKE YOU A BARBEQUEUE SANDWICH YOU WILL LOVE. He did, I did. IT WAS EXCELLENT! As a rule I still don't care for barbeque though. :D

[wryter2000]

9. Stubbs?

Is that the same Stubbs sauce they sell in supermarkets? It has an African American man in a cowboy hat on the label. Is the supermarket sauce good? I'm always on the look-out for good sauce, especially when I can't get to the butcher's for E&J's.

[Taverner]

11. The supermarket sauce IS good

as is the restaraunt. If ever in Austin, I would have to say they do the best brisket.

It's not as sweet as your tradtional sauce, and it works well with a minimal rub.

Oh it's also good on everything including ice cream.

[wryter2000]

51. Great

I've been burned by BBQ sauce at the supermarket before. I'll try Stubbs.

[AngryAmish]

65. Try Stubbs mopping sauce

Pretty good as it goes.

[wryter2000]

70. I'll definitely look for it

I'm not sure I've seen a mopping sauce, but I'll definitely look for it. Can't wait!

[GOPisEvil]

12. The same. The African American man is Mr. Stubblefield.

It's pretty good sauce. I've used it myself.

[Taverner]

14. So when are they going to open up a Stubbs in Palo Alto, CA?

Trust me, there IS a market.

[GOPisEvil]

19. Hmmm...I wonder if they'd consider a franchise.

Mr. Stubblefield has passed away though. :(

[jobycom]

24. You'd have to get the bands to go with the franchise.

I wonder if Russell Crowe would still blay a BBQ joint? I mean, once he's out of lockup.

[Skittles]

42. that's him

he passed away some time ago. But like I said, I really don't care for barbeque sause - I like the taste of meat and fish and chicken and dislke it hidden by a load of sauce

[Modem Butterfly]

7. There's a lot of regional variances in sauce

Don't even get me started on the eastern/western North Carolina sauce debacle. People have gotten into fist fights over it up there. Actualy, honest-to-god fist fights. Southerns take their sauce SERIOUSLY, and many places offer a selection, vinegar-based, tomato based, mustard-based, etc. I've never heard that divisions are also based on racial lines, though some things that African-Americans serve at a BBQ would not be served at a Caucasian BBQ and vice-versa. But given that sauce is such a divisive issue, the smart person stays out of it altogether, and doesn't try to heat things up by bringing race into it.

[Zuni]

55. I love the North Carolina vinegar sauce

my brother can whip up a damn good Carolina BBQ sauce too

[mike_c]

58. vinegar based is the One True Sauce....

I always knew you were OK, Zuni.

[Zuni]

67. just thinking about it makes me want to drive down to Carolina

[texastoast]

8. It's all in what you like in the sauce

I don't like a sweet bbq sauce either. Actually, no sauce is required at all so long as the meat (pork, cabrito, chicken, quail, dove or beef) is cooked just right over mesquite (real wood, not that silly Kingsford stuff). Hickory and pecan wood make meat sweeter as well.

I don't think it has anything to do with whether you are black or white.

[Taverner]

22. How about Oak?

There is a place in East Bay that promises real Texan, and they use Oak in the smoker.

It doesn't show much in the meat, but it does make the restaraunt smell real good.

[texastoast]

49. That would probably be alright

My absolute favorite tree, but I'm not sure how it would barbeque. I think it is oak that imparts the vanilla tones in some white wines, and I know it's good for roasting marshmallows for S'mores.

[wryter2000]

52. Take pity on me

Where, where, where is this place?

[jobycom]

15. Never noticed that at all, but I have noticed a lot of variety in sauces

It seems to me to depend on the size of the establishment.

I lived in Elgin for five years, and of course, they have several famous BBQ joints (this was before I was vegetarian). The more touristy (and most famous) BBQ place sucked, and their sauce was like ketchup. The two that most Elginites liked best were smaller, had better cooked meat, and had stronger sauce. I think one had AA owners, and the other honkie owners. But they catered to the locals, and they didn't go for that sweet stuff.

The better of the two was bought out, and was never as good after that.

Why a vegetarian is talking about BBQ, I don't know!! Mother's Cafe has a pretty good BBQ tofu dish.

[Taverner]

17. Vegematarians can BBQ!

Portabello Mushrooms taste GOOOOOOD when cooked over mesquite.

[jobycom]

21. Yeah, but there's a difference, often overlooked, between BBQ and grilling

BBQing requires slow cooking at low, enclosed heat, in a pit if you can manage it. A lot of people grill and smear sauce on it and call it BBQ. Portabellos are usually marinated and grilled.

I wonder how a bello would fare in a real pit? Might be good.

[youspeakmylanguage]

23. ugh...

Real barbeque is pulled pork and tomato-based barbeque sauce, AKA Western NC barbeque.

Roast a big for 16-18 hours at a low temperature. Pull the meat off into bite-sized chunks, then chop into semi-fine pieces. NCBBQ is NEVER sliced. Serve on a bun with slaw, beans and hushpuppies.

Accept no substitute and leave the barbeque sauce OFF of your steak. The only things that belong on top of steak are blue cheese or A1.

And yes, I'm from North Carolina. We have the best barbeque.

Flame me all you want. I've been kicked a few times today by DU posters, so it won't matter if I'm kicked a few more.

[Taverner]

26. Silly rabbit, don't you know England has the best BBQ

As well as the spiciest food!

[youspeakmylanguage]

29. England?!?!?!?

I've been there, to London specifically, and all I remember was good smoked salmon, a decent hotdog, and a HORRIBLE hamburger.

Where in England can you find barbeque? The pork variety?

[Taverner]

31. Oh england INVENTED bbq...

It's the open plains there, the mesquite that grows everywhere and the strong cowboy tradition there.

When the first settlers arrived in England, they said to each other "Say ol' chap...let's take that cow over there and smoke him over a grill for a few hours. Then let's stew it for another 10 days so any flavor we added is removed."

:sarcasm:

[youspeakmylanguage]

32. LOL, you got me...

...dick.

:spank:

[youspeakmylanguage]

34. duplicate.

[jobycom]

37. Only, the settlers said it

in Jute, eh? :-)

[jobycom]

28. Flaming for a BBQ post?

Perfect!!

Pulled pork ain't BBQ, it's just old, dead pig. Though you got the process right--BBQ should be cooked long and low.

At least y'all eat grits, so NC cuisine isn't a total waste. And pecan pie, I hope.

:-)

(It's a friendly flame, I hope you realize! I love NC.)

[youspeakmylanguage]

30. FLAME ON!!!

Just kidding. I'm not really looking for a fight, but I've had some unpleasant run-ins on other threads today and I'm sort of expecting to scrap with someone no matter what I post.

And how is Texas basted beef (not sure if I can call it barbeque on second though) anything but old, dead cow?

[jobycom]

36. If it ain't in Texas, it's just BBQ wannabee.

No matter what poor beast winds up in the pit.

:hi:

(We've all had days like that, YSML. Hang in there!)

[BikeWriter]

47. You tell 'em!

[DinahMoeHum]

35. There ARE various styles of Texas BBQ, according to Robb Walsh

who has a great book out on the subject:

Link:
http://www.robbwalsh.com/01cookbooks/1legends.shtml

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811829618/qid=1119899245/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/002-7448497-3957608


There is BBQ from East Texas, which is primarily African-American, includes brisket though their BBQ is mostly pork/ribs and beef sausage links and often includes side dishes identified as Southern. And did I forget sauces? Some use sauce and some don't.

There is BBQ from German/Bohemian Texas, the central area (aka the Hill Country), mostly in grocery stores, butcher shops and takeout. They specialize in smoked sausage and meats WITHOUT sauce. An additional chapter in Robb Walsh's book tells the story of the itinerant cotton pickers of the past who took their grab-and-go meals in such establishments.

There is "cowboy-Western" style BBQ, the old method of pit-roasting and smoking from a hole in the ground. Some methods here include smoking AND grilling.

And there is Mexican-Texas style, mostly in southern/border Texas. A chapter is devoted to barbacoa (cow heads) style of BBQ.

:9:9:9

In short, there is no one method of Texas BBQ. Your BBQ shack in Oakland probably uses the East Texas/Southern style.

:9:9:9

[jobycom]

39. Buzzkill!

Great post, thanks. Now can we get back to our petty, uninformed squabble? :-)

Sausage could be a whole 'nother thread, though.

[Bridget Burke]

69. Here's an article by Robb Walsh on racial aspects of Barbecue mythology

www.houstonpress.com/issues/2003-05-01/news/feature.html

It probably ended up as a chapter in his book. Did he include cabrito in his Mexican-American chapter?

While there are various styles of barbecue in Texas, most of them DO NOT depend on the sauce. The smoky flavor is cooked into the meat (perhaps with a rub, sometimes just from the wood) & the sauce is a condiment. Along with white bread, pickles & onion slices--or flour tortillas, guacamole & pico de gallo.

Other parts of the country have their own barbecue traditions.

If you really want to get controversial, let's discuss Mexican food. Robb Walsh has a book about that, too.

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767914880/qid=1119958126/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2114536-7332612?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Get a preview in his 6-part history of Tex Mex. There's more to it than you might think. When Rick Bayliss visited Houston, he told Walsh that he'd wanted to include a chapter on Tex Mex in one of his cookbooks. The editors nixed it.

www.houstonpress.com/special/texmex.html

[maveric]

38. African American BBQ rules! There are these old dudes in San Diego

that have these drum smoker's who park them in store parking lots all over the area. They call themselves "Smokin Joes", and cook and sell BBQ pork and chicken, smoked to perfection.
You can get a huge BBQ pors sandwich with delicious sauce for about 3 bucks. And you can smell it for blocks.
Its awesome!

[texas1928]

41. I really do not care for sweet BBQ sauce.

It has to be spicy. I love it hot. I make my sauce and marinades HOT

[warrens]

43. Vinegar is your friend

That's Stubbs' secret. It's piquant. Their steak marinade is so good I fly home with bottles of it in my suitcase.

[BikeWriter]

59. I use vinegar, lemon juice, lemon peel, and sugar in my sauce....

You get that sweet and sour thing going. My sauce will make your mouth water when you smell it. :)

[jandrok]

45. REAL Tejas barbecue don't NEED no sauce, man!

Sauce just ruins the flavor. Ya eat it on butcher paper, with yer fingers. Lotsa onions and beans for sides. THAT's how it's done, not with some kinda SAUCE!

[texastoast]

56. Plus pickles, jalapenos and

White bread. It's the only thing I eat real old timey sliced white bread with. Preferably Mrs. Baird's. And beer. It's great with cold Mexican beer.

Man, now I gotta eat it tonight!

[jandrok]

57. True enough. A cold Tecate goes well with some ribs and...

...sausage and briskit. You're also spot on about the white bread. Gotta soak up all that grease with something.

MMMMMMMMMM-MMMMMMM gooooooooooooood!

[texas1928]

46. Though if you cook it right and use the right rub.

You really don't need sauce.


One question:

Have you ever had the White BBQ sauce they serve in Alabama or Mississippi, I can not remember which.

[Shell Beau]

71. I've seen it here in MS, but I am scared to try it. It just doesn't look

right! :shrug:

[Shell Beau]

53. I don't know! Every sauce I eat tastes different!

[Maddy McCall]

68. Best barbecue I ever had was at a Juneteenth celebration in Tatum, TX

You are right.